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Dublin: 13 °C Wednesday 22 May, 2013

How do workers decide whether Croke Park II is approved?

The working conditions of 292,000 public workers could changed by the new proposals. So what happens now?

Union representatives meet with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform last month, at the beginning of the talks on Croke Park II.
Union representatives meet with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform last month, at the beginning of the talks on Croke Park II.
Image: Sam Boal/Photocall Ireland

UNION LEADERS and government representatives yesterday agreed on the terms of a possible new national pay deal – including measures extending the working week and cutting down on overtime premiums for most workers.

The proposals being put forward by the Labour Relations Commission also involve pay cuts for those earning above €65,000 a year, and the abolition of particular allowances given to workers in the prison, justice and education sectors.

Already individual unions have begun debating the measures, with national executives deciding whether they will recommend a Yes or No vote to their members.

But how does the whole process work – and how exactly do the country’s 292,000 public servants decide whether to accept extended working hours if it means no mandatory redundancies for another three years?

Here’s how it works.

Executive decision

The Irish Congress of Trade Unions is the vehicle through which the measure is ultimately rejected or accepted. ICTU, as the representative body for each of the country’s trade unions, is the body approached when the government decides it wants to begin talks.

ICTU then gets representatives from each of its own member unions – excluding those who have only private sector membership, because they are not party to any agreement – to take part in talks with the government representatives.

(This has other implications too: because Gardaí are formally forbidden from joining trade unions, and only form ‘associations’, those bodies are not permitted to join ICTU – something Gardaí are challenging at a European level.

This ultimately means that Gardaí cannot take part in the talks – though Garda associations attend in a separate room and are briefed on the progress in the talks in the main room.)

The talks are mediated by the Labour Relations Commission, which accepts the arguments on either side and tries to come up with a compromise text. When that is done – as was achieved earlier this week – the document is then sent back to each ICTU member union for its consideration.

There, it is discussed by each union’s Executive – which does not simply make the union’s decision all by itself, but instead makes a recommendation to its members on whether they should accept or reject it.

The executive can also defer a recommendation until they get further information from the Labour Relations Commission – as happened earlier this week when the INTO delayed a decision on whether to recommend that primary teachers approve it.

15 (or more) separate referendums

Ultimately, however, it’s the ordinary workers who are the ones affected by a deal – so it’s those workers who must be given a say.

This means that each of the ICTU member unions, whose members are affected by the result, hold a referendum of their members to decide where they stand.

This can take some time to arrange – with some scattered professions like teachers, who work in thousands of venues around the country, requiring slightly more logistical work to ballot.

While some unions like prison officers will be able to ballot at their workplaces, others like teachers have to conduct their vote via post – which can take several weeks to undertake, return, count and certify.

Workers are under no obligation to follow the instruction or recommendation of their union’s leaders – though in practice many do, as workers feel that their union’s leaders are probably more familiar with the deal and the ultimate impact it will have.

Adding it all up

While each union therefore adopts its own stance on the deal, ultimately the stance of individual unions does not matter – because the national result is determined not by the stance of unions, but by the stance of members.

ICTU’s public services committee, which helps to arrange the talks, has said the ratification process for Croke Park II will be the same as the one adopted by Croke Park I – where the final outcome is based on ‘one worker, one vote’ and not simply one union, one vote.

This means that the members of smaller unions, who may only have about 5,000 members, could vote overwhelmingly to reject the deal – only to have its stance completely diluted by a strong approval among other unions.

Therefore the deal could be easily rejected by a half-dozen unions with smaller membership, but end up being approved thanks to a broader base of support from larger unions like SIPTU or Impact.

What about the unions who walked out?

Liam Doran of the INMO outside Lansdowne House where the talks were held. The INMO was the largest union to leave the talks, with 40,000 members. (Sam Boal/Photocall Ireland)

Many will wonder what happens to the unions who walked out of the talks – and whether they can be bound by a document they didn’t originally agree to.

The answer is that their participation (or lack of it) in the talks has no bearing on this process. Unions like the INMO, who left the talks before a deal was reached, still have the chance to vote on whether the final document should be approved or not.

The sole effect of those unions deciding not to take part in the talks is that they give up any opportunity to have input into what the final LRC proposals should contain.

Of course, the flip-side to this argument is that those unions believed their input would be ignored, so it simply saves them the hassle of making redundant suggestions.

