First of all, you don’t really ‘opt in’ to child benefit. When you register the birth of a child, you are asked for bank details for where the child benefit should go. Not whether you want to receive it or not.

Second, you’re not allowing for the possibility that someone who needed the child benefit when the child was born could stop needing it at some point before that child turns 16.

I always thought cash you sent to the revenue was treated as a payment against tax and if you didn’t actually owe any, it would remain as a credit balance and either offset against a future liability or refunded to you. Is this not the case? Not saying you’re wrong, maybe some revenue person or accountant might clarify.

Damocles, The only way you can voluntarily hand extra money to the Revenue is by over overdeclaring your income! Otherwise what Mark is saying is correct. Except of course for the judges whoi have a voluntary arrangement to pay the pension level as it is not deducted from their salary

I’ve emailed them and asked them.

And they’ve responded, really quickly.

You can gift money to the state as and when you wish, it wouldn’t be credited to your tax account.

You could always skip the Revenue and just hand it directly to bond holders, developers, bankers, farmers, and all our other ‘wealth creators’.
I don’t think they would be found wanting for a mechanism to receive it.

And by the way Gavin , the iPhone for me is actually the cheapest way for me to stay connected , for less than 10 euros a week I get all the texts and voice calls I need plus free national calls , unlimited Internet usage and a personal hotspot to connect my laptop and games console plus a free phone , i honestly could not afford any
Other option than an iPhone .

Great idea Poppy…
I agree 100% ;)

Great idea. And not to be spent on booze, cigarettes or holidays either

This is a great idea and anyone who is using child benefit for what its meant for should not object to this and it would support the national economy

You sure about that? Got proof?

Philip is right. The option not to claim has been in place for years. Anyone with a kid in Ireland should know this.

It’s news to me Lauramaeve. I have a four year old. When I registered his birth I was asked where I wanted the money to go, not if I wanted it or not. Never heard anything to the contrary.

Saoli, I can definitely tell you you have the option to not claim but you are as good as encouraged to claim!

They already to give support for creches and childcare, in the form of a yearly payment. only problem with this was that the creches saw this extra income to families and adjusted tier prices accordingly (upward)

@Simon Barnes, no they don’t give a yearly payment. They give a payment for ONE YEAR.

There is a little bit of a a difference…

I don’t know about creches increasing fees for this, which would be a bit cynical. But childcare fees _are_ definitely still going up.

Stop having children. If you have kids then your costs and your child benefit goes up. Stop having them – simple answer.

Um, Simon? That yearly payment was done away with a few years back, replaced by ‘one year free childcare’ (which is actually one year of free PART TIME childcare).

I agree with this Oisin, the burden on working parents for their children is greatest from 0 to 5 when they are in childcare so some creative thinking is needed, if child benefit were to be reduced universally and then tax credits given to parents who have children in recognised childcare would this not make more sense and support working parents.

Well said Dell I had no kids and will I be awarded for not putting extra burden on the country -Education -Health you name it I am paying out hard earned cash to others who can sponge off me ?? No of course I wont!! I say reorganise the whole thing starting with the Constitution first or you will have all the liberals taking supreme court cases on their unenumerated rights to the withdrawal of it

What you’re describing there, Celly, is not a society.

Im sure we all know people who had the “lazy spongers” attitude towards the less well off. That is until they lost their cushy jobs and were damn grateful there was a system in place to help them survive.

If the state considered Children a ‘burden’. It would get fairly lonely around here fairly quickly.

oddly enough Celly – we are the envy of developed countries with our birth rate ensuring that we’ll have tax payers to fund our retirement – countries such as Luxembourg have far more appealing child benefits to encourage people to have kids.
i do think this should be capped though (think it already is after one of these austerity budgets) – to a limit of say 3 kids.
means testing would fix the issue above – but the problem with our public sector is that we would end up spending more means testing the benefit than we would just paying it out to everyone! crazy but true!

