at last someone here who has realized that children s allowance is NOT JUST PAID TO THOSE ON WELFARE it is paid to ALL parents irrespective of financial income. yet again the usual b/s is banded about that everyone in receipt of s/w is either a drunkard a druggie or a ner do well layabout, when the truth of the matter is most people on welfare are decent hard working people who have been made jobless due to inept government and banking system that has destroyed this country, iif you want to vent your anger at anyone its the people who have caused this mess that you should have a go at NOT those who are victims of it.

“when the truth of the matter is most people on welfare are decent hard working people” Sorry eric but i had to laugh at that joke ..
1. How would u know most people ?? Severe Generalization !!
2. As an ex Barman – I could have said the opposite, bar flies sucking pints down 7 days a week, seemingly having an endless supply of cash for booze and Fags – Absolutely Sickening to the genuine people that need welfare really.
The gripes about go after the top down – ?? i mean really ??
I say go after everyone !

its no joke rob its true most of the people in this country who are on welfare/dole are there because they have lost their jobs, not by choice, most of them had good jobs and a decent standard of living and worked bloody hard to keep it, i think it is yourself that is guilty of ‘severe generalization ‘ along with a few others on here who assume that people on welfare live in the pub or on the drink, yes there are a few that do spend their time and money on the drink, but there are also plenty of people in cushy well protected jobs who take a ‘sickie’ when the mood hits them, because they feel ‘entitled ‘ to. and spend their sick day in the alehouse, how do i know? because i have also worked for over 25 yrs in the pub industry . as for’ going after those at the top’ these are the ones responsible for the mess we are in, so surly they should take the hit? the lack of regulation of the banking industry led to the crisis, along with the big bonuses and pensions and the developers brown envelopes, so why should it always be the ordinary man that takes the cuts?

Eleen – Perhaps read the several references to how most people don’t misspend welfare, and how life on welfare is not a walk in a rose garden?

I did, and I’m happy that you didn’t paint everyone with the same brush, fair play.

What’s insulting is the idea you’ve come up with that we need to have a special card and have to have the state decide what we’re all allowed to spend our money on. I’d feel like a child. I feel like a child already with so many people trying to decide the best way I should act/grovel/work for my money.

Well no ones asking the government to stop you buying white bread and change to brown – There asking to stop buy alcohol

Not much to ask is it ?? ?

No, Rob. He’s proposing a system that would give the state complete control over how I spend my money. That’s the issue. Not what they choose to stop me buying. It’s the principle of the thing. You can’t legitimately stop people buying alcohol without resorting to drastic measures like this one because there’s no real way to police it.

What are they going to do? Make it a requirement that people have to show proof that they’re employed in shops or else they can’t be sold alcohol, cigarettes etc?

Why would we allow people on social welfare to be suddenly stripped of their dignity in this way?

The user gets a debit or credit or credit type card. There aren’t really restrictions to the moneys intended use. Can you point some out, genuinely.

James I can think of plenty of places that would not be able to accept debit cards, local schools, private landlords, private childminders, the child themselves. The money is not and should not be restricted to businesses which can accept debit cards.

“Broken, poor, dispirited people, depressed people fall back on stimulants to block out the misery of their ‘private sufference’ – deal with that and maybe you’ll break the cycle.”

Well said.

@Andrew, Fair points raised.
I do agree that there needs to be some discussion on the welfare system, but to blame welfare claimants for the Centra debacle is tagging everyone to any ridiculous advertisement and too lump all people in welfare with those who have possible addictions.

Its akin to priests all being tarred as sex abusers when we actually know that majority are not. If it does start a proper debate then maybe this is one avenue to explore, but I have a fundamental problem with the article, so maybe an addition to this article would have been to propose proper mechanisms to address this, which it doesnt. But fair play Andrew, like your passion.

Places that don’t take card ate in the minority, this has nothing to do with supporting big business, it also minimizes elements of the black economy thus supporting jobs. Your downside isn’t worth the positives out achieves.

It depends on what you think the extent of the problem is. There are no statistics as this isn’t monitored at all. I would hope that people who starve their children and drink the benefits are a tiny tiny minority of parents. I don’t think that everyone else, like responsible parents, and small indiginous businesses, should suffer for that minorities misbehaviour.

It is a sledgehammer approach. imagine the cost in setting this up. Databses of retailers. Mechanisms for payment. Issuing these cards. Plus the invasion of privacy issues. Everything I buy in is now on file in a government office? No thanks

You are also writing off everyone that doesn’t take a card as the black economy. This is simply not true. When raising a child the cost profile changes throughout their life. You may be paying a creche initially. I don’t know any creche that takes card, but they are all HSE registered and pay their taxes. Then you go to school and need to give the school money for a collection for a leaking roof, or a school trip. And you want to buy some secondhand books for your child off a parent with children a year ahead to save buying new ones. The child gets older and maybe you want to give them some pocket money to give them some financial experience in how to save and buy things. All of these require cash, and are for the child.
.