It’s entirely up to the members of those unions to decide what they want to do. Situations could yet arise where a union whose representatives walked out of the talks could still choose to approve the agreement.

And what about the unions who say no?

As mentioned earlier, the final measure of whether this ballot is approved is taken on a ‘one worker, one vote’ basis – so a wide margin of approval in a big union could overpower a rejection by a series of smaller ones.

Think of it as being like one of the constitutional referendums we’ve had in Ireland in the last few years. It doesn’t matter if people in the constituency of Donegal North-East voted No in the referendum on children’s rights – their No vote is overpowered by the approval of voters elsewhere.

Once the outcome is approved on a national basis, it then applies to all who are affected by it. A constitutional amendment applies across the country, and not just to the people whose constituencies decided to vote for it.

A similar setup applies in this case – union members can decide to vote no, but the final decision rests with the majority of public workers who either say Yes or No.

This isn’t without precedent: in 2010 members of a few unions – including the TUI and the ASTI – voted against Croke Park I by a significant margin.

However, both unions ultimately became parties to the agreement – because the majority of public workers affiliated to ICTU voted to approve the deal, irrespective of which trade unions they were part of.

Read: Impact to meet as more unions oppose Croke Park II

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Comments (46 Comments)

  • smudge 02/03/13 #

    Amazing having a person from Siptu or impact deciding what’s best for the policing of Ireland, coming into the side room and telling the Gardai this is what your getting, take it and get lost, no chance of a different plan, oh they did get five new mobile Garda stations, that will really cut down crime were they lost there Garda stations.

    Do they expect these Garda vans to stay all day and patrol the area around where a Garda station is closed down. The thing is the Garda fleet is nearly gone with cars breaking down or taken off the road, these vans will be used to do calls in the major towns. Smart policing eh and I’m a member of the public looking in, I’d hate to be a Garda looking out

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  • Jim you haven’t the facts. You haven’t a clue what cuts we have endured. You assume we have a cushy number and are all grossly over paid! While you were probably in your bed I was on the road at 05:30 to start work 60 miles away to work 12hrs to get home at 9:30 if I’m lucky, sometimes not getting home until midnight. I have a mortgage kids and bills! You make me sound like I’m a freeloader! I’ve trained long and hard to get my qualifications in UCD and continue to train out of my own pocket. I’m lucky to have €20 to spend on my self at the end of the week. Since this crisis has started I’m down €750 a month.. and now I face more cuts and I can assure you there is no more… So please stop falling for the governments divide and conquer tactics! I do appreciate I have a job but nobody will work for nothing! I will have no options but to walk out and go to a country where I be paid for what I do. I already have been looking!

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  • Nurse, Garda, care assistant etc on 40 thousand a year including premium pay takes a bigger cut than weekday worker on the same wage. Simple as that, those workers would be better off if there was an equal cut across the board to basic rates. That’s how bad this deal is, there is no fairness here. Ictu should be ashamed of themselves selling workers down the swanny in this way. Time for a big change to IR mechanisms in this state. The big ictu boys are very fond of a visit to government buildings, love that wonderful feeling of importance. What a crowd of arrogant clowns. The cabinet will be laughing them out the door.

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  • Ictu is controlled by siptu and impact due to their numbers and the leadership of both these unions are in the governments pockets so there is no fair deal for smaller unions

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  • I could be wrong but my view would be different unions represent different professions, therefore should be entitled to be able to reject a “cuts package” (not deal) as it affects them differently.
    It is not like a national referendum as stated, because that would imply that it affects people equally. It is more like Germany or Frances population voting with us, overruling due to size.. False democracy.

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    • Unfortunately that’s exactly what’s happened, the standard 9-5 office worker due to being in the majority were left almost untouched while the 24/7 And teachers were hit.

      The government wanted to make cuts so they did the maths and saw that this was the only way by agreement.

      Hopefully the members of impact and siptu see this for what it is and reject it.

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    • Teachers have not really been hit. This deal is actually good for younger teachers and good for schools. Why we were being paid for supervision and substitution I don’t know. Surely it should be part of our contractual duties and now hopefully it will be. I am “happy” to give up the allowance for this The deal also allows for an improvement for new entrants salaries and just a delay on low and mid earners increments. For once it’s a deal that looks out for the younger people. The only teachers that get cuts are those earning over 65k and they are guaranteed not to go below this level yet still they complain. It is embarrassing hearing some of the comments made by senior teachers and the likes of the TUI. At least some of the other unions like those for nurses and the GRA have genuine complaints as they are 24/7 and truly frontline. And this post is from a teacher.

