Less Moderate?? Can you tell us their names please ?

It’s confusing me as well Ciaran, I don’t understand why they were in court either. It’s not like they wanted to go into Israel in the first place and in fact entered against their will. It’s almost like the police grabbing you on the street, throwing you into a house and then arresting you for trespassing!

Here here, Jackass Ireland.

Ditto. Keep them all..

speak for yourself

Exactly, Waffler. What the hell is Chris Andrews doing out there anyway ? His own country has many problems of its own that his own party created. And, Michael Martin getting in his tuppence worth in to get some street cred. Would ya ever ??!!! Eire’s problems need to be fixed. Let the Israelis & Palestinians work theirs out for themselves & for us to mind our own business. There is nothing like this topic to bring out the worst kind of prejudice & intolerance in people towards the Jewish state. If such votriol was aimed at a black African state for example, the bleeding heart do-gooders would have us all branded as “racists”. Israel has a right to defend itself & has every reason to do so. The West is truely radicalised in favour of Islam, I feel. Balance, fairness & justness has gone out the window & the voices of reasonable & rational Arabs & Jews are not being heard on the international stage.

Please do not even begin to attempt to conflate a critical stance on Israel’s callous military tactics with anti-Semitism.

Israel has a right to defend itself by legitimate means. When the means become cruel, ineffective and probably illegal, it’s proper that attention is drawn to the fact.

I am not trying to blend or fuse any point to anti Semitism, Niall. I made my point & how others interpret it is up to the individual.

There is nothing like this topic to bring out the worst kind of prejudice & intolerance in people towards the Jewish state. If such votriol was aimed at a black African state for example, the bleeding heart do-gooders would have us all branded as “racists”.

Don’t think it takes much interpretation, Declan.

Declan – how is the west radicalised in favour of Islam? We hear daily of “Muslim (extremist) Terrorists” and in news reporting the “extremist” seems to be optional.. This is basic programming, associating the word Muslim with Terrorist.

America launched a “war on terror” which was in effect a war on the Arab world – calling it the “war in terror” deliberately forces the association between Islam and terror.

I’m sorry, apart from some here I do not see any favour granted to Islam. I see school kids on the number 4 recoiling in horror and blessing themselves when they see a Muslim lady get on the Bus at DCU. I see all Muslims being tarred with the same brush as some extremists..

I’m afraid I do not see this great favour towards Islam that you speak of..

(and ps, anti Arab sentiment, which many conflate with Islam, is also anti Semitic.. But it’s rare enough you hear the Muslim bashers called Anti Semites..)

It does, Niall. We are talking about Israel in this news story. I made the comparison with other countries to back my point. Israel, like Ireland, is not perfect. Granted. However, the mere mention of Israel & balance & fairness go out the window. Anyway – it seems we will agree to disagree. Have a nice day & banter back & forth another time. Slainte 4 now.

Shanti Om – I remember the 1st time I visited London way back in 1984. I flew over & hoped to book into a B&B & take it from there. I was refused in the 1st 2 places I went to. I put this down because I was Irish & the IRA campaign was at it’s height then. The 3rd place I went to, I got B&B in a place run by an Indian woman. I was tarnished with the same brush as IRA terrorists & put in the same category because of my thick Irish accent ( which stands out when abroad ). It was hurtful but I tried to look at it from an English person’s point of view. Not all Irish are IRA or Loyalist loving sympathisers as equally as not all Muslims hate non Muslims. Stands to reason. As I experienced discrimination way back then because of where I came from, I do understand what it feels like to be on receiving end. One way to change that is to get to know people, chat & take it from there. It is sad to hear of your experiences on the bus & sadly that is life. It’s by each of us making an effort to get to know each other & getting on that progress is made. Re Israel & the Palestinians – let them get on with it & let them make their progress at their own pace. I imagine & I’d say I’m right when I say that many Israelis & Palestinians “are” friends.

If this comes up twice I apologise – my app crashed and I don’t know if it posted or not..

But I agree with you Declan.. I would say most Israeli and Palestinian people could live in peace, were it not for their leaders (who may or may not be psychopaths).

Regardless of religion, race, gender etc we are all people. But as people some will lead and others will follow.. It all depends who you are following.