Even if it was implemented, the chances are that the parents that do this are also entitled to some other benefits that are received in cash. Or they would have the ability to trade their debit card with other people for cash. So it wouldn’t even work to address the original issue in the first place.

So, overall, nice idea, and I see it is coming from good intentions, but it is just impractical.

Yeah, it’s very impractical, poorly thought out and therefore has the potential to do more harm than good. Besides, welfare and child benefit are separate things. Aaron should have done a bit more thinking with this one.

Not so hot on the idea of giving people even less control over their lives either. If we have a problem with people abusing the system (and the number isn’t as big as everyone thinks), why does everyone else have to suffer too in order to stop them? Surely we can come up with better ways to deal with this problem.

Well said!

@Donal
I completely concur with your sentiments and you put your side very well. The Author or maybe as a by product, has produced a piece that has got people posting and thinking. The editor allows such topics and articles and rightly so. Im more concerned at how people respond as we often see the “not so nice bits” of people personalities and morals coming out.
What you have acheived and overcome must be applauded and fair play to you. Our anger is well placed in terms of how society view / treat / dismiss those experiencing difficulties. Unfortunately we need a proper outlet to inform policy makers as I dont think Secretary General of the Dept of Social Protection would be reading this.
Here’s hoping you get a position that deserves your intellect!!!!!

wouldn’t it be easier to cap benefits to say 15k a year or treat it like wages and tax it ,if you earn 20k you pay tax if you get it from social n housing you dont?

Also, when someone on SW has a baby, they receive money to buy the pram, cot, car seat, steriliser etc and this is all fact! When we had our last child, I had lost my job and we were really struggling on the single income. i bought my pram etc on Rollercoaster.ie, a site where people sell their baby products second hand. That’s what SW recipients should have to do, not get the money for new ones!!

That is my difficulty with the welfare system too Andrea. I see too many students coming to school looking bedraggled and uncared for without their books even though an allowance has been given to their parents. In some cases that allowance is not big enough. So. Scrap that. Give the uniform and the books instead. And shoes. Then the money goes to where it should. Children’s allowance is not a social welfare payment so that is not a welfare issue. But people exploiting the system is an issue. I cannot understand how questions are not asked of those who fund an extravagant lifestyle on barely an existable amount. Throw those people out of the system and there will be more available for those in genuine need – and there are plenty of those sadly.
While the article was not correct in its information regarding children’s allowance being a welfare payment it has raised interesting comments here.

Its deplorable that working people have to scrimp and save and make do with second hand while those who bleed the system all their lives get everything handed to them no questions asked from the cradle to the grave, This type of entitlement mentality needs to be stamped out! We’re borrowing with heavy interest to fund excessive un-capped welfare payments, its about time some people in this country were given a reality check!

@Andrea
there is no mechanism in the welfare system to pay the complete bill for gas / esb etc. Some may get help i.e. a contribution from the Community Welfare but it is only this a contribution and not complete payment. In the North West the payments for communion outfits were lowest in the state and the amount of people who applied and were turned down reached 70 odd percent. Rent supplement in my region is considerably lower than in other areas of Ireland and the supplement has been reduced 4 times since this Government took office with the likely outcome of it being abolished complete (according to senior welfare officials). I agree with the bulk of your message, however the article above does little to enhance the debate on the real problem.

I assume that was meant for me. I am not talking about people who are struggling on basic welfare payments but you are the one who is deluded if you think there are NO people living a very comfortable life on Welfare because they know how to milk the system for every penny they can. I’m sure there must be a way for people to find out the breakdown of the money spent by the department. Nothing I said is untrue, look into it and prepare to be amazed. There are currently 440,000 people on the live register approx. Let’s say for calculation, they all get €200 (some get more, some get a lot less). Multiply that by the weeks in the year and see what you get. Then subtract that from the yearly Welfare bill and see what is left. What is the other money going on so?

Hey billlionares who pay no tax are robbing us blind but poor people are SHOCK HORROR drinking alcohol to drown their sorrows. Lets blame the latter for our problems and not the former.
I love it when little D4 Roish heads who’ve never worked a day in their life have all the answers for us working and the poor.
I wonder why isn’t anyone suggesting that bankers, builders and speculators who’ve destroyed the economy be made to go on the wagon and have to give their fingerprints, their right eye and 20 questions everytime they get 1 billion (like the 1 billion every quarter that goes to Anglo Irish) from us working and poor slobs.

Hey Andrea here’s some stats to worry your little head about.
-Jack Ronan and Richard Barrett owe NAMA €2 billion and yet get millions in rent from the Irish state.
-Bernard McNamara owes billions yet gets a salary for his “specialist” business expertise of €200k.
-One billion went to an unsecured bondholder in Anglo Irish Bank a week ago.
-the top %5 richest people have €220 billion
-450k people are on the live register because that %5 are sitting on their wealth (that us working people created in the first place) and capital investment has dropped by 70% in the last 4 years.

