The most cowardly group of people to ever walk this earth! Dáil Éireann. Let the people who voted yes come forward. They are the only ones that can be exonerated

So ahold all previous health ministers

That was Clare dalys private member bill, majority voted no because of the obscure wording & they had already set the “expert report” in action.
Your right we are doomed! When we get that!!

Yes, what kind of world will be live in when ob/gyns feel that they are clear on when they can intervene to save a woman’s life? Horrible!

That was a private members bill. It was badly worded and went beyond what was allowed by the constitution. What’s the point in passing a law that would just be struck down as unconstitutional?

I was disgusted to read those details. What a shower of cowardly bastards!

Rodrigo I have the link with the names and how they voted but cant share at the min as I am on the phone but soon as I get on the computer will post but just so you know Reily was a NO

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2012041900006?opendocument it’s all in here who was there that night

Rodrigo
You are becoming silly and even childish. The answer could be….
Sick
At Committee Meetings
Abroad at Meetings
Etc
Etc
Etc
Why do you believe your entitled to the sick notes of evert TD. You are becoming a serious moan and bore!

So should all previous governments members

As should all the TDs who were in government and failed to act over the last twenty years. It’ll be fierce quiet round the Dáil.

Why is it a joke that they would want to conduct a thorough investigation? There will be a lot of people to interview, multiple sets of notes from doctors, nurses, etc. as well as detailed ICU notes to go through, not to mention family members to interview as well.

BTW Savita died on October 28. The death was reported to the coroner immediately as is the law for any unexpected death. Hardly a cover-up…

you know its ‘Statler’ & Waldorf right?

Be careful what you wish for. Remember that one of the means of dealing with the Supreme Court ruling could be a Referendem on prohibiting all forms of abortion which under EU Treaties we are entitled to do. With a massive RC majority the outcome would be certain.

There’s nowhere near a majority of practicing Roman Catholics and a majority of Irish people have consistently shown they believe abortion should be allowed for maternal health, fatal foetal abnormalities and rape and incest.

You’re living in a Catholic dreamworld.

@SL I didn’t, but I do now…

I agree with your point but we still have to wonder why our Governments haven’t legislated after 20 years. Another thing here is I wouldn’t be taking any lessons in human rights from India. Have a look at amnesty’s website.

On average there are 5-6 maternal deaths per year in Ireland. It is one of the safest places to have a baby. Problem is that it could have been 4-5 deaths this year had Ms Savitta’s wishes been carried out.

There are 5.7 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births. That is the statistic the pro-life lobby is spouting everywhere at the moment.

What they fail to point out is that Savita’s death will not be counted among those statistics as she did not give birth to a living baby.

Giving birth in Ireland is so over rated lost count of how many women gave birth in toilets of Nat Maternity hospital

It’s the truth plane and simple

DermotLane
it has nothing to do with her being Indian
it has every thing to do with a country that has lived by the church laws which are man made
she would have had a better chance if she had of given birth/ still birth in India

And what of her REPEATED requests? Had she no right to be listened to just because she was pregnant? I am a mother of two boys and I am horrified by this whole tragic story. She went to hospital to be treated and cared for and the opposite happened. You say even if she had had the termination the infection could still have happened. COULD is the key word here, it would have been very likely that infection would not have set in as doctors would have acted quickly when she first presented at hospital.

I suppose could is the real question. We don’t know and that’s why there is an investigation. I don’t really have much time for Irish maternity hospitals and have had home births myself, but I still think our record is fairly good here, compared to some countries , and this is a really tragic event , that’s why it is such big news, it’s so rare. People are dying all the time in the world from the most awful injustices , children dying every minute from things that can be prevented . This poor woman needs to be mourned, we need to learn from it , but to call us a murdering backward country is very unfair.

Even going back 50/60 years ago my gran gave birth to 7 kids 6 live 1 stillborn,1st one in hospital horrific birth, my mum has cerebral palsy the latter 6 part from the last one which was still born were delivered at home by a fantastic nurse called Nurse Leonard she sadly passed away a few years ago but she was an institution here in Wicklow town and a fantastic midwife, my family had too many horror stories over the usual hospital your sent to, I went and had a fantastic birth experience 3 times in the Coombe, there was no shit they listened to you.

