The management of the administration process was very weird from day one. I know from good authority that on March 31 2010 at approx 1pm the administrators came into the head office in Cavan and by 3pm or so they had issued a directive to all staff quoting UK policyholders to cease giving quotes immediately. Now even if the uk market was in a mess (and Quinn always disputes that) how could they have established that fact in a mere two hours? As anyone who has company audits carried out will tell you auditors can spend days or weeks going over figures or records before coming up with advice of where cuts should be made. So it lends validity to Quinn’s argument that Elderfield had other reasons for targeting QI other than those stated. Also I seem to remember the administrators saying 6 months into the process that after 1200 or so jobs were lost, the company would not cost the taxpayer a penny?? And they are paying themselves €400 – €500 PER HOUR for this information. Surely at this stage the government had to step in and have an investigation into what is going on here. They owe the taxpayer that much at least.

If what Alison says is correct, there is something rotten to the core in this saga, and the people of IReland deserve to be told the truth NOW.

Alison – as far as i’m aware the reason the company was taken from Quinn control was because they refused in the face of Regulator instruction to put proper reserves in place to cover potential losses. without these reserves they end up paying claims from current cash (hence the ponzi scheme references). shutting down UK underwriting didnt need any lead time – it was purely risk management. the administrators couldnt allow more business to be underwritten until reserves were available to cover the potential losses of that new business.
While these new costs seem crazy to any observer – Sean Quinns lost the moral highground when he faced down the Regulator and refused to comply with industry regulations!

Deborah Sakac.
Your view of this situation is a little simplistic.
I suppose if it makes you feel better by having found “a” culprit then thats fine.
But look beyond Quinns implication and ask yourself why the regulator failed to recognise a potentially dangerous situation.
One thing however is for sure.
We will never find out the full truth.
Particularly with FF at the helm, at the time of inception.

Deborah comments are entirely correct. Yes the Financial Regulator should have a case to answer, but that in no way should stop Sean Quinn being thrown out of an industry he had little regard in following the rules of, to the detriment of policyholders, claimants and now the entire Insurance population of Ireland, today and for the next generation who havent even been born yet!

Actually the Financial Regulator told Quinn to get his house in order several times over the last few years but Quinn failed to do this, instead preferring to use cash reserves as his own little investment fund. Perhaps his main error was in letting it go on so long when by rights he should have refused Quinn an insurance licence unless he became compliant.

You have it all wrong, and when did running a business become a crime

When you fail to run your business in the manner that the industry sets down. And in such a reckless way that you put at risk not just the company but the lives of policyholders whose money you have accepted to cover any potential losses to them in the future, by way of compensation to them for losses sustained in an insurable event (eg a fire or theft) or being able to provide legal representation and indemnity in respect of judgements against them (eg getting sued after a motor accident) . That’s when it becomes a crime to run a business

Why is he a disgrace? Just tell me why is he a disgrace? How has his mistakes affected you personally. I must admit I’m sitting on the fence with Sean Quinn I feel there’s much worse people out there to be angry at.

Ultimately, he is standing up to Bankers and their accomplices in Gov’t.

Daffy..it’ll affect everyone of us by adding to our car, home, public & employers liability insurances and every other insurance policy taken out for the next 25 years….for the gambling of this guy.

Well Daffy, first of all he ran his insurance business on a foundation of quick sand. He had not got the legally required capital that is required for insurance companies to be able to pay out on claims if needed. Where was this money? It was gambled on shares in a bank. When this gamble failed, rather than accept the failure of his personal gamble he saddled the insurance company with it and set about hiding all his personal assets so he could avoid any personal consequence.

Wether he was lied to or not is irrelevent. All investments carry risks so if Anglo had been run perfectly and his investment was successful Mr Quinn would still have been engaging in activity he shouldn’t have by gambling with money which should have been kept to cover liabilities.

And how has it affected regular people? Well the levy on insurance policies should answer that question for you.

2% levy?

Does that include the Billions that the regulator, IBRC and our fine leaders and protectors will ineptly squander and give to their vested interests in the name of ”protecting the taxpayer”

You’re some flute. Propaganda is all that has been, until now. This is the first break of what history will show to be an avalanche of corruption. The Quinns were screwed. Read this “I will guarantee that will pay every penny if they let me”. They chose not to let him’ why? Use the ounce of loaf you have there upstairs currently operating your breathing.

Daffy my insurance premiums have gone ballistic, the likes of this guy have driven it

@Lamb – Quinn Insurance drove insurance costs down in the Irish market a lot more than 2%. His claims model has been copied by every insurance company in Ireland to varying degrees. Even allowing for the 2% levy you’re undoubtedly paying lower insurance.
Beyond that, Sean Quinn is not solely responsible for the astronomical amounts that are being drawn from the ICF. Whether you believe that Quinn Insurance was loss making or not, the amounts that are needed are also substantially down to
1. the incorrect politically motivated decisions that drove the appointment of the administrators,
2. the choice of Liberty ahead of the more rational Quinn/Anglo plan and
3. the absolute inept mismanagement of the claims book by the administrators.