@Chris, wealthy people are generally wealthy because they worked hard all of their life to get there, they deserve their wealth, you can’t turn around and say, ‘You worked hard, now give us all your money’, less of the childish Marxist drivel (i’m a Marxist by the way)

wealthy people are not generally any more hard working than most other people. There are so many more factors to consider. Like, how some jobs pay more than others, how some people have more support from their wealthy family which helps them get into better schools and get them the high paying jobs.

It’s a manufactured decision that some professions and jobs have a higher standing in society than others. That for example, working hard every day to raise a family (therefore contributing greatly to society) has no monetary value and therefore no real value at all. Working hard – you can work hard all day every day cleaning hotels and get nothing for it. Others work hard all day and get lots for it.

Wealth is not all down to working hard, or even contributing to society. So to say they deserve their wealth is pretty problematic.

Why is it that a “challenging” opinion piece about money grubbing opportunism in the PRIVATE sector, manages to attack the poor?

@Seamus
The way it is loosely framed. What I read in comments is that no-one has attacked the validity of the Private sector to make money, yet some seem to be of the opinion to question how the Social Protection payments are spent. Not merely by saying in some cases that “they get too much” but also “they should only be allowed to spend it on certain items”.

So for argument sake You Work and get your Pay, then are told how you can spend it and maybe we post an article that suggests that it not the pay you got but what you spend it on is a serious problem. Ahemmm maybe you might just say “go bog off” or maybe you would say “Yeah thanks for Helping Me” (NOTTT)
If it focused on the Centra Add then ok, or simply on Welfare then ok, but to mingle the two and suggest that Centra has no real fault, that the welfare created this is INCORRECT.

Challenging is one thing, commenting back with some experience based information is another.
Hope this help!…..

The dole/job seekers benefit itself isn’t too generous, but when combined with the rest of the allowances it becomes excessive.

David correct me if i am wrong but i assume you are neither on benefit or the minimum wage.

Aidan hit the nail on the head there. It’s the combinations of welfare that needs to be looked at, not the rate. I have to laugh every time I hear someone saying that €186 a week to pay for everything you need on a weekly basis in Ireland in 2012 is too generous. Maybe try it sometime.

Try living on around €188 when you have to pay mortgage, house insurance, life assurance (due to mortgage), electricity, oil, phone, internet, TV licence, travel costs, food, clothes and the list goes on.

Interesting that a discussion on children’s allowance becomes another opportunity to bash people who are on social welfare. As if the loss of structure, social contact, morale and self-esteem of not having a job is not enough.

And yes, money is being wasted. It is clear from the article above. No means testing of children’s allowance and money been spent inappropriately. But sometimes the people with the purse strings don’t care about the wastage of certain money. Towards the end of last year a friend of mine pointed out a flaw in the medical card drug scheme, where money was been wasted, and no one has get back to her or done anything about it.

Please do not tarnish all people with the same brush. Some people are struggling. Life without a job can get pretty miserable. But there is a need for HOPE and SUPPORT. And a community spirit. When I mean support, I mean support in helping people become a productive member of society. Without support people will fall through the cracks and end up ‘self-medicating’ with alcohol etc Or wasting their life away gambling addictions or with other distractions.

@ Robin. And if the welfare system in general wasn’t so generous there would be more money to go around for people like you. It’s the people that make social welfare their career with free houses, medical and everything else that are sucking the money out of the system. They concentrate in certain areas of cities in general and the rot gets passed down through generations.

It’s times like this I actually feel ill “being in business”. What is it with people who run businesses that they think they have the life experience and answers for everything. It drives me nuts. Please take it from another “business man” that I do not like to see social welfare recipients being bashed and can only imagine the mental struggle most of these ppl go through on a daily basis without getting some trolls and business “experts” telling them that 186euro is too much to provide for themselves. We all know corruption exists but it’s minimal so all this crap the business community peddle is self serving society loathing horse manure!

And to quote Jim Daly from further down the comments on this page: “Child Benefit is not a welfare payment. It is a universal payment to all children of the State”.

There has to be a better way of administering this payment so that it reaches the children who need it eg healthy meals in schools during school term or reasonably priced, quality childcare for working mothers. They are just suggestions.

David

Will you ever stop talking crap Nobody gets a free house. You have to pay rent to the Council every week and if you dont keep up in rent payments you will be out on the streets. THAT IS NOT A FREE HOUSE.

@ John. Ya rent of 70 euro a house. WOW. And all repairs, maintenance, etc. is free……..

@Diarmuid Twomey: Absolutely right on! For my sins I earn my living “in business” too. Why is it all the self-appointed spokesmen for the business community are such life experience-free rightist nuts?

