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Dublin: 16 °C Wednesday 19 June, 2013

Column: UCC’s Nick Griffin invitation is a game – and fascism is the winner

The invitation to the BNP leader will spark a predictable cycle of outrage – but nobody involved is considering the real victims, writes Gavan Titley.

Gavan Titley

IT’S GROUNDHOG DAY, minus Punxsutawney Phil, but with added fascists. Just as the BNP leader Nick Griffin had come to terms with the disappointment of his cancelled invitation to TCD’s Philosophical Society, UCC’s Government and Politics Society has provided him with a new excuse to discover Ireland.

According to Ben English, the society’s chair, ‘our invitation is by no means a defence of what he has to say, rather it is a defence of his right to say it’. That logic could make for a busy year. Nobody is threatening Griffin’s right to speak freely, instead he has been issued with an invitation. The right to freedom from coercion is not the same as an entitlement to speak, or to be listened to, on a given platform. If you accept this basic conflation, and if you haven’t received your invitation to speak at UCC yet, your rights are being infringed. Give your defenders a call; they say late spring is the best time to visit the People’s Republic.

Like an episode of Fair City, flimsy logic is no impediment to the tedium of endless drama. And like all soap opera plots, this depends on a triangular relationship. This menagerie à trois depends, as the philosopher John Durham Peters explains, on a ‘threefold drama of the liberal enabler, the convention-buster, and the outraged bystander’. This is a drama that is cost-free for the freedom free-riders that ritually instigate it, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have consequences. The costs of racial harassment and political venom are passed on to ‘migrant-looking’ people who are never invited to speak, because even in this circus, they remain invisible.

For all it secular history, ‘free speech’ is casually held up like a liberal Eucharist. To invoke it is to appeal to a transcendental end-in-itself, and to place all criticism as blasphemy – look! There is somebody who does not believe in freedom of speech! However ‘free speech’ does not transcend politics, and debate, because of the basic fact that it involves making choices, is not a neutral arena. To understand how this ritual of ‘debate’ enables racist politics by pretending to stand outside of politics, we need to consider what unfolds in this drama.

‘For students seeking scandal, he is cheaper to import than an Elder of the Westboro Baptist Church’

Nick Griffin, whose divisive leadership of the BNP is under enormous pressure, increasingly depends on starring as the convention-buster. He probably benefits from the fact that, for students seeking scandal, he is cheaper to import than an Elder of the Westboro Baptist Church. Nevertheless, after a political career lived careering between the factions of the National Front and BNP, his impressive CV includes Holocaust Denial, conviction for incitement to racial hatred, and leadership of a party that, until 2010, denied membership to ‘non-whites.’

Griffin loves being invited to debates, while not taking too seriously the pursuit of rational exchange. As he put it in the 1990s, BNP supporters appreciated the organisation’s ‘ability to back up its slogan ‘Defend Rights for Whites’ with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate.’ The platform provided by a public forum is valuable strategically: it generates publicity, launders racist politics as legitimate options that deserve respectful engagement, and provides an opportunity to mobilize interest and support. Griffin is not interested in student societies in Ireland for the calibre of the intellectual jousting. As Brian Whelan has reported, the BNP has increasingly sought to develop links and provide support to extremist right-wing groups in Ireland, particularly with the aim of stirring up hostility to ‘migrants’ during the political-economic crisis.

Searching for ways to legitimise a politics that remains based in an ideology of racial hierarchy is a long-standing objective of the Far-Right. Ironically, a central strategy they use is playing the victim card. Immigration is being imposed on ordinary folks by a politically correct middle-class, but these real victims can’t speak of their fears without being branded a ‘racist’. Being invited to a debate allows a refinement of this strategy; if we get to speak, we get to ‘represent’ this voice, and what earnest middle class folks are going to say otherwise? If we don’t get to speak at the debate, then we gain a valuable media spectacle, whereby our victim status is enhanced.

‘Fascism is not explained by glib one-liners’

To a large extent, this tactic is political common knowledge. It clearly involves exploiting those who would host such a spectacle. The question then, is why do ‘liberal enablers’ offer themselves to be exploited?

In Saturday’s Irish Times, Donald Clarke noted the BNP’s desire for a ‘supposed status as suppressed, political outsiders.’ Political reality noted, he then went on to hoist the liberal Eucharist by arguing that: ‘if you don’t believe in free speech for fascists, then you don’t believe in free speech. If you don’t believe in free speech, then you are probably a fascist.’ In hoisting this Eucharist, he also hoisted a petard, as this article was published in the same week as Tom and Sally Ann Fitzgerald described how the Irish Times ‘butchered’ an article by their daughter, Kate.

Perhaps there is a posthumous buy-out clause that prevents the Irish Times editorial staff, in Clarke’s logic, from auto-mutating into fascists. Or, perhaps this obnoxious but hardly exceptional media industry incident illustrates how this kind of abstract logic ultimately has no meaning. It equates ‘fascism’ with bad things, which inevitably results in the realization that we all do bad things, and in the equation, fascism as a political logic, and network of movements, vanishes.

But fascism is not explained through glib one-liners. Fascists seek to ensure the coherence of the nation, a coherence that demands purging racially or morally degenerate populations through political violence. Opposing the circulation of a message that seeks to censor human life is not censorship. Organising against forces that threaten what little democracy we have is a basic value of democratic action, and social solidarity.

Clarke argues that ‘the thinking democrat should realize that the cause of anti-fascism is far better served by allowing such unsavoury individuals to speak.’ By this superficial measure, all the major British trade unions, including the National Union of Students, and most of the elected parliamentarians in the UK are ‘unthinking democrats’. Here Clarke comes up against the question that all of Griffin’s would-be Irish hosts must answer: what gives them special access to a truth that experienced politicians and campaigners in Britain appear to have unthinkingly missed?

A fuller understanding of democratic action explains why they adhere to a ‘no platform’ policy. Freedom of speech is a political right, as is freedom of protest. Many organisations in the UK enact these rights in refusing to be involved in promoting the BNP’s message. They do so out of an explicit solidarity with those that the BNP target. The more publicity and attention the BNP receive, the greater the threat they pose on the streets. By refusing to host or legitimate a message of racial hate that has political impact, a ‘no platform’ policy, such as that enacted in TCD, involved students, student groups, staff and unions in organizing democratically to have the event cancelled.

‘No one is obliged to provide the BNP with a platform’

No one is obliged to provide the BNP with a platform – it is not a question of rights. But basic democratic solidarity demands that people unite to prevent them attacking the rights of others, including the rights of ‘migrant-looking’ and lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered staff and students to live and work on a campus where they are not the targets of hate and vitriol. The BNP does not engage in debate to be rationally persuaded, and witty seven-minute speeches by Irish undergraduates are not going to usher them down the road to Damascus. Not providing a platform does not equate with stopping people from knowing what the BNP have to say – the whole reason for the invite is because we know precisely what they stand for. For everything else, there’s Google.

‘Liberal enablers’ no doubt genuinely hold the principles they espouse. But this is not enough to sustain the fiction that they are neutral actors, driven by a higher calling. Standing outside of struggle and political reality, they nod ruefully while lecturing people who actually experience racist and homophobic violence that, well, this is the price of freedom. But they don’t, and won’t ever be asked to pay that price. Without irony, how can one invoke freedom and ask others to pay for it? Clarke rehearses this patronizing performance of broad-mindedness twice; once with the usual, misguided dismissal of BNP voters as ‘morons’, and when he argues:

“The Phil can invite whomever it likes to its debates. It is, however, probably as well not to overstuff the Graduates Memorial Building with, say, anti-Semites, neo-fascists, cockfighters, gay bashers or eugenicists. Nobody has a right not to be offended. But it is good manners to avoid upsetting decent folk as much as possible”.

