I have friends in Sweden who speak with American accents.One girl I met in Aus was from Stockholm but sounded like she’d crawled out of the deep South.Dutch people often have English accents. There are Chinese UCC students with North side Cork accents.
Maybe the international media interview israeli’s who speak English. Would that be so hard to believe.
In fact most of Ashkelons and Sderots residents are jewish refugees from Arab and North African lands.

Not to mention the number of Irish kids with half yanky accents.

Expanionist?? So that is why they left the Sinai with all its oil for Peace. It left Gaza and left their farms in tact for Gazans who latter destroyed them.For peace.
Israel has and will make the nessecary steps to make peace with its neighbours.Once it actually has someone who wishes to make peace with israel.At the moment.There is no one.Unless you can tell me who wants to make peace

the reason they have american accents is because they are american, just like irish americans who decide to move to their ancestral land here.

Thanks for that Barry. My comment is purely to illustrate ‘perceptions’ and how they can contribute to situations (particularly here in post colonial Ireland) where conclusions and comparisons can be made. I’m pretty sure many of the ‘nationalist/catholic population of N Ireland can have English accents.

Many Europeans of my generation speak English with English or American accents and phrasing mostly from watching TV with subtitles. I don’t accept that that can explain the situation in Israel.

john most israelis werent born there thats why they have american or european accents. the country is only 60 years old, how do you expect them to speak?

Waffler. Your right Israeli’s are from a diverse number of countries. but in fat 50 per cent of Israel is made up of people from North Africa and the Middle East. Few of these speak English fluently.
The Americans there are often teachers. But American Israeli’s make up a very small section of Israeli society. I think the media like to interview them because of the very sheer fact people will look and think look at the New Yorker speaking about “his” land, While if they interviewed a Yemeni-Israeli Jew with an accent people would not view him/her in the same light.

The Irish teachers out teaching TEFL in Asia. Will certainly have their accents rubbing off on young Asian kids.

Waffler! I understand that Jewish/Israeli are historically a widely scattered people and i understand that their cultural influences – language//food/religious customs etc. are widely varied. I don’t need a lesson in that. Read the post again – my point is about perceptions and how they can drive opinion.

Oh! and just so that you know. I would rather have this discussion in this manner with an Israeli rather than an Arab. You bet!

Most Israelis today are descendants of Mizrahi Jews – i.e. those expelled from the Middle East and North Africa after 1948. They may very well speak English with American accents but as Barry says, many people acquire English with an American accent. It is the accent in which the non-anglophone world most often hears English.

Absolutely! The diversity of background in Israel is immense with diverse nationalities and cultures. One must not forget that there was once thriving Jewish communities in most large Irish cities. Irish Jews who might just as easily speak to the cameras with an Irish accent when the next bomb falls. Not all’s as it seems sometimes!

Now you might see where I was going Barry. Enjoyed your comments. Thanks

And the bit of duty free, too !!!

the last flotilla included beer, im sure the muslims wouldve appreciated that!

So what your saying is Hamas’s genocidal covenant. Its rockets. The suicide attacks,Are all Israel’s fault.
The aggression between Iran and Iraq and Iran and Saudi. Thats Israel’s fault too?

You seriously going to try tell me. If Israel had never been created. There would be complete peace and harmony in the middle East. The wars in Lebanon would never have happened between Christians and Muslims

The Iran – Iraq conflict has the US stamped all over it to be fair. They were funding an advising both sides during that war.. Let’s not accuse Israel of what is NOT their fault..

grow up Barry. read a little bit of the story before you put your foot in your mouth….

Ofcourse that’s what he’s saying…honour killing and mutilation are okay, along with sending children to commit suicide – and anyway it’s all because of “provocation” from Israel..
What people don’t seem to like is that when they try to murder lots of Jews (as they frequently do); even though they might hurt Jews and kill some of them, they never manage to kill anything like as many as they wanted. It must be very upsetting indeed – and ofcourse very frustrating. Big bad Israel for continuing to survive and insisting on living – and ultimate cheek: they even treat Palestinians in their hospitals and save hundreds of Palestinian lives – in between having to destroy terrorist cells and trying not to hurt the civilian “martyrs” who the terrorists are hiding behind.
Good brave Irish activists! aren’t they nice to go and show solidarity with a regime that supports child suicide, female circumcision, honour killings – and ofcourse the murder of Christians.
And ofcourse those Arabs who’ve converted to Christianity and have a rather different story to tell are simply….irrelevant… as are those who have been executed by Hamas for allegedly being spies for Israel…as are those who have been executed for selling apartments to Jews…. the list goes on. (I don’t give a damn if anyone tries to abuse me for what I’ve just written. Any insults they might make just go back to them).