Is there anyway to persuade the journal to take this guy off? His special pleadings have no logic, they are merely provocative,mans they are ill written. Toxic combination.

Eh? ‘mans’? Should be ‘and’.

In 2008 there where 90’000 people unemployed.after the bang that jumped to 450’000 plus another 100’000 that has left the country. So to suggest that these people are “sucking” your money out of your pocket only shows how easily you can be lead by the real con artists, your government and their banking buddies.it not the welfare system that is robbing you and to suggest that it is somehow both the cause and the cure is ridiculous.shame on the journal for printing this Shit and adding to an already very sensitive issue.we get enough of this from RTE and the government.there are no jobs in this country.Michael Taft suggested that for every 1 job there are 50 people.so if people can’t get work and you don’t want to help them out,well why don’t we take them all and gas them!! And the vast majority on the dole paid RRSI.so it not your money their takin,its their’s as they have paid into this social insurance policy in case Shit happens.well Shit happened so get over it.

For some mindsets welfare will always be too generous. The mindset is fed by ignorance, prejudice and all the nasty characteristics of human existence. Indeed it reminds me of a quote from Charlotte Bronte. “Prejudices, it is well known, are most difficult to eradicate from the heart whose soil has never been loosened or fertilised by education: they grow there, firm as weeds among stones.”

Narrow minds will always be more vocal as they are not possessed of the ability to examine issues using variables that contradict their opinion which has already been set in concrete. Thankfully today the goodness in humanity prevails over the darkness proffered by the empty and ignorant minds so evident here.

try being self-employed and getting NOTHING from the state. I’d give my right arm for 180 quid a week. believe me.

I agree with Karl Marcks, especially in relation to the writer of this ‘article’.
I really wish the Journal would stop publishing his right wing & odious claptrap, and i am at a loss as to why he feels he is an expert on what Ireland needs to do. It makes me wonder about The Journal’s agenda in allowing him a soapbox on a regular basis.
This does not mean to say that i do not believe in reform of the welfare system. I believe in the system, but i also believe it should benefit most those who need it most.

I wonder from some of these comments if you took the time to read the article before launching torpedoes?

I think I repeated two or three (or more) times that the majority of people spend their welfare above reproach.

I also mentioned, near the end, that those who blather on about life on welfare are patently wrong.

RTFA.

Of course Charles, that is all just your opinion.

@Aaron RTFA is a bit strong. I personally was initially responding to the comment “The welfare system in this country is simply away too generous. When we have one of the highest minimum wages in the world and you are still better off on welfare there is something seriously wrong with the system”, hence I am in the Reply section. How on earth could I be better off on welfare? over 4 years ago I had a good job and a good salary.

@aaron as was I too! Rtfc perhaps?

@Aaron, maybe you should have titled your opinion piece a little better if you didn’t want this reaction. “Column: Centra’s gaffe isn’t the real problem here – our welfare system is”. The Centra gaffe concerned children’s allowance, which is a benefit given to all parents of children in this state. I have read the article. The piece ended up being yet another rabble rousing divisive article giving the opportunity to bash welfare recipients.
I completely agree that child benefit should be spent on the child by the way, I just found this article objectionable from its perspective. I can only presume the writer does not have any children or does not have to depend on this allowance. Glasshouses etc.
One further point, people in receipt of welfare have paid into the system themselves until they have been unlucky enough to lose their jobs, the “my tax money and where it being spent” angle is quite patronising to these people to say the least.
On a side note, as a businessman, this is not entirely good PR for prospective or existing customers of which I was one. I’m sure where your customers cash comes from isn’t an issue when it comes to your sales.

Sick and tired of the lamentable whining of the unemployed. Benefits/assistance are too generous, I know, I was on benefits for 12 months in 2010/2011. As for the argument that there are 50 candidates for every job, This may be true but why are there also help wanted posters in restaurant windows all over Dublin. And as for the lady who says that she has to pay her mortgage out of her unemployment assistance, you should be on an interest only mortgage which would be fully covered by welfare. Why the he’ll am I helping you to pay off the capital on your house? And you forgot to list your broadband/smartphone bill in your list of expenses. There are not enough jobs for everyone but there are jobs. Perhaps you are too well educated to clean toilets.

@Michael I couldn’t even be bothered responding to your inaccurate information. I recently heard that 247 people applied for a temporary position. I obviously know that banks allow temporary periods of interest only and moritoriums. And even restructuring. Next thing you will be telling people who are out of work, sometimes through no fault of their own, that they shouldn’t have a phone or access to the internet. I love the way people throw the “too well educated” or over qualified line in too, and make assumptions about others.

Yes Robin, you are correct. Unemployed people should not have broadband if they use it to post laments about how they have to scrimp and save to afford it. Broadband is a luxury not a necessity. Every town in Ireland has an internet cafe.

