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Dublin: 16 °C Sunday 19 May, 2013

Opinion: Ireland is sleepwalking itself into a colossal mess over integration

Almost one in five of the population was born in another country, but how often do you see a teacher, Garda or TD from another country, asks Killian Forde.

Killian Forde

THE ONE CONSTANT IN Irish public policy-making is the ability to delay, deny and prevaricate until something blows up in our faces.

The response to the property bubble, the abuse of children, and discrimination in the north all happened too late from a policy perspective, and what began as a challenge ended up as a fiasco that needed to be fixed.

Despite the soul searching , blame attribution and cries of “never again”, over the past few years it appears that our little country is once again sleepwalking itself into a colossal and expensive mess.

Reflect on this: in your day-to-day life, how many teachers, Gardaí, TDs, councillors, TV presenters, business leaders, media commentators and other key influencers do you see who are immigrants? I would suspect few or none is  the experience for most people in Ireland.

Yet the most recent census shows that 17 per cent of the population is foreign born. It’s like almost one in five of our citizens are invisible. Aside from token representation, immigrants are absent from the power, decision making and consultation on the policy, practices and operation of the State.

Racism in Ireland is underreported

In addition,studies and surveys have shown that discrimination and racism in Ireland is a chronic problem.

  • In 2008 a European wide survey done by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights showed that Ireland had one of the worst records for discrimination. More than half of those from sub-Saharan Africa stated that they had suffered from discrimination. Ireland also scored highest from Eastern Europeans resident in the country with 26 per cent claiming they had been victims of racism of discrimination. By contrast the corresponding figure for Eastern Europeans in the UK was only 11 per cent.
  • In 2010 a survey of post primary teachers done by the TUI and the Equality Authority showed that 46 per cent of teachers were aware of racist incidents in the previous month.
  • In a survey carried out by Millward Brown Lansdowne last summer of TDs, 60 per cent of them reported being exposed to racist sentiments on the doorsteps whilst canvassing.
However despite these indicators the official Garda figures don’t bear this out. In 2010 the total number of racist incidents recorded by An Garda Síochana was 122. By contrast in England and Wales for the same year it was 51,187.

Hate crime figures

On a per person basis the official figures suggest that England and Wales is nearly forty times more racist than Ireland. This flies in the face of the European study which suggests Ireland is more than twice as racist.

The frequency and experience of racism can be seen as a symptom of poor integration.

Ireland has a choice

Ireland has a choice: it can follow most of its history and be reactive to events and changes in terms of public policy or it can change the way it works, recognise the huge potential Ireland’s immigrants offer and provide supports that ensure their full participation in the economic, political, sporting and social sectors of the country.

While we recognise the serious pressure on the States finance’s our concern is the need to promote and facilitate integration has been dropped by this Government.

Since they have come to office the Civil Service’s cross departmental Integration Committee has never met, the Ministerial Council on Integration has also never met and, unlike the previous government, no junior Minister has been given the responsibility for integration.

These necessary co-ordination mechanisms cost little to run and yet they have been dropped by the new government.

There is some good work being done; Minister Quinn’s review of patronage is positive in promoting diversity, Minister Shatter has been active and effective in his area, and his Office of the Promotion of Integration despite dwindling budgets make a strong impact.

However our overarching view is that there is no helicopter view being taken by the government to promote integration or eliminate the structural discrimination in State structures and institutions that prevent the meaningful participation by migrants. This can drift on but the longer it takes for migrants to feel fully involved, the more likely it will that they feel excluded and the cost of that social dislocation will be enormous.

Killian Forde is the CEO of The Integration Centre, Ireland’s only national organisation focusing on Integration policy.

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Comments (133 Comments)

  • I think people need to think back to the times when this country and my own (Scotland) had a similar situation going on with our own population. We were dirt poor, starving, dying, persecuted, being driven off our respective lands and forced to go to another country because we wanted a better life for our families…some people have short memories.

    Integration will never truly work for the simple reason that the human race won’t allow it. We will always have division between cultures and lack of acceptance of anothers values.

    When a race, culture or landmass opens up its borders in good times you will always get the good with the bad. Just like when the Irish went to America or The Scottish went to New Zealand and Canada. There were good people and bad people.

    A little tolerance goes a long way.

    I have no issue with people coming from other countries. It is the country’s duty to ensure that they enforce the laws and policies of the land to advocate balance and weed out the undesirables when they do appear.

    Reply
    • That is the whole point about racism here in Ireland. Historically the native Irish a very little control of the resources in the country. Just look at the famine, half the population of the country starved to death because of the situation of the English landlords owning and controlling all the means of production.
      Now in this modern era we have people from different cultures and countries competing for the percieved scarce resources.

      Reply
  • Why not make proper arrangements to deport overstayers and asylum seekers in a timely manner and strictly enforce all visas especially those student visas given to Chinese restaurant slaves.

    There are so many Chinese students in the country and most are working illegally and do not study!

    Clean up the mess instead of adding to it!

    Reply
    • Paul 01/05/12 #

      We don’t know where tens of thousands of those Chinese (etc) students are. We lost them. Loads ended up using the passport free zone between Ireland and the UK to disappear into the black economy. The horse has bolted on that one. The gards detained an Irish born citizen of this country for not having papers with him, his ethnic origin was Chinese. They let him go when his wife brought his passport. They told him to be more careful next time. Only way to police it now is more of that kind of thing.

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  • A lot of Immigrants seem unwilling to intergrate however. Many come to Ireland with insufficient English and stick to their own social groups . If immigrants took more effort to get involved in their new communities and for example were joining GAA clubs and going to community events run in local areas They would be more welcomed. Most Irish people aren’t racist they are just unused to non Irish cultures and Ideas

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    • Nail on the head!

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    • More crap

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    • I hear you about immigrants not making enough efforts to integrate, but it’s not 100% real picture. There are foreign people in Ireland who integrate extremely well. There are also the ones who don’t do that well. You cannot just say because they don’t try to. It’s like a child in school who has some issues. Do you think troubled child can make effort to become better child on its own? No, I don’t think so, that child need special needs and special social support and loads of it to pull through and to be able to change. I think similar happens to some immigrants. They are just unable to show they real potential and value if they cannot be helped with. And I think author is quite right about not leaving it as if there was no issue, that very “it’ll be grand” approach failed Ireland so many times now. And we should learn on our own mistakes shouldn’t we?