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    • Have you read the details???!? You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about! Do you honestly think that working an extra 21/2 hrs per week and a paycut of at least 1800 on top of previous pay cuts is a good deal? And don’t even get me started on young teachers! They will lose more of their part time hours next year because so much of the s&s will cover what these teachers now get paid for! This deal MUST be rejected!

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  • So basically the people on the ground who have to cope-again- with the counter-productive, mostly ill thought out measures proposed by this outrageous deal really have no say because the union chiefs-hang on, how much are they losing in croke park 2 again?- have looked after themselves in the first instance. I can’t see how any member of these unions represented their members well in these talks. The waste in our public service has not been addressed again and these cuts are another quick fix measure to avoid having to actually make some hard decisions. Instead the well paid union officials and well paid government representatives played God again and decided yet again that it is better to punish all the front line workers! When will people finally open their eyes and ears and stop dissing each other and start taking pride in themselves and their work and stand up for themselves?

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  • Thanks- this article answered lots of my questions.

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    • Trying to the maths on this, I work 24/7 365 a yr and I’ll be down 3000k pa + something smells rotten here.

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    • B 02/03/13 #

      So Gardai who have no right of representation (real representation) at the talks, are not involved in the negotiating process and are only briefed on what the others have agreed are then bound by an agreement just because others vote in favour.

      Democracy? No!.

      Reply
  • I’m amazed each union would allow a situation where other unions representing different people with different objectives can be overruled, they may as well all be in the biggest union, as equality is one of the 10 commandments!
    That way the union would have to take their position into consideration.

    We would not allow this to happen on a international level so why this, it is a dangerous position where the smaller groups can be bullied by buying the votes of larger groups, which is what unionism is supposed to be about defending…
    Eventually those bigger groups will be divided and conquered.

    No long term thought process visible here to me. The same unions that preach strength through unity, are now sniping at other unions which is very sad to see, I’m disappointed with Patricia king and impact for that. All they had to say was they respected the Gra’s position and left it at that. It certainly doesn’t help the view that they are labour’s lackeys.

    All in all it couldn’t be a worse year for the 100 year anniversary for the 1913 lock out.

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  • God help the ordinary workers when Jack O Connor tells Siptu to back whatever there told.

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  • Since the inception of these partnership agreements some of the smaller unions have rejected them, to their own members dismay, they are always voted in by the lager ones.
    The government have done a side deal with prison officers and firemen to destabilize the 24/7 alliance, it really shows how afraid of the alliance they are, perhaps the alliance should be formalized to protect all its members, as a prison officer I know that they will come after us in a year or 2 and we will have no support from other 24/7 workers if we don’t stand with them now, unity is our strength and a lot of my colleagues feel the same

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  • Then walking out really was futile, except for the guards who weren’t really part of it anyway

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  • Tired of unions

    The boys at top are paid obscene amounts

    They are the best sales people I know

    Reply
  • Maria 02/03/13 #

    Labour have lost the plot. They are attacking their core support, public sector workers. Imagine if the proposals are voted down and legislation imposes harsher conditions? Labour would be finished. The reason these proposals are a year early is because they think we will forget by the next election. 292,000 voters plus their families. Game over Labour.

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  • Sadly this is nothing more than a race to the bottom for all workers in the long term aided and supported by the two biggest unions in the country whose leaders are openly putting down the other union leaders who actually consulted their members prior to these talks and were actually reflecting their members wishes interestingly with all the carrots being thrown in to divide and conquer the workers the billion so called savings has been reduced to half a billion
    Look out worker’s they will be back before long looking for more

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  • Gavan, your “explainers” are always top class. Well done.

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  • Jim jameson. The social welfare bill is also a massive burden on the state should that be cut also. I hope not.

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  • …..and a nation holds its breath!

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  • Leaving the talks is unacceptable . We each pay our unions between twenty and thirty euro a month to represent us ( do the math on what the unions take in ). Leaving talks and walking out looks dramatic for tv shots but they are paid to negotiate not walk .

