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Dublin: 12 °C Friday 24 May, 2013

Farming bodies against asset testing for third-level grants

Interest groups say the move could result in children from low-income families being refused maintenance assistance.

Image: Marion Doss via Creative Commons/Flickr

PROPOSALS TO INCLUDE productive assets in the assessment of third-level maintenance grants have been roundly opposed by farming and youth groups today.

The Irish Farmers’ Association (IFA) said that any move to include productive assets, such as farmland, in assessments would show “a complete bias against farmers and other self-employed”.

IFA President, John Bryan said the farming community would not accept changes to assessment procedure that would result in children from low-income families being refused grants: “The Minister for Education, Ruairi Quinn, is in no doubt about IFA’s position on this issue. At a meeting with the Minister earlier this year, we made it clear that productive assets, such as farmland, are required by self-employed businesses to generate income and are not a measure of additional ability to pay. This means that farmland and other productive assets cannot form any part of a fair means assessment,” he said.

The Irish Cattle and Sheep Farmers’ Association also came out in opposition to such proposals – and called on all TDs to do the same.  ICSA president, Gabriel Gimartin, welcomed the fact that a number of deputies voiced their opposition to such changes, noting that the ICSA has been “actively lobbying against any such move since the possibility was first mooted.”

Gilmartin said: “The really critical issue is that most farms actually generate very low levels of income.  Perhaps that explains why such farm families are very keen to get their children to go to third level in the expectation that the farm cannot provide a decent living.  The evidence is clear that almost all cattle and sheep farms do not support an income anywhere near the cut-off for third level grants.”

Meanwhile, Macra na Feirme National President, Alan Jagoe, also rejected the proposals to include assets in assessment – saying that any such move would be “incredibly short-sighted”.

“The fact is that the average full-time farmer will not be in a position to send their child to college without the assistance of an educational grant,” Jagoe said.

“Irish farming operates on a rather unique business model that centres around the family farmland is not readily comparable to other business sectors that commonly use other structures such as companies. Farmers could be viewed as a soft target for introducing means testing of assets. Many farm families while asset rich are income poor… 2009 proved to be a prime example with average incomes well below the average industrial wage.”

Read: Students fear ‘two-tiered’ college system as Quinn endorses loan scheme>

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Comments (70 Comments)

  • Once it’s a fair assessment process then there can be no reason for it not to be implemented surely ?

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  • The amount of anecdotal evidence I’ve heard of well off farmers getting grants for their kids!

    No one should be afraid of a means test. Open the books, see what you’re making, see if you *NEED* the money or not.

    The massive abuse of the grant system is what undermines it. That’s unfortunate considering so many people out there genuinely need assistance!

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    • They are not opposing the idea of means-testing, they are opposing the inclusion of farmland as an asset in the means test calculations. A farmer selling their farmland to send their children to college would be the equivalent of a business person selling off their premises to send their children to college.

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    • Ah here ryan I’m sure there is a reasonable threshold of the value of farmland being taken into account

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    • @ David, your comment makes no sense in the context of this article. And your first line is missing any reference to the amount of students from “well off” farming families that you have met – how many are there, and how “well off” are they?
      Would you expect a PAYE worker to cash in a pension fund to send a student to college? Or a shopkeeper to sell his shop? Is a taxi drivers car value included in his income? (it’ll be deducted in fact)….
      Your usually quick to defend FG, but you seem to be out of kilter with the traditional party line here…

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    • Hate to disagree with you David but coming from a farming background I’m with Ryan on this.

      Having land does not pay for education. The only money made from it is through produce and rental in my familys case anyway. We qualify for the grant and quite frankly need it. Including these items is fair.

      Yes my familys land is worth a nice amount of money but if its sold then our only source of income is gone. The inclusion of farmland makes no sense to be honest.

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    • Your beloved fine gael would face wipeout if they stabbed their farmer fanbase in the back with something like this David .land is still overvalued in Ireland and it is rather sums to use it’s value to deny the grant. They should just concentrate on the income side of things to determine who qualifies and who doesn’t .some big rich farmers do take advantage and should be stopped. But some comments claiming all are milking the system are stupid.not yours David !

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  • AdeleM 08/08/12 #

    Made me sick in college to see my friends from farming backgrounds (many of whom were quite well off) queuing for their grants and going shopping with them! My parents didn’t even apply for me because my father worked for a state owned company (not on near the same take home money as my friends parents!) and said my application wouldn’t even be considered because of his work.

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  • About time. Went to college and got no grant even though i came from sovial housing my mother worked extremely hard to gibe me opportunities yet girl from my home town got full grant. They had a large farm, massive house and well over 100 acres and other assets.

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  • Mark 08/08/12 #

    As always, the money rich farmer will have creative accounting on their side, and a good solicitor, and will dodge any attempt to stop them from getting the grant. The small farmer, who is making just enough money to make farming sustainable, who can’t afford to employ creative accountants, will end up losing out.
    I have one question for those who have commented already, how much do ye actually know about farming?? Does your knowledge stretch as far as recognising that there’s a cow in the field by the side of the road, or do you know more??
    Broad sweeping statements about “moaning farmers” are incredibly short sighted and just plain pointless. I hope that ye enjoy milk in your tea, beef products for your dinner, think where they come from!!