Going slightly off topic here – aside from the illegitimate, callous, and probably illegal blockade, I want to talk about the debating tactics of the pro-Israelis posting here over the past few days.

It started off that the Palmer Report said the blockade was legal, and that was that. When it was pointed out that UN Resolution 2011/41 calls for the blockade to be ended, this point was dropped.

Then certain posters claimed that “there is no hunger/humanitarian crisis in Gaza”, and referred to a Red Cross report, which was never linked to despite requests. In any event, when this point was contradicted, by reference to the above resolution, and other sources. Again, this point has been dropped.

Then, there was the NO AID ON THE SHIP line, which has also been shown to be false, and again dropped.

From where I see it, we’re left with three main points:

Firstly attacks on the activists themselves – commies/scruffs/provos, and such, to which I say play the ball, not the men.

Secondly the vaguely bigoted line that Islam is barbaric and calls for the extermination of Jews, and Judaism is a fine civilised religion, with Israel being a progressive secular state unlike its neighbours. Which is an argument I think veers dangerously towards a base expression of prejudice, and one that certainly isn’t at all relevant to the question of the legitimacy of the blockade.

Finally, there’s the related point that Hamas are a gave existential threat to Israel, bent on their destruction, and all means are justified. Nobody’s denying that Hamas are a dangerous organisation, or claiming that rocket attacks on the civilian populace aren’t a war crime, just the same as collective punishment.

But employing tactics that lead to starvation and brutalisation of the civilian populace cannot be justified. Collective punishment is a war crime, under the Geneva conventions.

It cannot be justified especially in circumstances where it doesn’t appear to be militarily effective – 40 rockets fired in the past week, allegedly. Surely a military that receives annual aid to the tune of $3billion can do better than collective punishment against a rag-tag army, improvising rockets from sewer pipes, per one poster. Who are the lawless terrorists here, and who is the liberal democracy?

Unless, of course, the policy aims of the blockade extend beyond limiting Hamas’ military capacity.

I honestly think that some posters here are so intent on defending Israel at all costs that they can’t see the wood for the trees. It isn’t anti-Israeli to call for an end to this gross abuse of the civilian population. In fact, I would see it as almost pro-Israeli – I think that Israel would have an easier time garnering international support and sympathy if aberrations such as the blockade are addressed, and basic standards of humanitarian law, and basic human decency, applied to the Palestinian people.

How mature.
Seriously these retarded. Israel is to blame for everything comment.Is boring and simply untrue. Its like saying the Spanish or the British are responsible for everything in the world that is wrong. Most people here are adults and are at least able to look at the bigger picture.

Read the article. “THEY” the activists who went to Gaza on a boat funded by well meaning Irish people.Can hardly come home saying.Oh yes they were lovely and nothing bad happened.
The reality is. THE IDF is not going to let itself ever get caught out again. Thats why almost everything is filmed. Israel does not want the Mavi Marama controversy to ever happen again.

Niall. Have you read the Palmer report or do you prefer to ignore it?? Its not probably illegal.
The UN found the maritime blockade of Gaza. LEGAL

Very many of the activists were Provo’s . So rich lecturing anyone on violence.Looking at the background of the people on board.Is not doing anything wrong.It shows their motives and backgrounds

“Secondly the vaguely bigoted line that Islam is barbaric and calls for the extermination of Jews,” GO READ THE HAMAS CHARTER. SERIOUSLY

“40 rockets fired in the past week, allegedly” So if Jimmy Carter or these activists say its true ,but if an Israeli says it. Its a lie or half truth ????

“I would see it as almost pro-Israel” Really?? I doubt you even know what that is.

You continue to ignore the question. How do you propose to halt the rocket attacks and the Iranian backed guys in Gaza who wish to kill Israeli’s?

^

I rest my case.

That your response?? ROFL.
Don’t like your points being pulled apart do we??