Good point @Del why should anybody be forced to contribute to the upbringing of somebody else’s children? We already have Social welfare for people who cannot find employment or are too sick to work and these already include allowances for child dependents.

Additionally our tax system also includes allowances for child dependents to lessen the tax burden on workers with child dependents, why do we even need a separate Child Benefit payment?

So much wrong with that comment Hugh Hicks. so much wrong. you obviously have no concept of living in a society

Ah Celly and Dell, no mortgage interest relief for ye then? No first 80 or 100 paid off any prescriptions you may have now or in the future? Celly with your reasoning of Children been a burden I’d hate to be old and depending on the young people based on your Buisness plan

Fine Gael represent their wealthy cronies. Voting them and Labor into office was a big mistake.

I know a family who put the child benefit into an account for their kids which they’ll receive when they’re 18. They will then have upwards of 20 grand to do with as they wish, it’s an unfair and unnecessary advantage.

Hold on a minute consider what the article actually says…

“Joan Burton is considering a new measure in which wealthy parents would be able to hand back their monthly child benefit payment if they wish.”

The wealthy already have this option simply by not collecting their children’s allowance!

This is another example if one were needed of civil service incompetence.

I think the question is very poorly framed.
Mind you, the proposal itself is thoroughly spineless too.

20 Grand? What are they doing with the rest?

Even at a poxy 3% interest they should end up with around 40 grand.

?60k pa after tax,usc.pension levies,health insurance,household charges doesn’t leave a whole lot to play with after childcare and school costs for two children are taken into account. To paraphrase Pee Flynn, you should try it some time. I’m sure there are some wealthy couples who could live without the allowance but I suggest you aim a little higher than the middle income soft centre that’s been milked dry already.

And how did u arrive at 60 K a year, why not 50 or 40 or 70 ?

The problem is the threshold Chris. If you earn €50k and have three kids with a wife who is not working and an oversized mortgage you might be struggling. It’s easy to say exclude the rich but in truth there are not as many left in Ireland as we would like to believe…

To be fair if you believe someone on 60k a year is in the wealthy bracket you’re well off the ball. as described above with all the extra charges basically anything earned over 35k is taxed at circa 55% so the goverment get more of your hard earned money than you do. hard for them to swallow having benefits retracted.
I’ve said it before it the middle classes and middle earners that are paying most the tax in this country. their not the ones avoiding it. It’s the 200k above earners who have the liquid cash to move it out of the state if they wish. having a population fighting amoung itself about what they earn is insane. Takes focus off the proper decisions this government should be making..

And you are basing your statement on what?

Are you talking gross or net pay?

Do they have to be Catholic or Protestant?

Do you see how ridiculous your statement is?

Rage, rage, rage…please think it, works out better.

In the UK from january 2013 if a household earns £42k a year or more they will not receive childrens allowance. The childrens allowance parents receive in the UK is about half the amount what they receive in Ireland. Ireland is a very generous country, when it comes to allowances and welfare.

One more useless solution by this Shower of reprobates, you couldn’t make this stuff up…!!!

Do they really believe that if people are entitled to something, they will give up that entitlement…These Clowns are playing Fantasy Govt, the only firm decisions they can make is to take money from those who really need it, while dancing around the wealthy elite.

Just goes to prove how much the Govt and the wealthy are all in each others pockets…Another Self serving decision…Do Ministers and TD’s in Govt take this payment, or will they hand it back as well….Doubt it…!!!!

How much disposable income do you think a person has after paying out for everything social welfare gives for free. Ball park €60000 – 42% tax – mortgage payments – cost of traveling to work – refuse collection – insurances re home car and most important of all CHILD CARE =Nothing left. Take child benefit from social welfare recipients

That’s exactly how it works…the poor get a say in nothing and just have to deal with the cuts that are given too them whilst the rich get a choice in everything cos this government is run by money grabbing fools and if your rich your in the circle but if your not your left for the slaughter

Responsible couples should be supported in every way possible and not discriminated against.