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  • It goes to show how badly members were let down by those unions who walked. Walking out achieved nothing as they will still be bound by a yes vote. Staying in they could have secured some concessions for members. Union leaders took the easy option to preserve their own necks but shouting “we didn’t sign up to this” from the rooftops won’t improve things for members. Its amazing how members continue to defend the decision made to walk. They should be outraged…

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  • P J Stone comes across as an angry and frustrated man. I’ve met the type, who thinks he should have been promoted, but everyone else can see why he was’nt.

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  • ta se ag teach

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  • Why not do benchmarking again against the private sector. This would give a 30% to 40% drop. This is what I suffered!

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    • Power, plenty in the private sector had no cuts , and are looking at rises this year, good luck to them
      You say you have, sorry to hear that
      Now grow a pair , and stop attacking it comes across as bitter

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    • These reforms are mild compared to what the private sector has had to endure! The public sector is a massive burden on the state. If you work in a public sector job and are not happy with the reforms , give up your safe pensionable job and join us in the private sector. However if you decide not too , quit your complaining and swallow the medicine!

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    • Power, get a different job if you feel your being screwed. Why should you take such a huge cut. What did you get paid before the 19% cut? How do you survive?

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    • Sorry, you got a 30-40% pay cut wow that is really bad what do you work at?

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    • Power are you Eddie Hobbs?

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    • Red thumbs… you obviously know you have a handy number where you are so you are not prepared to move!!

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    • Actually most public servants are down at least 25% since 2009. With no opportunity to be rewarded for good performance, or go for promotion, or, generally speaking, to change jobs, as realistically they can only move within their sector.

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    • The public service may be a drain on this country as people in the private sector so aptly put it but what if there was no public service: no police, hospitals,passports , fire ambulance doctors etc what state would the country be in , just a little reminder for all you private sector workers who think that its the public sectors fault this country is in the state its in, remember the big boys who took all they could from the banks and didnt pay it back.
      I will not work for less money with longer hours implemented by a greedy selfcentered goverment so they can look good in Europe. I work long hours in a busy ED with no breaks some days, including sundays nights and bankholidays, while the so called public sector sit at home from 6pm every night having had there multiple breaks during a busy day on the phone,computer, while i have probably been spit at hit and verbally abused. I will vote NO in the hope that all the Pen pushers in the public sector will also vote NO however i dont think that will happen because the cuts only really effect 24/7 365 days a year workers.

      Reply
    • And while some people have dropped hugely or lost their jobs in the private sector, others have done ok. People who joined the public service watched others fa extremely well ink the boom, happy in the knowledge that they were secure. Often they were laughed at by others for essentially backing the favourite at low odds instead of betting on an outsider with a high risk high return. It’s turned out to be medium risk and low turn, an odds- on bet I think it’s called? Everyone is suffering to a greater or lesser extent and this public private sector bashing serves nobody. By the way 30,000 jobs have been lost in the public sector, many by people who paid the so called pensions levy but will never get anything for it. That’s 10 % of people losing their jobs. And the rest down 25% in income. Fair enough?

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    • I wonder was it your wages that the public service was benchmarked against? Maybe that was part of the problem? If you lost 75% of your wages and you are now on any more than €250 a week for the same job, then you were probably overpaid too. This simplified view of you against me when it comes to public and private sector is exactly what the government wants. Direct your anger at the people who deserve it, not the easy target. Having a job in the public isn’t shameful, nor is it charity. If you think this country can do without public servants try living in such a society and then tell me what that’s like.

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    • Jim says mild reductions in comparison to private sector,
      True many banks and building jobs-are gone, but many others continue to earn in the private sector without reductions
      If you think we have it so good , come join us, ying and yang Jim

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    • Jim you are eighter a politican or a member of one of the parties in government.
      Do you not think its time that the government stood up and showed the way, take a very large cut that they can feel the pain that that they want us to feel.
      They stood back a few weeks ago when they had the chance with the bankers.But instead said of we cant inerfere with them.

      Reply
  • Whinge, whinge.

    What is in this for the public?
    For example, As Michael Clifford points out in today’s Irish Examiner, HSE registrars won’t work at weekends so no Saturday civil weddings which are normal elsewhere (including Northern Ireland). Will this change? If not, why not?
    How many more “Spanish Practices” remain untouched?

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  • Come back Reggie – all is forgiven.

    Reply

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