If you have ever seen the south park episode with the Harley Davidson bikers and the kids calling them fags (not because they’re gay but because they’re “inconsiderate bastards”), it sums it up perfectly what you’re saying.

Didnt the word faggot originally meat a collector of sticks ?

And it was originally a term for an unpleasant old woman apparently

Intent is not magic. http://genderbitch.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/intent-its-fucking-magic/

I do take your point Conor but I think using the term ‘gay’ in that way is distinctly different to using ‘fag’. As you can see I focus on ‘fag’ in the column because I believe that word is inexcusable as it is almost exclusively said in a hateful and homophobic context!

It all very much depends on the context, and I can’t myself think of the word ‘fag’ being used in a non-aggressive way. I wanted to raise the point that I did above do as to avoid confusion on the matter.

“It’s time to fight the stigma and stand up for gay rights.”

Completely ignores the struggle of people over the last 30 (and more) years and reduces the gay rights movement to your dislike of the word “fag” as used by your friends on Facebook.

Congratulations!

“Completely ignores the struggle of people over the last 30 (and more) years and reduces the gay rights movement to your dislike of the word “fag” as used by your friends on Facebook.”

I’m almost 100% certain that the point Rory was *actually* trying to make is that, since we’ve managed to secure a certain amount of civil rights and legal protections for gay people, society has tended to be less mobilized around issues of gay discrimination. Casual homophobic remarks aren’t typically seen as discriminatory in the same way that homophobic laws are seen.

I take issue with Rory’s occasional poor use of punctuation in the article, and I agree with the two Conors that sometimes a strong focus on language can obscure the importance of the meaning behind it, but other than that I think it’s hard to fault the piece.

Luke- you might be right, but the fact that you need to clarify what the article says only serves to highlight its shortcomings.
Is it about homophobic language as the title suggests? Is it about inclusion in politics? Or is it about homophobic bullying?
Rory quotes that 79% of secondary teachers “were aware of homophobic bullying at their school” but he doesn’t state what form this bullying takes- to be relevant to the article this statistic should probably clarified: verbal, physical etc otherwise it isn’t necessarily relevant.
I take issue with the article’s structure, not with what he is trying to say. Which I am still somewhat unclear on.

If you’d read on further, you’d have seen that Rory clarifies the 79% statistic by saying that 16% of respondents were also aware of homophobia-related physical bullying. Even without taking it into account, I’d still argue that if bullying is homophobic in nature then it is relevant to the problem of homophobia regardless of what form the bullying might take.

We can agree to disagree on whether or not I “needed” to clarify what the article says in general terms–I made the clarification because you highlighted a particular remark and put a negative spin on it. My own perception is that you’re deliberately misunderstanding the article because you want to be difficult rather than genuinely not being able to see what point Rory has to make, but that’s just my opinion.

Luke, i’ll concede that I missed the clarification re the 16% But I am not trying to be difficult. I thought the article was poorly written, it lacks focus and jumps onto irrelevant points without explaining why they might be connected to the title.
The article is headed “It’s time to end the casual use of homophobic language in Ireland” if the column had been called, “Stop using fag, because it’s offensive” or “Homophobia hasn’t actually gone away” then maybe it would have been passable.
Why on earth is the following paragraph included:
“I’m tired of listening to the arguments against gay marriage and gay adoption. In fact it is bizarre that in 2012 we are still having the same arguments. Society should have moved on by now.”
It’s a different topic altogether. That’s why i stand by my original comment- the author co-opts other areas of the debate for no discernible reason and it serves only to lessen the impact of what he is trying to say.

Iighten up. This country is too PC. I’m tired of all you PC police….there is so much more to worry about than this stuff.

I thought the terms queer and fag or faggot were largely reclaimed by the gay community. At least in the States they are.

Conor, if your friends are using the word “gay” to be synonymous with “bad”, then they’re not being as supportive as you think they are. To me, that’s far worse than the bigots who come out with popular phrases such as “Oh here come the PC brigade” and “It’s a free country”/”What about my freedom of speech?” to hide their racism/homophobia behind.

Whatever is used to excuse it (“Oh, it’s just the English language evolving”/”I’m exercising my freedom of speech!”), at the end of the day it is homophobic language. It is used to insult, belittle, and make gay people feel different from the rest of society. Its use results in discrimination and hatred. Short-sighted people like Niall above say we should “lighten up”, but they’re missing the big picture: _lives are actually being lost_ as a result of this, whether it be through suicide or assaults motivated by homophobia. Stick “Stuart Walker” into your favourite search engine, have a good read and then tell me to “lighten up” and that “there is so much more to worry about”. Because, really, if we’re not going to worry about people being murdered, what are we supposed to worry about?

@John McAree: With the greatest of respect, I will decide how supportive my friends are of who I am, and not you. Were I to turn around and say that Adolf Hitler was a bastard, would you associate that with a child born outside of a marriage? No I don’t imagine you would. I can honestly say in a similar vein when people use the word ‘gay’ to describe something in a negative light, in the vast majority of cases, they do not associate it with homosexuality whatsoever.

I really don’t understand how you can think that this is worse than genuinely vile and repugnant comments and by levelling such a charge against people who are genuinely supportive of LGBTQ people and LGBTQ rights, you only serve to undermine that cause.

@John McAree: I think what makes your comment even worse is taking a look at some of your recent tweets. There was one in particular that struck me that read ‘@jonmcb or possibly track that guy down and punch him in the face. I actually find that worse than bigots using the “freedom of speech” def.’

Bullies come in may shapes and forms John, it is not the exclusive realm of straight people! The readers await your response.

@Conor Kirwan: Firstly an offhanded comment to a friend of mine made on Twitter is pretty irrelevant. If I’d actually directed it at you then fair enough you could interpret it as a threat. It wasn’t though, it was just meant as a joke.