@David. You are right. But at least it is not an opinion formed using the narrow of narrowest minds.

Well for you with your top paid job? I laugh at how the likes of you cast stones at people on welfare, you obviously haven’t been on welfare and tried to survive with kids and have the worry of bills rent and food ect, so don’t write something you know nothing about!

Of course, it should be conscientiously pointed out that some wealthy people do put their publicly funded tax breaks to good use.

I was unemployed for years from the age of 20 to 23. Loved it. Best years of my life. It’s not the end of the world if you don’t work. You have so much free time to spend with friends and family. As long as you’re not greedy and want a lot off stuff and holidays abroad, you can live quite happily. I did it for years. :-)

@Rommel, I have to say, there are times when I (without fail, weekly) see some of my neighbours walking up the road hammered with a can in their hand while i’m heading to the bus stop on a Monday morning to work, that I wouldn’t mind swapping with them, and can’t help wondering, ‘Am I only going into work for 40 hours this week so these guys can get p*ssed every day of the week?’ Just saying, that’s MY reality

Narrow way to see it. Your taxes are going into a lot more than that, and the number of people abusing the welfare system is not as big as people always make it out to be. That’s one of the easiest ways to divide people, by exaggerating the figures and turning everyone against unemployed people so that there won’t be too much complaint if welfare is cut.

It’s frustrating to see people obviously abusing the system, but then we don’t know too much about their lives or what they’re going through. It’s just as bad to pass judgement on people as it is to be drunk on a monday morning.

I think the whole country is terrible at dealing with people who abuse the system – top to bottom. But the minuscule amount of people abusing the social welfare system is a drop in the ocean compared to other abuses that seem to continue and drain the country dry.

Speaking of narrow, I don’t think it’s a small, insignificant amount of people, I think it’s sizeable, I see plenty of examples, you don’t know what people who go to work are going through either so your point is invalid, only people who are unemployed have had a tough time? I’m not passing judgement, for me to do that I would have to be in an ivory tower somewhere far detached from what’s going on, I’m just relaying what I see on a daily basis, sorry it doesn’t sit well with your own personal views

I’m not trying to take sides here. But your anecdotal evidence – no matter how true – isn’t any way to make a judgement call on this issue. The media and government are doing a damn good job of hyping the figures of welfare fraud and making everybody mad over it, therefore justifying their budget cuts etc.

Here’s something to consider:

“We have had television investigations, newspaper headlines, attention-seeking politicians all claiming massive fraud. But out of a budget of nearly €20 billion, the Department of Social Protection has found only €25 million in fraudulent payments – or about 0.1 percent of the entire budget. So where did this famous ‘€600 million’ in fraud come from? And why is the real level of fraud so much lower?”

“First, the €600 million figure is not the actual amount of fraud in the social protection system. It is what is known as a ‘control saving’ according to the Deputy Secretary General and the Minister of the Department:

‘Control savings are not actual moneys recovered by the Department . . . ‘ (Deupty Secretary-General)
‘Control savings are not actual monies recovered by the Department . . ‘ (Minister)

What are control savings?

‘This figure is the value of the control activity in the Department and if this work did not take place there would, over time, be a similar increase in total social welfare expenditure.’

In other words, if there were no controls or inspections, there would be over time an estimated €600 million in over-payments. This is like the Gardai estimating the number of murders that might take place over time if there were no police force. Or the Revenue claiming the estimated level of tax fraud if there were no audits and checks.”
(http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2011/11/this-claim-is-getting-tiresome-minister-of-state-fergus-odowd-has-said-that-the-government-believes-it-can-save-600m.html)

There’s a lot more to consider too, if you want to delve into the facts of the matter. Either way, all of us sh*ting on about welfare fraud and lazy bums are wasting our energy. There are, as has been pointed out before, bigger fish to fry.

Any mini supermarket with a Post Office in it, welfare day, 11am, there’s your proof

Gas. Sorry but I feel a lot of the ‘discussion’ here could end with that thought…public service workers, social welfare recipients stick on yer red nose honk honk … Unclean unclean

I disagree with your opening. (I know you are trying to be nice!) Almost every piece written by Arron McKenna on this website is based on pure unadulterated prejudice. Not one single article of his has been written with the benefit of erudition nor is erudition evident from his qualifications or bio. The only value to society of these types of articles is that it affords us an insight in to the mind of the unthinking masses.

Jerry where are the kids when the parents are at the Karaoke?just wondering.

Norman , Normally with the Dad Gran-dad or older brothers and sisters

I agree David it’s a pretty poorly shaped piece which has elicited a deluge of unsupported allegations and comments.

