NO AID ON THE SHIP! This was a blockade breaking political effort not a humanitarian mission.
‘No humanitarian aid found onboard Gaza flotilla’ http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4143893,00.html

Israel has no embargo on medical/ humanitarian aid. The irony is that had the ship been carrying aid and not just a cargo of publicity seeking Irishmen Israel would have delivered it along with the tons of aid/permitted materials it allows to be trucked in every day.

With respect, I’m happy to wait for that report to be objectively verified.

In the interim, I would like to draw your attention to the UN Resolution 2011/41, which cites severe humanitarian consequences of the Israeli blockade.

http://www.un.org/en/ecosoc/docs/2011/res%202011.41.pdf

@David, well they obviously didn’t look very hard did they?

http://www.tahrir.ca/content/medical-supplies-gaza-tahrir-labeled-food-stuff-board

To Larry O’Connor.
Ridiculous attempt to finesse their way out of an extremely damaging revelation. Pull the other leg.

Firstly, Why would they do that? What purpose would be served? Medical supplies enter Gaza freely every day and in much greater quantity than this boat could carry even if it wasn’t carry arrogant, publicity seeking clowns.

Secondly, hiding the medicines almost guaranteed improper storage and transport so if it ever reached Gaza it would be useless. For example, the entire medical component of George Galloway’s ‘convoy’ was land-filled by the Palestinians, for this reason.

Lastly, the Israelis were looking for contraband, especially weapons. I doubt Crime Scene Investigators would do a more thorough search. No box unopened

But David,
The article you refer to was deliberately misleading. It does not stand up to scrutiny (I have explained why elsewhere)
Larrys’ link is from the ship themselves and do I can appreciate why you may dismiss that, but truthfully, your sources are no more credible.

I see Emer chose to ignore a major fact the UN Palmer report found the Naval blockade of Gaza. LEGAL. Not illegal. So the hysteric we hear on here about being illegal is false.
The blockade is there for a reason. Maybe people should start asking why?
And what are Gazans doing to achieve a situation where they can work with Israel to ensure a ceasefire and an end to the blockade.

If they wanted they could have brought the aid through the land crossing

Ynet news a very hardcore left wing Israeli newspaper is claiming.There was no aid on board the boats.I’d be interested to hear is this true.It cost 140,000 to repair the boat.How much school equipment could they have brought over the border like the Turks and Jordanians do weekly

Ynet article

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4144054,00.html

Piracy can only be committed by private parties and not States apparently.

The organisers themselves have said that the aid is worth about $30,000 in hard to get medicines and that the flotilla is more about raising awareness than aid. The previous flotillas were about aid and by being a thorn in the side of Israel more aid is now getting through.

I do find it funny that anyone who is pro-Israeli has now been converted to the UN view when it suits them. Perhaps now that Israel likes the UN maybe they will enforce all the other UN mandates and reports that they have ignored!

Awareness ?? What choice words. Well done. You’d make an excellent spin doctor.

Hitler. Really. Come on you can come up with better shit than that.

Classy. Get the oul’ Hitler reference in.

Barry that article starts with the headline along the lines of: “no humanitarian aid on ships for Gaza”
Then in the sub header this is reinforced.

Then the entire article is about engagement and how well the IDF behaved, how the protestors were not aggressive and no weapons were found on board.
The only other reference to the humanitarian aid is along the lines of “they say they have medicine” but it is neither confirmed nor denied in the body of the article.

It then moves onto insinuations about the protestors motives..

Surely if there were no aid at all it would be bigger news and the whole article would have focused on it? there would be no need for ad hominem attacks on the protestors as the lack of aid would speak for itself?

Or maybe it was using the headline to plant the idea subtly without anything to back it up..

That is clear propaganda. When you actually read it the article and the headline do not match up..

Shanti. The last time medical equipment was brought to Gaza.Hamas refused it. As it was out of date.
I hope this is not the same.