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    • @Conor Much like the Irish expat community abroad. And we should ask why is it the case that many keep to themselves? The report can be interpreted a couple of ways, one of which is that we are racist and therefore exclude them. Naturally we don’t want to call ourselves racist, its derogatory. Integration is a two way street, those entering need to be willing and those receiving need to be willing. Im not convinced that its all ‘their’ fault.

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    • In courts around the country every week immigrants appear seeking interpreters paid for by us the taxpayers because they claim not to speak English after several years living here! All such cases should be refused and such people found against and deported.

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    • Mr connor very well said…what i see is we the immigrants are more interested in nursing and doctoring courses,and the odd jobs,so yes i think half of theimmgrant are half afraid to venture on a new platform just in case they feel unwelcome and our english have to improve because there are more french speaking africans here than ebglish speaking africans

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    • lol tell that to Irish communities worldwide going to only Irish bars setting up gaa clubs . . .

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    • @foggy_lad I’ve heard about Irish speakers who claim not speak English, living here all their lives, and even demanding that our laws are written in their language. How strange is that???

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    • I have 6 friends in oz at the moment and they dont really interact with Australian people, join aussie rules clubs or any of that stuff… they dont like the sport, the immigrants coming here would be the same i reckon

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    • Ireland did and continues to use migration to it’s own benefit.
      We are again wittnessing mass emmigration because of the perpetual misgovernance of our economy. Hi-tech firms are staffed by immigrants because of our own underperforming education system.
      Painting all immigrants as welfare tourists is myopic and misses a very important point. Constructive liberal migration policies could benefit our country.
      On balance, immigrants give more to their host nation than they take. They tend to be harder working and more entrepreneurial than the native population. This isn’t simply because they are desperate. They bring with them different experiences and new ideas. They are more likely to be job creators than job takers given the opportunity.
      This is as true for Irish settling abroad as non-Irish settling here.
      In order, to develop a “smart economy” we need smart governance. It wouldn’t be smart not to use the potental benefits constructive immigration policies can offer.
      http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=28750&Cr=&Cr1

      Reply
    • Yes and perhaps the Irish should integrate when they go to other countries instead of getting drunk in Irish bars, setting up GAA clubs, importing Tatyo crisps and tea bags, insisting on speaking their own languages.

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    • @ Conor – I don’t disagree with you, but this is a two-way street. This has been a huge issue in most European countries. Taking Germany for example, there is very little integration between the traditional German population and the Turkish population ( invited in a “guest workers” to fill their deficit of workers ). The traditional German argument is the same as yours; there is no attempt to integrate. The Turkish counter-argument is that there are no strong incentives to integrate. The communities are very separate; separate bars / clubs for socialising, in many case separate shops and schools, separate districts within cities, separate employment opportunities.

      What is meant by “integration” needs to be clearly defined. What should an emigrant be expected to do in the host country. How should the children of emigrants be treated in the country they were born into? Language is the first and most obvious point, but even this is unclear. The strongest day-to-day language is English, so competency in English is a necessity. But does this mean that emigrant parents should speak English to their children at home? And what about food? don’t think it necessary for someone to change their diet just to suit a host country, as long as no food safety laws are contravened. I find raw meat pretty disgusting, but I live in a country where it is considered not only acceptable, but an attractive option. I respect that, but I don’t think I should be obliged to eat it myself. Maybe this is a trite example, but I just want to point out that it is a very complex issue to define the borders of what should be “an acceptable level of integration”.

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    • Same problem in UK for years, these people will not integrate into our way of life, but in years to come you will see ghettos of their off spring shouting poor me, I’m been racially abused. So easy to pull the racist card when it suits them, but if they mix they seem to get on better, as I have seen in my years in the England.. It’s only the last few years we are seeing multicultural differences in the media and high performance jobs.. It may very well take as long in Ireland as it did in the UK.

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    • Mary you talk about “these people” as though they were aliens from another planet, they’re human beings like you and I – how many of “these people” have you ever went out of your way to feel welcome to this country? How would you like it if you lived in another country where locals looked at you with suspicion and referred to you as “those people”? Are you surprised immigrants are more comfortable with people they know won’t abuse them. Do you have any idea what’s its like to live as a stranger in a foreign country?

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  • Would have to agree with Conor. Furthermore many arrive with an almost aggressive defensiveness and an unhealthy impression of “their rights & entitlements”. Others are amazingly hard working honest people but for some reason prefer their own cultures…. It’s a two way thing baby!

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    • @Oisin can you quantify your use of the word MANY? How MANY arrive with aggressive defensivness. Could this generalization along with all the others in Ireland be part of the reason that foreign ex pats don’t feel welcome, hence socialist in their own cultural & ethnic groups? Or might it have something to do with the sad state of our social culture built around alcohol.

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    • God forbid that someone might prefer the culture they grew up in. My son has moved to Canad, but he still prefers his Irish heritage. How is that a problem?

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  • In the UK many of those racism claims are false, the race card is used alot especially in London. White people also experience racism in London. Most go unreported

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  • Ah here we go again, us Irish are so “backwards and racist” crap. Integration is a two way street and I wonder did the author do any research on why a lot of our new immigrant communities simply don’t try to integrate. All the roles he speaks of are open to any member of our society. If this author is now suggesting we somehow develop “immigrant quotas” on top of the already ludicrous notion of “gender quotas” I truly despair.

    I love The Journal but with regard to immigration it is only portraying one side of the coin, which is totally unfair and unbalanced.

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  • Where-d my comment go? Again??

    I was saying that it’s no surprise at all that we don’t see foreign gardai. They have residency requirements that require (I think) 5 years legal residencey in Ireland. This is only sensible since they will have to police Irish in an culture, and take an oath of loyalty. People living in Ireland that long probably already have a job, and anyone who qualified in the last few years cant join because of the recruitment ban!