I don’t agree with anyone who feels that violence is ever the answer to anything, regardless of what ideology they are spouting.

Exactly, Shante Om. Enjoy your evening.

The same to you Declan :)

Chris Andrews is no longer a TD and therefore no longer has to serve his former constituents. He is free to help represent any person he wishes, including the oppressed people of Palestine and those of us who sympathise with their suffering.

Deputy Martin is a former minister for foreign affairs, a good friend of Chris Andrews’ not to mention the leader of Andrews’ political party. Offering him his public support is the least he can do, and he is now able to voice opinions that he could not express for diplomatic reasons, while he was a government minister.

It might be something to do with Israels picking and choosing of UN reports and mandates Mark. There has been a lot of comment from an Israeli perspective about the legality of the blockade citing the UN. Yet Israel ignores any other UN report or resolution that doesn’t go Israels way. I think people have now come to the view that you can’t run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

Part of that problem Brian is that people fail to distinguish between different types of Resolution, particularly those emanating from the ludicrous UNHRC with its built-in anti-Israel bias.Anyway,with respect, the Palmer Report stands on its own merits and shouldn’t be disregarded simply because supporters of Israel welcome most of its conclusions.Any statement or report that refers to the “illegality” of the blockade without acknowledging the Palmer findings is tainted.

I fully accept the Palmer Report Charles even though I think it is flawed as it seemed to be more about politics and keeping Turkey and Israel on side than anything else. My point is that Israeli supporters are picking and choosing the UN reports etc. that suit them. As you said yourself,” people fail to distinguish between the different types of Resolution.” Perhaps I’m just being my natural cynical self and misinterpreting what you are saying but to me that comes across as, there are those Resolutions that suit us and those that don’t and we only take any notice of the ones we want to. For instance , UN Palmer report good- ” ludicrous UNHRC with its built-in anti-Israel bias” Resolution’s” bad. Like I say perhaps I have read what you are saying wrong and if so I apologize in advance however I do think that this is the line of thinking that successive Israeli Governments have taken.

Charles, I don’t believe that UNHRC is in any way biased against Israel, the reason that they’re criticised so often is that they’re serial human rights abusers.

Any article mentioning the Palmer Report would also do well to mention UN Resolution 2011/41, which calls upon the blockade to be lifted, citing the humanitarian consequences. Yet another resolution, that Israel has ignored.

It’s interesting how the pro-Israeli lobby veer from respecting the UN and international law to criticising and ignoring as and when it suits them.

http://www.un.org/en/ecosoc/docs/2011/res%202011.41.pdf

“Gravely concerned at various reports of the United Nations and specialized agencies regarding the substantial aid dependency caused by prolonged border closures, inordinate rates of unemployment, widespread poverty and severe humanitarian hardships, including food insecurity and rising health-related problems, including high levels of malnutrition, among the Palestinian people, especially children, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem,

Expressing grave concern at the deaths and injuries caused to civilians, including children, women and peaceful demonstrators, and emphasizing that the Palestinian civilian population must be protected in accordance with international humanitarian law, “

Excuse the late reply. This was a working day for me. The anti-Israel bias of the UNHRC is indisputable. It might be explicable if Israel was clearly the World’s worst human rights abuser but it isn’t even close. And the Palmer Report is a crucial part of any debate about the naval blockade and a failure to mention its conclusions in any article about the issue is lamentable. Of course other Resolutions and Reports are part of the story and can be deployed and debated on their particular merits but suppressing Palmer is just further proof of the deep-rooted bias against Israel in most Irish public discourse.

I did read it, it confuses me.

On the one hand, you take a secular stance.

On the other you single out Islam for particular criticism, and Judaism for particular praise. For clarity’s sake, I’m not necessarily saying that you’re bigoted, I am saying that it’s a dangerously bigoted argument.

In any event, I don’t think it’s relevant to the topic at hand. The blockade as a military tactic is illegitimate, and the starvation of children is abhorrent, so let’s take this one step at a time. Lift the blockade first of all, as a matter of basic human decency, and an issue of fundamental human rights.

Niall, I think they should try to somehow to lift the blockade – perhaps at least in stages. Where I would differ is the exclusive focus the majority here seem to put on the blockade while they completely ignore the missile attacks.