Barry, that was last time. Now this time you post an article saying there was none – but the article does not stand up to critical thinking..
Your reply has nothing to do with this incident, merely offers up a similar but unrelated argument.. A logical fallacy..

Are you conceding now that medicine may have been on board?

As for medical aid being out of date, that’s nothing new.. The medical aid sent to many developing nations is hand me down medicine..

Which Hamas refused.

They were asked in the video above. What cargo do you have. They said NONE.
The flotilla during the summer had rugby balls. No sorry but if Gaza is on its knees starving surely they’d fill every last inch with aid.
I’m not there.Nor are you. I’m sure we will read in time how much “aid” was brought in on the Med yachts.

Well, that may be because really, we shouldnt be sending them gone off medicine, but we send it to many countries – that in itself I take issue with, and in reality they should take fresh medicine with them – or better than that some agricultural scientists and engineers to help the people become self sufficient, rather than out of date medicine or poor quality food (and that goes for all developing nations, not just Gaza, but I digress). Considering gone off medicine could prove harmful this may show some will of Hamas to protect their people.

The true problem there is with what we term aid, that part is not necessarily the protestors fault – it happens with government aid programmes too. The reason being that drugs in those amounts cost a ridiculous amount, and our governments have stockpiles of unused drugs.. Rather than spend an alarming amount on new drugs that we don’t benefit from, we just use developing nations as a drugs waste facility.. Which is in itself horrendous, but symptomatic of a far larger problem than this particular group.

They obviously didn’t look very hard for the aid:

http://www.tahrir.ca/content/medical-supplies-gaza-tahrir-labeled-food-stuff-board

That’s wonderful Harvey, calling me ignorant of the Israeli Palastinians conflict and coming out with horse shit about if we don’t learn from history we repeat it. Where do you come up with these hackneyed cliches that have nothing to do with the discussion. The Arabs have a different culture then the Jews, don’t dismiss it or demean it.

Sorry Harvey, failed to note your swing at me for being anti Semitic with your prejudice comment, nice touch, however, beware of overplaying that card, it gets tiresome. Use legitimate arguments to get your point across, it works better that way.

Paula. The UN found the Naval blockade legal. So how come you call it illegal?? Check out the Palmer report.
As I’d hate for us “Fascists” to be accused of giving you false information.

The same UN that called upon Israel to end the blockade:

http://www.un.org/en/ecosoc/docs/2011/res%202011.41.pdf

“Gravely concerned at various reports of the United Nations and specialized agencies regarding the substantial aid dependency caused by prolonged border closures, inordinate rates of unemployment, widespread poverty and severe humanitarian hardships, including food insecurity and rising health-related
problems, including high levels of malnutrition, among the Palestinian people, especially children, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem,

Expressing grave concern at the deaths and injuries caused to civilians, including children, women and peaceful demonstrators, and emphasizing that the Palestinian civilian population must be protected in accordance with international humanitarian law, “

Yes.
Niall you seem to think I or anyone else enjoys seeing the blockade. Its by no means easy for the people of Gaza.
The facilities are there to send in triple what is currently entering Gaza,but who sets the restrictions for Imports ?? Hamas not Israel. If they wanted more they could have it.
Maybe for one second sit back and open your mind just a cm more and think.If Hamas let in everything which was needed and Gaza although still having a blockade had no crisis would they be able to get the international attention they do. They benefit from having the blockade.
While your at it. Why not think. WHY IS THE BLOCKADE THERE? Why did the UN find it legal ?
Why did 1 million Israeli’s spend last weekend in bomb shelters ?

No-one’s denying that Hamas pose a threat to the civilian population of Israel, but the blockade and border closures represent a totally disproportionate response.

Collective punishment, essentially, and unjustifiable.