@Bert, you sound like you’re at one of those cocktail parties, I don’t know if you live in a deprived area of the city centre, but there’s evidence everywhere, impossible to escape, people on the buses with buggies in the early afternoon struggling to manage with their 10 shopping bags (after they’ve got on with their free travel pass), packed outside the local pub smoking EVERY day of the week and all day Saturday and Sunday, when you’re woken up at 4am most Sunday mornings by alcohol-induced screaming and domestics, it’s not about being ignorant, it’s about being p*ssed off and tired

Nice you can so easily judge what’s going on in everybody’s lives like that.

Eleen it comes from observing human behaviour over a lot of years.

‘You re-acted ha ha’. More drivel.

Sorry Bert! My other comment was directed to You Reacted Ha Ha!

I agree with you :)

Eleen. Realised that later. I was reading a piece on the web last night about the nature of Irish social psychology. The writer raised the question thus,
‘What makes it possible for a Christian people to dehumanize, loathe, and abuse their own kind merely because they are poor? How can these gentle Catholics be so filled with malice based exclusively on social rank?
This malice is amply borne out in some of the posts in this thread.
‘

Bert, you are so enlightened, how could I be such a fool, I renounce everything I said, I look forward to hearing of more articles you read online that reinforce your belief about how great you are, insecure much?

@You reacted ha ha. You’re too kind. I’d say though that insecurity is more your area of expertise.

Ditto old bean

Bert, I know what you mean, it’s crazy. I think the reasons for such hatred stem from a deep insecurity and bitterness. Insecurity because being poor or less fortunate is a much closer reality for most people than they’d like to think, and bitterness because life is sh*t and hard work so even the idea that some people get it easy (no matter how untrue that is) just makes people angry.

And as a nation, we really haven’t been very lucky, or very wealthy. The best way to rise above is to define yourself as better than the rest. So we’re better than those alcoholic welfare rats, we have standards, we don’t wear pyjamas to the shops because we’re not lazy filth, etc. But we’re all in the sh*t together right now, one way or another. Some are more fortunate than others, but none of us are really to blame for anything that’s going on right now. If we’d only accept that and work together, maybe we’d get somewhere.

Those mothers and their kids fathers probably pay massive tax and PRSI to the state so why shouldnt they get something back for their contributions?

And you can provide proof of this?

I can Bert! I can indeed! They are in touch by email still and his post still goes to their address! He gets her to open it for him. Would you like me to ask her to post it to you for the proof you need?

Apparently he laughs at the ‘stupid Irish’ who paid his rent, gave him dole while he worked in a restaurant, he translated documents for the gardai, he ran up credit card and phone debts, got himself a passport and is now over in germany studying while still getting paid by the irish taxpayer! What a joke!

Sorry Bert, one more thing! This guy was an asylum seeker from Iran yet went home to Iran to visit family twice a year! Hardly something a person would do if they were afraid for their life!

Well post the proof with the documentation.

Sounds like a ‘I know somebody who knows somebody’ story which is treated as truth because no proof is presented. Did you hear this at the golf club or in your local watering hole?

Donal,
For any fair debate or awareness creation we need all to be included, then we need those directly affected by whatever it may be to be at the actual table forming policy. There is an assumption that those on welfare whether it be full payment or part payment cant advocate a common sense opinion. The problem with articles like the one that has enthused some is that it is based on, well thats the point we dont know what it is based upon. Suffice to say that the author believes that he is a Campaigner and actively engaged in his community,but it strikes at the heart of his piece when he assumes or throws out unclarified or unfounded “bar talk opinion”.

If we were to see articles about those in high paid jobs and their exploits it wouldn’t generate many comments as from a purely news it flops. When did you last see the exploits of the rich or moderately rich be investigated on RTE news or Primetime ??

I dont think you are a martyr, but I do think your opinion carried more sense than that of the Author. If i could suggest that you put your story of what the REALITY is in type and send it to thejournal.ie then opinion is backed up by FACTUAL and real life stories. Consider this as its only when real stories from people experiencing the real affects of the system that can INFORM and make AWARE to the misinformed society that we live in, NEEDS.
It shouldn’t be up to us to make Government and wider society aware of the realities, but some times its the only mechanism available to challenge attitudes!!!

Too often we have so called experts on shows like Frontline – Vincent Browne commenting on what its like to experience poverty / social exclusion etc, yet we dont see those who have direct “relevance” have the same opportunity.

Fundamentally we need to enhance the stance of those disenfranchised and place those experiencing these issues at the heart of our nations policy making.

Very good article, it has to be said!!!

Too lazy to just do the calculation I see…..

there’s no JOBS……

There are interviews you have to go to to prove you’ve been looking for work. You’re required to sign up to fas. They could have more regular interviews to make sure people aren’t messing around but I think that’s as far as it needs to go.