This is the problem with the ‘free speech’ denial of power, not in a nutshell, but in a snow globe. You shake it up, and the arguments and insults fall like snowflakes, covering everyone, but leaving the world more beautiful than before. Except it only does this if you imagine the world without massive differences of power, and without the realities of daily harassment, prejudice and violence that ‘migrants’ all over Europe experience. The ‘right not to be offended’ is a luxury item in this reality – that a writer imagines it as the worst that can happen illustrates the liberal fiction of a world where racism, violence and inequality don’t really shape people’s lives. Keep one eye on the news these days, and the resurgent power of the far-right, and the attendant violence, is obvious. In this context, one can pretend to be neutral. But you cannot claim that you do not know what is at stake, and that with that knowledge, you have actually taken sides.

Gavan Titley lectures in Media Studies in NUI Maynooth. He is the author, with Alana Lentin, of the recent book The Crises of Multiculturalism: Racism in a Neoliberal Age (Zed Books 2011). Information on the book, and further writing, can be found here.

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Comments (177 Comments)

  • On of the most irritating claims in this debate is that issuing an invite like this to a college debating society will result in Griffin’s views being “challenged in open, democratic, rational debate, so we can expose his lies and racism, defeat him with logical argument” etc.

    For those of us who have actually been to debates like this, it will be clear that the reality could not be further from what is claimed.

    The ‘debate’ masquerades as a serious attempt to challenge these views. What transpires is usually so degrading and insulting that it renders these claims as to the purpose of such ‘debates’ so ridiculous as to become completely meaningless, delusional at best but outright misleading of people who are unfamiliar with the form of such events at worst.

    I will try to paint the picture of what actually transpires at these things.

    Some chappie who has obvious illusions about himself will read the records, or correspondence of the society at the outset. There will probably be some quite edgy ‘joke’ bordering on outright racism involved as said chappie courts publicity and drama for himself given the controversy preceding the debate – cue nervous laughter from some, half hearted shouts of ‘shame’ from others, titillated ‘oohs’ and ‘aahs’ from the student intelligensia, mostly white and middle class it must be said.

    Five or six speeches from students, some of which will attempt to be serious, most of which will miss the point entirely, but at least one will probably be a ‘jokey’ type speech despite the gravity of the topic, cue table banging, raucous laughter etc, while invited guests other than the Griffin type token ‘free speech’er’ look at their notes nervously, as they were under the impression they had been invited to engage in a serious and meaningful debate about immigration rather than a mass platform of self promotion, not only for Griffin but for many of the student hack types involved themselves as well.

    The Griffin type makes his speech, ignores all points of information – cue hysterical outrage from studenty debater types all too keen to show that they absolutely *disagree* with his views (raising hand in pompous manner, shouting SIR! SIR! etc while trying to get him to take their POI, which he will refuse to do and simply read pre prepared propaganda speech instead), although of course they still *absolutely* agree with his right to read said hate speech, on their invite (which invite, I might add, is usually couched in such sycophantic terms that it would turn your stomach – I know because I have seen these invites before) in a supposed seat of respected university learning.

    After the charade of a debate is over, smug auditor of society will take a vote on the motion – All in favour of racism? All against? The Nays have it! – much clapping, cheering, yah boo sucks to Griffin, we beat your views and racism to boot, free speech survives! And as an invited guest of the society would he like to join us for a drink in the bar afterwards? Of course he would. No no, it’s on us.

    Smug auditor is congratulated and back-slapped for championing free speech at the end of year society appraisal – apparently the success of any given year is commensurate with the number of column inches devoted to the inevitable annual fascist invite – which media attention and drama, of course, was usually all said auditor desired in the first place when issuing the invite. Sadly the fact that this self gratifying phenomenon now occurs on an almost yearly basis does not seem to prevent the media finding it newsworthy every single time.

    Disgusting. Boring. Juvenile. Get over yourselves and change the record. For those of us who have been involved in this debate since the Justin Barrett L and H episode in UCD in 2004, it has become very, very tiresome to hear claims from each new generation of college debater types that somehow these events are victories for free speech and for rational debate. Any objective analysis of what actually occurs exposes these claims quite easily as fanciful, delusional, egotistical rubbish.

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    • Wow, that pretty much describes exactly what I imagine happening.

      I wish people would actually try and back up their claims that Mr. Griffin will look like a fool and be shot down. Otherwise, it’s just giving him a platform to spread his views. I’m not going to trust in a body of students that were dumb enough to mix up free speech and right to a platform in the first place to have a moral backbone.

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    • You have literally described in detail every debate I have ever attended in UCC and as I imagine exactly how the debate with Nick Griffin will play out.

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  • Speaking from Wales, you’re happy to keep him if you want. We don’t want him.

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  • I don’t want to respond to any of the comments made above, because I know from my own research on tackling racism in the 70s and 80s in the UK, that any comment here is unlikey to have any significant impact on any (even part-formed) opinion of contributors and readers.

    Instead,I want you to think of your best friend, or someone you love dearly. Really think about them now. Then imagine yourself in the street, you are kneeling down beside their bruised and battered body, smeared in their own blood. Bruised and battered because they are not exactly like you,bloody because their skin is a different colour, or their higher brain functions not as fast as yours…or any other of a myriad of things that could make them physically, identifiably different from you and others around you.

    Now, swallow the anger, step back from the scene, and use that emotional thought experiment to ask youself this question. Is this right? If it’s not right, how do we conduct ourselves, how do we organise our society, to stop this from happening? What impact do we have when we facilitate the expression of ideas that lead to this kind of behaviour towards others who are not the same?

    Yes these are naive questions.But they are the question that still remain to be posed and answered. And in danger of breaking my own opening rule, none of the contributions above has really persuaded me that it has addressed them.

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  • Freedom of speech is a fine and dandy concept. Incitement to hatred and stirring up violence is wrong. If Nick Griffin were to get up on his soap box in College Green and spout some rabid nonsense about homosexuals immigrants, paddies, blacks, jews etc. he would at least be moved on. But if does likewise at the invitation of our rarefied seats of learning it’s OK. In that context it’s freedom of speech and it’s good for the broad intellectual scope of those who know better. It reminds me of the Catholic bible with selected passages removed because of the likely misinterpretation of the uneducated classes with the full version for scholarly perusal only. Information is power and power is information, if the information challenges accepted dogma it’s censored. Julian Assaunge has the right to freedom of speech and if he were a nondescript British bullyboy like Griffin spouting rabid nonsense in an address to an obscure debating society or the like things would be fine. The eggheads would give a discreet clap Griffin would put away his papers and everyone goes home for their tea, no real harm done and the eggheads write up a few notes for their sociology classes.
    Why not invite him to address the Xmas shoppers on Henry St. Lets say at the corner of Moore St. where there’s a ready supply of rotten fruit and veg and let the democratic will of the people be the judge of his message.

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  • I think all this “Let him speak” is what’s actually the PC thing to say nowadays. He’s not likely to go out all guns blazing at a college debate. More likely to lure them in, sign them up for a subscription and then blast them with his tripe. And as Gavan says it’s the BNP target we should care more about.

    Noticed a lot of comments on immigration threads lately that speak in language not familiar to me and there us no doubt that the White Supremacist is trying to stir up divisive feelings in Ireland on the back of this economic downturn. It has a very superior tone and usually ends with the same line…

    Most Irish racism is motivated by ignorance and fear of lack, not feelings of superiority. I wish we could turn “fear of lack” to “lack of fear”!

    I’d show him the door.

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  • This articulates my sentiments exactly. I congratulate the authors on a brilliantly argued piece of writing and call to action.

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  • Freedom of speech has always been a struggle. It involves sacrifice on the part of those struggling for it – not their engagement in tabloid sensationalism, with the risk being passed on to communities in more vulnerable positions than their own.

    It’s time that privileged, middle-class students stopped playing games with the lives of migrants and minorities.

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    • Sacrificing what exactly? Your copy-pasted one liners have very little actually backing them up.

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    • Zakariya al-Ashiri was murdered by the Bahraini security forces for fighting for free speech. He risked his own life to cover the democracy movement in that country. That’s sacrificing in the struggle for free speech and is the kind of heroic action that won people what free speech rights they have across the world.

      Not stunts like this from morons in college debating societies, where the worst consequence they can expect is a red wine hangover. This has nothing to do with fighting for free speech.