It’s understandable for people to blame Quinn for the levy, but the contributory factors to the amounts to be paid clearly go well beyond him

This is true. But don’t forget that Anglo lent Sean Quinn group the money to buy Anglo stock in order to try and inflate the perceived value of Anglo share price. This did not work and is now why we as a country are neck deep in sh1t. I think that there are serious crimes committed but I don’t see anyone but Quinn being held to account. He was not alone in propping up Anglo share prices. Where have the others gone.

Yes, Mary, Anglo/IBRC have made sure that the public focuses on the 2% levy. That is a pittance by comparison to the amount we will have to pay for their 38BILLION debt. How much will each and every individual have to pay for that? We don’t know? Good PR on Anglo’s behalf!!!!! Let’s focus on Quinn’s (MUCH lesser) debt instead. And what is worse is that we are actually paying these guys 1000 euro an HOUR.

David, he had 25% of Anglo bought , contracts for difference were a way of buying unknown to the bank, when he told them or when they found out that’s when the doo doo hit the fan , greedy man and now delusion man a disgrace.

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

@David – aren’t Sean Fitzpatrick and other former Anglo execs facing some charges in relation to this?

You clearly do not understand. the situation. This proves that the Quinn supporters were right all along.

@kevin smyth I don’t feel ashamed of myself for showing support for Sean Quinn. Not at all.

Oh look – another social media profile created just for supporting Sean Quinn.

Sean Quinn may once have been an excellent business man but he got into areas that he know nothing about and the rest of us will be bearing the consequences of it for many years to come.

People rightly spit the name Anglo like it was a piece of dirt. Sean Quinn thought the bank was so great he bought 25% of it by contracts for difference at the height of the madness.

He broke insurance law by using the reserves he was supposed to be holding to finance other areas of his business.

He thought he could do the RyanAir of insurance in the UK and this is why 2% of all your insurance bills for the next 25 years will go towards paying off his stupidity.

I don’t understand how anyone, but the anti-Quinn banners could feel foolish given todays revelations….Even Noonan is ‘wondering’ was the take-over a bit of a hasty decision..

Excellent post.

YF – another Sean Quinn social media profile.

The mistake the administrators made was that they underestimated Sean Quinn’s stupidity in the UK insurance market. The massive hole in Quinn Insurance UK would only have got bigger if the administrators had not been sent in.

(Perhaps someone could explain why we are paying for poor practice in another jurisdiction – surely Quinn Insurance UK was the responsibility of the UK regulator and any losses should be borne by their equivalent ICF fund?)

And these administrators are not deluded? They don’t seem to have a clue what they are doing and what they are talking about…And they are so quick to point the finger when Quinn put a foot out of place….Madness! Is it true that we, the taxpayer are paying the ‘administrators’ ridiculous salaries??? Yes!

Steve,
And you think that the running of Quinn Direct and the huge and mounting debts they have run up since the take-is not the equivalent of ‘things getting worse’??

@donal mc if your referring to my account just to let you know that I have not created it just to support the Quinn’s. I don know the Quinn’s and have nothing at all to do with the Quinn’s.

I am using this to learn more about the story at hand and to read other peoples replays, I taught that was the idea of this.

I know that Sean Quinn is a gambler and we will all be paying in the long run but when I hear the name Sean Quinn there is a “but” there. I don’t mean to anger anyone I’m just trying to work out the “but” that is in my mind.

People talk abbot Quinn supporters or how he cost them. The fact is that giving FG /Lab or Anglo cash or. Assets. Is a complete waste better of with Quinn or whoever owned them!! They tell us Nama is making a profit hilarious all spin blatant fairy stories. When the truth finally comes out how Anglo targeted Quinn like a drug dealer intent on robbing him and he gets compensated then you will actually pay for his mistakes!!

Exactly Michelle. One would have to seriously question these administrators. Looks like Quinn was right to have put up a fight after all…..

Undercutting competitors in the entry to the UK market that saw payouts 5 times what they took in premiums and mismanagement of provision for currency fluctuations. Administrators stopped taking new business from uk on taking over.

Michelle, theres a number of factors that went against him, that most other insurance companies dont practise, which is why they are still inoperation centuries after foundation, and why QIL has died after less than 2 decades.

Firstly he grossly underquoted certain sectors of the market, which nearly broke his compant in the late 90s, only for him to plough millions into it himself to keep it afloat. This has an effect that claims dont always come to settlement within the life of the policy, but can take years to come to finalisation. Its good management to set aside most of every premium, usually at least 80-85%, but in circumstances can be more, in order to cover potential claims. This monies is usually put into easily accessed, liquid assets like government bonds, which earn a return, are state guaranteed and preserve the initial capital investment. Quinn, unfortunately for us chose to do two amazingly risky things. Firstly he chose to invest in property, the hotel industry and other more difficult to liquidate assets, which do not have investment protection, so when the property and economic collapse came the initial monies invested (ie policyholder premiums supposed to pay claims) were decimated. Secondly the amount he invested was well below what he should have been setting aside, partly because of his refusal to employ industry actuaries who calculate these figures, but also because the haste in which he wants his claims handlers to settle claims below market value bullys vulnerable people into accepting amounts that they could get more for if they werent so doorstepped. This didnt happen with the English though. They dont care for the Irish style and claims from his UK arm rose and rose, whilst premia fell way short to cover any potential losses. Solicitors claims for example in the UK are apparently going to cost over 300m, yet the entire book of premiums collected on those policies is a mere 65m.

