Govt pressure, simple as!

He is right….. I need 33k to pay for childcare for two kids…. Commute etc…. And that is just to break even compared to staying at home with two kids and dole

If the report is flawed let the Minister for employment or social protection explain how in the Dail, then withdraw it.nThis govt continues to spin and control information rather than devoting that energy to tackling our problems head on.

He is pretty much on the money in my mind. The Journal only just published an article a few days back from a woman who got work only to find out she’d have been better off on the dole.

But people are missing the point- it is not that the dole is too high (€188 per week is a pittance in modern day Ireland) it is that prices here are too high (we all know day to day staples are significantly cheaper abroad).

This all goes back to property and the cost of commerical & residential rents. The net cost to the Irish public of NAMA putting an artificial floor on the market and the govt refusing to tackle upward only rent reviews means that rents remain expensive. That then filters down into the price of a litre of milk, bar of chocolate, etc. Despite our recession the cost of living in Ireland is still astronomically high compared to our EU neighbours- we pay more than them for virtually everything. These expensive prices means we need a high minimum wage but during a recession there is downward pressure on wages which exacerbates the problem.

Get us back to a normal functioning property market (and by that I mean affordable for everyone, employer and employee) and much of these problems will be sorted out.

The statements that “social welfare payments are too high” or “wages are too high” are the sort of statements that are so broad they are essentially meaningless.

You have individuals who are literally on the breadline on social welfare while you have others who can live very comfortably.

If you are a single 23 year old male with no car living in rented accommodation it’s possible that you can have a very comfy lifestyle.

If you are a married couple with 3 kids with a huge mortgage living in a ghost estate in the middle of nowhere trying to keep a car on the road you could be climbing the walls trying to keep body and soul together.

These are just two samples – given the amount of people receiving social welfare there is obviously going to be a massive amount of difference in terms of individual’s cases.

As such anyone who makes the blanket statement that social welfare is too high is obviously taking nonsense

Are there abuses of the system? Of course there are.

Was money given away for nothing during the Boom years?

Massively – I know of two people who received welfare payments as a result of a casual acquaintance with a social welfare employee. Neither of them knew they were entitled and neither remotely needed it but were told to check it out by the social welfare employee. Lo and behold free money. Given these were people who clearly didn’t need it but were entitled to it, it shows how massively flawed the system was even in the good times.

Is there a disincentive to work because of social welfare payments? Of course there is.

What’s the solution?
Look at the cases where there is a disincentive and adjust the system based on this. However just removing the disincentive isn’t going to make jobs appear. Labour is never going to allow this as any change to social welfare will cut into their support

People use the cost of childcare when drawing up examples. This ignores the fact that this is a cost which varies massively depending on the age and number of children i.e it’s not going to be there for ever. While kids still cost a lot once they enter the education system the cost of childcare (in the sense of paying someone to mind them will drop substanialy – they’ll still cost money but the burden of childcare will drop massively)

Is there a disincentive to work in certain cases because of the social welfare system? Yes of course there is.

Shoot the messenger?
I believe you are more likely to get the truth once you are free of the shackles of Government leaning.
Ireland is still a cosy little network where everybody knows their place and how to handle things and as soon as somebody steps outside that they get shot down.
The cosiest institutions in Ireland are the ones where a spotlight never shines, where they are deemed absolutely necessary and nobody understands what they do anyway.
Prime example is The Irish Aviation Authority. My neighbour works there, makes huge money and by his own admission does very little.
These are great places to hide for your working years.

“400 working papers…”. Is this figure correct? If so, how many people are being paid by this Quango?

Try starting a business in this country. Your first ?1000 goes to accountants so they can tell the government: guess what? I didn’t earn enough this year to be liable for tax. Same next year probably, right? Get off your pompous high horses anyone who hasn’t experienced unemployment.

He makes an impressive case. Sure, there are “serious issues with [his] data” but “as far as [he] knows” the conclusion is correct. Well, I’m convinced!

@Daniel I sincerely hope you never have to survive on SW. You’re obviously in very secure employment and this is evident in your po-faced, smug finger-wagging. The dignity of people need not be your concern as by your comments they cease to be of consequence once they can no longer pay into the system. I am continually disappointed by the lack of empathy on display from too many people on The Journal. . .but not surprised given the way the country has gone.

Richard is wearing a White Stripes t-shirt. Awesome.

Prof. Richard Tol: “I spurned ERSI to concentrate on my music, chinchillas and growing my own lentils.”

Dole may or may not be too high, its probably not. The real problem is there are a significant number of people (even whole families) who are unemployed by choice and have never looked for jobs – such as the unemployable idiots going round town in dreadlocks and combat trousers and of course the poor travelling community not to forget the “single” parents making litters of kids for the state to support. If you dont like that opinion tough!

