You do seem to have a few issues Ed. I’m aware of much bad in myself and the church, but I believe it is far outweighed by the good. Your jibe, pedophile priests, is an insult to the 98% of great and even holy men who serve and served in the priestly calling. I don’t know enough about the magdalene situation to comment, but I know much harm was done. Today the churches safeguards are far in advance of anything implemented in secular society of the state institutions. But I suppose when you are against something it is easy to pick up a stone and cast it!

Scully Pj
Google ‘ratlines’ get an idea of how the Vatican conspired in the concealment and transport ion of Nazi War criminals like Klaus Barbie, Adolf Eichmann, Josef Mengele to Latin America to be supported there by the Catholic influenced political and state institutions of Paraguay, Brazil, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay. This of course was during the pontificate of Pope Pius the 12th ( aka The Nazi Pope) who is now under consideration for sainthood (!) much to the outrage of Jewish leaders around the world.
of course we wouldn’t really want to delve too much further back into history to find examples of similar actions by the Roman Church and I wont even dare suggest that you google ‘The Whore of Babylon’ as the comments above will appear like drops from a rose petal compared to the suggestions that are entertained for the historical origins of the Papacy.
I prefer to just take the history of your church from the Roman conversion to Christianity of the Emperor Constantine at The Battle of the Milvian Bridge rather than relate back to the possible effects of hallucinogenic fungi (as refered to by Shanti above) in the origins of Christianity itself to form my views.
And then, of course, if you want to bring the whole sorry mess up to modern day Ireland we have the Magdalene Laundrys, clerical child sex abuse – a little bit of historical delving will throw up some interesting traditions in that regard also; and, course, we have a tradition of adolescent male mutilation of the ‘Castrati’ to add another rather tuneful diversion to the unedifying details.
It’s all there Pj -most as a matter of historical record – but then, I’m not a believer and really if I was I would seek to find out more.

Well John, you certainly got much of the vile all together in the one place. I am not an expert in apologetics, but the church has had anti propaganda since 0000. The fact that some still like to believe is “if the cap fits, wear it”.
I’ll just address one issue as I have a life, Pious XI after WW2 was declared Righteous by Gilda Maher, also by the chief Rabbi of Rome. Strange don’t you think? It is only recently following initially a play written behind the iron curtain that the let’s hate the pope (Pious) got legs.
My advice is don’t believe everything you read!

Iron Curtain? Recently? The Cold War ended in 1989!

The Chief Rabbi of Rome Riccardo Di Segni has attacked an Italian TV series on Pope Pius XII’s efforts to help the Jewish people during World War II as ‘junk’. This is taken from a pro Catholic website called ‘Protect the Pope’: http://protectthepope.com/?p=1794
It is accepted that Golda Meir praised Pius12th upon his death in 1958.
It is also accepted that he assisted in the transportation of 3000 Jews to Brazil in 1939 on condition that they were baptised into Catholicism. Their visas were later revoked however as it is suspected they resumed their Jewish practices after arrival.

Agreed. We have already made the (correct) decision. Now, what’s next on the agenda?

This is a non issue. The church just want power and they’re just flexing their aging muscles.

because Martin is a moron

Debating ? well there are about a billion catholics and in an awful lot of the world the local priests hold more influence than the corrupt politicians ,so having a direct dialogue with those that set the policy for said priests would seem to be a good idea maybe ? If you look at were we have embassies I’m sure there’s a lot that don’t make business sense, but the vatican probably does

Opus Dei !!!

Hit the Nail on the head there Alan.

Sell it is worth over 20 million

the embassy is not being sold, I believe the plan is that the ambassador to Italy will be moving into the building the Vatican mission was housed in, as the building being used currently by the ambassador to Italy is a rented building.

it would be a Romanian or Russian embassy :)

True, I cant see how anyone can view this as a dig to the church. It makes sense that we dont need an embassy there…especially when there is a perfectly good one down the road in rome?

Looks like Labour won.

the Vatican will not accept an ambassador to Italy as an ambassador to the holy see unfortunately.

An ambassador has special permissions under international law you can’t send the ambassador to France to Madrid he is just an ordinary Irish citizen there.

brilliant :)

Because mob rule is always the same as reality right Diego? I bet the North Koreans are saying the same thing about anyone who would dare speak about their saviour or the Chinese communist party supporters at their peak or at the worship of the Ayatollah in Iran or the mob support for the murdering of blasphemers in Pakistan. There common mantra who do those pesky liberals think they are just a handful of them there are millions of us so we don’t need any evidence. Mind control is a scary thing.

