Very well said Mark Neville, agree with you on that.
The sooner we get a Government that actually cares about the people of this country and not their friends in Germany the better, Michael Noonan will not burn the Bondholders because he is one of them.
Traitors to the Irish people every one of them.

That job(VHI CEO) was always a reward position for political services rendered. The company is a sham insurance company, exploiting a bs health system and tearing the hole out of it. Where does the need for ‘person with High expertise’ come into it, ANYBODY can rise premiums willy-nilly if you are semistate ffs.

I c how u never addressed the fact that 80% of the education budget is pay
Note : the average teachers pension pot would cost 1million euro in the private sector but let’s all continue living in Alice in wonderland and not address these issues

Apologies Mel, I had written my comment before seeing your’s regarding the education budget. I don’t have time at the moment to go through the Vote 26 2012 Revs to check the pay/non pay split, but I would imagine it is a large percentage pay. Most Voted expenditure is. I’m not familiar with the structure of that Vote, I don’t know what extra entitlements/allowances teachers get so I can’t and would not dare comment on where savings could be made. I don’t know how your figure of €1m for the average teachers pension pot was arrived at, so I can not comment on that either.
And having never read Alice in Wonderland or seen any film version I can’t comment on your “let’s all continue living in Alice in wonderland” comment. But I do find the tone of it very derogatory and negative. It brings nothing to the debate.

Very well said Blah! Mel…maybe quit while you’re…well, maybe just quit!! Yeah!?!

@ Mel

I have addressed the issue below regarding teachers’ pay as a % of DES budget. Comparing teachers’ pensions and the private sector is somewhat spurious. You are obliged to pay into a pension as a public servant. I have a statutory obligation to pay 15% of my salary into a pension fund which (a) Will be lost if the euro fails and (b) takes in more than it pays out. It used to be the case where a public service pension was the best thing since Brennan’s sliced their pan. However, a report was commissioned by the teachers’ unions and was carried out by an independent, private sector body. The findings were published in the Trident Report. You can read it for yourself if you like. Note page 2 in particular.

http://www.tridentconsulting.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Trident-report.pdf

If your in Canada tell me how much do public servants get paid there
A lot less I can imagine ,asRegards the pension ,I couldn’t afford to contribute to my pension as I was using every penny for wages and stock and keeping the business going and trying to keep people employed
Try running a business some time then come back to me!

well said

No im a realist,your the one who thinks that what you paid into your pension would come anyway near the real cost of providing that pension
The fact that your in the same job for 18 years shows how insulated you are from the real world
You should be glad you had a job for 18years but you still expect your big tax free lump sum when the state is broke
You have job security that on itself should be enough but no it’s gimme more I’m entitled

‘The fact you’re in the same job for 18 years shows how insulated you are from the real world’ (???)
Mel – it is possible that people actually like their jobs & want to stay in them!!! The fact it’s a secure civil service job doesn’t come into it!! The majority of Firemen, Guards & Nurses go into these roles because they want to save lives, serve the public & care for the sick!! Ur last comment has no merit!!

I’m not blaming the public sector I’m only stating the facts
The tax take that supported your wages has collapsed and until you get real then we will continue to have services for the most vulnerable curtailled just to keep the criminal Croke Park deal going
Fact 80% of the education budget goes on pay and pensions therefore all the cuts have to come from the other 20%
But sure as long as your ok!

@ Mel

First of all, it’s not 80%. They were 2006 levels. There has been a drastic reduction in pay (15-20%) and numbers (3,300 since Sept 2008) in education. Secondly, even if it was 80%, it is 80% of the second lowest spend on education in the OECD. Thirdly, in any business/enterprise/organisation, labour is usually the biggest cost. I notice from your earlier post that you run a business, so you should know that. It’s all well and good to throw statistics around as if they’re sacrosanct pieces of information. Perhaps, in the interest of fairness, you could be kind enough to provide the full picture before casting aspersions upon people’s livelihoods.