Secondly I really don’t buy that “language” argument. “Bastard” is an archaic word that is no longer in use with its original meaning. If it wasn’t for the Simpsons, its original meaning probably wouldn’t even be common knowledge. “Gay” also has meanings that have fallen into disuse, however first and foremost it is still being used to refer to us. While the more “modern” use of it is in a different context, it’s pretty difficult to separate the association, especially since its origins were probably not meant in a kind way. While your friends obviously don’t associate its use with a gay person, I don’t think perpetuating its use is very supportive given the likely-unkind origins of its use. The fact that it is sweeping into common use is a bit sickening to me, and to most gay people I know, which is why I feel that it’s important for us not to accept its use, just as we wouldn’t accept someone calling us a “fag” or another derogatory term.

And yes, in a way I do think its worse since bigots typically are pretty open with their hatred, and easy to spot. The use of “gay” synonymous with “bad” is a bit more insidious though, while I’m sure a lot of people (such as your friends) don’t intend it in an offensive manner, I’m sure there are a lot who do use it and genuinely feel that way, and associate its use with the gay community.

Finally, just to throw a white flag up, I apologise if my comments (here or elsewhere) caused you offence, I didn’t mean to in all honesty. Just a bit of hot-headedness!

@John,

Are you saying that you didn’t literally mean you wanted to punch him in the face? It was some sort of expression?

I wonder how many fights and indeed murders are caused by such use of language….

Huh, the comment system ignores anything written in tags. I was saying that I imagine the usual rubbish comments regarding “the PC thought police” etc etc. will appear shortly.

Fookin hate lager I do. It gives me wind and makes me belch. Much prefer a glass of cider

There are those who find rape and fag jokes funny and you will never be able to police or control that fact. You can be offended by it and in doing so validate that sense of humor because it’s based on offence.

I’m not gonna bother commenting now, cos you said it all perfectly. nail on the head.

Kieran, that is wonderful that you never experienced any issues as a gay man in your personal or professional life. Now if only that could be said for every single LGBT person then your comment might be valid. Not everybody within the LGBT community is as fortunate as you or I (I have never experienced any prejudice in my adult/professional life) As I said above I did experience prejudice in school which did make it very difficult for me at times in my teen years, but I rose above it and got on with things.

But, not everyone is strong enough to that. It is the vulnerable that suffer most from the homophobic name calling etc. It has a terrible affect on LGBT youth in particular. As I said above, depression, self harm, mental anguish and sometimes suicide can occur amongst LGBT youths and adults as a result of homophobic name calling/bullying. The use of fag and gay as a negative is made OK by these so called jokes.

I think it is quite narrow-minded to presume that anyone who takes offence is immature.

So as a Local Cllr, if a member of the LGBT community came to you voicing concern over being subjected to name calling/bullying etc. would you have told them to toughen up, grow up and cop on to themselves and not be so easily offended?

Well said Sir!

I am referring to Kieran’s comment in the above comment.

Great points Brendan.

So because it doesn’t affect you, fuck all the other gay people?

Great. Of course, privilege isn’t an absolute thing and some “fags” will get off the hook easy. Some will not, at all. You are showing the same empathy failure the privileged straight white males here do.

http://derailingfordummies.com/#enjoyit

And what the American government says against Muslim countries in what… “Love speak”… Everyone has their little bit of racism, sexism, ageism etc…. But YES freedom of speech is exactly that FREEDOM, that someone says something you don’t like or support doesn’t take away that right to speak freely……… It appears that the only sector of society that can be discriminated against these days are … Straight, white men, between 18-50… everyone else seems to be in sub groups of society… gay, women, old, kids black, yellow grey etc…..TOUGHEN UP folks there is a lot worse things to be called

Shaun, while I agree that abuse is socially unacceptable, many consider freedom to be offensive to be part of freedom of speech, consider the Danish Mohammed cartoons by way of example.

The way forward is to educate people in the ways of politeness and mutual respect. Policing how people speak will only lead to bitterness, resentment and more hate.

“But YES freedom of speech is exactly that FREEDOM, that someone says something you don’t like or support doesn’t take away that right to speak freely”

But it’s not freedom to say whatever you like! It’s the freedom to share ideas. What ideas are you sharing by calling someone a fag? Freedom of Speech in Ireland anyway is restricted by anything that undermines public order or morality. That is obviously open to a plethora of interpretations.

The fact is freedom of speech is supposed to go hand-in-hand with respect, tolerance and understanding. It’s been my experience that people who use the freedom of speech argument are mixing it up with hate speech. There’s a massive difference.

Example:

I believe homosexuality is caused by environmental factors. = freedom of speech. Fine. You are expressing an idea. I disagree with you, but fine.

That guy is such a fag. = hate speech.

Massive difference.

Damocles:

I completely agree with you. I don’t agree with policing at all, but I do agree with the protection of minorities. I’m aware there is always going to be a blurry line between the two.

There’s a difference between the freedom to be offensive and the freedom to actually abuse another person, though.

“I believe homosexuality is caused by environmental factors. = freedom of speech. Fine. You are expressing an idea. I disagree with you, but fine.”

Just to point out too, that ideas can be wrong as well. Freedom of speech does not mean “Freedom to be correct at all times”. If you say something that is based on invalid reasoning or incorrect factual information, expect it to be rejected from serious debate.

Exactly Leigh. Opinions are there to be challenged and debated (especially on a debating forum!). Some people think having an opinion in itself makes them immune from criticism and that all opinions are equal, even when facts completely fly in the face of their beliefs.

And on a wider and more important point, hate speech should never be confused with freedom of speech. We are a relatively free and stable democracy, yet we rightly have laws against Incitement to Hatred, to protect groups against extreme forms of bigotry and hate.

you’re so right Shaun he is pathetic lol

Homosexuality is an exclusively human practice.

Do you suppose 1 male dog mounting another to be a homosexual act? Or 2 penguins hanging out? Do you think animals of the same sex, when they copulate, are doing so purely for the pleasure of the act as humans might do? What kind of reasoning do you suppose your 450 species to have engaged in?

You have made the mistake of attributing human emotions to dumb animals.

I suppose you think that a whale killing a dolphin is murder too, while you are at it?