His arrogance when dealing with Industry authorities has been staggering. He was already warned once before Elderfield came in. He ignored it. Its all well and good saying he saved you a few bob 5,6,7 years ago. But its going to cost us all many more times that over the next 25 years. I had no dealings with Quinn in any form throughout my Insurance buying life, and I abhorr having to bail out this shyster well into my future old age. He (and a lot more alonside him I will admit) deserve no pity, no support, no blind following. Even excluding what he has done with Anglo, he has been a blight on the economic landscape of the country, whatever his previous good work in the border counties.

Great post Mark – sums it up in one. Also the fact that managers in Quinn put aside any claims on their long fingers because they got bonuses for keeping claims at a minimum

great post Mark, but unfortunately the Quinn’s supporters seem oblivious to facts.

Great post mark, should have a headline and its own column, Explainer; how Sean Quinn cost the country €1.6bln and rising!

Excellent post Mark!

You’re Ciaran Morgan. Someone who obviously believes all they read in Anglo led media. But on, in a vast field of sheep

(one)

Your comment is hilarious and incorrect on many levels…’I let my son go to jail’? What should Sean Senior have done? Hijacked the prison van enroute to prison? Come on Ciaran!

No he was responsible for organising the asset moves and used his family members as foot soldiers. He did let his son go to jail.

Is the answer Christy Browne??

Des,
While i agree that we are paying …the big question now is why are we paying?
The question the government seem to be taking an interest in now is whether or not the ‘bailing out of’ (as you put it) the insurance company was a good idea….it looks to me (but i’m not highly paid accountant or administrator) like it was an extremely BAD decision.
Why are we paying back Anglo’s loans? Because, the government decided to burden us with their debt. Sean Quinn’s (very disputed) debt is only a drop in the ocean of what Anglo owe. Quinn was dealing with a private loan/debt. I don’t believe that anyone could say it is his fault that the taxpayer is being hit for this debt. The government made the call…not Quinn

I believe we will be paying a heck of a lot more now that these ‘administrators’ have taken over all of Quinn’s businesses. They clearly do not know what they are doing. Yet they pay themselves a handsome salary!

Nice one Des I was woundering when that was going to come my way.

Yes.

Can anyone tell me.

As the company is now supposed to be owned by Liberty Mutual.
Will Liberty Mutual benefit in any way from having this new inflated €1.6 Billion bailout figure?

If Quinn was running his Insurance business illegally for 15 years.

Is the financial regulator not in some way partly responsible?

Does he not deserve some bad press?

I don’t think anyone would argue the Patrick Neary was anything but atrocious. That doesn’t excuse actions like illegal loans from the insurance business leaving its reserves short.

@alan the state did make a mistake they should have left him with his company to pay back the loans himself.

Daffy, Quinn Insurance was effectively a dead duck since long before the administrators went anywhere near it.

Oh believe me, we are proud of our convictions and have no problem going public in support of Quinn.

However, for the purpose of getting our comments posted on sites such as this, we have had to change our identities as guess what———someone had us barred from posting comments that ask awkward questions. Does that not answer your question?

Oh nonsense, maybe it’s because some of you supporters get very personal when it comes to replying to those who don’t agree with them? Or is that also part of the big conspiracy?

Ah rusty9. Is that the best you can come up with? How come you haven’t been barred for asking the ‘awkward’ questions? Or is that what happened to rusty’s 1 to 8? I’ll keep an eye out for rusty10 after you’ve been barred for being such a threat to the establishment. It must be very exciting in your world.

@Rusty
Oh? Please tell us more…

Deborah,
Unless you have a crystal ball, i don’t know how you can say that Quinn is accountable for the majority of the losses. That is what is going to be (hopefully, according to Noonan), be investigated. Elderfield sent Quinn Direct into administration because the company had been run without the legal requirements in reserves. On the day the administrators were sent into the company (they later found) that the correct reserves were in the company on that day and for a time before that.
At the same time it was proven that VHI were running their company without the correct and legal reserves….where were the administrators here? Easy to see double standards coming into play

If what YF is saying is correct, this has the potential to bring down the Government for failing to act in accordance with natural justice and lets hope that the agents of the State who were implicit in the greatest scam in the history of the State are locked up indefinitely.
Oh, I forgot, they are public servants and will retire on their fat salaries leaving the taxpayers to clean up the mess that they left behind.

Rusty, administrators were appointed to Quinn Insurance in March 2010. The government didn’t take office until a year later (although I’ll grant you it does feel like more than 17 months since they got into power)…

Mattoid, I am aware of when this Government came into power. My point is that they failed to act on very serious allegations that were put before them on numerous occasions in the best interest of the taxpayers.

We have separation of court and state in this country…

You honestly think the serfs are going to allow a little thing like the truth get on the way of their fanaticism. Some of them might be smart enough to know what the instruments are, however doubt they will let it distort their mindset.