GaI truly hope you never have to be on social welfare like the 400,000+ like myself were forced to go on because of the recession, I was lucky enough to get back into education and hope to leave when ive completed it but others cant afford to so don’t judge anyone til ya know there reasons and don’t judge all families receiving welfare as the media do because if you ever find yourself on welfare and if you ever need child benefit for a child you will then see what crap people have to put up with from comments like yours!. If theres people abusing it thats fine but there is plenty poor and rich rich who are equally guilty and should not be allowed receive it!

Gavin,
I hope the day never comes for you when the childrens allowance means the difference between sinking and swimming every month.
Your comment is offensive to anyone who is struggling in this country through no fault of their own. Why not reserve some of your bile for those who use the benefit for a nice holiday every year or those who let it mount up for years earning interest?

Its amazing that its never anyones fault, we all just fell on dole with no savings, huge debts, education or route to survive, its always the Irish way that the other guy ruined my life, now i deserve free money, free healthcare, free pension, free house. The sense of entitlement in this country is amazing, most of the comments saying people are struggling are “sent from my iphone” or from a broadband connection that your childrens allowance pays for. Nobody should be given money on social welfare, food vouchers; and household bills signed off and paid for. As for childrens allowance, none at all or only for 2 children to everybody, nobody should have to pay for someones poor family planning, if you cant afford 2 children without support why have 5??? I’m not rich or poor but i have more appreciation for the rich, they look after themselves and have gotten where they are through hard graft and risk taking, they put their chips on the table and suceeded against the odds in this country, they create employment, not the government and only rich entrepreneurs are going to kickstart this economy regardless of the ammount of “Stimulus” money Enda sends out into the black hole of Ireland

Gavin, I worked for years and was made redundant – I just put myself through college and am desperately searching for a job.

I’ve had less than 3 months of social welfare since finishing college, JSB (based on the PRSI I paid) for the first 2 summers during college.

I have no kids, no car. If I’m honest, I fell very little hope….

If you think you can sit in the middle ground thinking that all people with money worked hard to get there and all those 400,000 on social welfare are being paid to reproduce I have a few words for you that I doubt the journal would allow to remain up.

One of the major problems with this country is that people love to have their rant – but do NOTHING about what bothers them. And in those rants there is the telling sign or people who see very little grey, only black and white. Things SHOULD be this way or things SHOULD be that way…. Why tell the journal? Why not email the relevant minister?

Sick to death of a complete lack of understanding that is absolutely driving me to despair.

P.S. here is the contact: http://www.joanburton.ie/contact-us

@Tom Newell. I hope it’s an English grammar course you’re doing ;-)

Can’t remember when I last heard something so ridiculous! Joan Burton has just proved how incompetent this government really is! If that’s the best suggestion she can come up with, after 20 months in office, then we really are well and truly bolloxed!!!

Gavin,
When you find that utopia where everyone’s rich let us know because you may need a few consumers to populate it and keep it going.
In the meantime I’ll continue to claim my entitlements after paying into social insurance for over 20 years. Entitlements that don’t include free money, free healthcare, free pension, free house.
I won’t be going beyond the two children I have either you’ll be glad to hear. An extra 35 euro a week seems a poor return for a lot of responsibility and hard work.
Have a good one.

Gavin
There’s been scientific studies done as to what makes people rich and successful, contrary to popular belief, it turns out to be luck. They might be born into wealthy families, meet the right people on chance coincidences etc etc. IMO, you seem to have a deep respect for a subjective perception that in the majority of cases doesn’t exist.

@ Declan, yes it must be luck that people dont choose to be employed, they set up businesses and risk everything. Definately luck. Spoken like someone who will never try and then blame there situation on bad luck

Gavin
How did they get the start up capital?
Who paid for their education? Etc.

You seem to be suggesting its a level playing field, that we are all starting with equal opportunities and those who become rich are somehow superior to those that do not. I’m simply referring to a scientific study that found that those who are wealthy in most cases are wealthy because of luck, particularly the luck of being born into the right family.
And personally, I’m quite happy with “my situation”.

