The fact you mention a fictitious being says it all to me……. Along with many other reasons not to believe is the fact that this person has been a tortured soul much of her life, what will you come out with next ” god is only testing her, so she will have a fulfilled utopian life with a wardrobe full of lipsy dress’s and Mac make up for eternity” give us a break will ya…..

David,

I’m not going to sully a tragic personal story by answering your heartless bigotry.

Don’t worry – David is the house troll. He has quite a reputation on the Journal…

Dave,
If your going to bring God into this then he also gave us free will do do with it what we wish. To stop Stacey being the person she wants to be would be going against gods wish no?

Dave, they are talking and David from the first reply I think. Not you. Iv seen his nasty comments here before.

Ah David, you plonker… the judgement, the authoritarianism, the stabbing forefinger, just a patriarchal penis substitute of a church that’s lost its way. Ignore him, Stacey.

I like the idea of a “house troll”; it make me think of a horrible creature answering the door, serving me drinks and overseeing the rest of the domestic staff.

Sure David is as fictitious as Willy Wonka! TROLL!

How can there be two sides to someone’s experience? I’m glad that Journal.ie posts such humanising pieces about people who are so often just stereotyped and laughed at.

There is already a book published on trans experiences in Ireland

http://www.teni.ie/page.aspx?contentid=614

That book on bullying sounds awesome

I’m so so sorry for your horrible experience

Shocked and sorry to hear you had to go through that kingstown. I hope life is better for you now.

https://www.bigtent.com/groups/collective

Have a great day, Stacey.

Its nice to see the author of an article on the Journal respond to comments. You are the first I have seen anyways!

Thanks for sharing your story, makes a difference to see a real story rather than fluffed up channel 4 documentaries. Don’t be put off by any of the negative comments, Ireland is a changing place, and I think most people have it in them to accept people in your position. You should also take pride in the fact that you have probably helped someone else in a similar position, just by letting them see they aren’t alone.

Have a good day!

when you go outside you do not realise all the people who you pass by that accept you because we we do not make a fuss, stare or giggle. we are the ones who quietly allow you to go about your business unaccosted like everybody else. unfortunatly it will be the bigots that let themselves be know, who will pass comment and judgement, the ones who will stick out in your memory. just remember, as this thread shows they are in the minority. as always its the empty vessels that make the most noise.

Well said Stacey. Your grace and message of acceptance should be an example to everyone

Hold your gorgeous head up high, Stacy. Your story is amazing and I wish you nothing but the best for your future. To be honest, if I could give you a hug, I would. :)

Thanks for telling your story Stacey – great to see you’ve gotten a near unanimously positive reaction from readers.

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT HER …. I am answering David who thinks there is a God, read my bloody post properly FFS

Chill out Dave, and read the other commenter’s posts. They aren’t talking about you, they are talking about the David bloke who made the massively thumbed down post.

Why can’t journal ban trolls like Dave o Shea. He brings religion into every story and swears at people all the time. What does he add to sensitive stories like this one? Disgraceful.

Stacey isn’t a duck :S
Must have been another bird :P

Jason you seem rather passionate in your desire to see transsexuals labelled the way you see them… any particular reason?

Eva – I’m passionate for the truth and not a political or particular societal agenda of the time – I honestly believe that yes this is an issue but is dealt with wholly inappropriately and in the wrong way. Many people with psychiatric disorders can at one time or another believe themselves to be something they are not – that doesn’t mean we accept that delusion but treat it with the necessary help, understanding and kindness – you obviously disagree with my viewpoint but it’s one I honestly believe and yes I do know some transgender people – an old school friend for one who has many other mental health issues but yet this transgender issue was pushed upon them – they moved to Amsterdam thinking the surgery would solve all and now are far worse then they ever were before – so I’m talking from relative first hand experience.

Wow I’m sorry that your friend went through that, if you have mental issues it is nigh impossible to get through the system in Ireland.
I can now understand why you are so passionate about this.
There are loads of studies showing that the vast majority of transsexuals are much happier after surgery, I know quite a few of them, however I’m aware that there are some people who managed to slip through the cracks in the medical system and get treatment they really didn’t need.

Similar to a doctor to amputates the wrong leg in a hospital (the reason they mark the leg before the operation now).
Again I’m really sorry to hear about your friend, that truly sounds awful!

Jason, what qualifications do you have? You have pretty strong beliefs in terms of what makes for the best therapy(or rather what doesn’t) but you don’t seem to back it up with much. There’s a lot of real world study into what works best for transgenders, and in many cases transitioning is the only answer. I think, to be honest, you care more about people fitting in with your worldview than you care people. We live in a day and age where information is readily available and nobody should be judging something as complex as this from a personal anecdote. There will always be exceptions. It is not true of the vast majority of cases.