Marist, there is nothing inappropriate or illegal about purchasing CFD’s and I suspect that you already know that.. Are you suggesting that everybody including the Minister for Finance who invested in Anglo,, by whatever method was stupid?

Nothing illegal when youre betting with your own money, just risky and stupid.

YF can you provide a reference for your assertion that QI had the required reserves at the time the administrators came in?

Peter Quinn made reference to it in his radio interview last week and Sean Quinn repeated it in his statement today http://www.mediafire.com/?knc9sw2752xy72c

If the quinns said it then it must be true, it’s not like they were caught on tape laughing about lying under oath or anything…

Faceless,
I don’t believe either of the men I mentioned were caught on tape lying…

@ faceless man the two men mentioned by Y.F. were not caught laughing about lying in court. Why are you tarring these men with the same brush?

YF if that were the case the High Court would not have agreed to the application to put the company into receivership.

Mattoid, could it be that the High COurt was also misled. Watch this space.

Rusty I don’t have the court transcripts but clearly the Quinn legal team would have brought this up at the time if it were indeed true.

@Mattoid – Assuming you’re talking about Quinn Insurance and meant to say Administration not receivership, the board of Quinn Insurance did present this information, but the company was rashly placed into immediate administration rather than the administrator taking a week to do proper analysis on the situation. The regulator certainly didn’t have a full grounding of all the issues, the high court much less so.
YF’s point is there is more to the story than has been presented. Your assertion that that can’t be the case, otherwise the High Court wouldn’t have acted as it did, is an immensely naive reading of the situation.

CM
Administration is one of the final steps in a very long and exhaustive process, and the High Court do not take this step lightly. I find it very hard to believe the Quinnspin that they rushed into it – this is just not the way the High Court operates. Unless of course you’re suggesting that the High Court was also part of some grand anti-Quinn conspiracy?

With regard to the reserves being in place on the day administrators were allocated, in the absence of full court transcripts (which would be very interesting) we only have Sean and Peter Quinn’s word to take for this.

Regardless of the financial situation on the day, one of the reasons cited for putting the company into administration was “serious and persistent breaches” of the solvency rules covering insurance.

Whether you like it or not, Sean Quinn had form in this area and this was no doubt one of the factors the High Court took into consideration when making its decision.

@Mattoid – So you’re suggesting that the Quinns are lying and that there had been a protracted process? Because even Elderfield didn’t say that – the day the administrators were appointed he was quoted as saying
“that it emerged LAST WEEK that the strength of Quinn Insurance had been over stated by around €450m”. At no point has he in any way said the process went on longer

So it’s not a question of what you believe. These are verifiable facts and regardless of your clear bias on all things Quinn, unless you can quote a source suggesting there was a “long and exhaustive process” before the appointment of administrators, don’t pass off as fact that the High Court (who were involved for 1-2 court days) would never rush into anything or that they would never make an incorrect decision in supporting or rejecting a regulator’s suggestion.

You can dispute Sean and Peter’s claims – time well tell where the truth lies on the reserves in March ’10, but there is no “Regardless” when it comes to the financial situation on the day. That was core. The other reason – Quinn’s prior breaches (the only specifics of which that we know about he’d already been punished for) would not have been enough to push the administration process through if the present day policyholders were safe. It’s only your hypothesis on the High Court reasoning, but Elderfield first mentioned the previous breaches weeks after the initial appointment of administrators, not at the point he proposed it. If you’re right and those were the main reasons, then you’re also in agreement that the public hasn’t been given the full facts.

“The other reason – Quinn’s prior breaches (the only specifics of which that we know about he’d already been punished for) would not have been enough to push the administration process through if the present day policyholders were safe.”

Then by your line of reasoning the High Court evidently decided that the present day policy holders were NOT safe!

No, I quite clearly am not. I’m arguing that Elderfield misrepresented the situation to the high court with poor, rushed analysis. As is the original post.
You’ve made up nonsense regarding the long and exhaustive process of the High Court.
You’ve argued that Quinn’s the reserves couldn’t have been right, or else the company would have argued the point, when in fact they had.
And when I ask you for your source for that long and exhaustive process of the high court, you refuse. Instead you ignore the fact that you’ve made all that up and imply again that the high court couldn’t have made a mistake, so therefore the claims had to have been underreserved (silly me. It suddenly makes sense when you put it that way – it’s impossible for the High Court to make an incorrect, rash judgement regardless of whether they’ve been presented with rushed analysis. Everything that happened was the right thing to happen (as long as Quinn was on the receiving end, eh). )
You gonna log into your 3rd account now for a few clicks?? Good man – about standard really given your obvious respect for the truth.

Mattoid, have you forgotten that ANglo seized Quinn Group as a first resort and prior to the legitimacy of the 2.3 billion alleged debt being established in a court of law. Why do you think that the administration process of Quinn Insurance was in order?

@CM (you may want to read it too Rusty)
Please do not misquote me. I did not say that the High Court itself was a long and exhaustive process. I said that “administration is one of the final steps in a very long and exhaustive process” which is absolutely truthful and accurate. Here is a little history for you – not something which I ‘made up’ as you mischievously claim, but a series of indisputable facts which are a matter of public record:

The long and exhaustive process was already in train back in 2008, when the then Financial Regulator said that it had “reasonable cause” to suspect that Quinn Insurance had engaged in “breaches of regulatory requirements” when QI was found to be loaning money from its cash reserves to other companies in the Quinn group but failing to comply with the legal requirement to inform the FR. On this occasion QI was fined €3.2m and Quinn himself was fined €200,000 and was told to put his house in order.