The hope would be that when the blockade is lifted, the missile attacks would cease and then Israelis and Gazans could go on about their lives. But I think it’s a forlorn hope because no-one really has control of Gaza and even if Hamas were to agree to cease their attacks, there are other militants group who would be likely to continue. Also, the coast would be open to allow the importation of God-knows-what materiel from Iran that could pose huge risks for Israel.

People need to understand that there is a big difference between Fatah and Hamas. Fatah wants a Palestinian state. Hamas wants to use this Palestinian cause as a weapon to achieve its ultimate aim: the destruction of Israel.

Ciarán, I’m glad we can agree on that.

What happens afterwards is another question entirely, but this blockade cannot be justified.

Again, I would hope that Israel’s multi-billion military machine should be able to come up with tactics for dealing with the rockets, and with Hamas, that don’t inflict starvation on innocent children.

Niall firstly we need to clarify a few things. Supporting the right of the Jewish people to have a homeland does not mean supporting the fairytale that is the religion of Judaism. That would be like saying people shouldnt support Ireland because we once believed in things like the banshee and fairy rings and that children would drown in a puddle of water on wit sunday or that wearing a scapular would drive away bad luck. The Jews were the group of people who 4000 years ago wrote the fairytales that started off the Judeochristian tradition.But tribes evolve and now of the majority of Jews like their former European Chistian counterparts have left the belief in these things but have kept their culture eg Hebrew etc. Presuming Jews are religious is as prejudiced as presuming someone is Catholic because they are Irish just because our ancestors were. Secondly saying I am one sided is false I also support the right of the Arab culture to a homeland. But when you say that I should be evenly critical of even majority religious jews as I am of the threat of militant Islam thats nuts. While the ultra orthodox Jews are everybit as crazy as militant Islamists the Israeli govt and even mainstream Jews have reigned them in. Thirdly if this has nothing to do with religion why are Islamists from all over the muslim world citing this as a grievence. The left here like to make a comparison with northern ireland. That would be like Ian Paisley summoning the protestants from Germany Austria and the Nordic countries to come fight the southern Catholics. Shit like that hasnt happened in Europe since the dark ages when religion ruled as it does in middle east. Finally if israel gave free reign to Palestinians without an agreed settlement their people would suffer. Yes israel can act OTT but that is a natural response to being constantly under siege. The international community needs to give them confidence they are safe and the arab world needs to move their watch forward 1400 years. Then I gaurantee you will see Israelis arent the bogeyman leftists portray them as.

Dude, don’t take this the wrong way, but I find your posts really difficult to read – paragraphs would be good. Not being a smart arse in the slightest here, I think I often miss the point of what you’re saying because I find it difficult to skim through big blocks of text.

I don’t see Israelis as bogeymen in the slightest, though. I would have misgivings about the foundation of the state of Israel as a “Jewish state” rather than a pluralist democracy, but that’s done now, we have to deal with the circumstances as they are. The state of Israel has the right to exist peacefully, I would never begin to question this. Not for one second trying to describe Israel as a theocracy, either, or anything like it.

I do take the point on Israel’s feeling under siege, not without just cause, but actions like this blockade only provide ammunition for the genuinely anti-Semitic demagogues out there – whatever about the extremist crazies, I see this kind of thing as establishing casus beli to bring more moderate Arabs and Muslims in to the fold, yet another reason why the blockade could be lifted.

I do wonder whether a national sense of victimhood, again not unjustified, plays into this – I think Saul Bellow’s novel “The Victim” captures this brilliantly, the narrator is plagued and harassed by another man throughout the novel, with Bellow slowly revealing that the “victim” in question is not the narrator himself, but the antagonist, who is consumed by a slight inflicted by the narrator many years ago. That’s a terrible description, but it’s a great read.

Niall my big paragraphs are because I typed on my phone.
Again you bought up the Jewish vs secular State. Being a Jewish and secular State are compatible. We have been through this,

Now as for Jews playing the victim what about the holocaust, European pograms and antisemitic rants of the majority of the leaders of Arab States? All in their head right just another Zionist plot? If you made any more insane an argument you could give Mahmoud Ahmadinejad a run for his money in becoming the next president of Iran.