I was wondering the same thing. Surely just because your view on this matter doesn’t match that of the author or the bulk of comments shouldn’t mean that it is deleted. There are people on here ranting about religon and calling God fictitious as well as swearing at others posts. Why not have a balanced debate rather than deleting posts from people who don’t agree with the points made? As a catholic I find the slurs made about God particularly offensive yet these are left. Come on journal-hiding away the comments of what seem the minority seem to be the problem we have been trying to overcome for years. If we ignored the views of the minority then the author of this article would still be hiding in a shameful Ireland.

David’s post was aggressive and hurtful. Sprinkling hate-speech with the word “God” does not make it valid view.

I dislike the Christian bashing seen here sometimes, but it is rarely so openly hateful as David’s rant.

They shouldn’t delete posts like Davids. I know he is probably just a troll, but it might let him or others like him see that their views are not accepted by the majority of people. Maybe they might reconsider their views.
Everybody should have the right to say what they like, and let their peers be the judge of what they say.

If David was serious about his religious views and thinks that God would be angry with what a transgendered person does realign their body with their mind, he should consider that if God is perfect, God wouldn’t make mistakes. He created every person as he intended. At least that is my interpretation from what I have read. So to those that are religious and judging people like Stacy in a negative light. Leave the judgement up to your God, surely it is blasphemous in the eyes of religion to think that you have earned the right to speak on behalf of God.

Olaf, it’s easy to say that when you’re not the one who might be triggered by it. People are entitled to their viewpoints but they’re not entitled to be unnecessarily cruel or hurtful.

There is no scientific basis for claiming genetic reasons for transgenderism – in fact most health systems treat it as a pyscological disorder, e.g. NHS – you may want to make a certain point but please stick to the real facts when doing so and not making up scientific facts to suit your comment – lazy and pointless

You are right, similar to how there are XY people with natural female sex characteristics and XX people with male sex characteristics genes aren’t entirely to blame for everything.

It’s accepted generally that transsexualism isn’t a psychological issue like PTSD though, it’s more likely to be an issue with the structure of the brain given that it doesn’t respond to therapy and begins in childhood.

I know you may want more of a smoking gun, but if you can provide a reasonable alternative explanation to a physiological one then by all means give it a shot.

There is some evidence that suggests that there is a difference in our brains based on examining brains of dead pre hormones transsexuals, however it’s not really conclusive so… while I can assure you there will be a smoking gun there isn’t one just yet.

So in other words Eva as of today I’m right its psychological as no definitive evidence has been found to the contrary despite the fact that the human genome has been mapped for a good few years now

There’s still a lot they don’t know about it, particularly if there’s a “male” brain and “female” brain.

It’s important to note that the NHS “treats” this with gender reassignment.

‘ I’m right its psychological as no definitive evidence has been found to the contrary’

Physiological is not the same as psychological. If it is in the brain, developed (like language) you can’t treat it with, well anything we have today. But we can treat it with physical surgery, this is the only diagnosed mental illness which can be cured (for most) with physical surgery.

The fact is the human genome is NOT the be all and end all of understanding humans, it’s a recipe for human. The type of cooker you use for that recipe also has an impact, a power cut in the middle of the cooking process will also change things…

The fact that some transpeople don’t respond well to surgery is an example not that this is psychological but that there are more shades of grey than our medical diagnostics are capable of diagnosing. We do our best, our Doctors do their best. And currently the best treatment is to give a body which the mind is comfortable with.

There is no simple answer, so you are infact wrong for claiming it is purely psychological. Very very wrong.

Jason Finnerty, are you seriously dim?

If the human genome map meant we knew what everything did, we would be able for example to eliminate genes increasing the risk of heredity disease, cancer, autism, etc.

Not everything is genetic anyway, a lot happens in the womb in terms of hormones etc.

And yes, there is a basis for it. It’s not just psychological, it’s neurological. Do some research before spouting shit.Google transgender brain studies.

Sorrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

You shouldn’t skim over things Dave

That was a fair amusing rant Dave. Made my morning so far!

I dunno, I can’t count that many posts where religion has been brought into it – that just means there are a few people with faith and want to express their opinion based on that faith.

It’s not my faith, it seems it’s not yours either but in the interest of fairness I don’t think we’re as far away from that enlightenment as you suggest.

Fair play Stacey.

What are you all on … Read my f******g post… I am saying GOD is fictitious , can any of you read.