And btw calling for it to end.Does not mean it still not illegal.
I too hope the blockade would end. I’d love to see it open, but when you have genocidal maniacs who celebrate and thrive on death. Whats the alternative. Hamas is not rational.
Israel has and can make peace.It can and has removed settlements. From the Sinai to Gaza. And it can do it again.It wishes to do it again. But meet half way. Where do you see Gazan’s protest against the rockets or Hamas aggression.Against anti Semitic school books or kids tv shows? Where’s the Gandhi in Palestine? There are thousands of pacifists and people who protests for peace in Israel.

“Where do you see Gazan’s protest against the rockets or Hamas aggression.”

What is this argument, other than whataboutery? You tell me.

The issue here is that the blockade and IDF action are imposing an intolerable and unjustifiable burden on Palestinian civilians. War crimes.

No-one’s saying that Hamas rockets don’t equally amount to war crimes, but if Hamas are still such an existential threat to Israel after a three year blockade, that points to the fact that this repression is ineffective, aside from contravening the Geneva Conventions, and being morally reprehensible.

Rocket attacks on 1 million civilians by Hamas is not collective punishment?
How do you suggest Israel halt the rocket attacks?

Are you telling me ending the blockade and they would not get more rockets and stockpile them to fire ? What happens then.They attack and Israel has Operation Cast lead round 2. More deaths and more violence?
Iran is a major player in all of this. Israel is not going to let Hamas become Hizbollah. Israel lost in 06 and now Hizbollah have more weapons than ever before. The UN was supposed to stop this but has utterly failed.

Its “whataboutery” because its convenient for you to brush it off as such. Fire ahead.

They are still a threat because they have smuggled vast weapons in through tunnels. That is why Egypt is building a underground deep wall. To try halt this.Where are these weapons coming from.
In the last few week.islamic Jihad has brought vast quantities in from Libya. That is why there has been an upscale in violence.

You have ignored the fact Gazan men have a longer life expectancy than men in Glasgow.That it is Hamas who sets the demands for what enters the strip . Or is that “whataboutery” too??

Digging a hole here, Barry.

“No-one’s saying that Hamas rockets don’t equally amount to war crimes”.

There are legitimate means of prosecuting armed conflict – attacking the civilian populace is not one of them. I would fully support Israel’s right to protect their people from Hamas, but placing the Palestinian civilian population under siege and starving their children isn’t a morally justifiable way of going achieving this.

And the UN has passed resolution after resolution in the attempt to resolve this conflict – I have no doubt but that UN boots would have been on the ground decades ago, had the US not vetoed any attempt to take substantive action.

You should stop talking for a moment and think about it.

Well said..

I lived in Israel for a while too … In the west bank, Christians are suffering at the hands of the IDF also. Freedom of movement etc … have you been ther ? I am glad you are worried about Christians so much. Please protest to your government about the plight of the Christians at the hands of the IDF in the westbank.

How many have left due to Islamic Extremism? Cal ? In your estimation what percentage?
Its funny you claim the IDF is ruining Christians lives. Do some research only one country in the entire Middle East has seen the number of Christians in its country increase and thats Israel. Every other Arab country has seen their christian communities shrink.
Look at what Islamic Extremists are doing in Egypt to the oldest Christian community in the world,Or is this also the IDF’s fault ??

Why if the Palestinians are so concerned about Christian rights are Christian book stores attacked in Gaza. Christian women adbucted and married off to muslim men.? Where is the ISM et al then ? Why have both Fatah and Hamas stated they wish to create an Islamic state .Not a secular muslim state. An ISLAMIC state. Have you criticised the PA and Fatah while you were in the “West Bank” for its lack of protection for Christians in the territories ?

@Barry, once more for slow learners … I lived in Ashqelon, mid-way between Ashdod and Gazza. I saw the rockets fired from Gazza. Its not nice living in that environment, but everyone knows you are many times more likely to be hit by a car than to be hit by a rocket. 2 detahs in the last 10 years… I asked you a straight question, and you didnt answer it … Have you been to Gazza, Westbank or East Jerusalem ?? If not, then how the hell do you know what the people suffer there? I can tell you, i saw the deprivation the Palestinian people suffer at the hands of the IDF (And when i say Palestinian, i mean Muslim and Christians alike). Its sickening. And you are on here arguing in support of this crime.