Well said.

Exactly.

George, do you think that men should also not have sex for the fear of getting pregnant? Of course birth control should be used, if getting pregnant is not desired, but I’m curious to know if you think that men and women have the same rights in regards to making the decision to have sex, or not?

Absolutely Rachel, I do but unfortunately a man can run away and that happens in many cases unfortunately.

So a man can run away from his responsibilities even though he is aware of them when he has sex, but a woman should have no choice? Not all men do run away, but as you point out sadly, some do. But it’s not ok for some mothers to decide that they don’t want to overdose on oestrogen for 9 months, have their body stretched, their organs squashed, and that’s not even going into complications..
Do you think fathers should be forced into taking their responsibility?

It’s not ok for some mothers to decide if the decision is killing what could be a healthy baby. If the couple decide to go through with the pregnancy the physical effects are going to be the same anyway so what’s your point? Women should not have kids at all? Do Ithink fathers should be forced into taking their responsibility? Could you elaborate?

Well as you said, a man can walk away. Do you think he should be forced to provide? Forced to become responsible for the child as the mother is? Bear in mind that even if she opts for adoption she is still solely responsible for the pregnancy, should the father have to contribute financially from the moment of discovery rather than just after the birth?

As I explained above (I mixed up replies) – there’s a difference between deciding to get pregnant, where you have chosen to, or do not mind being pregnant, and getting pregnant when you specifically do not wish to, where it may pose great risk to your health etc.

It’s about CHOICE. But you would seek to limit those choices because of how *you* feel about it, it’s apparent that you care not how the woman who will directly be experiencing the pregnancy feels.
(And as for the foetus, again, 90% of abortions happen within the first 13 weeks – at this point most women haven’t even announced the pregnancy because there’s a high risk of spontaneous abortion, all an abortion is at this point is an induced miscarriage. Later term abortions are for medical reasons most frequently and are a seperate issue.)

We would express concern if one of our citizens died from what was apparently a grey area in legislation too. What’s so wrong with India doing same? Not all of India is slums, granted there are some – and they do have plenty if their own issues, but they don’t have this one, so in this case they have every right to express concern. It’s not like they outright condemned us, they said they were waiting on the report.

The pro abortion hijackers will not get egg on their face as the media will bury the outcome if it can’t be spun to push abortion

that’s a ridiculous comment to make

Her husband said that she was given antibiotics and other treatment. I have no problem with my conscience. Maybe you need to consider why you are so opposed to legislation and consider it with your conscience?

Sorry Nick, I’m trying to reply but my comment wont upload for some reason or another…

Most pregnant women are fairly innocent and defenceless as well. I cannot justify extending a right to a foetus that no one else in society has – the right to force another human being to offer up their blood and body against their will to keep the foetus alive.

I’m not saying she has no rights Nick, you don’t seem to see what I’m getting at. A woman isn’t forced into getting pregnant, she chooses to have sex and she knows the risks of pregnancy. )I’m not talking about pregnancy through rape now) Do you think if a woman goes out, gets pregnant by accident that she should be allowed have an abortion because it’s inconvenient and will impact on her lifestyle.

So I’m sorry, everyone else is entitled to bodily autonomy in our society, except pregnant women? EVERYONE else has a right to say “no, I will not offer my blood and body to another human being.” Including rapists, murderers. But pregnant women are the one group you wish to deny full bodily integrity to? In order for that to make sense, you have to view having sex as being worse than any crime in our society, which is simply foolish.

It’s no longer about “her body” nick, there are two people in the equasion very soon after conception and many women who are careless enough to get pregnant see abortion as a way out of the situation they got themselves into. I asked you do you think killing a fetus is justified, in general, you, like a politician just keep giving silly answers and avoiding the question. At least have the backbone to say you think yes, the pregnant woman should be allow kill the unborn child, I won’t agree but I’ll at least respect your straightforwardness and honesty instead of this tip toeing which you and others are doing.

Oh, now you’re being ridiculous. Of course it’s about her body – for a pregnancy to continue, a woman needs to offer up her body and her blood to a foetus. You do understand, right? Why do you ignore the contribution of a woman’s body and only focus on the foetus?