There will not be peace if Israel pulled out of Gaza. This is a more probable scenario. The radical Islamic clerics would see it as a sign from god that Israel was ready for destruction. They would be more attacks on the Israeli people and they would get rid of their government and elect an even more hardline one. This is what any society will do when they are under siege. They are not monsters because they do this and peace will not occur until the international community convince the Islamic world that their holy books are not worth killing for or evening imposing any law based upon them and allow open dessent and free speech.

Again, wasn’t being smart in the slightest, you seem like a reasonable guy and I kinda suspect that I’ve missed the subtleties of what you’re saying by skimming over big blocks of text.

I’m not saying that Jews in any way “play the victim”, far from it, they have good reason to feel victimised. But the psychology of victimhood is complex – Bellow, a Jewish writer, captures something profound about it, it really is a great read.

In my experience, the religious crazies are always in a tiny minority, but they can gain traction when economic and political circumstances are bad. Simply put, if people can live a life without want and with dignity, it’s quite difficult to motivate them to jeopardise their comfortable lives by attacking their neighbours.

Actions like the blockade, though, do provide tangible ammunition for the crazies to persuade more moderate elements that Israel is in fact the “Satan” they’ve been making it out to be. In the long run, I think Israel would be better served by taking a more humane approach towards the Palestinians, that’s really my point.

I gave u a thumbs up for your last contribution to this section, Niall. Ain’t life full of surprises !!!! Whoo-Hoo !! I agree when u say “religious crazies are always in the minority ……”. That is very true. I’ll check Eason’s tomorrow for that book, “The Victim”. Off for a pint now. Slainte.

Niall you are right that yes Islamists will use the blockade as an excuse but even if they lift it, the Islamists will then make another excuse and see the opening as gods will to attack the great Satan. They will see it as a weakness on the part of the enemy. This might seem like warped logic on the part of me as it is entirely counter intuitive for europeans to think that way. You and me would say well they have given something so I must give something back. Appeasing makes someone look nice and reasonable in the western world. It doesnt work like that in the Islamic world when they have religious motivation. The hard evidence for this is the Nordic countries where vast cultural concessions were granted to Muslim immigrants. Now they have a real problem and are starting to row back on concessions.

While the majority of religious people are good people and mean no harm the fact that they are promoting delusion and books which contain mainly violent prejudice it will inevitable result in violence and oppression, It did in dark age europe before free speech and enlightenment eroded its power. This has not yet happened in the Islamic world.

Thirdly a society that has been through what Israel has will find it extremely difficult to make more positive gestures where former Irish terrorists are meeting the leaders of Hamas a terrorist group thats primary objective is not the welfare of the people of Gaza but the destruction of Israel.

Just one or two thoughts at random from in there..

I read an article (I really wish I could remember where now) about President Ahmajinidad (did I spell that correctly?)..
It said that in Iran the office of president is kinda like ours in that it holds no real power. The true power is 8 other guys.. It also said that in Iran Ahmajinidad was largely regarded as a bit of a looper..
I just wish I could remember where I had seen it, as I would link it here for your consideration.

I agree the Arab world needs to wind their watches forward a bit. I have said a few times that while we have had the benefit of democracy and civil movements, the majority of the Arab world has lived a very different story – which I would feel has stifled their development.. If we look to history – as Cyril (?) has, these crazy sorts of ideologies existed here too, look at the behaviour of the Church! But we have moved on in our thinking, we have had revolutions and changed.. The Arab world needs a chance to catch up, many parts have – but they are in pockets rather than on the whole.

My last thought may come off a bit “leftie” for you, but hear me out.. With regards the comment about Irish Terrorists talking to the Palestinians.. Is the example of a terrorist who has dropped their crazed and violent ideals and decided to follow a more civilised and democratic principle not a step in the right direction? Like Ex Heroin addicts giving support to recovering ones – showing them that they have tried this route and there is a better way?
I suppose it depends on which perspective you view it from, obviously it can be seen in a negative light too, I am just offering an alternative viewpoint..