Your ignorance really knows no bounds. Homosexual behaviour is a well documented fact in the animal kingdom. But don’t let facts get in the way of your bigotry.

Adam
Facts?
Where?

@Dismis Okello,

There are extensive accounts – Google or Wikipedia ‘homosexual behaviour in animals’ for a full and exhaustive list.

And I feel no need to prove or justify anything to someone like you who holds such bigoted and obnoxious views, which thankfully is not reflective of how most people in Ireland think today.

The internet is an exclusively human practice but you seem ok with that

Dismas it’s clear that you didn’t get it :(

Adam you’re a demagogue to much talking no message

@Jose Porto

There are quite a few messages in the points I raised actually, one of the most important being that homophobia in whatever form it takes is never acceptable and those who seek to defend it on grounds of ‘religious belief’, ‘culture’ etc are still engaging in bigotry. Like racism and other forms of prejudice, it should never be seen as socially acceptable and the author is right to draw attention to the fact that it is dismissed as ‘funny’ far too often through use of language and so on.

You might not have understood or agreed with the points I was making but that’s a different thing entirely.

Dismas, in that case heterosexuality is a purely human practice.

You’re completely missing the point. He’s not talking about a bit of slagging.

Obviously not about the writing on lockers and such, I should have pointed that out. I mean just an everyday bit of humour, it will be a sad day when people can’t even make a joke.

It’s about being careful about how you use certain words. I’m all for making fun of stereotypes, but I think you will find the number of straight men being bullied by gays or being beaten by them to the edge of their lives to be rather small…

Are you seriously trying to compare what you call “slagging” of straight men with that of gay men? Firstly, the reality is that every state, organisation and society in general is predominantly controlled by straight men. They’re just not a vulnerable group in any society. Secondly, I’ve never heard of a straight man being bullied, let alone beaten to death because of his sexuality.

Are you comparing slagging with being beaten to death?

Sean Davids, do you understand what “privilege” is at all? You do realise that slagging a gay man is far more culturally significant, and far less likely to be tongue in cheek? Almost nobody “hates” straight people or heterosexuality. Can’t say the same for the reverse can you?

Same way as some back people call themselves niggas all the time. It’s a form of defense. It’s seen as taking back a word that was and still is used to beat the community down.

Queer used to be a huge insult but it’s potency has subsided since the LGBT community took the word and gave it another meaning, The Ideals of differing Sexuality and Genders. Many colleges now offer Queer Studies and Queer theory is on most Communications courses

I hate this attitude more than anything. Bullying happens, let’s do nothing about it. Even when people lose their lives over it.

People can say what they like, but articles like this may make them not want to say damaging things.

In case anyone thinks I use “gay” or “fag” in a derogatory way, I don’t. As to wheather or not I’m “bigoted”, I don’t think so. I do have opinions, and they disagree with many who comment here, maybe I should stay away and leave you discuss the issues with those who agree with you. I wonder who are the persecuted today, those who promote the gay agenda, or those who try to civilly speak the opposite view?

@Scully Pj

Can you tell me what the “Gay agenda” is please?
Very interested to know.

This nice person PJ Scully ( see his comments and the responses above) has been insulted and castigated for having an opinion.

that is an intellectually lazy, arrogant, self-aggrandising, prideful and ignorant manner of addressing his considered and polite postings.

It seems that many of the people who respond to Mr Scully in this and other articles he has written about revert to a stereotypical “bitchy” attitude. Stereotypical of what? Go figure

The elements of the gay agenda I have difficulty with are their efforts to redefine marriage and their pursuit of adoption “rights”. As a group the gay community has much to fight for including homophobic bullying and any other derogatory names gays as a group are subjected to.

Agenda:
8am: Wake Up
8:10am have a big oul gay breakfast
9:00am destroy the institution of marriage
11am Sodomise everything
1pm Lunch
2pm OMG SHOPPING!!!
3pm Destroy Religious Freedom
6pm watch Glee
7pm Indoctrinate some kids to our way
9pm Dress up like a woman
11pm Bed time

What I don’t understand Kevin is how do you succeed in getting 9 hours sleep. You must have a clear conscience after a good days work.

Couldn’t agree more

It’s just an example of a straight politician supporting equal rights.

But we didn’t post anything like that. I wasn’t going to make a gay joke, butt f#%k it.

@DublinTechGuy :

You are another good example of positive discrimination. You want us understand and respect you when you fight for your rigts as a gay and you are totally disrespect our rigths to be ourselves.

DubTechGuy,

I can’t speak for the guys you mention, but most normal folks wouldn’t get too bothered about being slagged off as being sexually inadequate. If it it is obvious that it is a joke (and a comment about someone’s sexual adequacy is usually a joke) then who gets offended?

It’s when the motivation for such goes beyond a cheap laugh and statrs to get aggressive, then it is totally unacceptable.

Hey Dublin techguy, what about the girls? Do they also have small penises?

Firstly, people will always assign labels. And homosexual hatred can be equally scathing. Playing the puritan won’t change that. The point is bullying is a regrettable human activity engaged in by all persuasions – gay straight bi etc. Personally I think people (of any sexual orientation) should be able to laugh at themselves a big more often to see how ridiculous their whinging and whining is…

@Elizabeth Dunne

Your views on bullying are disturbing quite frankly and I hope you are not in a position of authority over people who actually need help and support in confronting it – especially if it involves homophobic bullying, which, regardless of how you try to spread around the blame, is a particularly serious problem as identified by people who are familiar with the issue.

Thanks Adam

As you can see Rory, lots of people share your concerns around the casual use of homophobic language and how this feeds into the wider prejudice and discrimination that we continue to confront. But we have most of public opinion on our side (see the story in today’s Journal once again indicating overwhelming support for marriage equality). As you can also see on this thread, there will always be bigots (some downright ridiculous and almost comical in their statements, others more sinister and influential). So we need to keep the campaigning and awareness going and we will continue to build on progress already made.

What was the result. Did he get the weekend off.