What I am saying is women should not be the only members of society to offer up their body as life support. Ethically, it’s not killing someone, it’s refusing to save their life. Do you think we as citizens should all be forced to offer up blood or organs to a dying human being? If not, then you’re a hypocrite to expect a pregnant woman to.

At least be honest and admit you will force a pregnant woman to have control of her body legally taken away from her against her will, even if it traumatises her. I might not agree with you, but at least you’ll have been honest about what you want to achieve.

So Nick, it’s about her body only? She is the only living being in the equasion yes? You’re just contradicting yourself now and still can’t / wont answer the question.

I would not think abortion is “right” in terms of ending a *potential* life, but I would have more respect for a woman’s bodily autonomy than to judge her if she did not feel capable of carrying a pregnancy. Considering the majority of abortions take place at a time where not even nature gives the foetus great odds of survival I can come to some level of peace with it at this stage of pregnancy.
Later term abortions are most frequently for medical reasons so I can make peace with that too.

It’s not just “inconvenience”, pregnancy is a huge undertaking even when you plan for it. Do you feel comfortable forcing that on women regardless of their wishes?

And what about if the baby will not survive, are you ok with terminating in this case or would you force the woman to carry to term to satisfy *your* feelings on the subject?

*You* have made a choice to never have an abortion based upon *your* morals, not that you will ever need one but you are entitled to your views, what you are not entitled to do is *force* your views on everyone else. If a woman cannot face the morning sickness, body changes, hormonal disruption, uncomfortableness (and that’s just an easy pregnancy), then it’s her body and she should be the one who has ultimate say over it.

Not everyone who has an abortion is single, many are already mothers or in long term relationships. Would you expect that these women never have sex with their partners again?

It is about two people – one who requires a blood transfusion from the other. Like any other citizen, a pregnant woman has the right to refuse t give that transfusion, exerting control of her body.

George….your wasting your time getting into a discussion with Nick Beard. She is always right !! I just wonder how she finds the time to comment so much on the Journal. Is this during her job or does she work ?? I’m afraid I’m on the fence when it comes to abortion. I think it’s morally wrong when its used as birth control but believe others should have the right to make that decision for themselves. When it comes to the mothers life been in danger then there’s no argument – IMO the mum most come first.

Nick…..I’ll be back at work so please don’t be waiting for a response from me :-) Have a good day !!

Nick as you are incapable of answering a very easy question and are talking large amounts of b.s I’m not going to participate in this anymore

Thanks Poppy for a straight forward no nonsense comment, haven’t seen too many of these yet.

I answered, George. It’s killing in the same way you not giving a blood transfusion is killing. Forgive me, but you seem to simply want to repeat your viewpoint over and over, rather than understand other’s beliefs.

I do have a job, Poppy. I work with vulnerable women. But even if I didn’t, it’s awful snobby to believe someone’s opinion is valid based on whether or not they work!

George.
When you make the decision to have a baby you have consented to have another person use you as an incubator for 9 months (or even more – they can go overdue). You have decided that you are ok with all the things that go along with pregnancy because you want the baby at the end of it (although many curse their decision for many weeks toward the end, but at that point they tolerate it for the ultimate gain).

Some women when they fall pregnant by accident choose to keep the baby, some decide that they can go through all the body changes and give the baby up for adoption – more power to them, although I worry for the children filling orphanages worldwide waiting for adoption never getting a look in.

These are choices. They are choices that the woman (and in many cases her partner) make based upon what she feels she is capable of, for some women it’s just not feasible. At present they *can* travel, unless they can’t afford it, in which case they are forced to give up autonomy over their own bodies because they didn’t have the means to travel – they are discriminated against based upon their economic position.

I would never want to have an abortion, although I would *have* to. Instead I use contraception and hope that as my chances of conception are greatly reduced I should never fall pregnant, but if I did, I know I would rather be able to take a drug and miscarry than have to be cut open and have my organs removed to save my life.

No, it doesn’t. Not in this context. Bottom line is, had she been given a medical abortion and still tragically died, her CHOICE and that of her family would have been respected. Whether medical or any form of abortion is something you would consider for yourself, nobody has the right to decide for you.