10,000+ jobs listed here Andrew! If people we’re given a time limit to be off welfare they wouldn’t be long finding work. The social welfare system is to comfortable for many, would be amazing to see how fast unemployment would fall if welfare recipients we’re told – You’re benefits will cease after June 2013

http://irishjobs.ie/ShowResults.aspx?Recruiter=Both&Category=&Location=&Keywords=Any+Extra+Keywords%3F&x=71&y=12

@John F
10,000 jobs and nearly 500,000 unemployed and no figures for those “underemployed” ok lets see. Some of the positions advertised on this site are “forever” roll overs. Meaning that some employers keep the add alive even when the have filled the position in case someone better comes along, plus the fee is considerable reduced if you take a long term advert as opposed to a new one each time.
Break down the actual live jobs and you can also see that one advert covers many regions, i.e. looking for Bank Manager in Dublin / Kildare / Meath so this 1 job will be show as 3 as they will be advertised in all three regions and not just Dublin.

If this is your answer to address the unemployment system, well thanks for your effort (ahemm)

Thank you for that informative reply Alan about how IrishJobs.ie listings work. My response if you read all the comments was to Andrew who mentioned that ‘There’s no JOBS!’ I beg to disagree. A lot of people on welfare delay seeking welfare or wait for the ‘right’ job because they can, There is no time limit to get off benefits, or a date set at which after benefits will be cut. If you cant find job to suit you here re-skill or go overseas. I commute to the continent and beyond for my job, I could very easily have taken the ‘no jobs’ mentality and stayed on welfare!

The only reason there isn’t civil unrest in Ireland like there is in Spain or Greece is because we actually have a decent welfare system. There are not enough jobs to go around, and whatever is there right now for many are part-time or temp jobs, resulting in people needing welfare supplements on top of their wage.

If there’s going to be a time-limit, start battening down the hatches because things would kick off in no time.

@John F
I appreciate your point, there are few jobs that can be accessed by the masses. I also applaud you and you willingness to travel for your employment. I do feel thats its a sincere pity that you must leave to find employment, but you must also appreciate that not everyone can travel for work as there are many reasons why some cant up and leave to get employment forgetting the obvious barriers.
I wish you well in your endevours, but again Im more concerned with the “no jobs mentality” as well for this is often the real case for some. Re-skilling is an option (leaving costs aside) much of the focus is placed on skills that wont get work here moreover placing people ready for moving away “educate to leave” scenario.

As with any article / column there comes some modicum of responsibility. If as we suspect that this is an OPINION then I accept this, but it must also be allowable to analyse the piece if I or other feel that the sentiment is incorrect, otherwise why publish it.
If he is a businessman and columnist then he can stand over his claims as evident or statements that were/are factual/unfactual. I accept that provoking a debate is no bad thing, but I have issues with how the debate is framed in its initial stage as what should be a serious issue falls in to a slagging match as a consequence of the article / column / piece / opinion / published typescript whatever you wish to call it.
Create a debate that asks questions that cover a broader sphere rather that simply target a section of the community that are experiencing difficulty and in many instances have little means to lobby for them selves.

If Aaron wanted to get a debate of sorts going then he succeeded, but I wouldn’t class this as a success.

I don’t know why I feel the need to defend someone I don’t know but I think the debate is fairly wide from the outset “Centra’s gaffe isn’t the real problem here – our welfare system is”. He doesn’t say “Centra’s gaffe isn’t the real problem here – our welfare system recipients are”. I don’t see how the piece targets “a section of the community that are experiencing difficulty and in many instances have little means to lobby for them selves”. I read thejournal.ie all the time, particularly the “columns”. I have in the past been irate with some of them sometimes, but for the most part they are provocative enough to foster a debate even if I am totally averse to the opinion of the writer, and this, unlike debate in a newspaper is an open forum where everyone and anyone can share their experience or opinion.

@pdrg
The point Im not making too well is if I say that all “non nationals” should be evicted to save the state money, this can be viewed in so many different perspectives that the focus of the original “provocative” debate would / might be lost. I read thejournal.ie frequently as well and as a forum for debate it offers an outlet for expression which is positive in itself. However when it “PERTAINS” to subjectively include a section of the population that have little means of redress then i do have a concern.
If the piece had a problem with Welfare candidates or Centra then there wasn’t much need to include both as part of the piece. If Centra was the focus why not ask why such a campaign was allowed / agreed / acceptable. But to be fair it included and evolved into a piece about Welfare.

Most shops bar tesco/lidi ect put a €10 or more condition on using laser/debit card, I use my laser card when I can but it’s fairly useless with something’s

188 is the maximum you can get, over 25. Before that it’s 144. It’s not easy to get rent allowance – not all places accept it. I can’t get it. I spend 188 a week – food, rent, bills. The other benefits are always tougher to get and depend on circumstances. You’re means-tested for them. I’m looking to get a medical card (because I don’t have more than a tenner to spend after the basics are covered), and I have to send bank statements, proof of rent etc.