I supposed you enabled him and have him the confidence to be bolder- he should have just explained the reason he wanted the weekend off though, and his Ma shouldn’t have gotten involved.

bloody predictive text, gave him, not have

Do lesbians and gays have different employment rights than apply to straight people or am I missing something here?

yep – a very effective puppy training technique!!

what happens when you get confronted and told that eavesdropping on other peoples conversations and then interrupting it to ram your own philosphy down their throats isn’t acceptable??

@Rob

It’s not about ramming anything down anyone’s throat – It’s about displaying basic manners and consideration for those around you.

And yes Garreth, I too have confronted homophobic language and behaviour and will continue to do so. Certainly in a work situation, we have very stringent laws and anyone who engages in anti-gay behaviour (or indeed against those covered by the other 8 grounds contained in our Equality laws) does not have a legal leg to stand on. Except for those under the Section 37 religious ‘ethos’ exemption of course but that is another story entirely..

Brian I totally agree with your points made about the treatment of unmarried fathers in this country – It’s utterly wrong in every way but I must point out that if a woman with a child enters a civil partnership with another woman that woman has NO rights towards her partners child.The mothers next of kin ie her parents do.
That is one of the issues that the gay community have with the differences between civil marriage and civil partnership.

@Shane…… But the family unit, however it’s made up has priority. If the father is unmarried, he has no rights to his child unless the court grants guardianship to him…. If a lesbian couple has a child, can’t the non biological partner adopt the kids legally??? Step parents have the same problem when it comes to kids….. Screw adults rights here for the moment… the kids should have the rights to their parents, gay or straight. Gay rights have come a long way, and rightly so but in my opinion Rights are something for People and not groups of people. What I find hilarious is that the so called ” Christians”, want to monopolies marriage and deny others heir human rights… In the end people are so much more than how they chose to sleep with.

The role of a mother as “natural guardian” is a logical and reasonable one. There are countless historical and societal reasons for it also. At least one fact that the courts protect is the statistical reality that the mother is and always will be the main carer for a child. Spelled out: women do the lions share and more than not, men walk the other way. Marriage is benchmark in relation to the rights of fathers. Spelled out: a willingness to commit to a relationship via marriage is society’s only way of measuring a child’s welfare by reference to the biological father.

Just to clarify Brian – the non-biological parent in a same-sex union cannot legally adopt the child at present. Unlike in Britain, this was one of the glaring anomalies in our version of Civil Partnership – Another practical reason why it is important to proceed with marriage equality.

And I understand the points you are making about the rights of fathers, but do not fall into the trap of setting up different groups against each other (Slightly off topic, but I would suggest that the likes of John Waters with his reactionary views on these kinds of issues does the fathers rights movement no favours whatsoever)

@Dismas Okello

So my disgust at seeing numerous straight couples engage in lewd behaviour in public over the years was really just ‘heterophobia’…lol

I know I said I wouldn’t engage any further with your idiotic posts but your latest rant was just crying out for a response.

>Any view contrary to the author’s and any view contrary to the pro-author comments, is homophobic.

No. Why do you assholes always pull this? Some views will be labelled homophobic because they are offensive or damaging to the LGBT community. It is not purely because you disagree with someone, though if you disagree on something as fundamental as human rights, of course people will chastise you.

If you have a good argument, make. “Bawww you’re calling me a bigot because I disagree” is a lazy argument.

>If your beloved son is homosexual and you completely disagree with his choices yet continue to love your son, you are homophobic.

It’s not a choice. And there’s no valid reason to disagree with it that isn’t ignorant or hateful. I’d also be sceptical of the degree to which you’d “Love” your son.

>If you hang onto your faith, which faith expressly forbids same sex relationships, amongst other immoral acts, you are homophobic.

Yes, because such a faith discriminates against homosexuals. That practice is considered hateful in the modern world and has ultimately been the result of violence and social rejection. You can be gay and christian.

So wait a second, up above you’re saying people should be allowed say what they want and now you’re giving out that this piece was published?

he doesn’t come across as almost aggressive, he sounds exhausted from the uphill battles of trying to reach the humanity inside those wh just dont want to listen. I thought it was a well written piece because of the passion and belief that came through. it is an opinion article after all, not a clinical, objective article.

Congratulations, with just one comment you have trivialised the plight of the entire LGBT community. You should be proud…

Not if what you say is an incitement to hatred and undermines the broader values of the society in which we live. I think you will find that even the ultimate non-interventionist J.S. Mill would agree with me there!

David, theres a difference between free speech and dated bigoted terminology like the word fag.

I think you have no concept of what a free society is. It is not being able to say what you like or there would be no slander laws and no laws against verbal abuse/bullying behaviour. Perhaps you mistake a free society for an anarchic one? In which case you would be entitled to say what you like and someone else would be entitled to smack you in the mouth or punish you in whatever way they saw fit.

Godwins law

LGBT people are not looking for special privileges.Were black people looking for special privileges when they didn’t want to sit in the back anymore?
Have a read of this article about a 15 yr old boy who committed suicide last December for being “slagged”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/04/observer-editorial-homophobia-bullying-schools

I looked for any evidence of something similar happening to a red haired child – couldn’t find anything…funny that

@ Mike El
Spot on . I am sick of ‘gay rights’ . I am hetrosexual, but my sexuality does not define who I am.
No more than the fact that I have black hair defines me . But dare I say it to certain people , I would be slated
for my sexism…. or some other ..ism. I do not care who any one shags . It is of no consequence to me what a persons sexuality is ,once they do it on their own time .
So if there is a gay teacher , he is still a teacher and I expect him/ her to teach . Or Doctors should doctor , nurses ,nurse. Bus drivers , drive buses… See where I am going with this . I Don’t care . I do not define any one by their sexuality. I do not use the words ‘fag or faggot” .I do laugh at jokes, all kinds of jokes .About gay people married people , husbands wives , you name it ,teacher pokes and doctor / nurse jokes .. not all sexual or political….just funny.
Lighten up people Live and let live /love and let love!!!