Throughout 2009 QI failed to build up its cash reserves as legally required – it appeared to be just business as usual for Quinn despite FR warnings. For the first few months of 2010 Quinn was working closely with the FR to put a recovery plan in place (which the FR said on several occasions was completely inadequate citing totally unrealistic profit forecasts, but still gave Quinn the benefit of the doubt in order to give the company every chance to survive).

On March 24 2010 the FR finally discovered that Quinn had used the QI cash reserves as collateral for loans to the Quinn Group in general to the tune of €448m, and it was on foot of this that he applied to the High Court for administrators to be appointed. You could say it was the straw that broke the camel’s back, when it became abundantly clear that the company was effectively insolvent. On March 30 2010 the High Court appointed provisional administrators (who incidentally have the same powers as receivers in Ireland).

The administrators then had a fortnight to examine the Quinn books to try and establish the best way forward before a second hearing on April 14th 2010 (this did not happen overnight as some Quinn supporters including yourself have maintained), whilst the Quinn group had the same time to put together its case.

On April 14th the FR applied to the High Court for a one week delay in the hearing to allow further talks with Quinn (again giving him the benefit of the doubt). During this period Quinn agreed to withdraw his objection to the appointment of administrators and their appointment was finally confirmed by the High Court on 21st April.

Your statement that “the company was rashly placed into immediate administration rather than the administrator taking a week to do proper analysis on the situation” is clearly complete nonsense based on the factual record, but perhaps you ‘made it up’?

Several Quinn supporters have claimed that the required reserves were in place at the time of the initial High Court hearing, however when I have asked for a source for this information I have just been told that “the Quinn brothers said so”. Well guess what? Surprise surprise, no source could be provided because the claim is completely untrue. Whilst QI had assets exceeding liabilities at the time, it did not have the legally required 150% solvency margin.

And as for your comment about me having multiple accounts to manipulate the thumbs, well I will treat that absurd claim with the derision it deserves. It is quite noticeable though that many of the Quinn supporters on here are new to The Journal and do not comment on any other threads apart from Quinn-related ones. Read into that what you will.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ec400446-45ad-11df-9e46-00144feab49a.html#axzz23B7wkQpi
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/7abe62e2-48ee-11df-8af4-00144feab49a.html#axzz23B7wkQpi
http://www.insolvencyjournal.ie/home_more_details/10-03-31/Quinn_administration_FAQs.aspx
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/emmet-oliver-quinn-insurance-was-indulged-for-far-too-long-2120420.html
http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/courtreports/articles/2010/04/21/3996551-high-court-confirms-quinn-insurance-administration/

All the dates and all – You were busy. Good weekend so far?

Your “straw that broke the camels back” analogy implies the 455m was a final, but individually relatively insignificant contributory detail in the appointment of administrators. An absolutely laughable implication. With that in mind your essay goes through every detail prior to administration as if each was a point along the path to that process.

The administrators were appointed based on the Regulator’s assertion that policyholders wouldn’t have first call on the assets, with him having taken a week to ascertain the legalities on who actually would. Whether there were issues for 5 days or 5 years prior to that, on that relatively insignificant “straw”, the 455m, the regulator took less than a week to decide something that’s still in dispute 2 years on. So I’ll reiterate – the company was rashly placed into immediate administration rather than the administrator (regulator) taking a week to do proper analysis on the situation.

“this did not happen overnight as some Quinn supporters including yourself have maintained” – who’s putting words into whose mouth Matty?

And as regards people posting on here only on the Quinn articles, having a strong opinion on this case isn’t any less relevant because we don’t feel the need to spend all day commenting on every Lost Dog story in the press. I can’t speak for everyone, but I’d guess some have jobs, some maybe have families. Some might even have lives.

If Quinn is so bad, why did 5000 people come out in support of him at the rally??

If all of the privately schooled inbreed bankers, ”leaders/protectors” and tax fugitve billionaires in the country were sentenced to life in prison, how many people would come out to support them??

There would probably be 10,000 people out, to jeer them and to make sure that they weren’t let of the hook.

My comment, below was for you Mick,
I don’t work in insurance but i don’t think that because they were able to get your number, they were dodgy….. Strange logic.
Also I’m sure every company has many happy, sad, indifferent stories…like the ones from band camp

Are either of you, Charlie or yourself willing clearly state that he should be held accountable in a court for all the laws he has already broken and any ones possibly in the future?
Or are ye going to continue with the garbage (that VERY few is swallowing) espousing that the man has suffered enough – he should be allowed get away with breaking the law!