Of course i agree that a little common courtesy wouldnt go amiss, and from my discussions on her i have come to realise that it is hurtful on a personal level, and would happily accommodate a friend/work colleague by referring to them in the way they wished – but in a similar manner, i would hope that my beliefs would be respected, and i wouldnt be called a bigot for me personal feelings.

My point on the issue of it being difficult to find work is one of ‘how would an employer know?’

i would be interested to know (if this isn’t an overly personal question) if you had a marriage or a civil partnership?

Adam I Don’t know why we should even indulge your curiosity if you said yourself it will never change the way you see a transgendered person. Why bother? You want something but give us nothing. I notice you’re some kind of body mod guy so probably just see us as an odd fascination at best.

Vinny,

I’m so glad your op went well yesterday. However, I’m quite concerned that they let you drive the day after your operation – I imagine it was a terribly sore, uncomfortable thing to do. I know I wasn’t able to walk properly for a few days after the op, and driving was out of the question for weeks. I hope you weren’t unfortunate enough, like many trans people, to have been butchered by a fly-by-night outfit.

So, you had your two or three psychiatric evaluations a few years ago, and you were then put on hormones for at least two years, before you had the operation yesterday. I imagine you are looking forward to getting your sex drive back! It will take a few months more, but it will happen.

I hope those few months you spent on hormones where you looked neither male or female weren’t too traumatic for you. Where every time you interacted with someone, you waited with fear to see which gender they decided you are. Where, every time you went to the toilet, you wondered if this was the time that a man was going to direct you to the ladies toilet just after a woman directed you to the gents. Trick, scary times.

Of course, you have the benefit of having the estrogen in your system that your body, and your brain in particular, has been craving all your life. That storm in your brain, created by having the wrong hormone in it, has finally ceased.

Anyway, please take good care of yourself. You really shouldn’t be driving. Remember that, not only will you have to take hormones for the rest of your life, you will also have to, for the rest of your life, go through that process they showed you in the hospital of looking after your new vagina. Remember – three times a day, for about 40 minutes each time, for the next 6 months or so. Then twice a day, then once a day, then once every two days until, eventually, maybe two years from now, you will be on the maintenance programme of once every few days for the rest of your life.

Good luck!

Hi Adam,

There are lots of different types of transgendered people, in this case we are talking about transsexuals, transsexuals want to alter their body to match what their brain expects. While drag queens or transvestites dress are generally happy with doing it part time or as a performance for transsexuals they want to live the entire rest of our lives presenting as the sex we feel we are.

Being seen as a different sex to the one you feel you are generally causes anxiety, depression and a tendency toward suicide. A recent survey in Ireland showed that around 80% of transgendered people have seriously considered committing suicide.

Personally I can’t make it through a day in male mode without seriously considering it.
I work a 5 day week, that’s most of my life.

A large number, if not most transsexuals are read as transsexuals even after surgery, getting a job as a transsexual can be very very difficult. I don’t have the employment rates for Ireland but in San Francisco where there is the highest population of transsexuals in the states the unemployment rate among transsexuals is 75%.

I can understand why you wouldn’t want to use a word incorrectly, however in this case I hope you might extend the word woman to us, it would really mean a lot.

Thanks
Eva.

gah that was meant to appear under adam’s post :(

thats ok Eva i got it :)

a few points i’d like to pick up on – but at the same time i dont expect you to sit here answering my questions all day!

Just out of interest, are you saying that trnasgender is sort of an umbrella term, which includes transvestites, transexual, and probably other terms i haven’t heard off? just looking for some clarification

Your second paragraph kind of (i’m sure unintentionally) proves my point really – because you used the word ‘feel’. I absolutely understand that transexuals ‘feel’ like the opposite gender to the one they were born – but you didnt say “Being seen as a different sex to the one you are”. It’s instinctive to see a difference between what you ARE, and what you FEEL you are, and that is at the core of my problem with this. There IS a difference.

I do have a slight problem with your implication that the rate of 80% that have considered suicide is due to ‘being seen as a different sex to the one you are’ – i would have thought (and i may be wrong) that the majority of these have considered suicide as a result of bullying, sexual assaults, being thrown out by your family, feeling alone etc, much more so than someone accepting them as a friend, but seeing them primarily as a man. I would have thought that was a much lesser offence.

I suppose in response to your last paragraph, if you were a friend of mine, we would sit down and talk about it, and so long as you understood my point of view, and could accept my opinions, i could accept that you felt more comfortable with me referring to you as a woman, and i would be ok with doing that. I WOULD have to know in that situation that you understood the way i saw the situation, otherwise i’d feel like i was lying every time i referred to you as a woman

also, @Eva, the point you make, that its an emotional, rather than political issue, is the reason i’d be happy to accomodate a friend.