Barry.. Did you look up what a fallacy is?
Here, I’ll help you, the nice people over at Nizkor have it all laid out nicely here;
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

And Ad Hominem (eg, your “retards” comment is number one)

As Niall pointed out above, there have been many fallacies trotted out in the comments relating to this event across several articles. He used different terms (play the ball not the man, whataboutery etc) but these are all what is known as Logical Fallacies. And are the hallmark of a failed argument.

Shanti.

You decided to ignore the points about N.K. then you’ve the “balls” to lecture me about fallacy.

Niall wishes to ignore the points he feels uncomfortable with. You do pretty much the same.

Good luck to you. I’ve no desire to attempt to converse with someone who self education makes them so self righteous its making me ill. You rattling on about “Talmudic laws” and Judaism.When its clear to anyone who even knows a slither about Judaism your reciting crap you’ve read online.
Get out into the real world and stop hiding inside on your computer.Slan

Regarding Hamas Barry, it’s rockets etc it is actually Israels fault that they have emerged as a threat http://www.wariscrime.com/2008/12/29/news/hamas-was-founded-by-mossad/ Israel used them as a proxy force in much the same way that the British used the UDA in the North. Mossad created Frankenstein’s monster and are now seeing it turn on themselves.

Barry, if you want to go through this again, I’m going to be at my computer working for most of the evening if you want to do this …. again. But I think that I’ve pretty much covered everything here. To reiterate:

Niall. Have you read the Palmer report or do you prefer to ignore it?? Its not probably illegal.
The UN found the maritime blockade of Gaza. LEGAL

Never said it was illegal, but the same UN called upon Israel to end the blockade on humanitarian grounds, so that does erode its significance ever so slightly.

Very many of the activists were Provo’s . So rich lecturing anyone on violence.Looking at the background of the people on board.Is not doing anything wrong.It shows their motives and backgrounds

Irrelevant. Deal with the issue of the blockade, don’t smear the activists. Play the man, not the ball.

“Secondly the vaguely bigoted line that Islam is barbaric and calls for the extermination of Jews,” GO READ THE HAMAS CHARTER. SERIOUSLY

Irrelevant. Hamas are a supposed lawless terrorist organisation, Israel is a liberal democracy, there are higher standards expected. Two wrongs, etc.

“40 rockets fired in the past week, allegedly” So if Jimmy Carter or these activists say its true ,but if an Israeli says it. Its a lie or half truth ????

Newspaper report I caught in passing. I’m sure it’s true, or I wouldn’t have cited it, but we’ve seen in the past day that certain sections of the Israeli press can tend to be … partisan.

“I would see it as almost pro-Israel” Really?? I doubt you even know what that is.

I don’t see this as a pro-Israel / anti-Israel argument. It’s a question of fundamental rights and basic human decency. You, on the other hand, clearly do see this as an attack on Israel, and are being needlessly belligerent and defensive.

You continue to ignore the question. How do you propose to halt the rocket attacks and the Iranian backed guys in Gaza who wish to kill Israeli’s?

I don’t need to propose it, that’s a matter for the professionals – the extremely well armed, well trained and well funded IDF.

There are certain basic standards of warfare, set out in the Geneva Conventions, aimed at preventing atrocities and needless suffering One of the clauses precludes punishment of the civilian population as a means of punishing/preventing militant activity.

There are also basic standards of human decency and ethics that dictate that intentionally inflicting starvation on innocent children cannot be justified under any circumstances.

You can keep going if you like, I’ll be here all night.

You said this “aside from the illegitimate, callous, and probably illegal blockade” Now your saying you never said it was illegal. Calling for it to be ended on humanitarian grounds is not the same as saying its illegal.

“Irrelevant” No its not.These are Provo’s not Gandhi’s so it is quite relevant

“Newspaper report I caught in passing. I’m sure it’s true, or I wouldn’t have cited it, but we’ve seen in the past day that certain sections of the Israeli press can tend to be … partisan. ” If thats the case adn you were unsure if it was true or not why say “allegedly” why not research before openi ng your mouth?

“You, on the other hand, clearly do see this as an attack on Israel, and are being needlessly belligerent and defensive.” I see the denial of Israel the right to protect its civilians like anyone else in a legal means as anti israel for sure I do.

“There are also basic standards of human decency and ethics that dictate that intentionally” .Surely thats a two way street. Israel pulled out of Gaza.It got rockets in return. Very hard to have decency when your dealing with fascists hell bent on your death.