Gavin – by your logic I can only assume that you are the most accomplished person in Ireland in your field.

I mean, if people who are on the dole and jobless just need to try in order to become “successful” people then people like yourself who must already have a degree of success must only be stopped by not trying even harder.

Well done – and thank you for the fact that your taxes prevent me from being homeless. Oh, and the medical card too. I hope I won’t be a burden on you for too much longer – although of course I mustn’t be seeing as you try so hard.

Gavin some people who worked hard and took risks to create a better life for themselves ended up falling on hard times and the dole queue too ye know!! I think your comments are disgraceful, condescending and pompous, you have zero regard for genuine people struggling, you are very rude, ignorant and I find your comments vile and offensive…. Who do you think you are?

You were not asked should they receive it or not. You were simply asked should there be an official mechanism for people to refuse the child benefit. Voting No means you voted for everyone to continue to get it.

Introducing means testing for the child benefit, whilst obviously a good idea, is a whole other kettle of fish.

The filthy rich?

Any measures targeted at the filty rich would have a negligible impact because there just arent enough of them.
To have any appreciable impact, the line needs to be moved considereably down as far as the ‘moderately well off’.

That’s the problem though gagsy, who’s definition do we go by, where is the line to being moderately well off? I doubt there’s too many of them either anymore. the more we take off people the less everyone will have to give so they will have to drop the scale on what we consider ‘moderately well off’ . Does a family earning a gross of 100k a year with two kids deserve less support than a family on social welfare with 6kids? where do we draw the line?

So many questions Bilbo, so many questions.

I’ve no answers though. I was really just challenging the simplistic analysis that austerity can be solved by ‘making the rich pay more’, or in this post, the “filthy rich”. There just aren’t enough of them unless you really broaden the definition and as you say, defining wealth appropriately is a knotty problem in itself.

Means testing is another level of bureaucracy that will probably cost more to implement. Better to tax it or have an “opt out” or receiving it.

The means test needs radial reform, you could be means tested today and in 8 months your circumstances could have changed, it not that easy to change things
To give an example (two families) one family in council house and the other have a morgue etc why should both get the same child allowance? one get housed by the state ( rent @ a min) the other paying through the nose.
Who can tell who needs it more?
Child allowance was introduce it was suppose to help raise the children but do we really know what it’s been spent on?
the present cash system is not working ,Maybe it be better to have a voucher system or card system that it can be only spend on certain things? like clothes,school trips etc

Sherbet, I think obvious first step there is to get the second family out of the morgue – even in these straitened times, thats no way to live.

If you get a social welfare payment ie One parent, it is taken off your tax credits.

Opps tks gagsy that was a typo

no its not sophia, its extra or on top of what you get every month

That’s just another example of where thejournal.ie purposefully polarises a poll by choosing answers which prompt debate.

Nope.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/social_welfare_payments_to_families_and_children/child_benefit.html

“If your baby is born in Ireland, when you register the birth of your baby the Department of Social Protection will begin a Child Benefit claim for your child. ”

I’m not sure that ‘telling them to remove it’ actually does anything. In fact, the point of the article is ‘should we set up a system where people can apply to have their child benefit stopped’, no?

Yes, but if you first applied up to eighteen years ago, (i.e. when the child was first born) your circumstances could have improved significantly since then – through job promotions etc.

Still can’t see very many people handing it back though.

@Saoili you should read that advice there a bit more. The department of social will begin the application for you. You are still required to give them information to complete the application. If you don’t give them the information you wont be able to claim for it.

Also Quote “Changes in circumstances
You must notify the Department of Social Protection (DSP) of any changes in circumstances which may affect your Child Benefit claim. Changes which may affect your claim include:

Change of address
Child is no longer with you or in your care
Change of Post Office or other financial institution
Child aged 16 or 17 leaves full-time education
You or your child(ren) leave the State
You or your spouse, civil partner or cohabitant start work in another country
You can use Form CB56 (pdf) to notify the DSP of any changes to your circumstances.”