Yes in fact I have a picture of the umbrella http://static.culturemap.com/site_media/uploads/photos/2010-12-10/The_Idea_Fund_Transgender_Umbrella.350w_263h.jpg

Some important definitions:

Gender: The framework that society uses to recognise and “handle” differences in sexual characteristics.
Transgender: someone who doesn’t fit into the afore mentioned framework very well.
Drag Queen/King: cross dresses for performance
Transvestite: Someone who cross dresses but does not have body disphoria
Transsexual: Someone who has body disphoria surrounding their sex characteristics.

In terms of diagnosis of a physical condition the Doctor will almost always rely on the feelings of a patient, the less knowledge there is about the cause of the condition the more the Doctor must rely on what the patient declares to be their feelings. I realise this is not exactly comforting, personally I would prefer there was some sort of DNA test I could take that.

What I believe is there is something or a series of things in the brain that determine subconscious sex. If you have the same subconscious sex as our body then everything is fine and dandy but if they are different then you are like me, a transsexual.
Kind of like what made this guy know he is was male despite the reality of his body telling him otherwise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

I don’t think there is any other explanation or theory that adequately captures what transsexualism is.
And if that is the case that would make transsexuals intersex, meaning they have characteristics of both male and female.
Intersex is a complex issue and it’s really difficult to really put them in either box male or female, which is important to do within the context of our society because you have things like dress codes, toilets, pronouns et al. Like you have ambiguous genitalia, breasts +penis, vagina + beard, XXYY, XY female, XX male… and so we end up basing our decision on which box to put them in on how they themselves feel.
It may not be an ellegant solution but I think it results in the least amount of suffering.

Personally I have not been sexually assaulted or thrown out of my home, my desire to end my life comes entirely from the knowledge that a lot of people will never see me as female and the stress of trying to pass as male in work. I can’t speak for everyone else.

Well I’m glad at least that you would try to avoid stressing out your friends unnecessarily

Thanks for your reply Eva, i appreciate the opportunity to learn more about something that admittedly I don’t know that much about, especially from someone with a different viewpoint to my own, and your post and links made some interesting reading.

I guess i hadnt realised how strongly it would affect a transgender person to refer to them by what they saw as the wrong gender. I can’t say that i would ever change the way i would SEE a transgender person, but i would certainly be more willing to refer to them in the way they preferred

Thanks for the education :)

“I can’t say that i would ever change the way i would SEE a transgender person”

Then you’re not even trying.

“but i would certainly be more willing to refer to them in the way they preferred”

How very gracious of you, my lord. I guess we should be happy at the crumbs we get from the social table?

@Leigh I think the fundamental problem is not adam but rather how adam and people like him have been taught. I’m looking forward to a day when we will be treated as equals in the society we live in, but it will not be something we will win through fighting, social change happens through social means. We must show them the respect that we deserve, because unless we do, they won’t listen and we will suffer.

@adam I’m glad you learned something. There is plenty more to learn if you are interested, not about hormones and surgury, but rather about what this life is like for us.
If you’d like it in book form there are plenty already out there. Julie Serano’s whipping girl is particularly good, there is also Natalie Reed’s blog http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed and lots of other places you can learn from.

Eva the problem is he’s said he won’t change his view of transgendered people no matter what you post. It’s not just about education, it’s pretty obvious that the kind of things he’s saying would be hurtful if he read any of the article at all. It’s because he feels he has a sense of entitlement to butt in with his “viewpoint”.

It’s not our responsibility to show respect if they don’t. We weren’t born activists. We do what we can, but we have to draw a line somewhere.

Thank you Eva, I’ll check out that link and book when i get chance :)

So many reasons why wait you said is bullpoop.. I’m not even sure where to start…

what*
Sorry for the mistype.

Ciaran – please be open and honest about your preferences / needs before engaging in sexual activity. It is not up to me to list absolutely everything about me (atheist, sterile, member of a political party) that a partner might find objectionable – it is up to my partner to set their boundaries.

Actually, Ciaran, can you not see how Stacey’s story illustrates perfectly why a transgender person should be very very wary of revealing their medical past in any circumstances, and not just before sexual activity.

At the end of the day, it is up to partners to set their boundaries and preferences – it is never the fault of a person for having transgressed a boundary they were unaware of.

I’m curious as to what your boundary is. Is it that you never want to have sex with someone who has had surgery on their genitals (which would exclude a lot of natal women from your list). Or that you find the X chromosome disgusting (be careful – there are some people out there with the X chromosome who naturally develop into women anyway – you’d need to get an expensive blood test on all your partners). Is it that you don’t like having sex with something that is made out of the same material as a penis (which, I believe, is all vaginas). Or is it JUST transgender people you have a problem with?