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  • Pity these debaters are nowhere to be seen when it comes to actual free-speech struggles, like when the cops are battering students off the streets outside the Department of Finance, or threatening to rape women in Rossport.

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  • “It really worries me that 84% of this audience agrees with that statement, because the kind of people that say “political correctness gone mad” are usually using that phrase as a kind of cover action to attack minorities or people that they disagree with. I’m of an age that I can see what a difference political correctness has made. When I was four years old, my grandfather drove me around Birmingham, where the Tories had just fought an election campaign saying, “if you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour,” and he drove me around saying, “this is where all the niggers and the coons and the jungle bunnies live.” And I remember being at school in the early 80s and my teacher, when he read the register, instead of saying the name of the one asian boy in the class, he would say, “is the black spot in,” right? And all these things have gradually been eroded by political correctness, which seems to me to be about an institutionalised politeness at its worst. And if there is some fallout from this, which means that someone in an office might get in trouble one day for saying something that someone was a bit unsure about because they couldn’t decide whether it was sexist or homophobic or racist, it’s a small price to pay for the massive benefits and improvements in the quality of life for millions of people that political correctness has made. It’s a complete lie that allows the right, which basically controls media now, and international politics, to make people on the left who are concerned about the way people are represented look like killjoys. And I’m sick, I’m really sick– 84% of you in this room that have agreed with this phrase, you’re like those people who turn around and go, “you know who the most oppressed minorities in Britain are? White, middle-class men.” You’re a bunch of idiots.”

    Stewart Lee. Right as always

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  • You cannot pick and choose freedom of expression or speech. You either have it or you do not.

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    • And we don’t…

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    • Yeah, it’s pretty obvious isn’t it?
      And what part of inciting racial hatred is protected freedom of speech?
      I would suggest using some of the commonly underused and under appreciated freedom of thought and conscience on this one for a while.
      There seem to be a good number of people commenting here that have completely missed a number of key points that are very well explained in the original article.

      Well done Gavan Titley for this, it’s great to read such a refreshing analysis on the subject. :)

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  • Dave 21/12/11 #

    I have no issue with him speaking (even if I detest what he says), but once people realise this for what it is, which is an attempt by a group to foster racial ill will in a country which is suffering and desperately looking for someone, anyone, to blame.

    Now remember the last time that happened???

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  • Griffin’s BNP is fading fast. The reason is his intolerance of dissenting opinions. Numerous members have been expelled for supporting reform candidates. For some reason that news hasn’t reached UCC students’ union. Party finances are iffy too.

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  • Gavan’s article was good. But I would also oppose Griffin’s right to speak in any public place, anywhere. So according to most of the middle-class liberals here, that would make me a fascist. However, unlike most of you, I suspect, I have seen them at work and have fought them.
    I have seen them attack Irish solidarity demonstrations in London with the police backing them up. I have known them attack Irish pubs in Kilburn. I have seen the results of their attacks on other ethnic communities (often with the police backing them or pretending the attacks weren’t racist). I have been in demonstrations for socialist causes when they have attacked or where they attacked individuals as people dispersed to go home.

    I have studied how they operated in Italy, Germany, Spain and …. yes, Ireland. I am no hero but if I can stop them, I will. I know that finding platforms, some kind of legitimacy, encouraging their like to crawl out from the hidey-holes — are all necessary to bring them to the necessary point where they can begin their attacks. I will deny them that opportunity if I can — whatever any law or Constitution says — and will appeal to others to do the same. The consequences of not stopping them are my reasons.

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  • it’s on Wikipedia

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  • I suspect, Charles, that you might find ‘eccentrics whipping up a crowd’ a little less delightful if the crowd was a mob, whipped up in your direction. If you miss such events, toddle off to a BNP rally next time you are in the regions. Your delight is not sufficient reason for exposing people targeted by the BNP to the threat of humiliation and violence.

    So many arguments in favour of this invitation make some version of the same point; ‘I have no problem with it.’ That’s nice, but frankly who cares if you do, or don’t? The whole point of the kind of debate – that you are defending – is to find arguments that make sense in public, beyond personal whims and tastes.

    If you are asking to have your personal preferences take seriously politically, then you need to prove why your preferences carry more moral weight than the right of people not to be harassed.

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    • Would you speak against him if you were invited to UCC, Gavan?

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    • @Gavan – first of all, great article. But on your point – ‘If you are asking to have your personal preferences take seriously politically, then you need to prove why your preferences carry more moral weight than the right of people not to be harassed.’ and again that is an excellent point but if you deprive these people the opportunity to put these ideas forward you are in fact feeding into the ‘victim status’ they project which is more dangerous that allowing them speak because, they need to prove why their preferences carry more moral weight and I believe that the standard of intelligence and reason is high enough to see the non-sense the BNP spouts be rejected by the UCC students. I also believe that they will be resolute enough to address the points made to show that they have no ‘moral weight’.
      My point I guess is have fate in our students to see beyond the fear mongering and to make reasoned decisions. If you don’t you are depriving them of an opportunity to test their own moral courage.

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    • Hi James, no, I wouldn’t. My reason would be the same as John Palmer, who withdrew from the TCD debate when Griffin’s invitation was made public, I quoted him here in an earlier article on this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/17/nick-griffin-trinity-college-dublin

      The point Palmer makes is that it is a qualitatively different thing to debate people who hold racist or extremist views, from a member of a fascist organisation, with a track record of using debates as mobilizing platforms (and where BNP events are frequently accompanied by violence) and who is ideologically dedicated to cleansing society. People who characterise this as merely ‘holding repugnant views’ either do not know, or refuse to acknowledge this distinction. We hold fast to a fallacy that in debate, the best arguments win. They don’t, they don’t even stand a chance on this thread. To debate Griffin would be to legitimate, by engaging with him in a culturally important institution, an ideology of racial hierarchy (not matter how well-coded it is these days).

      Jim, I do see you point about trusting in students – the reason I have written about this is because I take them seriously, and the impact of their decisions seriously. They may well learn from this as an experience, but they can do that on a gap-year too. This lesson would be bought at a far greater cost, all of it transferred to people whose status is far less privileged, and far more precarious, than theirs. With great freedom, comes great responsibility, etc

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  • A friend of mine in Germany married with a German fellow, raising 2 kids, living in Berlin for 40 years once said to me. ” My husband and I, when we were raising our kids we always repeatedly told them” – “we talk to all and we listen to all except fascists and Nazis.”
    No platform anywhere in Ireland on these scum that opposes justice freedom and equality! No Pasara.

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    • @Glykol – Have fate in our students to see beyond the fear mongering and to make reasoned decisions. If you don’t you are depriving them of an opportunity to test their own moral courage.

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    • Jim, have you seen our students of today? No offense to every student, there are still some diamonds I’m sure, but they’re not exactly intellectualism squared these days. I’m sure most of them will be on the piss up before and after the debate.

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  • Very well put Gavan. This idea of universal freedom to ‘say what you want’ takes no account of the way people are positioned. Working in UCC, I know that the invitation extended to the BNP has led some of our ‘migrant-looking’ students to be concerned for their own physical safety. It has made some for the first time realise that they are not as protected and as welcomed as they initially thought, because those who support the ‘free speech for the BNP’ argument take a laissez faire attitude towards their welfare. As a gay white Irish man, I wonder why polite society balks at homophobic language, but won’t stand up to language that is threatening for the racialised and that attracts and incites racially motivated violence.

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    • Well said karl.

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    • @ Karl – if you are working in UCC why don’t you put forward a proposal to have someone from a left wing party come and offer an alternative to the BNP and if possible at the same time with someone considered middle of the road chairing the debate so that students are offered a balance view of the facts.

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    • Yes, Jim. Because that is the way this democracy thing works: just a catalogue of choices to decide upon.

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    • I would never knowingly give a platform in UCC to an organisation that threatens the safety and wellbeing of students and colleagues. A number of us have made our feelings clear on this to the UCC President.

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    • I make this point later but it is valid here too;

      “My point I guess is have fate in our students to see beyond the fear mongering and to make reasoned decisions. If you don’t you are depriving them of an opportunity to test their own moral courage.”