You said this “aside from the illegitimate, callous, and probably illegal blockade” Now your saying you never said it was illegal. Calling for it to be ended on humanitarian grounds is not the same as saying its illegal.

Mea culpa, working on something else while typing this, it doesn’t have my full attention.

Should have clarified – the maritime blockade has been declared legal, but the collective punishment is, in my opinion, a war crime. Not that it’s ever likely to be prosecuted, with the US vetoing any attempt to independently investigate the claim. I would hope that one day the ICC will investigate and prosecuting both sides.

Yet again, nobody’s denying Israel’s right to defend its people. It’s the means that are at issue.

Your Opinion. Exactly. Its your opinion.Entitled to it.But doesn’t make it Fact.

How easy you wash your hands.First you say its not up for you to decide how Israel halts the rockets. Then you deny it any hope it has of stopping more rockets getting in. Which if it doesn’t will cause an even BIGGER war.
At the moment its sadly more tit for tat than it will be if Gaza continued to get rockets from Iran.
Then you turn around and say you don’t deny Israel its right to self defence. How pompus of you.

In “your opinion” what would be acceptable for Israel to do to defend itself. I am curious

Barry, I’m happy to discuss this, but please don’t start descending into personal slights, again.

Israel can legitimately employ any means that do not contravene the well established and internationally accepted laws of war. More fundamentally, it can deploy means that do not inflict needless suffering on innocents.

It’s interesting that you attempted to pull me up on saying … “There are also basic standards of human decency and ethics that dictate that intentionally”

but you neglected to include the remainder of the sentence:

“inflicting starvation on innocent children cannot be justified under any circumstances.”

This is the issue here. Basic humanity transcends nationality, religion and politics. Or, at least, it should.

Barry.

A. I never brought up NK, you did. I referred to the Jews not Zionists website – who distinguish themselves as seperate from the NK and the Satmar.
You have ignored this – in spite of me repeating it more than once.

B. I have explained why I brought these Rabbis views into the conversation.
1. It proves that not all Jews support Israel
2. It shows that there are extremist (eg literal followers of the Torah) views within Judaism.
3. it shows that there are Jews who are happy to live side by side with their Muslim neighbours.
But you have ignored that too.

As a side note, your reference to how the NK are vile and homophobic because they follow the Torah literally proves my other point that these ideologies have their roots in Judaism – which predates Islam and Christianity, and forms the root basis for both. The fact that you denounce this shows that you yourself denounce these elements of the Torah, as we all do here.

Then you insist upon putting ideals in my mouth (another fallacy), and make ad hominem attacks against me..
This is why I keep bringing you back to fallacies.

SHANTI. YOU MADE MY NIGHT.

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/contact.htm

Rabbi Mordecai W. Weberman. gOOGLE HIM.
He is a N.K rabbi. So yes N.K influence that pathetic website.
Seriously. Thank you. ROFL

Aww. Niall. I asked for “YOUR Opinion. ” Quit the touchyness. For feck sake

See as much as you go on about Gazan children. What about Israeli children. Who have their playgrounds as bomb shelters. Whose schools have been reinforced to stop rockets from killing them

If people are starving in Gaza. Why not demand Hamas increase the quantity of goods it seeks from Israel. There is the facilities to import 3 times what currently goes into Gaza.Is it Israels fault Hamas refuse to import more ?
Israel can only send in what Hamas asks for. As someone has to be there to collect it.

As I have said before with a higher life expectancy for Gazan men the Glasgow men and a lower infant mortality rate than most Islamic/Arab countries .Gaza is not the humanitarian crisis we are lead down the garden path to believe. Or was that just a quick glance you had over that report too.?? Do you quickly glance over much ? You complain about impartiality in Israeli media . How about the reports you read.? Are they impartial too.Or don’t you care

From that pathetic website;
“Contrary to common perception, Jewish anti-Zionism is not restricted exclusively to the well know Jewish anti-Zionist movements such as Satmar and Neturei Karta. 

There are in fact many Jewish movements, groups and organizations whose ideology regarding Zionism and the so-called  “State of Israel”  is that of the unadulterated Torah position that any form of Zionism is heresy and that the existence of the so-called “State of Israel” is illegitimate.

No one has had to create any antagonism between our Torah and Zionism because such antagonism exists by virtue of the essence of Judaism itself, which can never tolerate the heresy of Zionism.”