I would avoid not telling someone I’m trans purely from the point of view I don’t want to end up in a ditch somewhere. I’m not even sure they would count it as murder.

I could imagine the Sun headline “TRANNIE MURDERED AFTER TRICKING MAN INTO SEX”

Maybe it’s difficult for Stacey to find work since all of her official paperwork; passport, birth certificate, tax papers are all in her given name, which would be male? Stacey, to all intents and purposes IS a woman, barring her final operations. It’s not like she woke up one morning and suddenly decided she wanted to be transgender. It’s a valid and real psychiatric condition, and not one that can be wished away or pounded into submission with never ending amounts of pills.

” Stacey is a man, who likes to wear womens clothes, make up, etc, and thats absolutely fine. But it doesnt make him a woman. By all means dress yourself up however you like, get whatever surgery you like (and i hope you find the money to have the surgery you are clearly desperate to get), you won’t find anyone more supportive of anyone’s right to dress and act how they like, than me.” – there’s a difference between Stacy’s life(transgender), and what you have described here(transvestite). If things were that simple, Stacy would not have undergone the mental turmoil she already has.

I appreciate from both replies that neither of you have just gone with the ‘you disagree with the PC-line, therefore you’re a bigot’ which is the usual response i get.

However, you both make the same point – that i’m confusing transgender (same thing as transexual, or ami missing something here?) with tranvestite. I’m not.

I would see a transvestite as a man who likes to wear womens clothes etc now and again (or all the time i guess). And a transexual as a man who lives his life as a woman, going so far as to have hormone therapy, surgery, name change etc. So no, i don’t see stacey as a transvestite, i see him as a transexual, or transgender, if there is a difference between the two. but i was always see him as a ‘him’.

I must say i find it a bit rich that whilst i would happily and automatically to accept your lifestyle, beliefs etc, you would ‘never speak to me again’ due to my beliefs.

Also, @Trisha, If the name was the only stumbling block when it came to finding work, well, the name was a CHOICE, perhaps something along the lines of Jo, Sam, Bobby, Tony, Nicky, Taylor, Charlie… (i could go on, but you get the point) would have been a better choice, especially if (by stacey’s own admission) the hormone therapy and surgery is too expensive at the moment

@Adam

To me, being called a man by someone who I’ve come out to causes me such a large amount of stress that I want to be as far away from them as possible. It’s not a political issue it’s an emotional issue.

@Eva, have a look at the last paragraph of my reply to your longer post below – i’d be interested to know how you’d react to that

Transgender and transexual have different meanings but are largely used interchangably. It should also be said that not all trans people are “trans”women, there are just as many “trans”men.
The main fact that I would not speak to you is you keep refering to Stacey as “he” and just generally “a man who looks like a woman but isn’t a woman” rather than a woman. If you were talking to me and called me him I would correct you or just ignore it but if you insistantly did it or explained why you believed calling me the obviously incorrect pronoun was correct, I would just not wish to speak with you.
If you knew a girl for several months ( And no, not all trans people are obviously so. ) and then somehow discovered she happened to be “trans” would you suddenly change to calling her a he? Would you think she’d be okay with getting called a he suddenly?
A simple way to think of any girl who happens to be “trans” is to not think of her in the line of transvestites, transgebnder, transexual but rather as just a plain old woman which is what she would be in most cases. And the same applies in reverse for any “trans”man. Would any woman want to be called a man or male pronouns? At the very least should you not call a person what they ask you to call them if you are unsure, rather than trying to prove a point to them that is -very- hurtful?
I really respect how your comments aren’t full of hate and how your up for discussion but there is a small amount of bigotry I’m afraid, though it’s not as bad as most. I honestly can’t see why you don’t see how any of your opinions would be just a bit hurtful either.

@Ellie, of course, i understand that there are both men and women in this situation – i suppose i have been referring to men who see themselves as women rather than vice versa because that is the case we are discussing here.

My problem is that you say things like ‘using the obviously incorrect pronoun’ – by stacey’s own admission: “Right now I look like a man in a dress, I have a long way to go before I will look otherwise.”

In this circumstance, how can you say it’s ‘obviously’ wrong to refer to stacey as ‘he’? He was born a man, looks like a man, and has the body of a man. I understand completely that he hopes to find the money for things like laser hair removal, surgery etc, that makes him look more like a woman, and make life much easier, and i wish stacey all the best for this. But i don’t see how you could accuse me of being ‘wrong’ in calling someone in this situation ‘him’. I DO understand that it is a matter of opinion, and that your way would probably less hurtful, but I couldnt lie about the way i see things.