    All European countries have restrictions on who can apply for jobs that involve runing the state. Read the access to employment section here http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/working_abroad/working_in_the_eu.html

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  • I don’t think a lot of them have been here long enough. wait for a generation or two

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    • Look what has happened with education in England after a few generations! Kids grow up in slums unable to talk da proper English bruv init an that’s all thanks to putting children of immigrants into mainstream education when they don’t have a basic grasp of the language or have not learned basic grammar or punctuation.

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    • Mr ed…discrimination is out on the same color and racism is white on black or vis versa…so a white person can only discriminate on another white person,and racism is the color of ur skin been treated badly and is not were you come from…hope u get that

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    • cha moan man ur soo coooool

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  • My polish friend have kids who came living here and started school at age of 10. After couple months their language came from basics to near fluent. Now after 3 years you would not even recognise their accent from Irish kids. They are one of the best students in their school as well, they even know some Irish language now! All that in 3 years or bit more, so I don’t believe that thing about foreign kids lowering education standards. Also remember now after 2004 influx so many immigrants have their child born here in Ireland and those kids have no problems with English once they go to crèche and preschool. I am not sure if you are aware but education standard in East Europe is pretty high and strict. My another friend emigrated with his teen son to USA while ago and that boy was laughing at maths levels on his new class ridiculously easy compared to stuff back home. Needless to say he was one of best students in no time.

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  • As a foreigner myself: foreigners are pampered. So called immigrants from the UK milk the system in far bigger numbers tgen one thinks and on top of that the race/culture card is played and retarded by social services.
    Put a cap on your schools for non national children (who’s primary language is not English or Irish)… as this’ll benefit all involved in learning and or not falling behind.

    as Shakespeare said….. a rose by ny other name …. well an a55h0l3 is a55h0l3 does…. no matter what colour your skin is….. thats no racism

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    • I see the usual xenophobic narrow minded brigade are out in force again. Don’t suppose you have thought that some of these immigrants and asylum seekers may have a lot to offer this country. Historically in most developed countries immigrants desire to make a good life for themselves has resulted in growth in an economy. The Irish have been welcomed all over the world and have contributed to the societies we have been accepted in. This country needs new ideas and businesses. As usual recession breeds bigotry

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    • Deny human beings, dependant children, an education? That’s very Nationalist front of you Ed.

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    • It’s ironic that you brand people who are looking for a bit of balance such striking terms as bigots and xenophobes when you in fact haven’t a clue about them. Heavy words that should be re considered perhaps? Just because people believe integration is a two way street and that the Irish are getting a bit too battered by too many sources these days does not entitle you or this author to start going around scaremongering or branding people wrecklessly.

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    • I would also urge caution around using the Irish immigration as an example of integration. Yes, in 2012 you will have many Irish americans well integrated into systems but this is only as a result of decades of Irish existence in America and Britain. In new emigration hubs like Australia and Canada the Irish will not have any of the roles the author refers to. Integration happens over time. Our immigrants are here a very short time and it is ridiculous to suggest that they would be fully integrated already, when that has never happened in any other country on the planet EVER!

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    • Dislike all you want….. How did the Irish get a name for drinking?
      If a group draws attention to itself in a certain way they get known got it.

      Now ny kids are to young, but our Eastern European friend just wentnftom an educate together to RC girls school ….. Her behaviour (new friends) language and study results have drastically improved.

      Before going there she always told us she hatedvtgd E T as there is group forming and teachers do not understand what’s going on

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    • Orla,
      The Irish were dispised the world over !
      Because they were lazy, drank too much, and scammed the system.

      They formed their enclaves in Britain and the USA (specifically) and it remained that way for many years

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    • Dub I lived in both the US & Britain for several years and I would disagree with your analysis of how the Irish were percieved in both countries.
      The Irish were ghettoised in both countries and experienced the social/ criminal problems that accompany this. They were portrayed by a minority as all alcoholics, lazy, terrorists depending on the flavour of the day. However, we were at the same time regarded as hard working and descent.

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    • DublinNaas,
      Like Sean above what you describe is not my experience. I never found being Irish a barrier to getting on and having a decent life abroad.

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  • ah sure, it’s gonna be grand.

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  • Its wrong to compare the number of ethnicities in the public service and the population since immigration en masse is relatively new to ireland. You cant foster integration, it will happen over time, as the children of immigrants grow up theyll take more part in Irish public life. I live in one of the most diverse areas in Ireland (Blanchardstown) and i can tell you, go to any park and walk around you will see black kids, white kids, asian kids etc all playing together, there isnt a problem. What will create a problem is forcing things or dividing with fact based (but no in-the-community) reports. The fact is the people in power now didnt grow up with that, but as the next generation does you will see these people in the Gardaí, Dáil etc. Give it time, Ireland does multicultural very well when you look at how sudden it was.

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    • Interesting comment Samai and one of the few to address the core question, which is; do we take a policy of doing nothing and let people integrated organically or do we take a more assertive approach and try to encourage/facilitate integration.

      Both policies done wrong can make matters worse – the purpose of my article was to try and stimulate that discussion.

      The option of deporting people is not going to happen, unless we leave the EU and UN so those advocating such an approach should bear that in mind.

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    • Killian,
      interesting how you propose only two options/ solutions, both of which suit your argument.

      The other combined options are;

      -We place an immediate (temporary) ban on those attempting to enter the country as ‘refugees’ and ‘asylum seekers’.

      -We repatriate all foreigners convicted of serious crimes.

      -We deport all foreigners found to be inable to support themselves and without legitimate entitlement to welfare.

      -Foreigners arriving here must work for at least one year before entitlement to anything.

      -Life on welfare is not an option for foreigners, once the year on jobseekers is up, then its out, unless another job is found.

      -We introduce an immigration system like that in the US and Australia, where entry is based on merit and contribution.

      -We implement an entry test (to include a language skills and history test) for anyone hoping to enter and reside in our country.

      -We insist on a full medical being passed before a foreigner is allowed domicile here.

      -We rescind our commitment to opening our borders to the ‘new’ accession states.

      -We implement the Geneva Convention which states that refugees MUST return to their original homes after the conflict has passed.