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  • I’m sure there are lots of struggling business owners in Ireland that would love the state and the EU to subsidise their businesses and give their children college grants but there’s no way that would be sustainable. Farmers seem to be a special case though. The Irish state since its foundation was always incredibly rural focused. The legacy of this has been policies that seem to treat farmers as superior to the rest of us. When a property tax based on site valuation comes into force, I have no doubt the farmers will be excluded while young couples trying to service a €300k mortgage on their crappy mid terrace in commuterville will be expected to pay up.

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  • I laugh every time I watch reeling in the years on RTE. The time, clothes and trends all change except the one constant, the farmers crying and moaning they’re not making money. We’re all in the same boat this time, no one is making money so let them pay their share.

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    • When I was in college the only ones with grants were self employed and farmers children paye workers had no chance one girls father had a factory and he put his co in liquidation so her and her brother would get grant and put money in isle of man she was given brand new golf for birthday while another girl whose father was a bus driver when he got overtime he went over the income limit and she had to leave college. Just like tax those who can hide their money and assets pay no tax and get grants so I hope this resolves this anomaly paye workers are sick of shouldering the cost of the well off I am not talking about poor farmers but the large farmers and self employed

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  • farmers=poor mouth moaners.
    its too wet, its too dry, its too sunny, its too cloudy. wheres my handout?
    most farms in ireland are too small to be profitable, consolidation is required. unprofitable businesses shouldnt be supported by the taxpayet, be it a bank, insurance company or a farm.

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    • Mark 08/08/12 #

      A good city dweller comment. Mind you don’t get lost when you step off the footpath!!!!!
      Oh, and fair play to you for never complaining about the weather. You know what they say about the pot, the kettle and the colour black buddy!!!!!

      Reply
  • What is the average annual farm income and what does the bell curve look like? Is there a disproportionate amount earning above the grant thresholds?

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  • A farm may be worth a million or even more on paper but the only value it can really give a family are the earnings made from working the farm. You can’t just say they have the land so they could sell to put a dependant through college. Even if a portion of the land could be sold in the current climate, the loss will almost certainly reduce the earning capabilities of the farm, becoming more and more unprofitable until farmers may have to give up and sign on. A lot of people who really aren’t entitled to it do get the grant but it’s not just the farmers..

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  • Lots of resentment, lots of assertions here, precious little evidence. I’d like the evidence in aggregated statistics please. Anecdotes gathered in order to confirm pre existing biases merely fuel resentment and do not add real intelligence to judgement.

    I do not object to means tests, I’ve undergone three this year, one for social welfare, two for offspring’s college grant. I prepare all paperwork painstakingly and declare everything. (can’t afford an accountant).

    This household takes in a net self-employed income of around €5,000 and a net farm income of around €5000. Hours of work can vary from 20-60 per week for each. Means tested social welfare payments add roughly €9000 to household income of two adults, two near college age children. Both adults regularly apply for jobs to do to replace welfare, with no luck to date.

    A full tax return detailing all above income including welfare (as is legally required by the way) is made annually.

    House mortgage repayments (thankfully) are a manageable €700pm and no other debt. Land, which sits there and writes no cheque, other than farm income already fully declared, would prob fetch €120,000 if sold today.

    Not an IFA member, not a Yes voter.

    How much does this story confirm all your prejudices – for lo, I am none other than your scheming farming sponger, with my hand stuck in all your pockets. Trade places with me if you dare!

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  • Income does not make you rich. Assets make you rich.

    If you are rich you do not need grants to send your kids to university.

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  • Can you put your Corvette or Ferrari down as a tractor?

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  • Des B 08/08/12 #

    It’s very simple. I take the point that some farming incomes are low, but if you are asset rich and cash poor, then you liquidate some of your assets.
    If someone has farm land worth a few mill, but are making a low income they should not be entitled to any had outs grants or otherwise. They have a choice. If their income means they can’t afford the things they want to do, then they can sell their asset and finance things such as a college education.

    I fully support the provision of grants for those that would otherwise be unable to pursue a college education but am sick to the back teeth of asset rich farmers putting their hand in my and other tax payers pockets when their net worth is far higher than those who are truly struggling.

    Agree with the earlier poster. If farms don’t generate a viable income, they should not be supported by the state. They should be sold and consolidated into viable units. If a plumbers business isn’t profitable he isnt kept going by govt grants

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    • Say a family run a small supermarket, which hasn’t been doing so well in the last couple of years. The premises is the only asset of substantial value. Should the business premises be sold to send the children to college, leaving the parents to live off the proceeds of the sale until the proceeds run out and they are forced to go on the dole? Seriously – that is what you seem to be saying.

      As I’ve said above, the reason for subsidies is that the end price of food staples would be unsustainable for lower income families if there were no subsidies to farmers.

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    • Smiley 08/08/12 #

      Absolutely. Non-farmers have to sell assets or borrow to fund what they need. Why should farmers be any different?