Shanti you are right that it is a move in the right direction for Sinn Feinn and the IRA to abandon violence. They should get praise for it but the fact that former terrorists were more than likely going to engage Hamas would spook even the most moderate Israeli. How this could do anything to influence Israel to act more constructively is beyond me. Its pure one sided propaganda. Most sane people want the State of Israel to exist and the conditions for everyone to improve. This cant happen by leftie one sided propaganda.

Perspective difference I suppose.. People can have long memories when they choose to.. Yes, these guys have a past – but they also have a more recent past which has been far more positive – it shows that people can find peace and move on to something constructive.

But I agree, these people are not exactly showing neutrality in the situation and so are not conducive to establishing peace (by the same token – neither are the states..)

Egypt is in the process of changing – the blockade was imposed initially by Mubarak was it not?

What are you on about, genital mutilation? Where, Gaza, the Occupied Territories? Females are on a par with males in school and literacy. Really Cyril, where are you getting your ideas from?

Spot on there Brian

yes brian but only while theyre occupied

So what you are saying Waffler is that if Israel pulls out of the Occupied Territories today, every woman in the OT’s stands the risk of FMG! You know, I have heard some insane musings in my time but that is way out beyond anything that I have heard for quite a long time. http://www.unicef.org/protection/57929_58002.html FMG is not mentioned in the Koran and is a social not religious practice as opposed to male genital mutilation as practiced by some other faith and traditions.

Brian while you are right that in Palestine the law in theory grants equal access to education, however in the Arab and Islamic world in general it is normal and acceptable to deny girls access to education. As you said yourself the problem extends beyond Palestine as all the Islamic world are as one in vying for the demise of Israel. Womens rights are deplorable in this region as an overall collective. When a society treats their women like Chattel their societies become impoverished and vulnerable to religious and political mind control. Why is their an Arab spring and not an Israeli spring? Why is it that this region elected corrupt despot one after another? Israel are in the firing line of these regiemes. The Islamic religion and the regional culture do not value womens rights. This is in complete contrast to a largely secular and rational Israel. And as for female genital mutilation in the Palestinian terroritery yes it is still carried out. I have always said I agree there are legitimate questions Israel need to answer and find a more humane way to deal with this but this is in the context of being surrounded by 7th century religious hoards that want it wiped out.
Here are two links you may wish to look at. .

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=180

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3130234.stm

Brian is this an example of a society that is willing to live in the 21st century or is it an example of an ignorant backward tribal barbarity? Tell me this just how can a society that is capable of doing this act as an honest peace broker let alone be intellectually capable of governing themselves? I could give you similar examples of other countries in the Arab world with even worse records.

http://legalheresy.blogspot.com/2010/11/blogger-in-palestine-in-arrested-for.html

Hi Brian. I see that you continue using the term ‘Occupied Territories’. I don’t know if you are also still using the term ‘illegal settlements’? You either did not read what I sent you a couple of months ago or you are in denial of it.
I have wrote then:
The essence of all this lies in the San Remo agreements of 1920 and 1922. According to San Remo, Israel and its territorial lands, was and is a place for the Jews to live in. Just like Sweden is for the Swedes and not for the Chinese. San Remo also said that local Arabs can live in that area (Palestine) as well and that those local Arabs will have their civil and religious rights protected. However, San Remo does NOT speak about political rights, autonomy or independence for those local (Palestinian) Arabs within that area then called Palestine. This is a fact that many people nowadays want to ignore.
So I mentioned the rights of the Jews. But another decision was made also for the rights of the Arabs, during the same San Remo agreements, to establish many Arab countries where Arabs can have their own autonomy and independence as well. That was promised to the Arabs during those agreements and that was also executed. Just like what was promised to the Jews back then, something that was also executed.

Many years later, in 1945, the United Nations was founded. However, the UN did NOT develop a trusteeship system for the British Mandate of Palestine. As a result, the provisions and purposes of San Remo cannot be overruled – nobody has the actual legal authority to do so!

Also, what many people do not realise (or do not know) is that the United Nations General Assembly and – in most cases – the International Court of Justice have advisory powers ONLY. These bodies CANNOT take away the right of individual countries to exercise their sovereignty and their free will. This is very fundamental. Many people think that the UN is some kind of a powerful world government but that is not true at all. It is mainly an administrative organization.