I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s a discussion Harry. The entrenchment from the Quinnites is fairly deep that very little factual evidence to prove how corrupt Sean Quinn and his criminal behaving family is actually getting through. The position taken that it’s an either/or situation is also very hard to break. Personally I think they all should be strung up; Seanie Fitz, Drumm, Bertie, Neary, Elderfield, etc etc etc, along with anyone else who has contributed to the demise of the state, and that includes Mr. Sean Quinn and his family, for various reasons, not limited to, but including, running a business in an illegal fashion, giving assets offshore that were used as collateral, obstructing investigating unto his moneytrails around Europe, failing ti abide by the laws of the land when directed by the courts. Yes, we will still make our points against Quinn, but the wall seems intent on failing to understand.

The wall don’t want to hear what it don’t like!

Well said Harry

Denis I think you call him !!!!

And you don’t think Quinnspin is propaganda??

Sean Quinn has not ‘got off’ Biggins. He is bankrupt, his businesses have been taken off him, his kids are going to have to move out of their homes, his only son is in jail and it is likely he will follow. How is that ‘get off’?

So Biggins if you found yourself in a situation that if you needed to break a law to get off would you do it, break the law?? Or just hold you hand up and say it was me.

The honourable man would hold his hand up and admit he was caught bang to rights.

With the hundreds of millions he and his family have illegally moved abroad I doubt they’re really that poor…

@ Charlie Bucket

Well you and Harry Markopolos seem to think just because he suffered due to his own actions that “O’ well the laws of the land can then bypass him and him mob!”

The last week ye and your Quinn supporters have espoused this line “O’ how the man has suffered…”
…Yet you all too willingly wish to dismiss with out even a rare mention of those that have been left unemployed and further suffering in their wake!

…And don’t tell me they are poor!

I suspect the government has yet to half discover where any of the rest of possible hidden money and assets are squirrelled away!

The PR campaign between yourself Charlie and Harry, this last week has been a clear exhibition of double-standards, one sided sight and even blindness in the fact of facts.

…And the facts are this – he broke the law – some serious laws!

Are either of you willing clearly state that he should be held accountable in a court for all the laws he has already broken and any ones possibly in the future?
Or are ye going to continue with the garbage (that VERY few is swallowing) espousing that the man has suffered enough – he should be allowed get away with breaking the law!

Double-standards.
One law for the likes of him and his mob and another for the remaining people, the rest of the country.

Biggins, I suspect that the Government along with the people who fall for the Anglo propaganda, has a lot to learn about this story.

Still no answer yet then from Charlie or Harry to my question above – their sudden silence so far says loads!
I ask the question again to them:

Are either of you willing clearly state that he should be held accountable in a court for all the laws he has already broken and any ones possibly in the future?
Or are ye going to continue with the garbage (that VERY few is swallowing) espousing that the man has suffered enough – he should be allowed get away with breaking the law!

We will await (again) for your answers.

Ye seem quick to reply to others and put across your blind spin – suddenly ye go all quiet!

Maybe they have a life Biggins ,and don’t sit in front of their laptop all day….or maybe they’re ignoring you…which would be perfectly understandable also…

You would believe any Bs printed by anyone. Have u no brain can you not think for yourself? If it quacks like a duck is it a regulator. The stupid thing is your home and business could well be next. If you were able to think for yourself instead of repeating lies fed to you it might all be so different.

Exactly James. I think our Minister for Finance should be finding out exactly what WE, the TAXPAYER, are paying for these guys.

Biggins, jumping on Damien Aulsberry’s bandwagon??? I’m sure he won’t be impressed. As you know, that question was asked and answered the other evening…. Unlike you, I don’t particularly like repeating myself!

So answer the question here and stop avoiding it!

Based on what Michael? The answer to that question is most likely “Anglo propaganda”.

Based on opening your eyes, doing 360 degrees and taking on board the pressure people have been put under by these greedy cats who have borrowed money from all the banks with little security.
We have bailed out the banks.
Get your head out of the sand and understand what really went on and is still going on now.
Maybe you are one of these pussy cats!!
Kop on, grow up and be realistic.

Sean Quinn did not get us to bail out the banks Micheal, our government did. I wish people would get their “head out of the sand and understand what really went on”. Sean Quinn is not blameless, but our government and Anglo are deflecting all the blame onto him. He is being made a complete scapegoat.

Bank’s dished out money recklessly on an aggressive, dog eat dog, self regulated commissions driven basis.

Now with full government support they are throwing people out of their homes and businesses.
(Except for themselves and the chosen few of course)

Agreed Harry, but what does that have to do with Quinn’s wrongdoings?

The Quinns have businesses and homes, and a reckless bank dished out money recklessly on an aggressive, dog eat dog, self regulated commissions driven basis to the Quinns.

Now with full government support IBRC want to throw the Quinn family members out of their homes and businesses.

Should have done a bit of cowboy building guys.
You would be able to keep your homes and income and buy nice toys, just like the protected ones, with media immunity in NAMA.

He is a disgrace on the simple fact that he broke clear banking laws – he lied and defied the Irish court and its orders.

This is simple to see – not rocket science and despite two here trying to say its all the Anglo’s fault, NO ONE FORCED Sean Quinn and his family to break the law but their OWN actions.

Laws of the land which they too are accountable to – or is it now one rule for one lot and another for the rest of the country?