2 DEATHS??? Show the evidence please or this this another conclusion your jumping too?

I have and I have said 3 times I have been there. But your so busy accusing me of being Israeli and jumping to baseless accusations and then getting in a huff and swearing on the last page you clearly didn’t bother to read what I’d said.

I’d say that happens alot to you Cal does it?

You haven’t answered the man’s question, Barry.

Have you been to Gaza, the West Bank or East Jereusalem?

Your strident opinions would certainly suggest a degree of first-hand knowledge?

Cal…… not correct. Over 30 Israelis have been killed by these missile strikes in the last 10 years and hundreds have been injured. They cause huge disruption because they’re liable to land anywhere. Three per year might not seem like a huge death toll but what are the Israelis supposed to do? Sit around and shrug about it?

Well said. I dont support everything Israel does but there are alot of people who havent been there who follow leftist propaganda.

Ciarán, Cyril – three deaths per year justifies a blockade that, by one estimate, causes half of Gaza’s children to be malnourished? Without even mentioning the civilian victims of IDF action, and the other ravages of a state of siege on the population?

If that’s not disproportionate, I don’t know what is. There has to be a more humane way of dealing with this problem.

Niall I agree Israel should try and find a more humane way of dealing with the blockade if this can be done, but you have to realise if Israel did what all the leftists here wished them to do, they would be significantly more of their people killed. The Arab world want Israel wiped out. That is an everyday reality for Israeli voters and political leaders. We dont face that threat. This is why Israelis react so aggressively to any threat. And as religion precedes geopolitical systems it is religion that is to blame. Whether directly or indirectly whereby corrupt leaders use it as a tool to rally the gullible masses. Probably a bit of both. Either way it is entirely guilty. As for plantation, is it really that evil for the international community to grant a homeland to an ethnic group that were scattered and despised around the world and who lost millions of their people to the death camps? I do see the other side of the argument the displacement of people there but to portray them as village pillagers is a bit harsh. Religious have been displacing each other since time began and the Jews were originally displaced themselves. When I say Im pro Israel that means I see both sides of the argument as being legitimate but see the biggest obstacle to lasting peace being caused by Islamists not a lack of an Israeli desire for peace.

I don’t think this is a pro-Israel or anti-Israel argument – I think it’s about respect for basic human rights.

The blockade is a form of collective punishment, and as such is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and morally reprehensible. Its humanitarian consequences are indisputable.

The fact that Hamas retains the capacity to fire an alleged 40 rockets in the past week, albeit with no casualties, even under such circumstances, also shows it to be an ineffective strategy.

Unless, of course, the policy aims extend beyond limiting Hamas’ military capacity.

Whatever way you look at it, this blockade is a travesty, and should be lifted immediately.

@Nial Cal likes to run away with the old presumptions there.First he kept refering to me as Israeli.
I actually answered the question for hom over 4 times.
YES I have been there

The question isn’t whether you’ve been to Israel – got that from your previous post. Have you been to Gaza, the West Bank or East Jereusalem?

Oh give me patience. Seriously quit trolling.I’VE answered YES.

Ain’t trolling. What did you think of conditions there? Honestly?