The incidence of maternal death following abortion is approximately 1 in 100,000 according the WHO when abortion is legal and safe. In Ireland 5.7 in every 100,000 women who give birth to a living child will die. Savita isn’t even counted among those cases because she did not give birth to living child.

Why is that Erin?

Because he’s ignoring that complications following a legal abortion are incredibly rare. Complications following childbirth are less so. He is actually misleading people as to the safety of abortion.

I was addressing Erin and my question was why she thinks nobody has the right to decide for each individual, I’m just genuinely interested

Even if complications following abortion were more so than childbirth, it’s completely off point. The woman’s choice was not respected.

George the problem is that doctors can legally ignore the requests of the pregnant woman who’s life is in danger, to save what is essentially just a collection of cells with no nervous system, thoughts, emotions or pain receptors

@George, I explained why in my original comment.

Even if it was a case that more women died post abortion than post childbirth, that is not the issue. A woman who chooses to have an abortion is aware of the risk, as with any surgery. The point is, that was the choice that she made. Not the state, a doctor or the Catholic Church.

We’re back to risks etc and that’s fine but you said “Whether medical or any form of abortion is something you would consider for yourself, nobody has the right to decide for you” why do and so many others think that? Is it because the fetus lives inside the individual so therefore it’s the individuals choice alone?

Are you asking me why I think it’s a woman’s right to choose? If so, it’s pretty straight forward. She alone knows how capable she is of giving birth to/raising the child. There is no sense in getting into a pro-life/choice debate. All that needs to be said on the topic has been. People have differing opinions on the subject and always will have. Mine is that no person has the right to tell you to continue with a pregnancy if you are incapable, for any reason. This woman was dying and asked for an abortion to save her life, the baby had no chance of survival regardless. This can not happen again

Yes Erin and the pro abortion side (let’s call a spade a spade) are using this incident to carry forward their agenda which is that women should be allowed to have abortions willy nilly,regardless of the circumstances. If they don’t think they can handle parenthood they shouldn’t be having sex in the first place, if you play with fire there is a change you’ll get burned. Do you believe the fetus is alive or do you believe life begins at birth?

Again, I won’t get into a debate on this.

Whatever side you are on, Ireland voted 20 years ago and passed a referendum that should have ensured this tragedy didn’t happen. A woman has died because our government haven’t acted on the voice of the people, that’s the bottom line.

Erin, because you refuse to debate I can see that you are a manifestation of the politically correct, modern, liberal phenomenon. You are (in my view) an individualist who is very fashion conscious. You don’t have any ideology of your own so you sit on the fence and observe what others are supporting then you follow along because it’s what you think is the right thing to think. I’m not trying to have a go, i’m just saying you are a symptom not the cause. I have asked you serious questions, challenging your first statement and you have dodged them or provided abstract answers or simply said you don’t wish to enter debate. That’s ok, we’ll agree to disagree.

Erin is pointing out that this is irrelevant to the case at hand. No one is asking for abortion to be legislated for in any other circumstances than maternal life or fatal foetal abnormalities.

The incidence of sepsis following miscarriage, you mean maybe? Isn’t miscarriage spontaneous abortion, as opposed to being medically induced?

Nick – She was saying “Whether medical or any form of abortion is something you would consider for yourself, nobody has the right to decide for you”. There are no ambiguities there.

You may make any assumption you wish about me or my personality. I won’t be drawn into a debate about a bigger issue than the one at hand. Especially considering that your statement regarding sex and pregnancy tells me everything I need to know about you.

@Nick, exactly. Regardless of what I believe as a whole, the point is this should not have happened.

Pro-choice / abortion groups have latched on to this tragic event and fuelled with speculation are driving a pro-choice campaign. It’s no longer about learning from this unfortunate and regrettable tragedy to prevent it happing again. Exploring other possibilities isn’t palatable nor is waiting on the official inquiry findings, better to demonise anyone with opposing views.

Believing her husband is not “being fuelled by speculation.” If his account is correct (and he’s the least biased person in this), legislation would have helped this woman. Following his wishes and legislating before it’s too late is the way to make sure this tragedy is not in vein.