Now, now Biggins, You’re getting boring! That question was asked by Damien Aulsberry the other evening, and answered by both of us. You were on line at the time but maybe you were dozing. Does Damien know that you are jumping on his bandwagon? He may not be impressed BIGins.

So in other words your avoiding answering the question here?

Right – we all got that!

No He’s not.

Now he thinks he should get away with it – and others think he should too!
With that mentality around its no wonder law breakers get off light!

Since when is investing in an Irish Bank that was regulated by the Financial Regulator and supervisor by Government, a gambling addiction? Are you saying that every investor is a gambling addict?

He bought CFD’s, which effectively are a gamble on the share price.

Mattoid, so is every investment,

Rusty CFDs are very different to investing in shares and are extremely risky as you stand to lose far more than your total initial investment. They are nothing more than a bet on a share price. Please educate yourelf.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_for_difference#section_3

Thanks Paul.
So anyone could set up and insurance/financial services company in Ireland and milk it dry for €100′s millions for 10-15 years?

No. Just Sean Quinn:)

Actually that’s not strictly true. Financial regulation was such a joke in this country for so many years that anyone could’ve done it. Sean Quinn just took advantage of the light touch regulation that was in vogue at the time.

@Harry, the problem was that NEXT to the milking Quinn insurance invested in assets that where subject to devaluation. Where decent insurance companies invested in government bonds and other very stable assets, Quinn invested in pubs, hotels, golf courses and other silly things.

Joey, have you not heard that the reserves were fine on the day of the administration, which is more than can be said for Quinn’s competitors.
You have a lot to learn and may be very surprised at how you have been played for a fool.

According to Quinn himself rusty…

Why was this evidence not provided to the High Court at the time?

@ Mattoid, Peter Quinn too said that the reserves were met the day the administrators went in. Peter Quinn always was, and is a well respected business man. He has never been caught up with any wrong doing. Peter Quinn is not going to go on radio and tell a lie. In hindsight Sean Quinn should have gone to court and fought Quinn Insurance being put into administration, but he believed the fat cat administrators, that the best way to get Quinn Insurance back was to submit a viable plan.

A correct reserve figure cannot be calculated within a few hours of taking over the company. Administrators would need to review open and active claim files to determine what values were put upon notified claims by Quinn to determine the ballpark region of monies that would be required to settle. Some of the issues would have related to the calculations Quinn himself put upon claims. His method in Ireland to settling claims was very unique and extremely adversarial. He had been sanctioned before regarding his pushy and near bullying tactics to force claimants into settling early; a favourite strategy was to employ retired Gardai as loss assessors, not intimidating at all!!

Now the files had been reviewed its been revealed that he has had a continual under estimation building over a number of years, which not only has snowballed, but the gamble he made trying to bridge the gap had also failed. Of course Peter is going to say what he said, and of course you are going to believe him, because it won’t matter how much evidence is placed before you, the Quinnites will dismiss it all as victimisation. Well sorry, the only victims around here are the Taxpaying Irish Public, once again!

Strange then Mark that the administrators said that there would be no call on the ICF. The truth is beginning to come out.

Anniversary of the Somme I believe………..

Yes and so would those selling herbal tea and medicines!

The reason Sean Quinn was able to offer such cheap car insurance was he wasn’t worried about trivial matters such as building up adequate reserves out of which he could pay future claims. This is the reason we are being hit with the new levy. How can people not see that?

Was Quinn running the business like that for the 15 odd years that Quinn Insurance was in business Paul?

O’ well in that case – despite he personally breaking very serious laws – we should let him off of course!

Aaa… NO!

Harry we covered this yesterday – maybe you weren’t paying attention…
It was being operated as a pyramid scheme – as long as the new customer base continued to grow to provide funds to pay off the claims of existing customers all would superficially appear to be good. However as with all pyramid scemes there is always a finite pool of new customers, so at some point (could have been 5 years, 10 years, 15 years or even longer) when that pool is exhausted the whole scheme crashes as the cost of claims exceeds the cash taken in from new customers.

You may have been quoted a high premium by PMPA but don’t forget that they failed in a similar fashion to Quinn for undercutting the market and mismanaging reserves, together with Irish Insurance Corporation we have being paying levies for insurance companies failures for many years now. Perhaps it demonstrates that the insurance sector needs deeper and closer regulation in the future!

He was found guilty, now he’s trying to weasel out of it.

No, Sean Quinn has not been able to get his case against Anglo to court yet. He should be able to bring this case, and then we can all make an informed decision on this Quinn/Anglo debacle.

Well said Cara,
Fair trial is what’s needed. People are very quick to judge when they look from one perspective alone

Y.F no offence ate, but it’s not like you’re being objective yourself.
My point of view is very simple; Quinn gambled and lost. Then he was sought with his hand in the cookie jar and now he’s convicted of contempt. Them man should’ve been in jail as any other person in this state would be in that situation.
His case against Anglo will not redeem him from the contempt charges.

Mark, when Quinns win their case against Anglo, it will prove that the contempt and all the other cases which are only sideshows to bleed the family dry, SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO PROCEED PRIOR TO THE LEGITIMACY OF THE ALLEGED DEBT OF 2.3BILLION.