I will accept anyone for they way they are, but i won’t lie about my beliefs or opinions to make someone feel better, i would explain to them why i felt the way i did, and hope we could agree to disagree.

Do read my reply to Eva’s post below, especially the last paragraph. If i had a friend in this situation i would, after talking to them, be comfortable with referring to them however they liked, so long as they understood my feelings, otherwise i would feel like i was lying to them every time i spoke to them.

If that is bigotry, so be it

I don’t think this is a case of education, it’s a case of basic respect. I don’t think you respect her struggles at all if you turn around and say “sorry but you’re still a man”. If that’s true, it makes her experiences completely redundant and her transition pointless. It’s not about wearing frilly dresses or even having the right parts, and the point of experiences like this is to help relay that idea.

It should be obvious that if someone suffers in terms of claiming a female identity, then shoving in their face, as an apparent fact that they’re STILL A MAN will be hurtful and disrespectful. I don’t think people are quite stupid enough to get that – I think that there’s a certain sense of entitlement amongst “normal” folk towards bringing abnormal folk down. It is their right to do so. Also, would you not consider doing some research into transgenderism before posting? If such options are readily available to people, then maybe there is actually a scientific/neurological basis for transgenderism(there is). It would not hurt to do some actual research before passing judgement on someone and expressing it in a faux-polite(read: rude) manner.

Instead of saying “So be it”, actually consider what you’re saying and how. Political correctness seems to get used the other way around more often than not nowadays, whereas if something is “un-PC” that somehow means it has to be said and is acceptable to say so as it’s part of some greater good, and not simply being rude or insensitive.

Take responsibilities for your views. Freedom of speech should not absolve you from any responsibility in what you say and do and how it affects others. Unfortunately we cannot simply agree to disagree as long as our rights and privilege are affected not just by violent rapists, the government, or outright bigots, but people such as yourself who don’t seem to stop to think.

“I must say i find it a bit rich that whilst i would happily and automatically to accept your lifestyle, beliefs etc, you would ‘never speak to me again’ due to my beliefs.”

if I’m honest, this comment made me truly dislike you as a person.

You do not suffer for your beliefs in any way like what people like us suffer for not just a throw away “belief”, but our identities. To try and turn around the tables like this and make it about you is the one thing you absolutely do not do when dealing with any kind of marginalised person, be it down to race, sexuality, etc.

Stop this nonsense about the “PC line” and about how you’re somehow oppressed. Some comments are getting deleted, but there are still plenty of platforms available to you to express your “argument” and dare I say the average joe on the street would agree with you. You are not oppressed, your viewpoint is simply discouraged(thank god) and it’s vastly insulting towards a minority that actually is. Not to mention you *are* engaging in victim blaming to an extent, even if you say otherwise – you’re still putting the victim at the focus on your argument, and what they should do to avoid it. Chances are, they’ve heard what you’ve said a thousand times before, she’s not stupid and we need to know these things to survive.

Also, when you say you cannot see a transwoman as a woman. This is being dishonest. You are over-riding what you do and don’t see as female because in terms of what you would normally process as female in an every day situation, genitalia and certainly not past genitalia or chromosomes(let’s not get into the myriad of intersex conditions) do not affect how you view that person. You could already know a trans person, have known them for years and not know they are trans.

What would you do in the situation you find out? Would you start calling them a man, insisting you get to call them a man, and then act like a little bitch about being OPPRESSED when you out that person, put them in danger, and disrespect them when you claim to respect and accept their lifestyle?

What bothers me is that in asking “What’s wrong” with calling Stacey a man, how Stacey feels does not enter into it. How it affects her is of no concern to you. Your only point is a technical one based on the physicality of the body rather than the neurology of the mind. Granted it would not be the same as the earlier example – you would register as a man – but given you’re consciously over-riding a passing trans to “Male”, would it be hard for you to do the opposite in the name of respect? No it wouldn’t. Again, sheer sense of entitlement that “normal” people get to decide everything for everyone else.

Again, stop this. Stop saying “agree to disagree”. Stop saying “so be it”. You are saying hurtful things, that are based on your personal viewpoint, not any kind of objective frame of reference, as gender as an objective concept is somewhat shaky in the first place. You are insisting this. Unfortunately, your viewpoint and how you express it affects her life experience, my life experience. We are tired of dealing with this. It’s about time people like you, not just the flaming bigots, showed a little more respect for once instead of us trying to meet you half way. There is no reason to have this argument in this day and age.

@Leigh, if im honest i have no interest getting into a discussion with you. I’ve been having an interesting, adult, and (for me) eye opening discussion, which has helped me see this issue from another viewpoint. But then you weigh in, and it’s clearly about making everyone else see things ‘your’ way, and if they won’t they’re not only wrong, but bigoted, unreasonable, etc.