Tom, you took the words out of my mouth!

@ Nick
While I have the deepest sympathy and can only imagine the grief this man is going through, neither husband or wife was medically qualified to make this decision and this is the problem it’s speculation that an abortion would have made a difference it’s more likely it would not have, but now I’m speculating and that’s is just as bad. I advocate waiting for the official findings and knowing the facts make an informed rational decision as a society on how we should proceed.

It’s not more than likely. Prolonged labour extends risk of complications. That’s an undeniable fact. While we cannot be sure that it would have definitely made a difference, allowing a woman to suffer in prolonged labour is an accident waiting to happen.

Regardless of the specifics of this case, several doctors have now come forward to say they feel the medical guidelines are not clear enough. We need to support them so that no doctor ever feels that he can’t offer the best treatment due to the law.

http://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/did-irish-catholic-law-or-malpractice-kill-savita-halappanavar/

Blog from an OB/GYN putting forth her opinion based upon the facts that have emerged this far and her medical knowledge.. Interesting reading.

And it’s people like John Hayes that make a lot of us cringe with embarrassment, when they make statements like that. Surely you should be saying that you are proud to be a member of that evil Roman Catholic organisation! That would be more appropriate, me thinks!!

Yes John, you are so pro-life, that you would allow two people to die in order to protect a bunch of cells. Pro life people anger me so much because they impose their opinions on everyone else. Allow people to make individual choices!

@ Matthew for some of us who have suffered miscarriages it was never just ‘a bunch of cells’. Pro life and pro choice both need to be sensitive on this topic. Neither hold the moral highground.

Matthew, it sounds like you are imposing your opinions on others. this is a democracy of sorts and he is entitled to express his opinions regardless of if you agree or disagree

Eimear, that’s fine, you’re absolutely entitled to your opinion. But what John is saying is that he is proud that we live in a country where a woman who was dying wasn’t given the choice to terminate. He would prefer women like Savita were sacrificed rather than abortion be legislated for. As a woman, I find that thinking scary.

@nick, I wasn’t agreeing with John at all. I am in favour of TFMR. I was disagreeing with ( in my opinion) insensitive phrasing.

I think it’s incredibly insensitive of John to pretty much imply that this woman is less important than any other life.

Don’t feed the troll.

Very original Kevin, how long were you waiting to say that?!

Matthew I am a. Roman Catholic. I believe abortion to be wrong and I find the way pro choice people refer to a bunch of cells to bring ridiculous. When a woman finds out she’s pregnant she doesn’t say “I’m expecting a bunch of cells” or she doesn’t say “I’m expecting something that is part of the human race but not a person”. The fact is pro choice people call the baby a bunch of cells cause they don’t have to say that they are destroying a baby.

Bpdeasy, it is an ethical question, not a scientific one. As you can see from myself and Eimear, who both had miscarriages and both have very different views of abortion as a result. Some women see it as person right away, some don’t.

I’m pro choice and I believe it’s a person. Some pro choice people do not – but it’s ridiculous to accuse pro choice people of having guilty consciences. Plenty of people experience pregnancy and are aware of science and genuinely have different conclusions than you do.

Nick would you mind me asking: “I’m pro choice and I believe it’s a person” so to kill / terminate / end the existance of innocent and defenceless life, that’s ok in your opinion?

Innocent and defenceless? If you’re going to be particularly emotive rather than interested in debate, I’m not going to engage with you.

I don’t believe anyone has the right to stay alive by forcing a blood transfusion from another human being. We extend that right to no one else in society – why should foetuses be given rights than borne children are not?

Wait and see, Mr Dinosaur!

Nick how do you reconcile that with your Christianity?

My church allows for abortions, as we feel your conscience is direct communication with God.

@George how deluded are you? ‘An innocent, defenceless life’? A foetus is a collection of cells. Until around the 24 week mark of the pregnancy, it has no nervous system or pain receptors, and if terminated, would not suffer in any way, shape or form. To give you a scale of this, a 3 day old embryo has 150 cells, a fly has 100,000 cells in its brain alone. How can you say that terminating a pregnancy is the same as killing?