Forgive me for taking a Jew at his word..

It’s not touchyness, Barry, it’s about respecting other boarders.

Apparently it’s “pompous” of me to state the obvious fact that I respect Israel’s right to defend itself. Is this because I also take the view that this doesn’t equate to a carte blanch to treat the Palestinian people as they please.

You’ve accused me of double standards in literally your first reply to one of my posts, without any evidence or knowledge of my positions. You’ve also dropped in vague “someone like you” slurs. I think I’m within my rights to take issue.

I respect the fact that you’ve got strong emotional and personal ties to Israel, but do try taking the blinkers off. You’re trying to defend the indefensible here, your cause would be better served by taking a more reasonable and less belligerent stance.

My main source is the UN resolution – I have a good knowledge of how these resolutions are drafted, and I am absolutely certain that the resolution would not have been passed were there not a grave humanitarian issue in Gaza, particularly malnutrition among children.

http://www.un.org/en/ecosoc/docs/2011/res%202011.41.pdf

“Gravely concerned at various reports of the United Nations and specialized agencies regarding the substantial aid dependency caused by prolonged border closures, inordinate rates of unemployment, widespread poverty and severe humanitarian hardships, including food insecurity and rising health-related problems, including high levels of malnutrition, among the Palestinian people, especially children, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem,

Expressing grave concern at the deaths and injuries caused to civilians, including children, women and peaceful demonstrators, and emphasizing that the Palestinian civilian population must be protected in accordance with international humanitarian law, “

Or do you only acknowledge the UN when it supports Israel?

I have more respect for UN reports than General Assembly motions. For the very simple fact. Groups like the UN hUMAN rights committee had Libya as its head up until a short while ago.

There has been an easing of the Gaza border since last year. Much more now enters Gaza, Again your ignoring the fact .Hamas sets the demands.It could triple it .If it so choose to.

Shanti . You loosin gthe battle here. The website you’ve quoted from the last three days is run by the N.K Rabbi Mordechai Weberman .

“There are in fact many Jewish movements, groups and organizations whose ideology regarding Zionism and the so-called “State of Israel” Yes what they believe is the Messiah will come and they will take back all of the land of ancient Israel. A much bigger area than the current state of Israel . They believe when the Messiah calls them back all the previous inhabitants will then be forced off their land. That is what their “religous” belief is. So please. Keep quoting from them. Causes a great laugh.

Observation. Niall fights a much cleaner and less personal fight than Barry. Bye.

Oh Barry..

I quoted them for a specific reason, several in fact. I realise they are a minority. I also realise that within Islam you have minority groups and within Christianity you have them too.

I do not agree with their position that Israel should just be handed back, and I agree the idea that the messiah will lead them to Israel is hairbrained – but it’s in their holy book. The scripture for their religion. We as rational people can see how crazy this is, that is why I am not a follower of any of these religions, but to point to the extreme views within Islam without pointing to it’s counter balance is to leave out some of the pieces of the puzzle.

The claim to the land in question comes from this same scripture. It is beyond me how some can refer to this scripture so literally. But then again, it was not drummed into me from childhood. This decision to use the scripture as a basis for the claim on the land stands at odds with how the Torah fundamentalists see it which I find interesting. When I bring them to the conversation it is to show another stand point – not my own.
You are free to make your assumptions about my views, but I have stated quite clearly several times that;
1. Israel must exist, for it to be disolved at this stage would not make any sense.
2. Both sides have done wrong.
3. Both sides need to stop the violence.
4. They are all people – equal people – and as such deserve equal rights.

I share your sentiment Shanti.

As for Reada’s observation. Thank you,

Thank you Barry.
I did say to you last night that in some senses we shared views. And that I got the impression that you may feel I am diametrically opposed to your standpoint which is not true.
I am not “obsessed with Judaism” any more than I am obsessed with Christianity or Islam – I have sought to understand them all (and had some very eager Christians try to convert me!), I can see the problems inherent within them all. If I defend Muslims it is not because I agree with their religion, just that I realise that they all share a common root (and are all a bit crazy in their own right). I feel that it is very strange that criticism of Christianity and Islam are permitted while criticism of Judaism is not, but appreciate that this is linked to the holocaust – which I would never be so stupid as to deny happened. I do however fear that this open criticism of Islam is heading in the same direction as the anti semetism in Europe which predated the holocaust.. And that worries me.
So, this is why I am quick to remind people that not all Muslims are the same as the extremists (Not all Jews are Zionists – and neither are they all N.K.), and that the things we see as negatives about Islam in the media (barbaric, homophobic, intolerant of other nations etc) is also present in the Torah.. It is not to criticise the majority of Jews who do not adhere to these principles – merely to show that Islam is not alone, as you pointed out yourself, there are even Christian groups who share some of these ideals.