      —–

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    • Sounds like a great Irish welcome, DubinNaas!

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  • All most all eastern Europeans are the same race as us. Caucasian ! There fore we hardly being racist against our own race!

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    • Race-ism not coulour-of-skin-ism.
      Even a east European will tell you there is a difference between workers from before opening the borders and para’s after…

      I have seen the education level drop in my own country due to language issues. Be fair you won’t send your kids to a school consisting 50% Irish travelers (yes three are nice travelers as well but….)… So as a foreigner…. I won’t send my to a school full of foreigners….. I value the education of my kids to much.

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    • race: slavic , germanic , Saxon, Celtic
      nationality: Polish, Belgian, German, Israeli

      Religion: Protestant catholic Muslim Jewish

      Racism is only involving the first group

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    • Racism is rampant in this country. Just look at the way we treat asylum seekers. Virtual imprisonment without trial. One of the institutional ways in which discrimination is ractised is the requirement for Irish in many State occupations-even though the general population never use it. Multiculturism has proved to e an absolute disaster in the UK and France. Integration is the only way to avoid problems for the future. We more than most have suffered from multiculturism. Just look North to see the effects of discrimination.

      Properly integrating an immigant population requires enlightened policies and constant vigilance against the racists but it s well worth the effort.

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    • @ben
      Without trial?!

      What about your one who went through the courts backwards and was found out to have false documentation ?!

      We are not a nation of racists but passivists and don’t like the way foreigners or immigrants, what ever you want to label them as, taking the pi55.

      I must be racist then because I think what that woman did was a disgrace.!!

      Reply
  • An irishman trying to protect his girlfriend attacked by a black guy on a bus throwing chips at her, was stabbed and died on the bus on the holloway road. I live in London and remember this very well.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-453707/Bus-passenger-fatally-stabbed-chip-throwing-man.html

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  • and yes i speak out to anyone who depends on the estate…. and yes i have a big nose and no I am not Jewish

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  • I believe many people resent the way ‘multiculturalism’ was foisted upon us, in FFs drive to stay in power and feed the Celtic beast.

    It has failed everywhere it has been tried and ‘integration’ is a fallacy.

    Perhaps it is time to review the whole policy of allowing asylum seekers and refugees entry, while we recover from the mess FF left us in.

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    • How’s your integration into Naas going?

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    • bloody hell, someone will be on here blaming ff for the weather next.

      for a while we were attractive to people to come here to work, mostly, but not always in poorly paid jobs that the Irish didn’t want. exactly the same as we did before and now after the tiger. we live in a mobile world.

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    • &Tom

      Irish left to work and provide for their families. Lots of immigrants came here and sponged for years. I’m sure you’ve seen it.

      Yes I know lots didn’t either.

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    • Dey tuk ar jebs!!

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    • Asylum seekers and refugees only account for a minority of the new cultures and (relatively) new arrivals. Most were and are economic migrants. Multiculturalism and integration policies have failed throughout most of Western Europe, but this doesn’t mean we should throw up our hands and admit defeat. Unlike the UK, France, Germany, etc., emigration into Ireland began very recently, so we’re a lot more fluid with our legislation. Rather than saying “we’re bad”, we can look at this point in time as a chance to avoid the mistakes made by our neighbours.

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  • There is no room in this country for racists or bigots, even a few of the above comments I find quite disturbing with respect to calling immigrants spongers etc. However, there is equal as non existant room for the PC brigade to start labeling Ireland racist or xenophobic because they want to bully their opinions and notions of integration onto society! I have immigrant friends and have worked with plenty of immigrants to know that labeling them spongers because of a few bad apples is totally ridiculous. On the flip side no one can brand Ireland as being anti immigrant or racist because of the same small % of bad apples. It’s a totally hypocritical argument. Don’t label all immigrants the same, whilst we brand all Irish the same?

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  • What a load of crap

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  • Sorry, some words left out obviously……. I think it’s the end of Ireland… a once beautiful country

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    • Vic A 03/05/12 #

      Lol….A once beautiful country? Really? Decimated by immigrants now? I think a lot of people complaining about Sean Brady et al -etc etc will actually disagree with you. As you will probably be aware, Australia is charging another priest for child molestation and I am not really alluding to any commonality as to the nationality of these people.

      Those asides, I think that like every other country, Ireland has its fair share of people who are racist. The problem however is the lack of adequate policy to combat racism and this is visible across the board from all the political/social institutions in the country i.e. government, police, local councils, schools etc. Do not get me wrong! A lot of Irish people are civil folks, willing to accept other nationalities into their country. Why would that be surprising? The Irish are well known as emigrants themselves and have established themselves from the USA, UK, Germany, Australia and surprise surprise- South Africa, Nigeria, Latin America etc.

      Indeed, Minister Noonan advised young Irish people to emigrate and it was and it still government policy to encourage emigration to reduce unemployment in the state. In fact, FF, as a matter of government policy advocated that ‘illegal Irish’ citizens in the US be regularised and be forgiven for breaking immigration rules in the US. (That was inputted to give some perspective as to obvious double standards)

      With regards to discrimination and integration, I think it is important to note that an environment has to be created to encourage integration and well laid out and enforceable policies to discourage discrimination. I can certainly relate to the poster that said the three basic questions (or conversation-rolling eyes) I as an African living in Ireland will be asked 97% of time-
      1. Where are you from?
      2. How long have you been here?
      3. When are you going back?

      I have had some wonderful experiences living here, possibly because I have spent most of the years here in the University that comprises of folks that in most cases have travelled and lived abroad and have a global perspective about the world. But, the reality is that a lot of Irish people believe that immigrants are generally second- class citizens and basically should do as they are told. Immigrants are (broadly) vilified on a daily basis and used as an excuse for the country’s financial woes, a lot of premium is placed on immigrants that are on social welfare and no account is taken of the vast majority that actually contribute to the state coffers. Any mention of racism is rebuffed with – sure it’s not all bad or they aren’t integrating properly , why not GAA clubs etc…

      I am not a fan of giving personal experiences on a faceless medium but the fact is that Ireland has a fundamental problem with racism and equal opportunities! Denying this fact only prolongs the chances of arriving at a solution but more importantly lays a bad foundation for the future of cohesion amongst ‘immigrants’ and locals’- the problem is that France and UK can reasonably deal with the consequences and move on- Ireland cannot.