Easy there chap. I just said it would be interesting to see the turn out. No need to go off on one.

@Cyril wtf are you on about

no the ambassador to Italy is just an ordinary joe who works for the Dep Foreign affairs once he enters the Vatican

Cut us off from what information? Thankfully the world has moved on from the 1940’s P.J.
You’re entitled to love the Vatican and all she represents as much as you want, however many don’t share that love and therefore you don’t have a right to expect an embassy there representing all the people of Ireland.

PJ the vatican was also instrumental in helping Nazi war Criminals escape justice at the end of the war and there is still lots of Nazi Gold in the Vatican vaults. The Vatican as always play on both sides of the coin.

They have nothing to offer diplomatically either by way of intelligence or counsel and “she” is the most backwards grouping of male chauvanists on the planet… She indeed…

It is true that we refer to the church and the Vatican as “She”, based on the title “Mother Church”
As for the stashed gold, you must be one for a good conspiracy theory.
The catholic church is amongst the last moral voices crying out to the world on behalf of the unborn, the old, the disabled and the poor. It is only the immoral who would wish not to communicate with her. And unfortunately she has had too many behave immorally even within her own ranks. But wasn’t that always the way, Judas etc.

Ironically that’s the only “she” you get with the Vatican. You missed on women, children and homosexuals with your moral voice there.

I don’t think so, women children and homosexuals are certainly among the young the old and the poor. The church takes care of the largest number of HIV patients in the world. She also defends the unborn, and abortion is very female biased. Her greatest saint is Mary.

Sorry PJ it is not a conspiracy theory but fact. Also research into the Croatian Holocaust and the active role that the vatican played in this. I suppose the raping and torture of children globally by the Roman Catholic clergy is another conspiracy theory.

PJ you are hopelessly out of touch, and totally misinformed, as for calling the church she, I was merely pointing out that it’s a complete misnomer…

Joe I don’t expect to convince you of anything. You should however not forget Galileo, the crusades, women priests and whatever you’re having yourself. There are a few absolute facts among which is that God loves you and I, and that is true whether you or I believe it.

Furthermore you seem to be cynically using Vatican as if it included the “flock” it does not. It is the organizational power structure of the “church” now while the term “church” is sometimes seen to include the “flock” do you see the distinction… Just so you understand how most people use the terms these days

If we were down to semantic differences that would be great. But in that vane, the authority structure is the Pope and Curia. The Vatican is the place or state.
The term “Power” as you use it is negative, but perhaps accurate. The Power “to bind and set loose” from our sins are Christs’ words to the apostles, not that you consider that to be current, modern or relevant. Sic.

PJ,
Women Priests?? Where? Church of Ireland? They don’t answer to the vatican..
You speak very fondly of a state that advocates having sex with kids. And I’m talking about the state itself, not a few priests.. The age of consent in the Vatican is 12 years old.

As for treating women well? Pull the other one. As a woman who went to a catholic school I can tell you I never felt the slightest bit of respect in that religion for my sex.
With regards caring for AIDS victims? They’ve caused plenty by trying to keep condoms away from areas where it is widespread, it’s the very least they could do.
Helping the poor? The potato blight hit Scotland too, it’s just that their church (COE) fed the poor, the Catholic guys over here refused, not to mention the fact that we the tax payer are footing the bill for compensation claims against the church for child abuse (which they tried to cover up).

I don’t believe the Vatican in any way represents the saviour they claim to. They go against Jesus’ teachings daily, just by virtue of their existence.
By all means, follow Jesus, try to live as he did, you’ll find its the exact opposite of what this man dressed up as a sacred mushroom and his cronies are peddling..

Scully Pj
The Vatican is secondary to ‘religion’. It is the last 100 acres of the Roman Empire – the last of The Papal States whittled away by various evolutionary and revolutionary events of history like the Napoleonic Wars. It is firstly the remains of a political and colonial institution incorporating, as a matter of historical convenience, the first schism of the Christian faith. This faith was adopted by the Roman Empire as a tactical manoeuvre, if you wish, to combine the Empire under a monotheist belief rather than the polytheist religion of the earlier Empire. This was at a period when the Roman Empire was disintegrating and the result of this tactic is still in existence today in the Roman Catholic religion and the last remaining political entity of the Roman Empire – the Vatican State.

Sarcasm doesn’t usually require nonsense

Deke ask any six year old or in your case the intelligence of a six year old if sarcasm is nonsense and I think they will agree.