East Jerusalem. Was a Jordanian creation, I was amazed Jews were banned frm entering the Dome of the Rock. Where muslims built a mosque on top of what was the second Jewish temple. Apart from that. I thaught to myself. How is Gods name are they actually going to ever be able to divided the city. The ancient Jewish quarter is in the so called ” East Jerusalem” the Western Wall is in “East Jerusalem” as is Mt Zion. The last time the Western Wall was in Arab control.Jews who approached it were killed. The Cemetry on Mt Zion was used by Jordanian soliders as a latrine.
I thaught Bethlehem was nice. But more Islamic than I expected.I was amazed to see pictures of “sucided bombers” all around the town. Celebrating their martyrdom. I took pictures to bring them home. but I found Ramallah amazingly well off, Full of NGO dollars.
I stayed in “East Jerusalem” in a Armenian hotel. They said most of their neighbours are moving to Western Jerusalem as they wish to remain in Israel with its healthcare,education and standards if East Jerusalem is redivided. This has been backed up by polls.

I was amazed a girl I met there who was Yemeni Israeli could not come to Bethlehem she said she’d be shot.I went with a British Hindu who’s surname was Matar. A Jewish surname and she was asked numerous time in the West Bank was she Jewish. I went clubbing in Tel Aviv with a bunch of Lesbian’s. Jewish-Arab couples. One of the Arabs works in a shelter aiding Palestinians who flee from Gaza and West Bank who are gay. I am friends with a Masorti Rabbi who’s foster son is a Muslim gay man from Ramallah. He got asylum in Israel. but moved to Sweden as his family eventually found him in Jerusalem.
Haifa is 50/50 Arab/Jewish and they mix well and are friends. Over 50 per cent of Israeli’s are decendant of Arab Jewish refugees. Islam is an offical recognised religion in Israel. Sharia courts are legal for family matters. Arabic is an offical language. The Islamic and Christian calenders are offical calenders in Israel. I was amazed by this.

As I had actually gone to Israel expecting to believe Israel was the big bad apartheid satan.I returned with a hugely different image of a people who genuinely want peace,

Interesting perspective, thanks for the reply. I’m mainly asking because my friends – including one particularly well known, very fair-minded, apolitical, human rights worker – have described Gaza in particular as being an area of indescribable squalor and suffering.

Now, if you could just refrain from accusing me of double standards without any reason, I’m sure we’ll get along just fine.

I stand by my point on the blockade, though.

@ Barry Williams – I liked your comment telling about your journey to Israel ending with “As I had actually gone to Israel expecting to believe Israel was the big bad apartheid satan.I returned with a hugely different image of a people who genuinely want peace.”

Agreed. The majority are just people, who want an end to all the bloodshed – on either side. There are some rather extreme views on either side and neither is completely fair to the other, both sides have done terrible things to one another.
But in order for peace to ever be achieved, the obstacles that need to be overcome are rather large indeed..

Trying to encourage either side to lay down their weapons at this stage would be next to impossible, the mistrust and hurt runs deep, and has fueled fear and propaganda on either side. It’s like a Mexican stand off at this stage..

Then there’s the whole religion issue, which sadly plays such a large role.. But it is easier for an outsider to say “put your faith to one side”, for many who have grown into a belief system this is much more difficult, and could be perceived as an unfair request..

In an ideal world they could all just sit round a table and agree a clean slate, but history has shown that there is no simple answer to this issue..
I just hope that we do not see history repeat itself..

Seeing as you so disrespectfully refer to Muslims God as their “sky daddy”, what about the Jewish “sky daddy” that gave them the promised land? Oh and by the way, all three religions believe in the same God just different versions of it.

Brian lest you think Im favouring one version of a sky daddy Im not. Just so we are absolutely clear the Jewish religion is probably even more backward than Islam long before Hitler ever came to power The old testament refered to a master race. Also in Jerusalem the Ultra Orthodox Jews make the muslims look sane. They believe Yahweh commands them move into the muslim quarters. This is as backward and ignorant as anything in the Islamic world. But my entire point is that the Jewish people as an ethnic group of people in the 21st century are far more civilised and likable and infinately more pragmatic than their neighbours. While not perfect they have managed to some degree to reign in their religious nuts. Present day Jews like Christians have really forgotten that their holy books are full of crazy shit unfortunately the Islamic people do look for a page by page instruction from their 7th century book of fairytales.