I consider myself extremely lucky that I’m relatively healthy, young and free to be able to live on the dole. It’s definitely not too shabby at all for a single person over 25. And the extra benefits you can get potentially would lead to a pretty decent life. But there are times (after the feckin huge gas and electricity bills – jesus) when you’re in tesco, deliberating over spending your last 2 euro on toilet paper or printing off some more CVs, that can really get you down. Being on the dole is not good for people’s self esteem. People want to be able to support themselves, it’s a basic human trait. Some may not but they’re definately a small minority else the human race wouldn’t have gotten this far.

I don’t think social welfare and benefits are too much really. Maybe in some cases. But I think in general they’re just enough to live on without feeling completely demoralised.

She can probably get the same result by spending a few hours in the Dail bar! ;)

@richard
I agree that some on a welfare payment go drinking, but please dont assume that everyone “…get to much money on the dole” and that all on welfare spend on drinking. Thats not the case in many instances.
I appreciate that you work and see some spend like no tomorrow, but this is more the exception than the rule. If you could write to Joan Burton again and ask her to look at specific cases and also engage the HSE to make assessments on people who may have addiction issues or mental health issues then maybe those who are really struggling wont be classed as spongers…. Thanks.

Accountability for how money is spent may be no bad thing.
But let me be frank. Until Politicians or I’ll go further ALL PERSONS PAID BY THE STATE SHOW ME WHERE THEY SPEND THEIR MONEY AND ON WHAT, then and only then should we ask those on the lowest possible payments to DO THE SAME.
As for overacting, yes this is the case as it is a sensitive matter to question the vulnerable, especially when if truth be know the amounts we are talking about in the bigger scheme of Payments to politicians et all is minuscule, yet I havent seen a supposed article ask how much did X politician spend on food and what type of food did he/she spend it on and should he/she really be eating Spanish imported pasta instead of home grown spuds :)

Im not disagreeing with your point for questions to be asked as to what money is spent on within the welfare state, funded by taxes or loans from the EU. But if we are going down this route then we must also question those at the top end of state spending FIRST. (lead by example…..)

As has been born out throughout the various comments posted, maybe we did get irked at the Author, again, justly so in my opinion.
So if we are all to be accountable for our spend and actions, then these rules must also apply to the ENTIRE STATE SUPPORTED STAFF. Bet there would be uproar the likes thejournal.ie has never seen should there be an article or the opposite, stay quiet and it will all go away, aka Challenging the Croke Park Agreement…..(cough cough) lol.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/provenience – A source or origin.

Morality and ethics is a thing of the past in so many circles, in this Capitalist world of ours. It is fairly obvious where the source of some extra money is coming from (on the day children’s allowance is paid out) and supermarkets should be a little bit more vigilant. It shouldn’t all be about profit.

@Robin Boots. But it’s clearly a variant of Provenance. Perhaps the author is American ?

Increasing the Tax base is not “one easy solution to this debate”.
We are taxed on our labour, our goods and services, now our own homes, our RTE that hardly anyone watches, our death, our inheritance etc etc.

The money collected is mostly squandered. Fix that first and you will see a roll on effect across all levels of public service and sectors of society.

A recent example on how we waste.
Just yesterday, on the journal.ie, there was a story on how we are going to borrow millions (At interest) from the central bank to build extra classrooms for many schools around the country.
We already have 10,000s of builders out of work, and building suppliers craving for business. So instead of diverting some of the tax money that we have already borrowed and let filter through the economy, which will come back in taxes – we instead borrow AGAIN which will create more interest to be owed and then more money we will have to borrow just to pay that back. So in ‘putting people back to work’ using this financing method, we are putting a sticker plaster over the problem and also owned more money in the process.

There are no easy solutions, but there are some FAIRER than others that would be more palatable than others.
Its the palatable ones that this country wont take.
If anyone can point me in the direction of a decision that was morally and common sensically passed to favour those in need over those who weren’t please post the link here.
Tax is one measure that could be implemented, but the implementation of any new measure must be proficient and properly managed and Im my opinion Government and Top Civil Servants have failed on these for years

If somebody earning (say) 40k, and paying rent/mortgage is paying tax, why should somebody picking up a total of 40k on welfare and rent allowance etc be exempt from tax? The system has to be fair, and to be seen to be fair, apart from the issue of incentives to stay outside the workforce.
The reality is that we are borrowing money to pay a minority who won’t work, while issuing work visas to people from abroad to take up the jobs. We’re a laughing stock.
I don’t blame the people who chose to pass on these jobs btw, they are right to get the best deal that they can for their families. If that means staying at home, so be it. The system had to be overhauled though, and we have to look at tax as a way of doing it fairly.

you’re talking only about young people. people with families won’t have such an easy time of it. Also, good for you that you could save any of that dole money, I’m young and have to spend every penny to survive. If you’re lucky (young, single, free, living at home/having a family to support you), the dole is feckin great. For everyone else, not so sure.