You should have joined the Public service when you had the chance then, shouldn’t you. Unions protecting employment standards for low paid workers wouldn’t have any bearing on you not having a decent pension plan, but they’re an easy scapegoat, thanks to govt spin.

Even though Mel got more thumbs down, he is spot on. Historically, the private sector of the jobs base is ALWAYS what works to fuel ANY economy ANYWHERE in the world. However, it seems that liberal governments consistently slash the private sector, punishing entrepeneurs, small businesses, and the middle class. Funny enough, the hardest workers always seem to be the least entitled, so they either suffer here, or they emigrate to Australia or Canada. Public-sector favoritism decimated Russia’s economy in the early 1900’s, it led to the USA’s first credit downgrade in history, and it’s sending a whole generation of Irish across the ocean to escape our historically-proven defunct economic policy!

Everyone had their chance to join the civil service when the economy was doing well but many chose the private sector for the added perks and bonuses. I remember being slagged over the fact that I didn’t get a Christmas bonus and that I was a mug to work for the Govt. Now that the economy has gone tits up all the lower paid civil servants who were the butt of jokes when the economy was good are now being told how overpaid we are and how our money should be cut and that we should do more for less. nBit of a joke really, classic manipulation by the Govt and media to have the Public and Private sector at each others throat while our country is being sold out from beneath our feet by a Govt that does not represent the best interest of their people. Fine Gael and Labour are acting in their own best interest not ours.

Nobody is telling Low paid civil servents that they are paid too much! They are telling you that higher paid civil servants earn too much, and its costing YOU as well!

Dave’s right – we can’t really cut the low-end public servants’ pay. We all know guards don’t make a mint. However, maybe we should establish a committee that compares politicians’ pay with the average cost of living. I think the figures would be sickening.

Spot on Toby

Gemima I wouldn’t put Gardai in with the lower paid public/civil service! Their standard pay is quite reasonable but there are enough unnecessary allowances to make a politician blush!

And they are worth every penny. Its time those who do real work in this country were rewarded rather than endless armies of officialdom.

Dave I have no problem with Gardai collecting a decent wage I was merely pointing out that they’re not low paid! Also there is a myriad of allowances that I would like to see paired back! Why anyone deserves an allowance when they’re not working night shifts to make up for the fact that they’re not receiving their night premium seems bizarre to me!

Well, that’s fair enough I guess. Such allowances also entail added administration which is a further cost. I simply fail to see why low paid civil servants defend a system that’s also costing them. We’re ALL paying for largesse, and i’m guessing we’re all fed up of working just as hard to stand still and struggle. nnSo, lower paid civil servants – choose your allies carefully. Your present selection isnt serving you very well.

When I was working in the private sector in IT I was earning €950/week before tax and now that I’m working in the public sector in the same job, I’m only earning €495/week before tax.
I would consider myself to be low paid for my experience, but I’m happy that I have a job and fed up with people begrudging low paid workers in the public sector.
We did NOT cause this mess, the bankers and politicians did and they are getting off scot free. Even our new overpaid government lied to get into government so they could insure a cosy retirement for themselves.
Political greed will never end in this country.
So please stop bashing the lower paid people in the public sector, we are not all earning massive pay packets.

Ged that’s a huge difference in wages between the two, I would have imagine professional skills were rewarded better in civil service but I don’t understand the system at all! Also I’ve never seen anyone bash lower paid employees either public or private, the guys at the top and the system are what is out of whack!

@Ted, regardless of what you do, you are the grade you are and are paid accordingly. And by god do people in that position depend on their meagre increment!

Hi Ted Carroll

Alas you don’t get paid for your experience in the public sector, you only get paid on a grade basis, I know of people that work as clerical staff that get paid more than me, simply because of their grade and without increments I would be F**Ked

@Ged & Ted. That is a huge problem with the Civil Service wage structure. You have the 30 year service Clerical staff, who may do nothing more than filing getting paid more than a technical IT person. You can also have the 2 year service Clerical Officer, who has shown initiative and is working well beyond his or her grade for no extra reward and no hope of it for the foreseeable future. These are the people that a freeze on increments will really hurt. Not the guys at the top of the system, or even the people in the middle.