@ Eileen
If everyone were like you ,as in, your indifference to whether someones sexuality affects how they do their jobs
and live and let live.Gay people wouldn’t need to fight for equal rights( not gay rights)
I don’t define myself by my sexuality either – I hardly think about it, but I do when a random stranger calls me a fucking faggot for walking out of a Gay bar.I’ll try to lighten up the next time and buy him a drink.

Why waste money on a drink for him , if it is a him that calls you names . Ignore him . Sticks and stones…..
If you are gay , why get hung up about it !
Honestly ! No one else is.

Not hung up at all Eileen,just would like to socialize without being verbally abused.
Oh and maybe be allowed to donate blood,marry my partner,adopt children!
Live and let live!!!
I wish

Shane
I believe you speak for us all when you say that .
I too would like to socialize without running a
gauntlet of totally inappropriate comments too .
Maybe it is ok for a woman to have vulgar and lewd
comments shouted at her ,if she prefers not to kiss/sleep
with a total stranger on first meeting them,or a man to be
called names because they do not ‘like’ a woman who is not
attractive to him….
However I take your point and wish you well.

Shane I am sorry all of these things are in your way to your life fulfillment .
I can not give blood after suffering Hepetitis (excuse the spelling) when I was six….
A lot of people go abroad now a days to marry their partners . In fact two of the best
and nicest weddings I was ever at, was away, I am sure adopting a child is not
impossible either . So you see every problem has a solution. I am not being flippant
towards your problems , but they are only problems as long as you let them be that.

I do understand that there is a quyestion of adopting as a couple , and there is inheritance
rights etc . Please don’t let any of these stop you . because all will come right in the end.

@Mike Ei and Eileen Gabbett

It is not looking for ‘special privileges’ to expect not to be bullied, insulted or denied the same rights as everyone else based on your sexual orientation. And it is thanks to the work of the gay rights movement you are so keen to dismiss, that we as LGBT people can live our lives openly without fear of criminal prosecution. It is thanks to the work of such activists that it is now illegal to fire or refuse service to someone on the basis of sexual orientation (although if you’re a gay Teacher or Doctor working for an institution with a religious ‘ethos’ you can still be discriminated against, an ‘opt out’ we are actively working on having repealed from our otherwise excellent employment equality legislation.). Furthermore, it is thanks to the work of gay campaigners and our straight allies that we now have some degree of legal recognition of same-sex relationships in Ireland. Do you think all of these developments came about by accident or that being gay was always seen as just another characteristic such as having ‘black hair’ or being left handed etc – And please, do not trivialise in this way the hard fought for gains that have been achieved for our community.

And yet, significant challenges remain. All very well to say ‘live and let live’ but as heterosexuals, you are entitled to marry the partner of your choice and if you enter a union with someone who has existing children, you can become their official guardian. That is not the case at present for same-sex couples, so with respect, we will continue fighting for full equality until such a thing is achieved. We expect not to be discriminated on the basis of our sexuality – nothing more and nothing less. So less of this ‘special rights’ nonsense which is an import from the extreme anti-gay religious right movement in the US.

A quick aside, Donal Og Cusack used to get a fair amount of abuse from the terraces at hurling games, not homophobic abuse, just regular pig ignorant abuse. I actually always went to the stand myself to avoid the knuckle draggers on the terraces.
However in recent games he gets less abuse as no one wants to be seen as homophobic. A few lads still shout out vulgarities, and some is indeed homophobic, but the overall amount he gets has gone down in my humble opinion.

Adam Long
You say
”So less of this ‘special rights’ nonsense which is an import from the extreme anti-gay religious right movement in the US” Already you have labelled me Adam . You are very wrong about me ,if this is what believe . I am not anti -gay.
I have trivialised nothing . It is important that people get on and live their lives and change things as they see fit to suit their own lives. Most people do this .
Then you said” do not trivialise in this way the hard fought for gains that have been achieved for our community” Adam what ”community” do you mean ? Again you have marginalised yourself with this comment . Strange that!
I wish you luck for your future . I live and let live.

@Eileen

I was responding to you agreeing with another contributor who claims to be sick of LGBT people looking for ‘special privileges’. The same contributor then goes on to trivialise the very real problems of bullying and discrimination that gay people face by comparing it to being teased for having red hair.

That kind of statement irks me greatly because any fair or reasonable examination of the facts would show that far from looking for ‘special rights’ (which is a buzzword of the christian fundamentalists in the US), we have yet to fully secure equality under the law despite the fact that a large majority of Irish people support such a concept. And that kind of glib ‘special rights’ comment is further undermined when you consider such simple things as same-sex couples being afraid to hold hands in public for fear of being met with verbal abuse or worse – something straight couples do not even have to think twice about.

In terms of ‘community’, I was referring to the LGBT community, which I am happy to consider myself a part of. Society is made up of many different groups and it does not follow that by identifying with a particular group, you are marginalising yourself.

And I accept you are not anti-gay but please recognise that the battle for equality is a real and necessary one.

Adam Long
No problem. I support your rights and I understand the need we all have to be accepted as equal as we are .

You’re not gay, you haven’t experienced homophobic bullying, and far more people die or are depressed from it than “ginger bullying”.

You are not at the receiving end. It is very easy for you to tell others to “grow up”. LGBT people already get “special treatment” in the negative sense. But that of course, doesn’t bother you.

Eileen that is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen written here. I suggest you actually read up on the kind of issues LGBT people actually face and why they feel the need to “define” themselves. Because you claim not to define others by their sexuality, does not change the fact that people in general will view someone differently because of it.

It’s incredibly insulting and homophobic to claim LGBT people “define themselves by their sexuality”. You’re essentially chastising them for standing up for themselves and there’s little more disgustingly privileged than that.

Too much PC bullshit about these days…. everyone needs to toughen up a bit

Jesus relax

Still spelt “retarded”.. no matter how many times the comment gets deleted

Also, the phrase ‘a bit Irish’. Can anyone tell me what that even means? it seems to be a catch-all for anything negative

Can we please stop saying anything at all, as that we won’t have to worry whether someone, somewhere is offended by it? On the other hand, we could just toughen up a bit and stop taking every insult as anything other than an indication that the insulter has a problem.