Ultimately it is the leaders who bear the brunt of my criticism – I do not believe the leaders on either side are truly interested in peace, the people on the ground are a different story (standard government fare eh?)

A bit more tolerance on ALL sides will be welcome, and my ultimate hope is that once all the dictators are toppled the Arab world will see a move away from such fundamentalist ideologies, but at the same time, it would be very easy for extremists to support their views by pointing to some of the actions that many would take issue with (like the expansions, white phosphorous, ratio of deaths on either side) as reasoning. It is flawed reasoning, as violence will never solve anything.. But it is also easy to see the psychology behind it.

Dom are they responsible for global warming, deforestation and the production of the HIV virus also? Or maybe it was them who invented gayness and not the Greeks.

Niall,

This is the article where Mathilde de Riedmatten, deputy director of the Red Cross in the Gaza Strip states that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. NB. She’s not saying things are fine – the people certainly face deprivation that “dashe[s] any hope of leading a normal and dignified life”

http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/News/today/2011/04/2004.htm

Does she mean there’s no malnutrition? I don’t know. and I’m aware that I’m sitting here in nice, comfortable, rich Ireland and I don’t want to holding forth on an area I’ve never. visited. However, if there is malnutrition, that doesn’t mean it’s caused by the blockade. Childhood malnutrition is also high just across the border in Egypt

Now, I know I’ve said more than enough on the topic, IE, but seeing as you’re addressing me directly, if IDF materials are your source, I may as well cite the likes of this:

http://www.rense.com/Datapages/gazdat.htm

Yes, I realise it’s ridiculous propaganda, that’s the point.

The fact remains that in 2006 the Israelis admitted a policy of putting Palestinians “on a diet” as a political strategy. 70% of Gazas people currently need aid to survive. The situation in Egypt isn’t comparable, not least because in Gaza’s problems are the result of a conscious decision.

Israel’s policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. ‘The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,’ he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel

Jerusalem Red Cross on the IDF piece:

‘the article was edited and therefore, does not reflect ICRC’s view of the current humanitarian situation in Gaza. Independently from what has been reported, what is important is that the situation is grave and serious.’

Official interview, on the Red Cross site – “Gaza: no end in sight to hardship and despair”

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/interview/2011/palestine-israel-interview-2011-05-19.htm

@ Dom – you wrote “Israel are responsible for the conflict in the middle east and yet no one wants to stand up to their bully boy tactics.”

Now I have an enirely different question for you: do you know what ‘Dom’ means in Dutch? – it means STUPID!!!

A multi-lingual put down! I tip my hat to you Dani. :-)

Why? because what.You don’t like what I’ve said.I’ve commented as much here as Niall and Shanti over the last few days.Yet you say nothing to them. I don’t really care either way. You just look like you’ve nothing to add to the debate except silly school like jibes.

Look like a man that just likes to see his own posts up in lights all the time !!

It’s not what you say Barry. It’s the way that you say it.

yeh how dare barry have the cheek to enter into debate on a public forum

R armo. I know I can be accused of getting splinters in my ass but without Barry it would have been very one sided debate. Just think he could be less personal.

I would agree with Reada here, we could probably all agree that Barry and I have been at loggerheads over the past few articles, but I too welcome his input.

Debate is not debate unless there are opposing views.. Without Barry and some others we may have just had a lot of people agreeing with each other.
I have pointed out that I was not pushed on the fallacy based arguments, and by the same token I would reject your personal attack on Barry. None of this needs to get personal. Debate the issues, not each other :)

R Armo,

Its people like Barry who by way of contribution to this site make it enjoyable and interesting, it allows us all to see and share similar and different viewpoints. Its people like you who end up making a mockery out of it.

There is no need to start that playground bullyboy – throwing the toys out of the pram act here. People are entitled to comment and share his or her opinion. They should be entitled to do this without fear of someone like you attacking their person.