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    • @Eoin – I detect sarcasm but that IS what democracy is all about – the freedom to make your own choice.

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    • Karl I walked through UCC recently and didn’t happen to notice “migrant-looking” students cowering in fear and terror least they be set upon by crazed racists. Nice try at scaremongering though bringing in the whole racist element when the debate here is about freedom of speech. Are you seriously suggesting that a visit by NG will turn the students of UCC in to xenophobic rioters who will attack every non Irish person that they come across?

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  • I saw Chaudhury speak years ago when I didn’t hold the same views I do now. He justified 9/11 by talking about Palestine. Dangerous madman, wouldn’t give him the time of day. He was a smooth-talker but some of his hot-headed colleagues spoke too and let the cat out of the bag as to who they really were and why they had come- recruitment, justification, hate.
    No, he shouldn’t be given a platform, and the exact same logic applies to Griffin. Only it’s a lot more serious with Griffin- this country has a white majority, which provides fertile ground for him.

    @Jim, @E: I was asked to speak against Griffin in Trinity when the debate was first announced. I turned it down. I was not “turning my back on a challenge” but rather turning down an opportunity to grandstand against a straw-man opponent. However much of a photo-opportunity for me, this would have been horrifically irresponsible and short-sighted because of the wider impact on society of aiding the far right to organize in any way.

    He won’t speak in Cork. If any of ye can muster up an “I don’t agree with his views but think he should speak” campaign that’s bigger than the “no platform” campaign then I’ll throw up my hands and revise my views… but ye won’t.

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  • @Brian:
    Because, as documented in the article, the ‘arguments’ are nothing more than a pretence for political mobilization. That is well-documented fact, so the question becomes for you, are you in favour of that political mobilization, or not? And, the same question as I asked of Donald Clarke and others; what do you know that British politicians, trade unions, community groups and political parties don’t?

    @Joe:
    If that is the case, that you either have it, or do not, can you explain to me how political freedom of expression co-exists with libel law, blasphemy law, copyright and intellectual property, unequal access to communications, etc? The article unpicks precisely your reliance on just repeating a mantra, so, as you might guess, simply repeating that mantra at the end of the article doesn’t really cut it.

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  • Indeed, Eamonn, people are free to do that, as stated in the article. So while sputtering ‘politically correct tosh’ might have a pleasing feel, why not engage with the actual arguments?

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  • Alan 21/12/11 #

    There’s been a critical mis-reading of Gavan’s piece or rather, people haven’t bothered engaging with the arguments and have instead invoked this catch-all “free speech” spasm to justify the unjustifiable. Lets be clear: the BNP and others would do a great more harm to the many groups of people they dislike the more support they gained. Racism, homophobia among other things falls into the category of Not. Valid. Politics.

    A right to free speech doesn’t mean celebrating and promoting the views of despotic individuals whose philosophy and warped view of society would ultimately restrict (or worse) the rights not only of free speech but possibly of life to some people – the ‘non-whites’ Griffin et al don’t like.

    The rights non-nationalist, non-white, non-straight people – and whatever other threatened group this shower despise – have to live in a society without fear of being terrorised (and that terror being legitimated by hysterical acts such as these “debates”) trump Griffin’s right to be masqueraded around as both some sort of vile freakshow – Look! there’s still racists left in the world and we must defend them like an endangered species! – and also some sort of liberal totem for ill-defined rights they don’t even bloody believe in. (See Class War’s post. Various rights are trounced upon every other week in this society and these toffy debating clubs don’t lift a finger.)

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  • Have no time for his parties manifesto but would be interested to hear him try and defend it. As long as he doesn’t break the law let the man speak. The lot in the dail are talking sh*te the whole time at least he will certainly have a completely different brand of sh*te

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  • Friends and comrades of him, if not himself, were putting up posters in pubs across the water, back in the 80s reading “no blacks no Irish, no dogs allowed”. No platform for enemies of Democracy.

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  • Giving the bnp a platform legitimises what they stand for. Ucc are attempting to court controversy to get publicity.

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    • E 21/12/11 #

      I make no defence of with Nick Griffin’s views, or the fact that UCC are most definitely trying to court controversy and publicity.
      Just because most sane, rational people would not take one iota of what Griffin says doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t have a right to speak. More importantly though, people should have the right to challenge and debate what he says in public. The more we can publicly shame Griffin and his like in debates and such, the better.

      You should face up to a challenge and not turn your back on it.

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    • You can challenge.and debate all you want but there are people who will identify with the bnp because giving them.a platform to speak gives them legitimacy, it will be open season. Why offer them the opportunity to increase their support in a country that is already struggling economically, its an easy target. Borderline racists will be ready to welcome him with open arms.
      It will make the migrant community uncomfortable at best and scared at.worst, but its all I’m the name of debate and freedom.of speech so it must be good???
      I have seen him speak and he sickens me.

      Reply
  • Rory 21/12/11 #

    Great article Gavan.

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  • The lazy relativism being employed here is maddening. Apparently violating Freedom of Speech, which now covers the right to be offered a debating platform in UCC when everyone knows you’re just going to use it to shill your party and ideas rather than actually debate, NO OTHER MORAL MATTERS WHATSOEVER. The real effects of racism, homophobia and the violence attached, apparently either nobody believes in it or nobody gives a shit. The “Middle class Liberal” sentiment here is so unbearably obnoxious and it’s obvious so many people here have never been in the firing line as a marginalised person, or somehow think it makes them the “Bigger person” to act just as their overly-privileged upper middle class student brethren do.

    People have been raised on this overly simplistic system so seem to be incapable of thinking outside the box and anyone who disagrees, ironically, is a fascist, while they continually spout that rhetoric heavy in “agreement” and “Disagreement” as if someone getting a knife in the face for being gay is somehow a matter of opinion.

    It’s disgusting, and I can’t bear to be told in the youth of a country that’s sold it’s soul in this manner. “Liberal” does not have to mean “Faux Relativist” and aside from that the rise in “Libertarian” attitudes in this country is even more frustrating. I’m a more “traditional” Libertarian in the sense that I believe in actually maximising personal freedoms where we can, not picking one freedom we like, making it overpowered and overextended like some broken video game mechanic(either right to a platform, or property rights, depending on the argument).

    Most people here have obviously never even considered the Paradox of Tolerance, either. Here’s a word from Karl Popper -

    ” Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.”

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    • I think it’s quite clear, by now, that racist sentiments are not being kept in check by reason, as they are on the rise.

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    • If it makes me the “bigger person” because I’d rather live with my ideals intact rather than allow someone as low as Nick Griffin change them then so be it. I understand there are real world consequences to some things he may say but I hold ALL rights equal and try to find a balance between them.

      I actually mostly agree with what Karl Popper says here.

      “I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise.”

      Surely one way to keep them in check with “rational argument” is a public debate at a University!? It is not “quite clear” to me that “racist sentiments are not being kept in check by reason”. If it is on the rise it’s still too early in my opinion to see whether reason alone can prevail. A knee-jerk reaction to suppress by force any racist sentiment that’s curdling in society could have the opposite effect you’re hoping for.

      “we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal”.

      I agree with the sentiment as I understand there are limits to freedom of speech but in reality it can be difficult to prove and you cannot suppress all speech that may cause one person to harm another as it can be quite subjective at times. Where it is blatantly obvious however they should be prosecuted. Allowing Nick Griffin to walk that line publicly is a good way of catching him out if he ever puts a toe over it (I’m sure he’s probably had whole parades over the line before!).

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    • I have absolutely no idea that given the BNP’s continued association with racist violence that has not changed bar on the surface through the years, and is gaining public sympathy, that you can “Not see” how it’s being kept in check by rational arguments.

      Nick Griffin already has a ton of exposure for someone who’s free speech is supposedly under treath. Giving him access to a public debate platform especially on something like free speech legitamises what he has to say.

      Again the world is not just opinion. Racist and homophobic violence is very real and the BNP have had a part in it. I can’t stand these sheltered viewpoints. It doesn’t somehow make you more principled.