Brian Keelty, what you mean is that people who aren’t you need to toughen up a bit, since you have not and will never be the subject of Homophobic bullying, nor can you understand what it’s like. It’s not your place to tell other people they need to put up with abuse.

Mother in laws are so gay

that would be Mothers in law…….

I was thinking about that very clip!

Spot on

you managed to describe yourself quite nicely there.
I know many straight white middle aged males with a privileged backgrounds and thankfully they don’t have your values.So stop playing the martyr

mypolitics…that is pure crap. the inferance from.your post is that minoritied should just keep their heads down…iv exp that attitude all my life..most recently on.this site as a protestant and in history of this troubled land it was the discrimination of a minority that led to 30 years of violence

Of course, as a white middle aged male, you’d have no problem with people calling you a thick bog-trotting Mick.

The rules which stop you from calling someone a fag are the same rules which stop someone from abroad labelling the Irish in a derogatory way. And that’s a good thing, right?

You think people don’t label the Irish in a derogatory way? I’ve got some news….

People will Respect your opinion more if you do it intelligently and dont just dismiss their concerns as rubbish.

And I’m tired of hearing people like you suggest that people who disagree with the use of homophobic language are bullied and silenced.
homophobic language is as damaging as racist language and yes people who use it should should be silenced.
Do you think it’s acceptable for black people to be called niggers? wheelchair users : cripples or retards?
I think not..words like faggot and queer are just as unacceptable.

Shane – read my comment and perhaps try to reply to what I said, rather than what you simply presume I said.

You could say the same for the use of “PC gone mad”. Sooner or later, you won’t be able to express any progressive opinion without it being immediately dismissed as “political correctness”. Sounds crazy, but it’s already happening.

The post makes a valid argument, you may agree or disagree with it, but writing it off as “PC” is ridiculous.

Hang on, you’re against same-sex marriage, against same-sex parenting, and condemn the homosexual act. How is that not homophobic?

(Sorry “the homosexual act” should have been in suitably mocking quotation marks there.)

By your definition then, marriage is strictly a religious contract and the civil marriage papers that are signed are of no import. By your definition atheists should not be allowed to marry either and I gather from what you are saying, people of other religions.

Your ideal of marriage is between a man and a woman in a Catholic church, many others have a different ideal. The only difference is, we won’t try and stop you celebrating your ideal of marriage where you are intolerant of mine!

Scripture, old and new, condemns a lot of things that a perfectly acceptable in modern society and on the other hand contains laws and rules that would be completely unacceptable – for good reason – these days. Here are a few definitions of marriage (which EVOLVES as a concept in the course of the narrative of the Bible). I’d think you’d find that most people today would oppose to a victim of rape having to marry the rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). For more: http://cdn.unicornbooty.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Marriage-According-to-the-Bible-.png

an interesting comment. while I respect that catholics may want to uphold the teachings in their scriptures, is it not our modern responsibility to question them when they ask us to exclude individuals on the basis of archaic prejudices that should no longer occupy our society. I am not saying condemn the religion and its beliefs, but simply to recognise errors of the past and then adapt. not only that, while marriage can be seen as an institution to support the bringing up of children, there is no doubt that when people think of marriage first, they think of it as a way to unite in a very definitive way with the partner they love. why should anyone be excluded from that.

I wish people would realise that there is a difference between religious marriage and civil marriage. One doesn’t necessarily infringe on the other.

No I am not homophobic, I love the persons but cannot support their actions. You obviously have accepted the LGBT redefinition of “homophobia, marriage, human rights”.
I wish marriage within the church for all, but I know marriage is a civil issue and recognise all marriages between a single male and a single female.

Which of my actions can you not support? Shopping? Going to work in the morning and paying taxes? Watching the Six Nations? Having a pint? Or the one thing that I do that is ABSOLUTELY NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS and, unless you’re a creepy peeping tom you’ll never get to see? :)

Homosexuality has been widely documented in the animal world – therefore according to whatever “natural law” you wish to place on life, it is perfectly normal and should be acceptable. The only LGBT agenda which I am aware of is the one to push acceptence of their personal choices, and this is entirely reasonable. A homosexual marraige should have no baring on your marraige PJ, nor does a homosexual relationship have a baring on your life. And what data exists points towards the sexual orientation of adoptive parents having no baring on the quality of a child upbringing – there are plenty of children waiting for good homes and caring guardians, and there are plenty of homosexual couples prepared to provide that if only given the chance.

I presume from your post that you are a religious believer, so perhaps you can answer a question for me. If God created man in his own image, and a certain percentage on mankind is homosexual, does that not also make God just a little bit gay? This may sound facitious, but there’s a larger point being made here…

i kind of agree, and i don’t always see it as homophobic, however what i DO usually argue about is keeping YOUR church out of MY politics

If you use the word fag, people will assume you’re of the opinion that you do not like Gay people.
It is not neseccary to use that word as there are many other ways you can express your opinion.

No one is asking you to give up your opinions, just the words you use to express them

Fag means hate.

Well hang on, doesn’t that mean it’s preferable to say “Homosexuals are an abomination” to “I couldn’t care less if you’re a fag” ?

Is it offensive words you want to stamp our or offensive opinions? And who decides?

If you want to campaign for something, campaign for equal treatment. Let’s keep the hatred where we can see it so we can fight/laught at/ignore it

Chuck, the point is that using words associated with homosexuality in common language, to express negativity, sends the message that homosexuality itself is something negative. Language has a big influence on how culture develops. Ask Noam Chomsky or some good linguist.

That could hardly be less relevent to what I said

Watch out Chuck
She might use her privilege to attack you based on your race, sex and sexuality

Just to point out that both of you have done nothing but argue with Marginalised people in these comments sections. Since all you do is defend your privilege, of course I’m going to call you on it.

Don’t feed the trolls Leigh. Simply looking for a reaction..