Agreed , it embarrassing they would even post such a puerile reply , “well why didn’t you join when you had the chance “I’d expect it out of a 5 year old .

Im a public sector worker and Im sick to death of this public sector bashing . I have 350 gone from my wages every 2 weeks for usc and pension levy .ive still to pay my pension tax prsi .i ve had it with the lies the government are throwing out about the p.s they are turning each employment group against each other.we could nt get people to join my job in the celtic years as they would lode money. The fact is I and my fellow workers are not spending cash and the private work force are the ones suffering as a result of this .LEAVE THE PUBLIC SECTOR ALONE …DONE YOU REALLY WANT A GARDA .FIREMAN, NURSE , TEACHER ETC WHO COULDN’T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THEIR JOBS AND THIS IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. 999 is unavailable at this time. Please call back

Once again, red-thumb all you like – Learn from history or you are doomed to repeat it. In our state of affairs we need to fuel the private sector at all costs. It is the ONLY thing that will work. I don’t believe this because I want to – quite frankly, it’s a hard pill to swallow. I just can’t turn a blind eye to the mistakes other countries have made for centuries – I’d prefer to learn from their mistakes. By the way, all you red-thumbers, here’s a question for you: can you look through your history books and find a country that formulated a SUSTAINABLE public sector-based economy? I’m listening . . .

It was people like you who didn’t want public service jobs when the country was living the high life in the private sector. As a public sector worker I can tell you no one wanted my job when times were good, now there’s a queue.

How many times do you guys have to be told , if you are a middle or low earning public servant YOU should be demanding the croke park is torn up and replaced with an agreement that protect your incomes at level comparable to your European colleagues who do a similar job ,not protecting guys in county council et al making 80or 90 k or principal officers who are being protected as they are linked to TD,s. now what wrong with this ????

Mel, surely by giving out about your 40% pay cut, you’re the one with the entitlement issues. Just cos you got a kick in the nuts due to private sector greed, don’t take it out on unions ensuring they protect their members. Without unions, we’d all be on a pittance with no job security… Which suits the likes of IBEC and SMEs who are already getting around employment legislation by getting Jobbridge interns to do full time jobs for a lot less than minimum wage at no actual cost to them.

That would be their pay check wouldn’t it frank!?! What they, like everyone else, get for doing their job!?!?!

Well said Nuffsaid Thatsall

Would Frank like to have no health care system, fire service and all the other necessary public sector jobs. Or should we just work for nothing Frank

The Public Service (not just Civil Service) are being paid increments because their salaries are incremental. It’s part of their core pay. Which is protected under the Croke Park Agreement. As long as CP is in place people need to get over that. When it is over or scrapped then come back to the increments. Maybe it is just madness that Public Service salaries are incremental?That the vast majority have to work over 10 years before coming near the average industrial wage. Maybe the whole Public Service pay structure needs to be revamped. I suggest all should take a look at the Revised Estimates for 2012 (on DPER website) and see where a lot of the non pay expenditure is going. A lot of madness there too.

Mel, thanks to the pension levy, public sector pensions in the future will be cost neutral. The days of the honey pot are well and truly over except for those in the upper echelons of both the public and the private sector.

Mel, Alice in wonderland is looking for you.

Mel I’m entitled to my pension because I work hard and I pay for it. I don’t intend justifying myself to you Mel. My husband is in the private sector and I’m well aware of what’s going on, he’s been made redundant twice and only for my job we’d be on the dole, and getting rent allowance – but I suppose you’d begrudge me that as well.

Mel, I suggested you quit your rant ‘cus Blah! Was wiping the floor with your pathetic attempts at comebacks to his comments!! I know enough to know I’m not as well versed as Blah! on the issues being addressed but it’s painful watching you rant on here tonight!! But sure, whatever does it for you mate, keep at it!!