With the people i have been speaking to, i can see (for the first time) that the issue is a personal one – but when you start using words like ‘oppressed’ and ‘normal/abnormal’ it becomes clear that for you, it’s more of a political one. Everyone who isn’t stupid or ignorant has to agree with you.

Well sorry, but it doesn’t work that way. You talk about the science – about the neurological studies? Then you know as well as i do that there are SOME studies (most often single cases rather legitimate scientific studies with a wide range of subjects) that SEEM to show that there MAY be some kind of physiological basis for transgenderism – and there are just as many that show that there isnt.

ugh ive already wasted more time on you than i’d meant to. until you can open your mind, and realise that just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t necessarily make them a bigoted idiot, there’s no point speaking to you

Adam, a discussion does not cease to be adult because someone tells you that you’ve done something wrong. In a mature discussion, such a claim would be properly addressed instead of side stepped.

You are the only one using the word “bigot” in reference to yourself. I did not call you a bigot. I said you were being insensitive and disrespectful, and explained, as inoffensively as I could given the sensitivity of the matter, how and why. I notice you do not address this in your post – you are merely being “curious” and because you do not consider yourself a bigot(despite falling back on the reverse-PC defense many bigots *do* use, may I point out again) you could not possibly be doing anything wrong.

You are, again, making it all about you. This isn’t even a debate topic, as there have been in the pass, it’s about one woman’s experiences and how bad bullying and abuse can be towards those who are different. It is not a place for you to plonk down your own insensitivity. You are talking down to me, telling me “it doesn’t work that way”, expecting everyone who may have suffered because of, not only the people referenced in the article, but because of your views as well, to act in precisely the manner that you wish. Which looks a lot to me like the mainstream bossing about a minority; nothing new there.

You are going to get all kinds of people in the trans community; while some like Eva are more patient and better able to keep face, others are not, and to thrust a movement forward you need both the friendly face and the moral guardian who reminds people when they’re in the wrong. The majority in the trans community would most likely lean towards agreeing with my myself.

While I cannot speak for the entire trans community(neither can Eva, may I remind you), most of us feel the same way I do so if you’re going to dismiss me in this manner you are disrespecting the entire trans community, something which I’ve already called you on several times. If you do not have time for me, chances are you do not have time for the trans community.

Again your issue here seems to be that you don’t like being called a bigot, or challenged in any meaningful way. Eva is being respectful to you but you’re just using her as a source to extract information from. When you say you will not change your view on transgendered people based on the information given to you, and then tell me I am not open minded, it is nothing short of hypocrisy.

Also, there are several rather conclusive studies on transgender brains. The claim that transwomen are really men is not inherently more truthful – yet you’re treating it like a default position here that needs to be debunked, despite sex and gender often being quite fluid and uncertain in the first place.

When a member of minority calls you on your privilege, you should listen to them instead of getting angry. This is not your article, it’s ours, and you should respect that. So far you’ve failed on that and blame everyone but yourself.

If you want to have an adult discussion, you need to be prepared to accept your views and how you express them may be hurtful for others, or even factually incorrect or unlikely. It should not be up to us in this discussion, who have already suffered so much, to prove ourselves. It is shameful to shove all the burden to a struggling group of marginalised people. If you want to prove you’re not a “bigoted idiot”(which nobody called you) then you need to do a better job of it.

Please read this before replying again -

http://www.whattamisaid.com/2009/11/when-allies-fail-part-one.html

Judging by the amount of views and comments the articles get, it would suggest that it is a hot topic at the moment. Why wouldn’t the Journal publish articles that people clearly like to read and discuss?

Most of them clearly state the content of the article, so if someone didn’t want to see it, it should simple case of scrolling past it…and not clicking on it….and not taking the time out to post comments speculating about the agendas of the Journal and the LGBT community.

They are in bed with the LGBT community which isn’t good for any news organisation. Not a day goes by without some wishy washy pro gay marriage/transgender birth cert article being posted.

I’ve yet to see a column published speaking in favour of the defence of marriage. All I’m saying is it’s all one way traffic on here and if you dont get in line you’re a “troll” or even worse a “bigot” for holding a different viewpoint.

I’m not questioning the writers at the Journal ability to remain balanced and unbiased. They do their job pretty well from what I see. But I can agree with you that the Journal is a fairly liberal minded news source. Isn’t that just the way things are with news agencies though? They all have a rough political ideology in their foundation.