Another thing is the FACT that the Palestinian Authority did not exist prior to the Oslo accords of 1993. It therefore CANNOT claim that its territories are ‘occupied’ by Israel. The same is true for the PLO: it exists since 1964 but it was never the legal owner of any lands. Starting from 1948, when the British left the area they called Palestine, the ONLY LEGAL OWNER of all the lands of Israel including Judea and Samaria (or what the Jordanians called the West Bank) is the State of Israel.

I hope that this now clarifies the issue for you.
Regards, Dani

That is what I sent you a couple of months ago.
Regards,
Dani

Cyril, all of your arguments seem to be premised on how “barbaric” the Muslims/Palestinians are and how “civilised” the Jews/Israelis are.

Firstly, do you not think that there’s something dangerously bigoted in that line of reasoning.

Secondly, even taking the Palestinians at their lowest by your estimation, they’re still human beings, whose rights must be respected. If there’s an FGM issue in Palestine, then it should be dealt with as a rights issue, as it is elsewhere in the world.

Nothing can justify intentionally subjecting innocent children to starvation as a military tactic. Nothing.

Hi Dani, I did get your message thanks. The reason that I referred to the area as the Occupied Territories is because that is what the UN and UNICEF refers to them as. I know there is a lot of ambiguity as to the name of the areas so I just go with what ever someone refers to them as.

Just while you were saying that they should not teach their kids that the Jews are agents of Satan (I agree, they shouldn’t teach that sort of intolerant nonsense). I have had arguments with Bible thumping Christians who insist that Allah is Satan, and that all Muslims are in fact Satanists..

Just saying.. They might not be the only ones making those sorts of crazy statements.. After all, when your religion is insistent that it is the only true path these sorts of statements are inevitable..

March 12, 1947 British military units captured most of the 800 Jews whose motor ship “Susanne” ran the British blockade and was beached north of Gaza on this date. Ironic isn’t it that history is repeating itself!

Spot the linguistic programming..

“Palestinian Terrorists”. “Hamas terrorists”.
Interesting, as not every country views Hamas as a terrorist organisation. Indicating that this article (which does not provide any indication as to where it was sourced from) is most certainly from one of the countries that do as opposed to the ones who don’t.

None of this means that I support Hamas, I am merely pointing out the grammar which shows this articles inherent bias..

Shanti.

Programming???

Run along there now and hide behind your twitter page. SPOUTING Neutri Karta rubbish.

“Run along there now and hide behind your twitter page”
dont be daft barry
any clown can set up a facebook page.
are u really barry williams?
whether r not u are is irrelevant.

peoples posts speak for themselves.

Joseph. You keep it at that level there. mate.I’ve no need or desire to go there. BYE

well, thats a crap out if ever i heard one.
ta ra

Again Barry. Ad hominem attack. Straw Man. Appeal to ridicule, and Guilt by Association.
I was speaking about the mechanics of language and how it can be used to infer a specific bias. This is the basics of the Trivium Method. All things should be read first to check the grammar (as I just did) then the logic (eg, root outthe fallacies, i have pointed out 4 in your rsponse) then the rhetoric. After checking the argument for all of these things one can ascertain whether or not the piece is in fact valid.

Again.. I referred to a group that is NOT the NK, nor the Satmar (in another argument – not this one) but you insist on putting this guilt by association fallacy forth..

ShaNTI are you telling me. The Website JewsnotZionists is not N.K??

Barry read WHY I have referred to them. I have told you twice now.
They say themselves on the site that not all Jewish opposition to Zionism comes from the NK or Satmar – this does insinuate that they are a different group. But if you want to use that fallacy (appeal to authority, guilt by association, ad hominem tu quoque – take your pick) go right ahead..

What makes you despise the concept of it?

because its founded on fairytales

It’s a small area conflict that has a huge bearing on a much larger geo-political problem.

Brian, you could say that about the oppression of Kurds, the genocide in Darfur, the persecution of Shia in the Gulf region, the ongoing Alawite-Sunni civil war in Syria**…..

** that’s what this “pro-democracy uprising” really is.

None of which in any way goes to justify Israel’s reprehensible blockade, or to denigrate the suffering of the Palestinian people as a consequence.

Whataboutery is no use here – the subject is Palestine and the humanitarian consequences of the blockade.