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  • Ireland and cowardice is the cause. Everyone absolutely TERRIFIED of being called Raaaaacist! What a shame, a once beautiful being used as a dumping ground! It seems people are starting to wake up, but I fear it’s too late!

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    • They shouldn´t be afraid of being called racist. They should try not be racist. I´m sorry, you´re claiming immigration is Ireland being used as a dumping ground?Seriously, every country which took in Irish immigrants should feel bad right now.

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    • What they should REALLY be araid of is losing their Personal Freedom, through the ‘Emotional Blackmail’ of being labeled racist.

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  • I heard a nice analogy from one of Obama’s advisors… What do we mean by integration? Perhaps we live not in a melting pot of cultures and races, religions, etc. but rather a salad bowl… Perhaps we expect too much of ourselves and migrants to integrate and fit in …

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  • Don’t you just hate, when quango leaders want their opinion fostered on to everyone to justified the taxpayers money they get. Shouldn’t it be a cause for concern that 17% of our population is foreign born?

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  • Ayofer 01/05/12 #

    Firstly as an immigrant that has lived and worked here for the last 7 years,firstly in an office and now has a taxi driver.Integrating into the society has been very difficult, for all the 5 years I spent working I made just one friend at work who is Polish, due to the fact that I was always somehow excluded from events at work, eg nobody ever went on lunch breaks with me, people avoided sitting next to me on lunch breaks, no one ever asked me reasonable questions about who I was apart from “where are you from, how long are you here, and do you think you’ll be going back”?, but there was no verbal racial abuse in the office job.Now that I work as a taxi driver, the abuse I get are overwhelming. You don’t know when the next abuse will happen, and when it does it could be a person stepping into the car and using the N**** word, or sometimes touching my head , fiddling with my radio and being pure rude in the car or refusing to pay, I’ve also been threatened many times that I should go back home because there will be a race war where all the blacks will be driven out of the country.Out of 10 prospective passengers that could come into my car I get skipped by 7 every day, which affects my overall take home pay. So u be d judge , would you think based on my experience ,it would be easy for me to integrate here? Personally I think Irish people could easily overcome the suspicions they have about immigrants,that could cause some of the frictions outlined above,if they embrace integration and understand that unity within a society fosters progress for all.At the end of the day all those foreign babies born here and are legal , are yours and something to be proud of.rant over

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  • The current political class have laid down the groundwork for our next civil war. Their only pensions from this state should be their swinging from lamp posts.

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  • Look, I don’t wish to sound like a philosopher here but first of all, immigrants or no immigrants, we are one race. The human race. So long as there is a person and not a dog or something working in the public sector or in politics or wherever, then as far as I am concerned, every person is represented. Can we please cut this crap about black people or asian people or polish people not being integrated….As has been pointed out, they themselves will integrate in their own time and will eventually join in politics. As this is so so new to Ireland, lets stop trying to look like America which has seen hundreds of years of integration – we have seen a couple of decades. I think that it is hypocritical, insulting to everyone, PC and immature to whine about the fact that there are one in five people ‘invisible’. Not to me, I am friends with many different nationalites of people and I teach Africans, muslims, Asians in the school I work and there is never a moment’s bother over where they or their parents work nor should there be.

    As Morgan Freeman stated once, the only way to stop racism is to stop talking about it.

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  • As an African-American living in Ireland, who has experienced racism and discrimination up-front and personal in my own country. But,it wasn’t until I moved to Ireland that I experienced violence against my person. What made it worse was that the attack happened during a busy day with loads of witnesses that did nothing. Even when I captured one of the assailants, no one bothered to call the police. Eventually, I had to let him go because no one would call the police. When I walked to the Pierce Street Garda Station… The officer on duty asked me if I was a tourist, when I said no… Then he said he couldn’t help me. I eventually visited the hospital for my injuries. Thank God my injuries were minor!

    I eventually took the matter to my local councilman. After an hour, he empathized and said that Ireland doesn’t have the infrastructure to combat such crimes.

    Now… I have several college degrees, I speak several languages (including my native tongue of English), I am gainfully employed and I have proper paperwork to reside in this country.

    So…. Can someone explain which part of my experience was a positive light upon Ireland? And which part shows the openness of this country to accept outsiders to seamlessly integrate?

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    • Sorry to hear about that experience. It certainly does put the county in a bad light. The garda and councilman you dealt with should be prosecuted. This is not just about racism – that is sickening incompetence and waste of taxpayers money as well.

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    • Shocking if real. As the other person said, the officials you dealt with should be taken responsible. It’s clearly not truth they couldn’t do anything, I am nearly hard to believe that story as I find Garda in Ireland always quite competent and helpful and polite. Take usually take things seriously too. Very sound people Irish Garda are at most cases (well as always you may find some bad example). But you know what, I’ve been jumped once in my own country too and also was well disappointed by services response, so definitely it was not a racist case, but “lazy I don’t give a cr$#p” case more likely!

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    • Sorry to hear that you were also attacked. I hope you found some type of solace? Yes…. The attack very much did happen. In truth…. I didn’t expect the Garda to do much once I arrived to Pierce Street Garda Station except complete a report with pertinent information regarding the attack in the chance that the assailants were running amok. But shocked me most everything together…. No one called the Garda as they watched me being attacked and fighting back, no one disrupted the attack, the councilor stating that there is little they can do against the anti-social behavior of juveniles (In this country there are no holding facilities for young offenders… Thus there are no consequences for bad behavior) and finally the Garda… Who was more concerned about me being a tourist. When I think back to that day… I thank God that I wasn’t severely injured.

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    • Im sorry if you were attacked but i find it hard to believe that a garda turned you away and said he could not help you because you are not a tourist, if anyone is assaulted in this country the garda has to help you. If you are a tourist or resident, i can forward your details and your comment onto the garda ombudsman and they can help you further.