See I can copy and paste too.

Based on this you could if you really wanted to hand back the money or stop calming for it. Fill in that form If they don’t have the correct bank / post office details then the money wont get paid out. Simples. But all this is irrelevant because who in their right mind is going to turn down money from the government when they pay so much into it in different tax’s. Their entitled to is so why shouldn’t they claim it.

From personal experience, it is very very difficult to get them to accept that you no longer need it – for example because you’re moving out of the country. Lots of paperwork. It almost seems like this is a racket to keep some “public servants” in employment.

Always the SAME argument…. CB and booze!!!! People on Welfare have no right to nothing or booze? The wealthy ones do the same but just dont need the CB for it!! Man this idea that if you are on Welfare you are destined to live a miserable life!!! They do it anyway as they struggle EVERY DAY so let them the booze at least…all this judging…..

Means testing would eliminate assumption..
Maybe we should be thinking of the struggling parents who don’t blow the money on booze and smokes but go without basics in order to feed and cloth their kids..
Parents who are in this position are the one’s that know and should be consulted.. ;)

@Christine “astrospirit” Klein…you are an idiot!

Away back to your tee pee and sprinkle some patchouli oil on yer comrades.

Go sell crazy somewhere else…

Christine: You seem to be unfamiliar with the concept of luxury vs necessity.

Tom… what are you talking about “paycuts” for? This is about social payments from the government… it is not the same as a “paycut”.

Those of you who are saying that the children of wealthy parents should not receive a benefit do not seem to realise what the benefit is meant for. It is for the CHILD not the parent, and in theory it should be used exclusively for that. I personally am very much in favour of reform in this area but by discriminating against some children.

I would actually like child benefits to be given in a different manner, vouchers for clothing, books, food etc… and possibly a percentage diverted to a child-fund which is released to them at the age of 21. Regardless of the details it requires more thought than “burn the wealthy”.

As a side note, in this country poverty is not inherited. We have free education, grants and other social benefits to help children born without privilages to raise themselves up.

I think you need to take a look at the concept of social reproduction Dennis….

Hmmmm Dennis “Free Education” now there’s a novel Idea. Not sure you’ll find anyone to agree with you on that. Sending my kids to primary school is costing a small fortune. There is hardly a week goes by when I’m not costed for some amount of money or have to buy certain things from the school (who have you over a barrel) just so my kids fit in.

“Free education” LOL!

I believe that Joe Soap will also be allowed to volunteer up the child benefit under this scheme. It’s very democratic and open to all comers.

yup agreed. And if you want to stop calming it, there is also a form you can fill in to update details.

is her name poppy?

Lol, nope. But Poppy sounds familiar.

Ok Mick if we are going to make it personal ? Mmmmmhhh it’s the type of self pitying attitude I’d expect from someone who lists “beer” as their interest.

What’s wrong with beer?

@ Trisha, they did well for themselves, set up accounts for their children, pay more tax, prsi, usc and bik than any of the welfare scroungers who want the state to pay for their kid to name but a few. Thtats whats fair about it.

They fact that they worked hard and made a success of their lives isn’t what in question, Gavin. What is in question is why should they get the same amount as someone who really needs the money(and no, wasting it on smokes and booze doesn’t count).

Who decides who “really needs it”. At the end of the day, it’s an expensive system of stealing from the pocket of one person to give to another.

Why should people who pay tax not not be entitled to benefit from the government?

It is impossible to work out what the ceiling should be for child benefit and I believe that the last thing we need is any further measures which will make it not worthwhile for people to work.

I’m sure poor people can pay back money they don’t want too. Not entirely sure why they would.

Well let me see Darragh, now this is just a shot in the dark, but maybe wealthy people get this option because they are errr…. wealthy (ie have lots and lots of money) and can afford to hand it back, although why they would beggers me.