I think they are like football hooligans wild deluded and incapable of a rational thought they believe any bs they read and are too thick and angry to realize they are being kept busy with a scape goat while house being robbed.

One closer to the ground than many of the vultures who are feeding of his former profitable companies, I suspect.

Quinn Insurance’s apparent profitability was a sad illusion…

Well said Gabriel Donohoe. It will be interesting to see if there are any intelligent replies to your comment.

I see no difference between the lies of our government, our banks or Quinn: They all try to point and blame the other.
But braking the law, as Quinn did as he’s convicted for it, is simply a no go! One law rules all!

i believe the independent regulator and the courts, please extract your head from that pile of sand. quinn gambled and lost, time to pay the piper

It’s takes longer to build a case of the magnitude that this one has against someone when investigators are led merry dances by the accused, given little or no help, or misleading help if at all. If Quinn felt he had a strong case, which he could defend and present, I’m sure he’d be well able to co-operate with authorities to get to trial in double quick time. Unfortunately he’s not, and this is also costing the Irish taxpayer.

Mark, the Quinn family are trying to get their case against Anglo heard but are you not aware that Anglo/Gov are trying every dirty trick in the book to prevent it running?

@Rusty9: it’s all a big conspiracy then? Thats such a nonsense.
Anglo doesn’t have power, the government doesn’t control all media and all those websites that publish news…

But youre ignoring the truth Rusty. Yes Quinn is probably getting the brunt of the examination right now, but that doesnt negate the fact that what he did was wrong, wrong, wrong. He flauted laws, gambled other peoples money, ran his business ilegally, tried to buy a bank using a covert scheme. What of all that should he be allowed get away with. Yes, Seanie Fitz, Neary, Drumm, the politicans, everyone who has their fingerprints on the collapse of the state, the economy and Irish Life as we knew it should all be dragged before the courts and have their day, and in the case of quite a few of them there are files being prepared by the fraud units of the Gardai, but thats a different story entirely. The truth is, Quinn was found to be doing things wrong, scuttled away assets that he used to back loans he took, so they could get out of the reach of the Irish people, is refusing to co-operate with Court sanctions and orders, while a member of his family throws two fingers up at our laws by hiding across a border line. Dont forget Quinn went to Belfast to get himself declared bankrupt to protect his assets by using the laws of another nation. Thankfully that scheme didnt work either. Some regard for Irish law and its people who ultimately are owed his assets, and will bail out his failed insurance venture. Thats the truth|

Yes the truth sometimes does hurt Rusty – time you faced up to it…

You’re a nice guy Kerryblue…..all that hate must be a heavy old burden on you

Kerryblue there was absolutely no need for a comment like that.

Yep, you fit right in there with the anti Quinn brigade. I would expect nothing more!

Kerry that was a stupid comment to make.

At last, it appears that Michael Noonan has finally realized that he was misled. This story is just getting interesting and the truth is going to emerge. Where will all those who facilitated the unnecessary squandering of enormous sums of taxpayers money, run for cover.

Its time for Dukes and Aynsley and Elderfield to come clean before they are flushed out one way or another.

You fail to understand one lesson:

We should NEVER have guaranteed Anglo Irish Bank.

We can still let it collapse and save €30 billion. But FG want to continue FF’s corporate socialism.

Misled by banks…misled by insurance companies…misled by civil servants and the government blames the actuaries and acessors, Quinn blames the government and the whole circus keeps going around. One thing is, of course, certain…the Irish people are the ones on whom the brown stuff will fall on. What a f**king country!

Look well respect the quinns when the quinns respect the law of this land, like every other citizen

blame quinns ponzi scheme. He’s a disgrace.

Laws Gerry??

In this Banana Republic??

Sean.
You should have met politicians in pubs and given them backhanders and maybe ghost write a book about yourself proclaiming how you ”started from nothing” like our D4, privately schooled, tax fugitive billionaires.
Or
Even bought a few pints for Bertie and Cowen in the Galway tent.
You would have had an easy ride from our fine leaders if you followed these simple rules in Irish business.

And as for the media, you should have bought one of our ”fine” media establishments and got them to write nice things about you, just like the ”squeaky clean” guys do.

Yeh that’s why some of them abscond to the north to avoid the law.

I stand behind you Tim Jackson.
Sean Quinn might just be the victim of a financial witch hunt.
It seems more than strange that the spotlight is firmly on Quinn and nobody else.

Maybe he’s in the spotlight as he’s costing the tax payer 1.6 billion!

Harry – are you for a second here about to tell us that SQ never gave any money to politicians?? are you for real?? are you the only one who hasnt heard the story about Brian Cowen getting a call from him prior to the Insurance company being taken over?

At least he admitted ‘how naive we were’.

@Rob – When did Sean Quinn call Brian Cowen again? Source? We know about Brian Cowen ringing Sean Quinn as SQ announced it. And clearly the minister of finance ringing at a time of a multi-billion crisis involving a state bank could only have been to ask for a backhander. Ridiculous.
Had he paid the politicians off, there might have been even 1 political decision made that was in his favor.
It was his downfall ultimately that he didn’t have those friends in high places you suggest he has – to accuse him of political corruption on top of the valid complaints against him is an indication of the witch hunt that’s in progress.