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    • @Bos, As you well know there are two sides to every story as i said how can it be stated that no one did anything, or made a cell phone report of this also with the 1 in4 rule as stated some of his own people must have witnessed this and done nothing, and in addition this negative view of the garda even before entering the station in his own words make me believe this report is biased. Are the police so efficent in his own country that he find the gardai so lacking in professionalisim, also in his own words he had minor injuries so whats the issue here? I am sick of the overeactive type of response that has become the norm when dealing with certain types here in Irelandand you can include yourself in that statement, do unto others as you would have them done unto you,give respect get respect back simple !!!!!!!

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  • We seem in Ireland to be reacting to this influx rather than being able to plan in any way.

    How did we end up here ?
    What was the rationale to allow such high levels of non-EU persons into Ireland ?

    Did we learn nothing from the experience of almost every developed country and their experiences in dealing with similar situations

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  • @Vic A thanks for the rant but to be honest with you having read your comments and thought about what you said “When are you going back ” maybe in your case is a fair question for someone who has a very sheltered view of life in Ireland, studying in a country and not being happy would not be up to your University standard of living, so you are an adult if you are not happy go elsewere,I do not need you to pontificate about all the failing in Irish society in relation to race issues you have nothing to contribute to me opinions on race relations here in this country, if further pastures are greener go there with my blessing, you will not achieve your vision of shangri la on these shores , what you will find is a people who are fair and giving but try to take advantage and your cead mile failte will soon be over , Ithink maybe its you who is being racist towards the Irish with your bigoted views on how us Irish behave towards all other races

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    • How is he being bigoted to say that he’s had lovely experiences with some Irish people but feels that society could do more to aid integration?

      I don’t think you understand what racist means. It’s making generalisations based on race, not sharing your experiences and making policy recommendations.

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  • Are the taxpayers paying for this crowd to sit in an office and study these figures? Are there not more important things to be worried about these days?

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  • I am a foreign national living in Ireland and can categorically say Irelands immigration and integration policy barely scratch the surface alot can be done to change this, but there i barely money to cover young people with disabilities and other issues, so it would be senseless to pump money into integration when its all propaganda and nothing will be done. that said about the goverment but i found many Irish people very ignorant of the plights of immigrants, in many cases attempt to integrate tend to be pushed back down ur throat, i have been on d recieving end of such and still have a letter sitting on my table about same.. I have played Gaelic football for my town for over 7 years and i have been before the county council more time than some county players and all these are from the refree reporting not me crying racism, its dat rampant i have stopped going to d panel, i chose to be in the situation and i chose to deal with it my own way, by sticking few balls at the back of their nets.. that said all my best mates are fecking ‘paddies’ lol, and love them to bits.. its few idiots and them few can taint a nation…

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  • We all know the “problems” that immigration brings with them. Countries have been dealing with various issues to varying success most have failed. There is a lot of resentment caused by political correctness and being coaxed into respecting a persons religion or customs.Labeling people and categorizing people that leads to problems it is the person or individual that matters nothing else.There are two sides to discrimination : Discriminating for a particular group or discriminating against a particular group.The Irish are in general a very tolerant lot we just have to adjust to the changing demographics of our population. Most of the foreign nationals that I know love this country and its people,why is it we keep listening to the haters,spoilers,ungrateful and bigots?
    Welcome to Ireland this is how we like to do things here……….We all know the “problems” that immigration brings with them. Countries have been dealing with various issues to varying success most have failed. There is a lot of resentment caused by political correctness and being coaxed into respecting a persons religion or customs.Labeling people and categorizing people that leads to problems it is the person or individual that matters nothing else.There are two sides to discrimination : Discriminating for a particular group or discriminating against a particular group.The Irish are in general a very tolerant lot we just have to adjust to the changing demographics of our population. Most of the foreign nationals that I know love this country and its people,why is it we keep listening to the haters,spoilers,ungrateful and bigots?
    Welcome to Ireland this is how we like to do things here……….

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  • (Contd.)…The young Irish People who are being urged (by their OWN GOVERNMENT!!) to leave their Homeland and Families, and emigrate (in a deliberate effort at Race-Replacement ), have no such luxury !
    You say,…”A lot of Irish people are civil folks,…” WOW, how nice of you to notice!!!! Do you realize how freakin Arrogant you sound???
    In your pomposity, you state “…An enviornment has to be created to encourage integration…” REALLY?..Who died and left you in charge? Maybe, at least some Irish people would like to exercise their God given right, to their own freedom of association…..Is that O.K. with you…Vic?
    You say that “Ireland has a problem with racism and equal opportunities” … Maybe the real problem, is that Ireland has a supposedly “representative” Government, that is going directly against the will of the majority of Irish people (not counting the brainless, loveless, young commie Zombies, who so often control the debate) in refusing to greatly limit immigration into this very small country. And how about some “Equal Opportunities” for Poverty level IRISH-BORN children. How much money goes to stupid immigrant assimilation programs which could be going to them? (Conversation, rolling eyes!)
    You mention The U.k. and France? Well maybe there is still time to prevent Irish Cities from turning into the crap-holes that cities in these two countries have become (with their “No-Go” areas for their own people, for God’s sake)
    Ya know “Vic”, Just MAYBE the SOLUTION to all these problems, is for you and thousands of others who think like you,……………….To just GO HOME!.

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    • Vic A 03/05/12 #

      I am having a very difficult time understanding your post there. You sound like a very angry person- trust me, I have nothing to do with whatever your problem might be.

      When you calm yourself down, you can then perharps understand my point. I have not contributed to your unhappiness and unfufilment in life, in contrast, I wish every person well!

      I was just putting forward my own opinion which you obviously disagree with. I dont engage with foul mouthed folks but I am just wondering, how do you know this is not my home? lol

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  • Ah yes the Irish dealing with immigration. Well as it has been said most immigrants come here to improve their lives & integrate. And we do seem to have a problem with skin colour which is shame because one of the most talented & good looking black men was Irish & I have never heard an Irish person deny he was one of ours. Phil Lynott.

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    • selective hearing is one then.
      But you are right…if you would have asked Phil what nationality he was…. what would he have answered….
      Now ask some immigrants…or worse their children born in this country….. the answer should be Irish….
      As for language…. yes kids learn fast…. but the lad next door two years older than mine way behind in his language on him.