I have yet to see an article written in the defence of keeping gay marriage illegal. Maybe nobody has written one to the standard the Journal sets for it to be published. I’m not being smart with you, but if that is the way you feel, why email the Journal and ask if you could write a piece about it? I am interested in seeing what the other side of the fence thinks anyway.

I agree also that even if you disagree in a polite way, such as saying it is your opinion, you can be branded a bigot or troll more often than not. But what can you do? Best thing is to report the person who says that about your comment.

It’s hardly a discussion when people with opposing views have their comments deleted. I fully support the point the author is trying to get across, but if we don’t hear the views of people who oppose then what’s the point. You will end up burying your head in the sand and the problems will never be solved. It’s obvious that the journal are pushing the issue when it comes to LGBT and are fully intent on suppressing the views of the religious. Not all religious people are anti LGBT, but it seems that any insults to the church are readily accepted on here and never deleted. Katie Taylor has praised God quite a few times since her Olympic success, yet I doubt she is homophobic. I’m surprised the comments of Cian Doherty haven’t been deleted for stating the obvious. Try a two sided debate journal, for a change.

You’ve strayed a bit off-topic, but…

You call it “pushing the LGBT agenda”, but others might simply call it reporting issues which are genuinely hot topics in Irish public discourse. Like it or not, politicians have been taking positions on marriage equality lately and there have also been recent protest marches, so it’s only to be expected that the media reports on this. Those who complain about the coverage seem to want to stifle the debate.

As for the absence of columns opposing marriage equality, this is probably because it’s difficult to construct solid, reasoned arguments against it. That’s what you’d need to do to get published. If you were to write a column opposing marriage equality and you couldn’t claim it was harmful to anybody unless you advanced unbiased, supporting evidence and well reasoned argument, where would you start? If all you had were your religious opinions and simple resistance to change, you might yield a column perfect for a religious site, but for a mainstream secular news site? I suspect that’s why you haven’t seen one.

Finally, you do beg the question – if you have a problem reading about LGBT issues, if you really believe thejournal.ie are biased and are “in bed with the LGBT community” – why do you read it?

Cian, what have you got against equality?

Or is it just that you only believe in equality for people like you?

We should all be tough men like Cian. Caring about people different to you makes you wishy washy and also quite conveniently opposing a socially conservative agenda is all part of some leftist conspiracy. Morals are for wimps. Be the supreme sociopath.

Just a point – you talk about how if someone dares disagree, they’re branded a bigot. Have you considered the possibility that being against LGBT people and saying things like “Wishy washy pro gay marriage article” might actually make you a bigot? Words exist for a reason. If you don’t like a negative label, then reassess the way in which you think of and treat others. There’s no point having a wonderful free world where people are so graciously free to shout abuse as transgendered people daring to share their struggles in the world if people aren’t free to be themselves in the first place. And unfortunately, that’s the effect people like you have on the world.

That’s all we need. A happy-clappy input to this debate.

Jesus does love everyone……. Its the majority of christians that do not unfortunately!

Since when did Jesus ask us to spell his name only in capital letters.

This Jesus guy you speak of already loves Stacey, and she doesn’t need saving by him. She might need saving from the religious bigots already out there, though.

Stacey, your story is inspiring, and I wish you all the best for your future. :)

@Pierce – I think there was a promotion or something. I think Allah is seriously pissed….. Claims of favouritism and all that.

Wouldn’t it be more useful to pray that children stop starving to death.
I assume that’s the kind of thing that Jesus would do if you asked him right?

Charing Cross Nick

And as if to prove my point I now note that the journal is deleting my comments – see – you cannot have a dissenting viewpoint – remind anyone of Nazi Germany of the Stalinist Soviet Union – The journal cop on – this is not journalism its censorship – I shall refuse to use this site any longer and shall be highlighting through social media the journal’s use of censorship to push their own agenda!

Ah no! We were doing so well without having to bring up Godwin’s Law!

GODWINS!!

Damn them uppity queers and nancies putting their queer, nancying ways out there where women and children might see them for making you invoke it!

Perhaps we have different understanding of the word courage, I grew up in a home where gays, muslims etc were considered Satan’s little helpers, I spent years of my life with my mind set in that horrifically conservative point of view. It didn’t take much courage to tell people they were going to hell and that it was ok for the Israelis to blow up people’s homes. I had great fun doing it.
It took real courage to admit that I was wrong.

You are indulging yourself and calling it a virtue.

Just to point out, I think I had a reply to this that was deleted, so it’s not just your side.

The idea that someone as privileged as yourself is somehow being oppressed when compared with transgendered people who are violently abused and excluded is sickening and no decent human being would engage in that.

There is nothing courageous about being a bully. You are not a freedom fighter. I said this in another post up further, anyway.