Hi Oisin ;)
Child benefit is for the child but should only be for the child who needs it..
Hiding behind the cause that all children deserve it is discusting and selfish.
To give wealthy kids a financial benefit from the taxpayer while other less fortunate kids are in need of basics such as clothing/food of a roof over their heads is a disgrace!
Shame on anyone who continues to support this system of unfairness.

The kids arent wealthy their parents are. If the rich should pay more in taxes it should be done by taxing them more, on their high incomes, property, capital gains and inheritance and by not subsidising private education and health care.

So you believe that because you work hard Sharon that cb is a savings account you can pass on to your children in a lump sum so they can piss it away on a holiday,car etc,you’ve missed the point completely

I don’t think the lack of child benefit would make a big difference in the number of Irish births.

My partner and I both earn a combined 60k a year I was 16 doing my leaving cert, worked through it to save for college as my parents didn’t have cash set aside for my future so I worked for it myself at 16/17 never not worked now at 24 after a couple of years working in a crappy job I now earn over 30k alone I’ve just began my career I worked hard very hard and don’t want my daughter who is 15 mths (yeah 22 and pregnant I was) to struggle through the way I did so her Cb is put into a fund for her. To travel when I never got the chance, to buy a car or have no student loans. I worked hard so she won’t have to. And anyone else could have done the same what’s the difference between me and them? I was 16 and done it all. I don’t get when people say they didn’t get a chance from who were you expecting one from? You are the master of your life no one else.

Fair play to you Sharon…. I admire your attitude ;-)

Try sending 3 kids to College, pay a mortgage & car on €60k. Yeah 60k is great if you expect your kids not to go to 3rd level.

That’s far too generalist a statement. I know people on 60k plus that are really struggling.

Take someone that’s self-employed and earning €62k. They could simply reduce their wages to €59,999. Means testing is far too complex for our simple minded Government to even attempt to tackle. It’s a political hot potato that the Government will not engage with.

Poppy – you had the 3 kids…..

I agree though, 60K is not a big limit at all.

If your on less than 30,000 a year it’s most likely you’ll get a grant of some sort. If your on 60,000 a year (which incidentally I’m not….not even near it) it’s most likely you’ve studied & worked hard to get there. If you drive the SUV you mention your probably screwed with annual motor tax of €1200 !!
I can’t understand why people in lower paid jobs begrudge those who’ve studied & worked for a high paying job. I didn’t go to university & earn accordingly. I don’t begrudge friends who worked they’re asses off all their life through school & college to secure a high paying job.

“I can’t understand why people in lower paid jobs begrudge those who’ve studied & worked for a high paying job.” If you had the opportunity to do that and chose not to, that’s one thing. But the idea that everyone in this country has the opportunity to work hard and end up in a high paying job is just a fallacy.

Poppy,my husband works. As it is, we’re barely getting by on his wage. Yes, we chose to have our four kids, but while we want the best for them, we also have bills that need to be paid. Yes we have a car……but not for much longer. We can’t afford the upkeep, so we have to get rid of it. I don’t begrudge anyone who has studied and worked hard to get where they are anything, but why should they also be subsidised by the taxpayer when they blatantly do not need the Children’s Allowance?

“the idea that everyone in this country has the opportunity to work hard and end up in a high paying job is just a fallacy.”

Everyone has the opportunity to work hard. Everyone has the opportunity to not blow their wages on frivolity. You don’t need to be earning 500 quid a day to live comfortably, far from it. If people had been careful during the good times the hard times would be less hard now.

Mick and Trish: why should other people pay for the lifestyle that you believe you should be entitled to?

We all had the same opportunities.

Oh how I hate the poor me attitude…..you make assumptions about me…..I’m not near earning 30k a year & to me alcohol is a luxury that comes after paying for kids, food, household bills etc…
Quit the victim & automatic entitlement attitude. If you’ve money left over to spend on beer then you must fall into the “don’t need child benefit” category.