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  • Professions that require fluent As Gaeilge naturally exclude non national applicants. Until this changes there can not be a totally inclusive society.

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  • Amazing how the former FF government can for all intents and purposes sell the entirety of Ireland – monocultural, multicultural or otherwise – straight down the river to near-ruin without so much as a whimper back in 2008, but we cannot get behind this simple idea.

    Race riots, gang murders and host of other problems are all potentially in Ireland’s future if it does not adopt an intercultural approach to this issue early on – there are decades of reports and stats in France, UK, Germany and elsewhere to support this, and we have a chance to go right where these states went wrong.

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  • Ayofer 01/05/12 #

    It’s this type of denial, that has inhibited the progress of integrating people into Ireland and because you know you’re not racist does not mean other people aren’t. All I’m given here is my first hand experience as an immigrant , you can take it or say it’s all in my head (and if you don’t think being call a N**** is a racist I don’t know what is.Let me try, maybe whipping is?)If I documented my daily life experiences on film, it will be a shocking revelation of what Ireland truly represents in terms of how accepting it is of foreigners. Like someone already said above, it’s a case of bad apples vs good ones.But the questions is, are the more bad apples vs good? or vice versa and what is the general experience of an immigrant and it’s effect on integration? . The quickest way things can change is when people accept that there’s is still a bit of racism here and it needs to be made UNCOOL..

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    • I am an immigrant too.
      Last weekend i was called a Jew by one of your i presume fellow continent ppl just because i addressed his speeding on an estate with kids at play…..
      Oh this plonker lives in a house paid by the government (your and my tax money) on the dole while he working under the table….

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    • You should document your experiences on film and post it. Sounds like it would be a real eye opener for a lot of people.

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  • Assimilation > Integration

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  • I have to say, I feel integration has worked better here than in most countries, most certainly then across the water. In England, ethnic groups tend to stick together. Area’s of cities have become solely for Arabs, Africans or Chinese. Liverpool has the world’s oldest Chinatown for instance. Here, African’s, Chinese, Turkish, Eastern Europeans etc. have become a part of our communities.

    As for foreigners being represent in visible daily life, thats not going to happen until the children of foreign born members of our society begin to come of age. Does the author realistically think a Nigerian or Polish accent is going to get a job as a news reader? I can think of many issues with this none more so than the fact that the majority of people watching would struggle to understand whats being said bar the newsreader toning down their accents. Full integration is going to have to wait another generation. Until then, as the stats show, we still have a lot of work to do, but for a country that only really started getting migrants in the last 15 years, we’re not doing too badly.

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    • I agree but the thing about getting job as news reader is a bit bad example. It’s not racist to not to employ somebody with not native accent for news reading job because it’s part of required skill for particular job. Nothing racist here. It’s like having even native Irish person, but with funny or unpleasant voice. That person wouldn’t get job either, as doesn’t fit the specs, simple. Racist would be not to employ store clerk who has all the same qualifications and experience as other person but different skin colour. Otherwise I agree.

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  • Some very racist and xenophobic comments here dressed up as an outcry against multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is nothing new in this country. We are an island for goodness sake. Do you think we all sprung from under the same cabbage patch? There have been people from different cultures coming here forever….just not many people from different races coming until recent years. Simple as that folks. In recent years various political ‘leaders’ across Europe have jumped on this bandwagon to exploit populist fears of foreigners for their own political benefits. The riots in the banlieus in France, the riots in the UK, failed Turkish “integration’ (the policy in Germany was never to integrate foreign gasterbeiter but to send them home once they were no longer needed) etc…have very little to do with culture and everything to do with injustice, inequality, racism, xenophobia and poverty. We should be promoting the benefits, for there are many, of having a diverse inter-cultural society

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  • Did The Journal post this to encourage negative and divisive commentary or to encourage thoughtful informed debate? I know the answer to that question.

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    • Yeah, me too. It was the latter.

      Articles about immigration are always tough because the comments are always divided. That doesn’t mean that we should stop writing or publishing the articles though. This is a thoughtful and interesting piece by Killian which I think could kick off a really good debate. However it’s almost entirely up to commenters to decide how the debate beneath an article goes. We can remove comments which break the Comments Policy for the site but beyond that, there’s not much we can do at our end.

      If you think comments are negative and divisive then please, please, do leave your own comments and get involved in the debate. It would be great to hear from lots of different view points on an article like this.

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    • No Alan….. not deny…. give them one…. but making sure they get one…. Not creating groups or classes that lag behind due to language issues.
      Put 20 fluent/native Irish speakers in a class with 10 Russian Zulu speaks do you tjonk paddy is going to pick up the language …. or speak amongst his own? Does either community benefit from it?
      (Now put 5 foreigners on 25 natives (speakers)) …..

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    • Christine, the last 4 articles you published were all of the “Ireland is racist” / “Ireland is so backwards and unwelcoming” nature. While I have absolutely no right whatsoever to determine what you publish, nor does any other reader, it do find it odd that all your published articles on this debate seem to be totally from one side. There’s no article yet published saying what a great bunch of lads we really are. Think it’s all a bit anti Irish society if I am honest. I have no problem in someone raising a concern, but the last four articles were totally bias. But that’s just my thoughts, love everything else!

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    • Wow Holemaster,

      you don’t like an alternative view to the neoliberal approach you are taking and the comments should be removed !!

      I’m sorry that not everyone is not of the happy-clappy open-the-borders view.

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    • You’re conflating two different things there, Diarmaid.

      We’ve run a few articles about racism in Ireland. Every study that’s ever been done on this has said that racism does exist in Ireland. Clearly there’s also major issues around immigration and integration too. This doesn’t mean that Ireland is “backwards and unwelcoming” – the exact same debate is happening in other countries around Europe too – but it means that it’s an issue in society and it’s worth talking about.

      So while we have run articles about it, it doesn’t mean we’re talking down Ireland! We run articles EVERY SINGLE DAY talking about positive things that are happening in Ireland and good things that Irish people have done. I don’t want to have to use another exclamation mark here, but seriously, just because we occasionally highlight one possibly negative aspect of Irish society doesn’t mean that we’re ignoring all the good things. On the contrary.