      Again nobody is talking about censorship again, which says to me that your own reaction is rather “Knee jerk”. People just do not think he should be afforded an additional platform, and they’re right.

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  • Politically correct tosh. People are free to say what they like, when they like and how they like, be it behind the steering wheel of a taxi or anywhere else. As long as it doesn’t break the law I’m fine with giving a platform to people to spout.

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    • Well said

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    • What sort of moral imbecile believes anything is justifiable as long as it doesn’t break the law? What you’re really saying here Eamonn is that “As as it doesn’t break the law I’m fine with privileged students assisting a fascist organisation in promoting racist violence against migrant workers”.

      Reply
    • “Make sure you only encourage people to hate immigrants within the bounds of the law” – the liberal position on racism…

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    • As Trotsky once said, “Scratch a liberal and you find a fascist underneath”.

      For a student society to invite this criminal, who would deny ALL of us our rights and is not open to any persuasion otherwise, is simply a provocation. In no way is it a contribution to freedoms of speech, a fine notion but with little reality.

      They might invite, say, a Traveller spokesperson. Or a homeless. But do they? No, go for the Nazi. Odd how it’s never a left-winger either, eh?

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    • Hugh, Freedom of speech: Subject to “public order and morality”, a qualified right of freedom of speech is guaranteed by Article 40.6.1°. or doesn’t the constitution of Ireland apply to you?

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    • No idea why you’re quoting the constitution at me Brian.

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    • Hugh you asked “What sort of moral imbecile believes anything is justifiable as long as it doesn’t break the law?” The answer to that is the circa 4.5 million people in Ireland that believe that freedom of speech is justifiable under Art 40.6.1 as long is it doesn’t break the law. I was going to explain it better but being one of those immoral imbeciles that upholds the Constitution I didn’t think that I would have had the ability to do so.

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    • Brian, there’s an elementary distinction between what is permitted by a constitution and what is justified by it. For instance, the constitution permits me to call you a knobhead, but (perhaps wisely) it does not consider me calling you a knobhead to be justified.

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    • Brian, free speech is not the same as a platform. Nick Griffin can come to Ireland to speak whenever he wants, in the same way as any European citizen. I oppose the invitation to him on the grounds that it offers him a platform in a prominent forum as an invited guest speaker. (The side effect of which is a massive free publicity boost to fascism and organised racism, and their introduction into the mainstream political dialogue).

      If freedom of speech rights were extended in this way then every person in Ireland is entitled to speak at the UCC Politics Society. Is that your argument?

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    • To deny freedom of speech is fascism.
      To deny freedom of speech to a fascist is simply arguing that my fascism is better than your fascism.

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    • Hugh, you are allowed to call me a knobhead as you so put it and if I were to challenge you on that you would have to justify it. How can you justify it if I don’t allow you a forum to express your views and justify them because I don’t like what you say? Who am I to deny you the freedom to speak because I don’t like your views? I might be in a small minority but what mandate does that small minority have to tell the majority that the shouldn’t listen to your views?

      Ronan as far as I know everyone is allowed to speak at the UCC politics society but you would have to check that with them. I’m not sure why you asked that question, are you infer the impression that certain people are banned from speaking there?

      The funny thing about your argument about free publicity is that it is people such as your self who are kicking up such a fuss about this are actually feeding the publicity. Fair enough you may have strong feelings on the matter which you are entitled to but did you ever stop to think that if Griffin was basically ignored people wouldn’t pay much attention to him. I certainly knew nothing about it until the whole left-wing, anti-fascist anti-racist etc lobby got into a tizzy. Griffin would have come and gone without so much as a whimper.

      As for telling people that he shouldn’t be allowed to speak or that they shouldn’t go to hear him, well that’s like waving a red rag to a bull! If someone tells me that I shouldn’t see, hear, think or study something because they say so then my reaction is twofold. Firstly, what is so taboo or dangerous that I shouldn’t seek to make up my own mind on and secondly I don’t need anyone telling me what to do or think just because they said so. It would be a fright to God to waste years of education just to roll over at the first sign of a placard or the holler of a megaphone.

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    • Strange of you to quote the text of the constitution but fail to refer to the particulars of the article under discussion. Who is talking about placing restrictions on freedom of speech? Why are you conflating the ‘right to freedom from coercion’ and the ‘entitlement to speak, or to be listened to, on a given platform’ in a way already identified by the article? Do you see this conflation as not worth considering? Have you actually read the article at all?

      What is at stake here is not whatever noxious emissions might circulate in the debating chamber, but the consequences -for others- that arise from the act of inviting a prominent racist -whose views are already well known- to speak at an important forum, with the prior knowledge that this person engages in such spectacles precisely because it serves his racist and fascist ends.

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    • “To deny freedom of speech is fascism”. Why do people keep repeating this. Fascism is a political ideology based on radical nationalism, anti-class, individualist identity based on factionalism, political violence and totalitarian dominance of society on the basis of co-operation by centres of power in the state and corporate sectors. It is also a historical phenomenon – that could occur again – but is based on specific circumstances and conditions.

      The BNP have their roots in the British fascist movement of Oswald Mosley. They advocate policies that are based on the political ideology. They can be called fascist. You can’t just throw the term around as a synonym for authoritarianism, as people are doing here.

      And it’s actually inaccurate in those terms too. This is about popular opposition by those in powerless positions – not on society committees – to his being given a platform. It’s not about the government restricting his free speech. It’s about democratic activism to stop the spread of hatred, and to counter the power and violence of racist activism. That’s got nothing to do with authoritarianism.

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    • Firstly Hugh yes I did read the article, I’m not one for commenting on the Journal by blindly posting comments on the first page that I come across. Next to your question about restrictions and coercion. The TCD statement on the matter said ” Following careful review of operational and safety issues, the Philosophical Society and the College are now not satisfied that the general safety and well being of staff and students can be guaranteed”. This would imply that anyone attending the debate could come under threat as a result before during or after the event. I was in UCC in 1999 when David Irving was speaking though I wasn’t there to see him, I was just passing through. The resulting riot http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/press/items/CorkExaminer161199.html is probably why TCD decided to cancel their debate. No doubt there will be another threat of the same action again in UCC by minority groups who laughingly decries the violence of the Right wing only to use it themselves. Are you telling me that if I chose to go to that debate that I possibly would not be restricted from doing so by these groups or that I would not be abused, intimidated or possibly coerced into not to enter the debating hall? Obviously we both can’t predict future events but certainly going by past one’s I think that it is fair to say that tensions will be high to say the least.

      As for your second paragraph I’m not sure who the “others” are that you refer to. It seems people are forgetting that this a debate about freedom of speech and not racism. As you pointed out Griffin is a racist and yes we all know his background and what he is about. The people that are attending the debate will all have had a good education so it”s not like he will be addressing a mob. They will also have a chance to counter his views with views of their own. If you are so worried about what he has to say why not report him to the police, take out an injunction or some other legal challenge.

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    • “Democracy is talking itself to death. The people do not know what they want; they do not know what is the best for them. There is too much foolishness, too much lost motion. I have stopped the talk and the nonsense. I am a man of action. Democracy is beautiful in theory; in practice it is a fallacy. You in America will see that some day.”

      Benito Mussolini

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    • brian and hugh….. by far the most entertaining read since i started following the journal
      im not trying to be smart or thongue in cheek in any way i was genuinely entertained !! :)

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    • Glad to spread a little bit of happiness Ger. :-)

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  • its a win win situation, he either loses the debate and goes home looking like the clown he is or he wins and it provokes a serious examination of us as a society.

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    • Nick Griffin and organised racism have already won by being invited and given the platform. It’s a game, a charade. He does these things gain legitimacy and publicity. He doesn’t care about liberal, middle-class student opinion. If he comes he’ll read a prepared speech, take the criticism with a smirk, and know there’s a bigger agenda at play.

      Sometimes the debate itself is the most important material thing. Sometimes the debate is a sideshow to a greater material negative (publicity, encouragement and organising opportunity for Irish racists). And in that case the only winners are fascists and organised racists, regardless of the outcome of the charade/debate.