If you have an issue with someones opinion then debate that, do not attack an individual here. I have yet to see any constructive posts from you.

Here here

@ shanti. You’re quite reasonable really and much easier to read when you’re not trying to explain to me the high regard Muslims have for their women and girls. You never insult or belittle those with whom you converse. Anyway we won’t start a conversation on that again. Slán.

Well, I have no problem with Barry – I respect his passion, even though I think that his admirable loyalty to his friends in Israel does lead to a certain myopia … my personal opinion, obviously. In the interests of full disclosure, some of my friends work or have worked in Gaza, so maybe that applies to both of us. And I do love a good argument … obviously.

No cause , reason for comment explained last time !!!

Darren, we’ll take it then that you are the one selected to make these prognostications as to the fitness of an Irish citizen to receive assistance.
Great when it goes your way, bummer when it doesn’t, but rest assured you’ll be there to make the right call.
Thankfully our countries assistance doesn’t march to your asinine beat.

Dave

The only foolish thing that went on here was the embarrassment caused to Ireland by a bunch of antagonists. I did not elect myself judge and jury on future events involving Irish consular assistance. What I did say is that they, the group who breached international law, playing unto their martyrdom personas should not benefit any consular assistance.

As i said, consular assistance is wasted on people like this. Anyway, there story does not tally with the diplomatic representative in Israel. According to the Irish authorities they are being treated well. This crowd are crying wolf, while similarly describing the IDF boats as warships. So the intervention of the Irish consulate has not been of benefit because he did not dance to their tune of their well embellished hysteria.

If you’re happy to squander money on this type of behaviour then fund it privately Dave. I as a tax payer do not.

Illegal immigrants to where? If Gaza isn’t a part of Israel then…

Great again Dermot :-)

Well said!

Is it fair to say that 90% of them have no clue about the situation? That’s a bit of a hasty generalisation there.. Perhaps they are clued in, just because someone plays rugby doesn’t mean that they can’t take an interest in the world around them.. We do not know and it would be unfair and illogical for us to assume.

Yes.. It gets media attention. And yes, both sides have plenty of blame hanging around their necks. But the blockade was what was being protested, the aim was raising awareness – on that front it has been a success.. Even if the aid itself has not been (either because of the amount, whether it’s in date [as I discussed with Barry last night, sadly we have a bad habit of calling gone off medicine "aid" in the Western World] or whether it will actually get there [as another poster stated last night that feet on the ground in Palestine cannot corroborate that the aid is in fact passed on]) in this respect that flotilla may very well have been a failure.

Here Here

I can absolutely guarantee you this particular rugby player hasn’t a bulls notion what he’s on about, but decided he d do a tv ad for it at the same time. I take your point but the whole debate is completely one sided and unbalanced but yet we still have the do gooders jumping on the bandwagon / flotilla. Anyway I’m not trying to start an argument, cause I’m bored of it already! If some d4 heads want to feel like members of the un I suppose it’s their own business, just don’t be dragging the Irish nation into your “mission” with you, represent yourself, not a nation please!

Shanti,

The Egyptian restrictions are a major source of resentment to Gazans but none of these campaigners seem remotely interested in this. They only want to have a go at Israel.

Ciaran, I asked this on the other page, but was the Egyptian blockade not put in place by Mubarak? Because as soon as he was toppled the Egyptians lessened the control on their border (not an outright lift of the blockade, but a step in that direction), for this they got much criticism from the US and Israel..

I do agree with you though, all of the blockade should be highlighted.

Very well said, Diarmaid Twomey.

They re-imposed restrictions in the last week of October according to one article I read and the Rafah crossing is completely sealed at the moment during the Eid holiday – this while other Egyptian borders only close for one day.

Due to ties between the Islamic Brotherhood and Hamas, Egypt has its own very particular reasons for keeping a tight grip on its Gazan border. Whether those reasons are entirely valid is not for me to say but it’s bizarre for us to be discussing the rights and wrongs of the Israeli blockade while ignoring Egypt’s blockade.

Agreed Ciaran. The blockade in general is an issue – regardless of who is imposing it. Surely there must be more that can be done with negotiations? I realise that getting everyone around the same table is proving difficult, but there have been negative actions on either side which perhaps a more neutral middle man than the US (or any of the less impartial countries) could help with?