Like the drunk in the street roaring and shouting about bankers and the government. Sure, he is off his head.
But he still speaks the truth.

I’ve just realised who this joker is, he’s the same guy who was criticising investment in wind farms. in a country with no oil, coal and very small gas extraction. no wonder he believes people spend 11 euro a day on lunch and 140 a month on clothes for work. he couldn’t be more out of touch if he tried.

there is possibly a case for a welfare cap, but its not easy to implement as the pro-poverty industry will be up screaming.

I probably spend somewhere between €60 and €70 a week on food – but thats because of the pressures of running my own business I succumb to the odd Subway or Burrito. If I’ve the time to cook its less. €50 a week for just myself wouldn’t be hard because I’m always looking for bargains, €2.31 for two Chicken Kievs in Tesco -for example – so throw in a few spuds and carrots youre looking at two main meals in your week for less than €4 I reckon. Its not hard to do this – in fact its fun, just takes effort and a bit of time.
As I said about the €30 a week thats SURVIVAL only. As in thats the limit he could spend in a week and survive before starting to go hungry.
I personally think the dole should give you enough to pay your rent, feed you (within reason – I couldnt eat my way through €100 of food per week unless I was eating out regularly) and allow you a certain amount for discretionary expenditure – but €83 a week? Seems excessive, especially when, em, we have NO MONEY!
We’re at the mercy of the EU, IMF and the markets because no-one, not the social welfare, not the consultants, not the lawyers, not the bankers, not the politicians, not thecivil service feel they should take a hit.
Don’t get me wrong I would start right at the top and incrementally make it easier as you head towards the most vulnerable but I don’t buy into the myth that all social welfare recipients are at their wits end. Some yes, for sure, because they have commitments they entered into when in well paying jobs, or they have other circumstances hanging over them, but some like my friend are doing just fine thank you very much. and to deny that this cohort exists just weakens your argument.
That guy is still my friend by the way

Gotta give it to the professional PR teams that business lobby groups and the government hire to manage “news”. So instead of the facts being described as “Wages are so low that many people are not much better of when they actually find work” this research is spun as “Oh the dole is far too high, probably need to cut that”

We can see through that.

This is a simple case of an ongoing gripe between Toll and his ex-employer – the real news story is why this relationship broke down in the first place.

See we don’t have a Tory party here who can just come out and say explicitly, “people on the dole are lazy and we need to slash it”. So we need more subtle mechanisms to attack the unemployed. The ESRI is one of them. It sounds kind of left wing and socially conscious. But in reality it’s just the academic wing of government policy. I wouldn’t trust a word they say.

I think if youre a single person and only just surviving on the €186 a week of free money you need to look at your budgeting.
Buddy of mine is a former fund accountant – decided to do a spreadsheet on his incomings and outgoings. Reckoned he had about €83 of disposable income after food and rent (he gets RA)……
Sorry I meant after food, rent, gym membership, mobile broadband, unlimited cinema pass and nominal loan repayments to his banks….
He’s a canny shopper – seeks out bargains and special offers, cooks his own stuff (why would he be too busy to?), and reckons you can eat like a king for €50 a week – he could probably just about survive but no more on €30 for food.
Now he doesn’t have a mortgage or kids, which makes all the difference in the world, but he finds it hilarious that if he is disciplined, and saves just €50 of that €83, he’ll be able to afford a three week holiday in Thailand every year courtesy of the state.
This as I say is not the case for somone who has kids to feed and a mortgage to pay but he reckons he could take up to a €50 a week hit without suffering major discomfort.
#dontshootthemessenger

So freedom of speech huh- did we sign that away to- I don’t know if fine geal politicians read this but when the next election comes around -Fine Geal will be decimated bit like The last crowd nIt’s like sometimes The Country feels Lost

And whist the argument rages the real heist goes on and on on – If only our views were as ferocious when it comes to the indisputable unequal society we live in where you’re a criminal if you can’t pay a fine but bankrupt a country and you’re in Poznan watching football on sitting on your arse raking in 3.5K a week in pension payments. Still, you have to hand it to the old government ploy of divide and rule.
Still works a treat.

Truth – Dole’s going to get cut more. Much more. One way or another. And lo-pay workers are going to be hit again – through taxes. It will either be played out slowly like since 2008 – or if the Euro goes wallop – then it’s going to be overnight. It’s also going to leave politics in a bit of a mess – having been led into this by most of the mainstream Europhile parties. What credibility are any of them going to have left?
Worrying times.

He could do with a bit of grooming