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  • I’m curious, if it’s so necessary to expose people like Griffin as bigots, why can’t we do it without them there? Why do we have to invite people like that, who are not exactly skilled debaters in the first place? What happened to debating societies playing devils advocate?

    Why is it necessary to have a man with a history of associating with violent thugs here to debate it? And why have someone who would block free speech for minorities if he was in power comment on free speech?

    It’s so idiotic and naive. If people are really serious about exposing racism, hold a workshop, do something worthwhile. I’m sick of being abused as an autistic person, with people being impatient with my poor social skills etc. so I’m organising an awareness gig for next year.

    Inviting an evil man like this to show up racism is like insisting on inviting IMF officials to the Occupy camps otherwise we can’t show why Neoliberalism is bad.

    Reply
    • Having those who espouse a point of view speak to defend it is more telling than a devils advocate because it exposes their flaws in a way that a skilled orator/debator would never allow to happen. I agree with you that it is distasteful to allow someone of his ilk to speak but I also happen to believe that it is the best way to expose how wrong he is. Let a light be held up to his beliefs and see how long they stand up. Also, who decides which groups, individuals, points of view are worthy of a platform?

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  • I see nothing wrong with the invitation to UCC. I would quite enjoy attending too if I had the time. I find it fascinating to listen to people with polar opposite views or eccentrics whipping up a crowd. Watching David Icke lecture in Trinity was amongst the highlights of my time in college.
    I’ve spent a lot of time working with people in regional areas of the UK and casual spite towards immigrants is rampant there. Griffin represents 564,000 people who voted for his party in the last UK general election. Aren’t we mature enough to offer these people a platform, regardless of whether we hold their views repugnant or not?

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    • Does your ‘we’ include ‘migrant-looking’ people at UCC? Because it does, another way of posing your question might be: Aren’t ‘migrant-looking’ people at UCC mature enough to offer these people a platform, regardless of whether they feel threatened and intimidated by the BNP’s history of racist violence or not?

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    • The beauty of free speech – Don’t like, don’t attend. Do you really think we should ban all speakers who will offend a certain section of society? That’s a heavy price to pay for guaranteeing sanitised speeches. I personally think he’s an arsehole but arseholes get to speak too!

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    • As far as I know David Icke hasn’t spent his entire adult life involved with political racist groups. I’m sure it is fun listening to his crap about lizard-people under Buckingham palace but I’m not sure how relevant he is to this debate.

      The BNP did not spring from a “causal spite towards immigrants”. Rather it’s a group that, in this or its National Front guise, has been around for decades. Dedicated racist organisations play a huge role in CREATING this “casual spite”. They conflate immigration-related tensions with racism, and shape, rather than just reflect, public discourse. They harvest votes by turning housing and welfare issues into “cultural”, racial issues.

      Now, is it “mature” to invite the BNP to a prestigious platform in Ireland, helping them and like-minded people to build a similar organisation here, so that we can give them a similar monopoly on the issue of migration? Get the hell out of here

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    • If you read what I said – ‘or eccentrics’ David Icke would come under that category. I never called him a racist. I believe he holds the views of a lunatic just like Griffin does.

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    • @manus – ‘Get the hell out of here’

      Really?

      I’m expressing my opinion which is as valid as the next person’s.

      And yes, I do believe it is mature to allow the racist speak. You must give your fellow Irish citizens some credit and allow them to hear his arguments, systematically take them apart and dispose of them.

      Suppressing ideas (even radical ones) is the hallmark of totalitarian societies in this time and years gone by.

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    • G Charles Osborne you and the majority of others with this argument make it from a position where you are not affected by the propogation of the kind of views the BNP promote.

      People have offered good reasons *why* he shouldn’t have been given this platform. All the opposition does is use the same tired “You’re the real fascists” nonsense. It’s tiring, and no real dialogue is occuring because some people only support free speech because they’re expected, not because they’ve reasoned why it’s a good idea.

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    • @ g charles osborne
      re “get the hell out of here”
      Sorry I lost the rag. What happened was, that point about it being “mature” to help racists (and to pretend they’re as harmless as David Icke) betrayed so much ignorance, complacency, snobbery, and a total “ivory tower” attitude, that I was awed. Words could not explain so I said what I’d say to you in person: “get the hell out of here”
      express away, man, I wasn’t being “totalitarian” at you…

      Reply
  • Who cares if they invite him? Let people listen to his drivel and realise for themselves how stupid his policies are.

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    • Jack, the article itself, and half the comments since then have been a fantastic argument against your position. You seem to have ignored this.

      It is the fact that so many young people think and act as you do that has people worried. People are not showing the capability to discern logic from an argument here in the slightest.

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    • I haven’t ignored any argument, I have simply disagreed.

      The way young people act has you worried? You seem to consider the average Irish person to be impressionable and unintelligent. This is what you are saying by censoring this material.

      Have some faith in general humanity and allow everyone to listen to, and dismiss, the BNP without the need for you to filter what you deem them too stupid to asses for themselves.

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    • Jack, you have ignored them. If you disagree, you take the points one by one and point out your problem with them. You’ve just made a comment that’s in ignorance to everything that’s been said thus far.

      Right now you are being a poster child for the intellectual laziness that leads people to push these relativist arguments.

      Nobody is talking about “censoring” anything and your use of that word is just proof of your ignorance here. Whether or not you give him a platform isn’t an issue of censorship, it’s whether or not you. You cannot declare a breach of this to be somehow MORALLY WRONG when it’s quite clear that people advocating this argument are pushing an insane relativist worldview where racism and homophobia don’t really matter, don’t affect people, don’t kill people, they just “simply disagree” with them. From someone who’s actually suffered through these things and isn’t naive about them, your argument drives people mad.

      Some people are against the propagation of racist, homophobic views and have a right to act on it by petitioning institutions to keep people who can’t hold a mature debate anyway out. Arguments like yours are made entirely in ignorance not only of the argument here, but of history too. Ideas can spread. People are susceptible to racism. There is so much institutionalised and even internalised racism, sexism and homophobia in modern culture still it’s unbelievable. I have no idea why then you’re telling me to have faith in people. I got thrown out of a house by a group of UCC students for being transgendered – and you’re then turning around and telling me to have faith in the same kind of people?

      I do not have “some faith in general humanity” because I know how many members of general humanity act. Even in first world countries there are some areas that are practically inhospitable towards homosexuals. My personal life experiences can not afford me this faith you speak of.

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  • Debating could really do with a kind of ‘Godwin’s law’ (Voltaire’s law, perhaps?) to deal with the apparent blindness in discriminating between somebody’s right to speech and their being offered prestigious university platforms in which to say it.

    Well done to Gavan Titley on this article and for getting down in the trenches of the journals comments section.

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  • Fascism is what we are living under now…. after all, the privatisation of profit and socialisation of loss is textbook fascist economics. If we willingly accept being subject to the the fiscal part of the fascist textbook why not go the whole hog?

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  • While I do think the best way to beat the morons of the BNP is to destroy their arguments and show them up for the utter jackasses that they are, It is important to note that Fascist groups could care less about being beaten in an argument, if that was the case the Nazis would have never have got going. I do not favour free speech for a group who will use it as a platform to deny others free speech among other rights.

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  • Freedom of speech is protected by Article 40.6.1 of the Irish constitution, but it’s not absolute protection. “Public order or morality or the authority of the State” shall not be undermind when expressing this right.

    However Article 40.3.2 of the Constitution states “the State shall, in particular, by its laws, protect as best it may from unjust attack (and, in the case of injustice done, vindicate) the life, person, good name and property rights of every citizen.”

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  • ‎”I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,” Voltaire.

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    • Why even bother posting a quote everyone has heard? It’s again, for the thousandth time, not about freedom of speech, but whether someone should be afforded a platform. I think the lack of education in these regards is a big problem in our culture and why there are so many ignorant remarks being made here.

      Here’s a better quote.

      “Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.”

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    • Hers another one, as Trotsky once said, “Scratch a liberal and you find a fascist underneath”.