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  • Ive no problem with Farmers, but i do with tractors holdin up a rake of cars behind them. Bloody tractors.. and half them on the phone.

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  • Wow. New Zealand built a thriving economy on its one main asset, good green grass, the people embraced agriculture and built a thriving sector that is visible world wide. Ireland has the same asset, the same talent but unfortunatly not the same support from its population. Get real folks, you can lambast the poor farmer till the COWS come home but agri business is the only likely sector to get Ireland out of the hole that manufacturing and construction dug for us. My advise, grab your wellies and rush back to the family farm.

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  • Most people who comment about farmers have never had any meaningful engagement with farming or farmers and are merely perpetuating age old urban prejudice.

    Read the farmers journal the odd time and educate yourselves.

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  • I bet they are!

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  • Best news I’ve heard this year! That shower have been getting away with murder for generations!

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  • It seems that there are many people in Ireland who genuinely don’t have a grasp on the difference in a farmer having assets, and having a steady, dependable income. When i was in college, my grant was put towards accommodation, travel, food etc,as was my wage from a weekend job, so that my farming parents could spend less on me,and more on trying to generate income from the farm. For those who wreckon the grants were used for shopping, they were clearly in the shops with those few!

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  • Smiley 08/08/12 #

    Any farmer who gets money from EU should automatically be disqualified from an education grants scheme.

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    • Some farmers only get a few hundred euro from the EU. Should they be cut off?

      And if all subsidies were cut off, the price of food staples would increase drastically – affecting lower income families most of all. Milk and beef products would be unprofitable to produce for most farmers if they didn’t get subsidies from the EU.

      Typical Irish begudery without looking at the wider picture.

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    • Smiley 08/08/12 #

      Actually, no. To give an example from friends: New Zealand farmers lost all subsidies some 25 years ago. Much grumbling and complaining. My farming friends there say it is the best thing that happened. Farming became efficient, access to their overseas markets became competitive so sales increased. Predictions of the end of the world didn’t come to pass. Markets expanded.

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    • Smiley 08/08/12 #

      Farmers have a valuable assets: land, plant and equipment, houses. No funding for education. Too easy for accountants to fudge the books to bring them below any cut-off point.

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  • Typical sweeping generalisations. Did some of ye even read the article. Farmers are means tested for the grant. Like everyone else. Yes times are a bit better now for farmers as they are one of the few sectors doing well in this ailing economy. Go into all the market towns around the country and the small businesses hardware stores and the like and ask them who is keeping their businesses going. The farmers.

    I will agree their is a lot of small unviable farms in the country that are only worked part time as hobbies.

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  • When my father passes on the farm it looks like i will be rich! Well thats how it seems to most people sharing the same brush of tar.

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  • Its hard to have any pity as you can see from numerous posts that many farmers have been riding the grant system for years.

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  • The Farmers want their cash cow yet they opted to vote yes. How hypocritical! They can’t have it both ways.

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  • Farmers campaigned for a yes vote. That was selfish thinking and now they have to pay the price.

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    • Really Tim? Really?

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    • Mark 08/08/12 #

      Tim,
      At the risk of repeating myself here, you are a one line parrot. Have you not got anything substantial to add to this discussion?

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    • Mark,

      The media waves were riddled with the IFA calling for people to vote yes. That is the problem. Ireland now requires €5 billion of extra austerity because farmers voted yes to the Treaty. You had a very influential vote but now it’s backfired upon you. Expect more austerity. There is a price to pay for voting Yes…

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    • Mark 08/08/12 #

      Right, so it’s all because the farmers apparently voted yes that this country is now the way it is. Couple of points to make on that Tim.
      1. The IFA weren’t the only ones who advocated a yes vote.
      2. The IFA weren’t the only group using the media to encourage a yes vote.
      3. Just because the IFA said we had to vote yes, it doesn’t mean we all did.
      4. I’d like to see what percentage of farmers actually voted yes. There are more influential voters out there than farmers I’m sure.
      5. Even though I’m from a farming background, neither me nor any members of my family are members of the IFA, not that that makes any difference.

      I’m of the opinion that you are looking for someone to pin the blame on regarding these cuts we have to make, and sure why not blame the agricultural sector. If it lets you sleep at night, then blame us. If you feel like taking a step back and thinking rationally, you’ll see how narrow minded and bigoted you are appearing to be!!

      Reply
  • It is true that a lot of farms in Ireland are small and not in profit. If you scanned the ages of farmers in Ireland over 2/3 would be over the age of 50. The next decade or so will see big changes. Many small farms will probably go into forestry especially where land is of poor quality. Some land will be bought up by younger farmers who want to expand with the end of milk quotas on the horizon. So there will be far fewer farmers. Even hobby/part time farmers will be discouraged from continuing if they cant at least break even. We are lucky in this country to have quality food. With the bad weather this summer the costs for many farmers will eat into any income earned. Farmers generally see the farm as something they get for a while before they pass it to the next generation. Selling some of it to pay for a child’s education has many risks and may make the farm unviable in the long term. Granted some farmers have done very well selling sites and land for development. There have been farmers who sold their land in the boom and bought it back from NAMA 5 years later for a 1/4 of the price.

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