No I haven’t Leigh
I have no problem with marginalised people demanding respect
I do have a problem with you making gross generalisations about people and attacking them based on their age, gender and sexuality

No Adam, it was a serious question. This is a forum, the whole purpose is the discuss things not just to say how much you agree with the original article – that would add nothing

Leigh, why would I bother with you when you have no reply to the points I already made to you? I have no privilege, and you have no leg to stand on

People leaving stupid comments on the journal should also be deported

Look, you’re good example of my point. Positive discrimination. There is a new class of people who see you and label you “stupid”, “bigoted”, “homophobic” even before you start to talk.

So, you want to see who deported? Me? What else, executed maybe?

Yeah sure, why not…

“Look, you’re good example of my point. There is a new class of people who see you and label you “stupid”, “bigoted”, “homophobic” even before you start to talk.”

Stop trying to intellectualise an idiotic statement. He labelled you stupid *after* you made that stupid comment. And quite rightly too.

@Cpm, if you will read yesterdays news story about former major of Naas – you will get better perspective on my comment. Having opinion different from yours does not make me stupid automatically. Explain why my comment looks stupid to you.

It’s a silly comment because you impy that the fact that it’s socially unacceptable to make homophobic or racist jokes is somehow an attack on your personal freedom. It’s not.

Imply, even.

@Shaun, I do not agree but I respect your opinion. It’s a first one without an insult of some kind.

I think it’s a preposterous claim. I think they’ll tickle you, then they’ll put your face in to a bag of bees.

@Tom Kenny –

As you well know, nobody is trying to deprive you of your beliefs. That is a complete misnomer. Treating LGBT people with equality and respect does not come at the expense of those who are religious, unless of course your intent is to enforce the moral codes of your particular religious brand on to society as a whole. However, you state that you are opposed to prejudice and discrimination against same-sex couples so I take it you do not favour such a course of action.

What gay people are looking for is equal treatment in civil law, which should be secular and not based on any religious doctrine.

I will say however, that as a gay man, I take strong exception to your definition of what constitutes ‘normal’. LGBT people have existed throughout history and will continue to do so and the fact that we comprise a minority does not make us any less ‘normal’ or deserving of equality.

It also should be pointed out that every credible and mainstream medical and psychological organisation has stated that homosexuality is a completely natural and normal variant of human sexuality. You are of course free to believe what you want but the view you express about LGBT people not being ‘normal’ should never influence any public policy in this area.

@Tom Kenny

…Also, what a limited view you have of humanity. We are not simply about procreation. Human nature (and sexuality) is much more complex and interesting than that.

What do you define as normal, and why is normal a good thing? I would say homosexuality is relatively normal, it’s not very rare and is increasingly a part of mainstream culture, but that we as a culture are lacking things that are abnormal. We have become a very mainstream oriented culture, hard to believe the Virgin Prunes came from here.

Well Adam you appear to have been busy carrying the can and defending the camp for the second half of the day. It is sad in later articles where your side of the argument has to find approval for your actions among the animal kingdom. I always considered us above the animals. I agree with you that we are more than procreation machines, but I doubt if you were referring to our spiritual nature.
Redefining marriage is the next big mistake society will make, this follows the abortion catastrophe, and soon to follow will be euthanasia. It is much harder to wind back our mistakes.
Society has a problem with definitions, many mix up love and lust, others freedom and licence. But we all tend to find a way to justify our own wrongdoings, isn’t human nature wonderful, sometimes.

PJ, can I ask you one question. Will your gay neighbours down the road marrying or being able to get married effect your life in any serious way, and how?

I presume your question is rhetorical, but I’ll answer anyway, not that you will put much weight in my reply. As I said elsewhere marriage, as currently constructed by law, and for several millennia, is designed primarly to provide a stable, loving environment for the creation/sustaining of children for the benefit of society going forward and to set the man and womens relationship on terra firms. The marrige you propose is of no benefit to society or children, merely a legal mechanism for the benefit of the “couple”. The “new” marriage, will of course devalue all true marriages by redefining the necessarry characteristics that the wisdom of ages set in place to facilitate the propagation of individuals and society.
Are those of you in the gay community so unsure of the validity of your relationship that you find it necessarry to tear down marriage. Marriage and the propogation of society is already under attack from within by couples using divorce as an easy exit and by the proliferation of the contraseptive mentality and worldwide abortion.
So if my neighbour/friend marries in a gay relationship, then marriage has a new meaning, and it is certainly not what I ment when I said “I do”.

@Adam, Read again what I wrote, I’m happy for you, sincerely, I believe that you should have the same rights as everyone else, But like wise I’m entitled to my beliefs. I don’t think your evil, I’m not calling you a sinner or any other names. But I take exception at being told what I should or should not believe, I really don’t care if mainstream medical or anyone else says it’s normal, or if they say it’s not. I have no problem being tolerant of your views, opinions etc etc, but it appears that you are struggling to be tolerant of mine, I wish you well, but please don’t try and tell me that there is something “wrong” with me because I view things differently than you.

@Tom Kenny/John Johnson

Being LGBT is not a ‘view’ or ‘opinion’ so please don’t equate that with your views about gay people not being ‘normal’. Yes, you are entitled to your beliefs (as if that was ever in any doubt) – I’m just glad however that most people seem content to extend full equality to their gay friends, family members etc without feeling the need to qualify their support with (ill-informed) notions of what constitutes being ‘normal’.

Okay Adam, I certainly have no intentions of upsetting you or hurting your feelings, you are obviously very passionate about this. I was trying to make the point that we are all entitled to be our selves, warts and all, tall, short, skinny, overweight, straight, gay, also our opinions that may be popular or unpopular, as long as we don’t infringe anothers rights regardless of their sexuality. I was saying all along that my respect for another has nothing to do with their sexuality, I still don’t believe it is “normal” but that is my personal opinion or how I feel about it, I wouldn’t dream of trying to say that my “opinion” is right or more important than anyone elses, but I am entitled to it. Hope you have a nice evening, PS on mates computer, thought I logged in but obviously not.