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    • The problem is that Voltaire never said, or wrote that line – it is an aphoristic summary of his reaction to book burning, coined by E. Beatrice Hall in a book from 1906, The Friends of Voltaire. For that matter, the lego brick argument that free speech is constrained only by refraining from ‘shouting fire in a crowded theatre’ is similarly misunderstood. It was used by the Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes in a decision confirming a conviction for seditious publications during WW1(advocating resistance to the draft). In other words, it is not a phrase generated by the defence of free political speech, but equates that speech with shouting fire, as a basis for suppressing it.

      That’s the problem with extracting pretty ethical phrases from their historical context of political struggle, and wearing them on t-shirts as evidence of superior liberal detachment. The idea of that detachment was that it came through study and knowledge, not act as a buy-out from it.

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    • Iain. Why don’t you make your own mind up and stop quoting others. Boring!!!

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    • Gavan you are a legend, I was just about to post about the constant mis-attributation of that quote.
      Mis-quotations make me mad

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    • Voltaire was also an anti-semite, he spends about a third of ‘Dictionnaire Philosophique’ disparaging Jewish people.

      And he was a racist who not only believed that human ‘races’ had separate origins, and that the white one was most ‘civilised’, but also that black people had inferior intelligence and ability.

      All-in-all he’s exactly the right person to be (mis)quoting, mixing infantile notions of ‘free speech’ with acute racism. Shame, as Gavan pointed out, he never actually said that.

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    • Great to know that lads. That quote always makes me mad. If anyone had actually said it it would have been a pretty stupid thing to die for anyway. [Smacks head]

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    • I’d like to see how many of these Celtic Tiger Cubs would actually go along with Voltaire’s example.

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  • Fascism WOULD be the winner if he wasn’t allowed to come here. The dictionary definition of fascism mentions “suppressing opposition”. That is exactly what revoking his invitation would be.

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    • Alan 21/12/11 #

      And what of the freedoms those ‘non-whites’ that Griffin wants to liquidate from Britain?

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    • Urgh

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    • What fucking dictionary are you reading?

      That’s like saying Ayn Rand’s Objectivism is about “being an individual”. Truly a horrific oversimplification. As I’m sure someone has pointed out, Fascism is characterised by a number of political talking points, mostly extreme monoculturalism, authoritatianism & social conservatism. If it’s possible that denying Nick a platform in some way protests minorities – then it’s the opposite of Fascism. People can still be for freedom of expression, and deny this man a platform. They can still be for giving a wide range of views a platform, far more wide than a BNP government would allow, and still deem one or two inappropriate.

      Why is it that most of the people typing “No YOU’RE THE REAL FASCISTS” like some petulant child tend not to type much else besides that? Where is the meat in your argument?

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  • This so called “liberal” is all for free speech, excpet when you disagree with what he says.

    The banning of Nick Griffin from Trinity was fascist in itself and so is any attempt to deny him an opportunity to speak his mind.

    I completely disagree with everything the BNP stands for but when Nick Griiffin speaks, he does more for the left-liberal multiculturalist agenda than Labour, Gavan or anyone else could possibly do!!!

    Griffiin is an elected MEP. We saw what happened when Nigel Farage MEP from UKIP came here to campaign agianst Lisbon. He was more help to the YES side :D

    Us Irish don’t seem to like people from across the pond telling us what to think!

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    • Not all of us are liberals mate. I deny you the right to freedom of speech if you’re going to slander someone else’s character, religion, or race. And it’s also the law.

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    • Alan 21/12/11 #

      As covered in the article, not giving someone a platform to speak is not the same thing as restricting someone’s so-called “right” to speak their racist, homophobic vitriolic bile in public – Griffin isn’t facing imprisonment for holding his rotten “views” so thus there is no threat posed to him. As pointed out numerous times – did you read the article? – it is Griffin and associates that pose threats to others. The right to terrorise does not supersede the right for one to live in a society without being terrorised.

      By the way, define “us Irish” for me please.

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  • Hard not to feel that the No Pasaran brigade and Nick Griffin are motivated by a sense of self-importance and are just playing circus politics. Its just lifestyle activism.

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    • No. We’re motivated by fighting racism, organised and violent in particular. They’re motivated by white supremacy and the purging of non-whites from Europe. I dunno what nonsense you’re going on about but activism is far from a “lifestyle choice” for me. I have migrant friends and family, the family members in particular come from countries where they have been subject to racist abuse. Don’t insult those of us who give a shit about racism with your “lifestyle activism” bullshit please. It’s neither easy nor convenient to work as an anti-racist activist.

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    • Thanks Rónán for your modern take on the “White man’s burden”.

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    • It has nothing to do with the ‘white man’s burden’. We fought this in Trinity with the support of migrant and anti-racist groups. And societies like Q Soc (our LGBT society), J-Soc (Jewish Society) and the Muslim students’ association.

      White men defending the “values of western civilisation” by promoting fascism and enabling violence. That’s the liberal, middle-class position here and it’s a hell of a lot closer to the ‘white man’s burden’ than anti-racist activism.

      Glib, wannabe clever one-liners on a topic like racism don’t make you look intelligent, Tim. They make you look like a smarmy git.

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    • Tim. Racism is a topic that is coming to the fore a lot lately in Ireland. Most people find reading others posts interesting as I find yours on other topics. Don’t usually reply to you either as I usually agree with you. It’s not like you to be so glib, shut-up-ish and dismissive. Don’t do it again! ;)

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  • if we dont let him speak were no better than the UK who refused Sinn Fein a platform for years. racism is rife in our country so let them form a party so they can be confronted in public!

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  • People seem to be forgetting that this is a debate. This is as much an invitation for him to be harassed as it is an invitation to speak. Besides that, I think that the invitation to invite people we don’t agree with to speak is fundamental to democracy. We may well learn a few things from Nick Griffins speech, whether we agree with it or not, we may learn about what kind of individuals can support this kind of organization, what their views on important topics are etc etc. All of this will soon be very important as, under his leadership, the BNP has been fairly successively gaining in the polls.

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  • I’m sorry but people who are against him speaking seem quite pathetic to me. Are you really that afraid of what he has to say? It’s not about giving him a platform where he can express his views but about putting his views on a platform where they can be challenged. I personally think he’s an evil arsehole with idiotic beliefs but you should face them head on instead of trying to hide them under the carpet and pretend they doesn’t exist or that more people don’t think like that.

    Griffin’s motivation for wanting to speak is important as he obviously beliefs it will benefit him by doing so. I would argue he sees it as a win-win situation; if his appearance gets cancelled he can continue to play the victim of having his freedom of speech suppressed and if it goes ahead he gets a platform to speak as he obviously believes he is correct. Unfortunately for him he is not correct. So the only way to actually beat him is by allowing him to speak and shooting down each argument and lie one at a time. You could also just have everyone everywhere ignore him but you’d be deluded if you’d think that’d actually work. People will hear him speak and people will follow him or ideals similar to his. All you can do is be vigilant in expressing the truth about his beliefs. Inviting him to an open platform where they can be challenged openly is part of that.

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    • You try challenging them. There is no talking or reasoning with them. They are not open to reason. They think there’s a genocide attack on whites. They’re a scary lot. Trust me.

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    • You don’t have to convince him or people who support him they’re wrong. You just ensure the truth is there if they ever decide to come out of the bubble of delusion they hide in. By challenging them you ensure as best you can that more people won’t fall for the lies that are spouted.

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    • But he’s not the only one who can’t be reasoned with. People will be swayed by a particularly emotive argument rather than logic and reason. Mid recession, there’s a lot of racist sentiment and this kind of thing can validate it.

      Challenging his beliefs only appeals to people who already disagree with him. Most Fascist groups took advantage of these platforms – the weren’t defeated by them.

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    • You think people who rely on an emotional basis to believe something require this type of “validation”!? Prior to him speaking at a University they say to themselves “yes he makes some good points about the n***ers, gypsies and Pols but if only he was allowed speak at a recognised forum of higher learning I would be able to get on board with his fascist agenda”!