      By the way, the Read Me section is open to anyone who has an opinion on something and wants to write about it. If you’re ever interested in writing something then throw us an email – the address is tips@thejournal.ie. It’s open to all viewpoints so it might be interesting if you were to expand your thoughts into a bigger piece.

      Cheers for saying you like the site generally btw – everyone in here always appreciates when people take the time to say that.

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  • Having been an immigrant in four countries, I wish those coming here every success. It’s not easy, there is xenophobia out there, and we do all have difficulty dealing with ‘outgroups’. Nor is integration an easy task – who wants to surrender their identity?
    I do worry about the statistics, though – I think they may not be being used properly, in a at least two ways. (1) 17% born outside Ireland? If you exclude the ‘traditionally Irish’ from this figure – those born in Northern Ireland, for example, or to Irish parents abroad, etc., I suspect the figure is around half that. Figures published elsewhere suggest around 1 person in 9 living here speaks a ‘foreign’ language at home; this may be a better indicator of ethnicity or susceptibility to xenophobia, and gives a percentage of around 11%, though it does include kids born here. (2) Those police figures for racist incidents can be read many ways. For example, were racist incidents here simply less police-worthy than those in England and Wales, or were the guards less likely to react, or…? Basically, stats are fickle and can turn on you.
    Overall, though, the author is correct. Most immigrants are a boon to their adoptive country. If they have a right to be here, they have a human right to be treated well, for all our sakes.

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  • I wonder when both parties will understand the root of all this for those immigrants that came to the country they should try and mingle with the locals practice what Irish do and welcome the culture before complaining and for the Irish try and welcome the Alliens (as per terms used by the government) you can’t keep complaining about people coming here taking your money most of this immigrants came from wealthy nations and not all escaping poverty or war as everyone know loads of Irish citizen are in Auzie,England,U.S.A even Bertie Ahern is in Nigeria are we to tell him to come back home? So we should stop all this finger pointing and get along also i wonder what will become this country in 1 or 2 generation to come if this racial hatred didnt stop…. WISE UP PPLS

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  • I question whether we can judge if a problem truly exists with “integration”. Racism exists, and we truly need to do something about that, but most academics accept the fact that immigrants will never reach parity with the host society. There are two many challenges facing them, and there’s nothing any government policy can do to make that happen. They’re in a new country, they lack social capital, they often lack language skills, and the cultural differences often mean that they willingly segregate themselves from mainstream society. This is why all studies in the area of integration focus on the second generation, or generation 1.5, which is either born or raised in the host country. It’s only based on the outcomes of this generation that we can tell if an integration policy has succeeded or failed.

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  • Those Darn Swedes must be Big Bad ole’ Raaaaaaacists!!!

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  • Well said

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  • Sorry to hear that you were also attacked Fitz_Water. I hope you found some type of solace? Yes…. The attack very much did happen. In truth…. I didn’t expect the Garda to do much once I arrived to Pierce Street Garda Station except complete a report with pertinent information regarding the attack in the chance that the assailants were running amok. But shocked me most everything together…. No one called the Garda as they watched me being attacked and fighting back, no one disrupted the attack, the councilor stating that there is little they can do against the anti-social behavior of juveniles (In this country there are no holding facilities for young offenders… Thus there are no consequences for bad behavior) and finally the Garda… Who was more concerned about me being a tourist. When I think back to that day… I thank God that I wasn’t severely injured.

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    • Saying that you did not expext the garda to do much even before you entered the station in your own words sums up the way you have a very negative viewpoint, why would anyone from anywere think by going into a police station that they ” would not expect much “!!!!!!!!.Stating the full facts of your incident might give a more balanced view of the total situation , how for example did you not know someone rang the guards on a mobile phone to report this,? and as you said no one came to your assistance at the time so if the article says that 1 in4 of irelands population is non irish there was a high possibility that one of your own people ignored your plight as well , so does that make them racist ?Irish people in general are not racist but maybe what you witness are people who are fed up with people who have used the race card as an excuse to play the game for their own benefit unfortunatly when someone really needs help a lot of people could not care less because this has been overplayed for too long and as a result people suffer ,but not by the fault of the Irish

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    • Why is it Heywood that from point one you don’t believe Marlon’s story? And why do you think he is playing the race card? I might have overlooked it but I don’t think he used the word racist.

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    • Heywood Jablome….

      The full facts of the situation…. I’m not negative person by nature…. However, my past experience with the Garda hasn’t been entirely positive when a crime is involved. Maybe, I have to lower my expecatations as to what they can do. Maybe my opinion as to justice is not an easily found item here… I don’t know…

      In regards yo your comment…. “Your own people” can you clarify? Do you mean Americans, Darker Complected People or something else… As I see it I live in Ireland so who ever lives in Ireland is “my people”.

      May I ask what experience you have at being a minority? Have you ever experienced being the only caucassion in a room full of Africans, African-Americans, Chinese or Spainish?

      Finally, Ireland is now a multi-cultural state. Being that this is a fact… Ireland must look towards the future and not the past… New ways to do things as oppose to how things were done in the past.

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    • @Marlon As stated your dim view of the gardai here may be muted by your own personal experiance with the police force from the country you came from before arriving in ireland , the gardai here in ireland are more transparent than you will hope to find anywhere in the e.u, and in general not corrupt and willing to serve.In relation to the “your people ” I mean blacks which is what youare as Iam white , againyour assumption that no one called the police is applicable to all colours and race if that is the case .As a well travelled Irishman who lives in europe I know full well what it means to be in a minority and be the only native english speaking person in company on many occassions, the difference between us Irish and many other people is that we do not have a chip on our shoulder and have the ability to mix and blend in anywhere in the world so for this reason my situation is not comparable to yours,Again I will repeat Irish people are not racist but we do not suffer fools gladly, lots of black people have called the race card rant too many times for no reason and now it is a tired old song, if you like ireland enjoy it if you think elswere is better then as a adult you know what you must do,

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  • I ment learn the language you dont have to flap like a bird as the natives ….

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