@Tom Kenny –

You certainly don’t need to worry about hurting my feelings. I have no problem engaging in robust debate. That’s not the issue here…You will find that most LGBT people and anyone else who feels strongly about human rights/equality issues will be quite passionate on this subject. And if you claim (without a shred of evidence to back it up) that being gay is not ‘normal’, you have to expect to be challenged on that.

@Adam, You really seem to struggle with what I’m saying, I NEVER said it wasn’t normal,
I said that was my opinion………never said I was right and you were wrong…….

Baseless opinions are useless in a real debate where we’re trying to decide on what we should and shouldn’t do, especially when a minority’s rights are at stake. Have more respect and don’t throw them around where they don’t belong.

Well Leigh I’m not sure who you were addressing with your comment, but it smacks of burying ones head in the sand to dismiss others opinions with such an authoritative air. But you are correct in one respect, there is an issue with a minorities “right”, and that is, that a minorities right should not undo the majorities right to preserve the multispectral nature of marriage. A man, a woman and children.

@PJ Scully

You hold fringe views on this issue and certainly do not represent the majority you talk about. I refer you to another story on today’s Journal which shows that nearly 3 out of 4 Irish people – 73% – support extending marriage rights to same-sex couples, and the most recent survey on the right of gay couples to be considered for adoption shows 3 in 5 in support. These positive findings are growing all the time.

So equality for gay people is not only the right thing to do, but the popular thing also.

@ Adam Long
I look forward to that Adam. We both believe what we believe with a passion. You are quite a
frightful opponent for your cause, I’d hate to see you when you’re angry. But despite the 73%, you may find that “might makes right” does not always apply. Who commissioned the question? How come the results were mentioned by the GLBT group even before they were mentioned on Newstalk two days ago? Why has this media being preparing the ground for an attack on marriage for weeks now?
So I suppose we shall see how “fringe” my views are, and we shall determine if the majority you see in your numbers is real or fictional.
I can hear the Rosary beads rattling already D.V. Hopefully the cause for marriage will find it’s voice.
In a way the closing of the embassy may help the cause as it warns the people that there are ideologies against their interests, and It warns the politicians that the backlash would be fierce.
Now let me see how should I put it to my wife, “Darling do you mind awfully if I redefine marriage….”. I don’t see that going very well do you? See you in the new article later.
P.S. This is not an equality issue, you Adam are free to marry any woman you please.

Adam I posted a reply twice but the taught police had their way and removed it.

@Leigh, I show respect in all my comments, Your reply is strange, as in it you reply with “your opinion”.
Having read some of your other comments, I would suggest that you attempt to refrain from name calling etc, as this will have tho opposite effect you are looking for. If you can make your point in a calmer way people are more likely to listen to you, where as if you name call etc, no one will be open to hearing your views or “opinions”

@ Adam Long
I received your post by mail but it does not appear streamed, so ill reserve my response.

Yes but it does not make it right nor acceptable – verbal abuse and violence often go hand in hand.
I have be called names leaving a gay pub and have ignored it and moved on but i also know someone who was verbally abused and then jumped by 2 lads on a sat night in Dublin city center all because of hate so I do think that hate affects more than the person who hates.So yes I’m all for live and let live..

Yeah you have a point. If someone spits the word ‘homosexual’ at you it can be filled with hate. Whereas someone with a, shall we say, ‘robust’ manner might say “Hey, you’re queer, can I borrow your eye to pick out a shirt? I’m a straight guy.”

Good manners, consideration and respect are what’s being sought by the article; they are totally compatible with free speech.

Learn the difference between freedom of speech and hate speech.

Free exchange of ideas; but no verbal abuse.

Dismas, you should quit while you’re behind.
Also it wasn’t King David who wrote “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”. It was his son, Solomon. It also isn’t in the Psalms, it’s in Proverbs.

@Todo

As someone who has attended many Gay Pride celebrations I can assure you that there are many diverse elements to it – gays and our straight allies marching behind equality banners, organisations promoting sexual health and awareness and yes, like with any party or celebration (Mardi Gras anyone..), colourful performers and acts. It’s that diversity which makes Gay Pride such a fun and important event (second only in size and turnout to the St Patricks Day Parade in Dublin).

Clearly this is something most of us understand – In the last survey on the issue, 3 out of 5 people said they favoured allowing same-sex couples be considered for adoption. This makes sense, as most Irish people now know an LGBT person directly, so the false caricatures put out there by anti-gay groups trying to spread fear of the unknown have been completely debunked for the most part. We are not ‘circus cast masters’ – we are peoples sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, friends, work colleagues living everyday lives.

@Tom Kenny

You certainly don’t need to worry about hurting my feelings. I have no problem engaging in robust debate. That’s not the issue here…You will find that most LGBT people and anyone else who feels strongly about human rights/equality issues will be quite passionate on this subject. And if you claim (without a shred of evidence to back it up) that being gay is not ‘normal’, you have to expect to be challenged on that.

One final small detail, You continously refer to LGBT, I am not putting labels on anyone, someones sexuality
“in my opinion” is a very small part of Who they are and how they are with the world. It neither makes them good or bad

@Tom Kenny

Yes, LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered) is a real and legitimate community which I am proud to identify with. Society comprises of many diverse groups and that is a good thing.

And I fully understand what you are saying. But being of the view that gay people are not normal flies in the face of accepted mainstream and expert opinion in this area, which absolutely needs to be pointed out – we are not simply having a ‘difference of opinion’ here.

And don’t be so naïve to think that saying you believe LGBT people are ‘abnormal’ is not an offensive statement to make. How do you think a member of another minority group would feel it you made a similar comment about them??…Please get real.

@ PJ Scully

Do you honestly believe that the kind of extreme religious views you spout on this forum (and which are invariably met with such negative reactions) are in any way representative of how most people think in modern Ireland – rosary beads at the ready, expecting gay people to marry someone of the opposite sex etc etc?!…You are clearly living in your own world, completely detached from the realities that exist around you. In fact, you are such a stereotype and caricature of an outdated, oppressive and long since dead Ireland that you are actually an asset to those of us campaigning for full equality in this area. That is one of the genuinely hilarious aspects of your interventions here!