      I’m no expert in history so you’ll have to show me where people like Hitler discussed their beliefs in an open public forum where they were challenged rather than spouting their side only at public meetings to crowds that already mostly agreed with them. I thought their whole schtick was to suppress opposition? I know a lot of people who became Nazis said they did so because they got sucked into the emotion of the crowd. From what I’ve seen here in this forum there would be a lot of hostility towards Griffin (and rightly so) so he’d have to be some orator to get a crowd not primarily made up of his supporters on his side. The best argument against a situation like that is that it may make some neutrals who already have some sympathy for his position feel sorry for him but that’s not the sort of response a wannabe leader looks to evoke.

      Besides you could also make some emotional arguments of your own. I’ve seen several people mention some of the comments he and the people he was involved with over the years have made about the Irish. Reiterating them would be bound to sober up some of his would-be supporters that are on the fence.

      Open forums are where bad ideas go to die… why do you think fascists try to suppress them!!!

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    • There is absolutely no need for Nick Griffin to be there to discuss the pros and cons of racism. Inviting him does legitamise him. Not every racist is purely driven by emotion in the same way that some dramatic child is. Many people are embarassed to hold racist views because of how outdated or immoral they’re seeing. The idea that you can hold these views, even to the extent of having connections with violent thugs like the EDL, does indeed legitamise a lot of these feelings.

      A platform is a platform and you’re incredibly naive if this is going to be a real debate. He will not deal with points and will not admit to falsifiability. It will be no different from a typical podium except with the occasional incompetent student debater making a jokey speech they probably don’t really even believe in that strongly or they wouldn’t have invited him in the first place.

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  • Trinity college withdrew their invitation to Nick Griffin but had no problem inviting and purchasing flights and hotel accomodation for Anjem Choudry, a British born spokesman for the pro-al Qaeda al-Muhajiroun group. They had to cancel that invitation too though, but only after former Taoiseach John Bruton threatened to pull out of that event.

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  • Over half a million British people voted for the bnp (however unadvisedly) and that is what gives them a platform. Let the fool speak, and trust the students to reachtheir own conclusion. Anything else smacks of liberal mistrust of the people. Don’t treat us like idiots, we dont need to be kept in the dark or hidden from the bogeyman.

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    • Why shouldn’t we treat you like idiots when you keep using horrible, intellectually lazy logic though? From my experience with these kind of comments, and being in college in general, Irish students do not know how to debate nor discern a good argument.

      Or am I not entitled to this viewpoint under your version of “Free speech”?

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  • It’s terrible how people are going to be chained up, tied down and forced to listen to what this man has to say. What kind of a country has Ireland become where people are forced to listen to someone they don’t want to. It’s dreadful. It’s….oh, this is a voluntary thing.
    If you don’t agree with his views, don’t go.

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    • Thats the problem…people who do agree…

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    • ^ or more specifically, people who are on the fence, embarrassed of being racist/homophobic who will have their views legitamised by this.

      Since when does giving someone a platform never result in that viewpoint spreading? Seriously? Do you think the Facists or Nazis would have been able to rise to power without a platform?

      All this “trust in our students” bollocks – no thanks.

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  • Those who believe that fascists, homophobes, racists etc. should be silenced nearly always oppose freedom of speech on the grounds that hate speech can give an “opportunity to mobilize interest and support” of extremists. Of course the people opposing Nick Griffin and others from speaking never suggest that they might be influenced by such views. Because, of course they know the difference between right and wrong. They are part of the post-liberal intelligensia where they have defined the boundaries of our society. Usually these people are high in cultural capital, well educated but often incredibly patronising. Their argument centres around the idea that others will be influenced by Nick Griffin et al. and these people need to be protected. In other words the rest of us are too weak to be stop the power of Nick Griffin. Instead we should allow Aodhán Ó Ríordáin or Gavan Titley censor what we can and cannot hear or see. Because of course, in their minds, they are the enlightened ones.

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    • You really don’t get it, do you? It’s not about what Nick Griffin might say at the debate to a few Voltaire quote-addled soi-disant liberals. It’s about the consequences of an important forum inviting him to speak. Consequences in terms of ‘realities of daily harassment, prejudice and violence’. Can you say there will be no such consequences? Or is it just that you couldn’t give a toss because those realities don’t (negatively) affect you?

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    • That is it exactly. It is the moralizing that irritates people, the righteous preacher style, not their views. They can hang Griffin for all I care.

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    • Did you just ignore everything that was written in the aritcle, and the comments since?

      I don’t feel like repeating myself, so please just read my last few comments for a takedown of your incredibly lazy position.

      The most obnoxiously middle class people here are the “Let them speak” crowd for sure. Nick Griffin does not need to be protected more than vulnerable minorities and LGBT.

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  • Primary function of any student society is to provide entertainment. Griffin always buckles under pressure and it amuses to see.

    By your logic every liberal, socialists, conservative, Catholic, feminist, environmentalist, republican, unionist, democrat, trade unionist and gay rights activist, as they all support violence against somone. In fact anyone who votes or supports any political action is a potentially a terrorist.

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  • You’re also, I’m sorry to say, a disgrace to the notion and principles of a university.

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  • Surely in order for young people in this case Students to gain a balanced view of all views, they should allow a person with these views to speak, as long as other leaders with other views are also offered the same platform. Its likely that many of the students who go to find out what this sort of viewpoint really looks like and have no intention of supporting it. How can you oppose it, if you dont know what it is?

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    • We do know what it is. If you don;t then look it up on google, The last thing Ireland needs during a recession is for racist politics to be taken as anything other than a poor joke. We achieve this by giving no credit whatsoever to the ideology. No one is preventing UCC students from going to the BNP web page and finding out for themselves.
      We will stop leaders of organisations who have been consistently involved in racist attacks from being legitimised by being hosted by a prestigious platform at the publics expense.
      No racism in our schools
      No pasaran

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    • Why is it necessary to give someone who believes in violence against those of different race or sexual orientation(if not always openly) a platform?

      And since when do people not know what it is? People have seen racism, they know what it is.

      Do you seriously deny that it’s impossible to use a platform to spread an idea? It’s this sheer disconnect with reality that’s bothering me here.

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  • Let him speak afterall isn’t that what freedom of speech is all about?

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  • Lamb 21/12/11 #

    This isn’t about freedom of speech or giving the BNP a platform to spout their waffle. No one is listening to this guy thinking ‘I like the sound of this’. This is an opportunity for sociology students to see a bigot who operates in the political arena and how they delivery their propoganda. These students spend 4 years in college reading up on people like the BNP, they should get the opportunity to actually see one before they go off writing their theses.

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    • Dermot, no need to under-estimate your own cultural capital, you’ve managed to summarize some Spiked cliches rather accurately. Unfortunately, the accuracy stops there. The article nowhere mentions ‘silencing’ or ‘censorship’, though telling that you can only form the argument in these terms. Nor does it spend any time discussing such spurious ideas as ‘influence’. You wouldn’t be the first to throw shapes on the Internet and hope it sticks, but to conjure an entire synopsis?

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  • All political debates should be stopped as they are just fronts for politial mobilisation. Incidentally, I have a lot of time for left/liberal viewpoints on society, but when you hear the cut of what some people on here are saying it gives you a flavour of what they would be like in power, i’m not so sure that Stalinism is a history lesson that could never be repeated.

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  • I have the impression that teachers of Media Studies tend to lean heavily to the left and that that has a significant influence on the mindset of journalists who emerge from their departments. Am I wrong?

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    • Yes.

      The media in this country is corporate owned or state-run (where the state has only ever been governed by right-leaning governments). The journalists they hire, the ones who actually get careers in the industry, reflect this. Not critical enough of those in power – the wealthy and well-connected – and certainly nothing like “left”.

      Most are post-political neoliberals who spend more time reprinting the press releases of powerful institutions or reporting the agenda they set than engaging in critical journalism.

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  • t

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  • Freedom of speech does not encompass or require the obligation to provide a platform for the expression of that right. Will UCC also be inviting the KKK, extremist Islamic fundamentalists or neo Nazis to their campus? Im sure if they are so concerned about freedom of expression they will make sure not to leave any groups out! The tax being used to fund this society should be stopped immediately. Nice article Gavan

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