Perhaps Cyril, we need something like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Second_Coming_(TV_serial) it would certainly clear up a whole load of trouble in one go.

Thought you were a rationalist, Cyril? Why is a 7th century fairytale more detrimental than a 1st century or Talmudic fairytale?

Niall I have already answered that one. Please read the thread before you comment.

Niall you are making baseless presumptions about what being Jewish means. I am a proud rationalist and Atheist that is one of the main reasons I am pro Israel. They have one of the highest percentages of scientists per capita in the world while their neighbours are in the stone age. You seem to always think I support the Jewish religion, I have already said I dont. Being Jewish refers to a race of people as well as a belief system. One of the defining things about the Israeli people is their propensity to argue and debate without falling out and becoming enemies. Being an Atheist is entirely compatible with being culturally Jewish. Christopher Hitchens went one step further and declared that the Jewish people seem to have an “atheist gene” I stayed in Tel Aviv which is a modern secular city and openly argued my Atheism to the local people there. Far from being insulted one girl said that the fact I was prone to arguing made me more Israeli than themselves. Niall try doing that in Syria and I can gaurantee you wont be coming out of prison anytime soon. The fact that the Jewish culture has produced scientist after scientist including Einstein speaks volumes for its promotion of reason and critical thinking. Niall you are not being rationalist when you support things that traditionall people on the left who were secular also promoted. I am glad to leave the side many on the left in Ireland support because being rationalist means following evidence and promoting critical thought. Nothing you have said so far has done that. Ironically Christians who I constantly argue with make the best points on this issue.

I disagree with you about the principal cause – it’s not religion, but geopolitics.

I regard Israel as a plantation of religious zealots, designed to maintain a secure ally for the US in a sensitive, and largely hostile region of the world.

All this religious mumbo jumbo is only a smokescreen.

What nonsense Niall there has been Jews there for centuries.
Just shows how little you actually know.80 per cent of Israeli Jews are secular.
The first Zionists were actaully Socialists and most were Atheists. With little concern for the Jewish religion.

Plus 50 per cent of Israeli’s are actually from the original refugees kicked out of various arab countries. From Yemen,Iraq,Morocco and Libya mainly. They saught refuge in the new Israeli state. So they were hardly “planted”.

The vast majority of the Palestine Mandate was unhabitable. Very few people lived there.

If it has nothing to do with religion.Please explain why Hamas quotes Koranic quotes about driving the Jews off the land,About how Jews will hide behind rocks and trees and that the rocks and trees will tell muslims where the Jews are to kill them. Why do they speak about bringing the land into the Islamic Caphilate?
Seriously dude. Do some research.

And in fact when Israel was created the US was hugely unsure how to approach it, Russia was hugely friendly to Israel as Israel was a pretty much a socialist state. With May 1st being as big a holiday as some Jewish holidays.

If this “Jews had been there for centuries” line is heading towards “the long suffering chosen people have been rightfully restored to their promised land”, then please don’t bother.

Of course, the Zionist movement had been gaining strength since the 1880s, or even before, but if we’re talking about the foundation of the state of Israel, the McKenzie White Paper envisioned a secular, powersharing arrangement, but a US backed terrorist campaign led to the formation of a Jewish state. Similarly, the limited immigration envisaged under that document became in fact mass immigration, with the Arab population being sidelined and treated as second class citizens.

I have every respect for the left-wing tradition of many Jewish people, but I stand by my original point. As an aside, I don’t think that it’s proper for any state to endorse a particular religion, it can only lead to discrimination against adherents of other beliefs.

There was to be two states for two people.The Arabs refused and declared war and lost.
The Arabs refused the exact border which they are now saying they will create a Palestinian state, but its not a Palestinian state,but a 2 stage solution.
Stage 1. Palestine along 49 borders. Then Stage.2. Return refugees into Israel aka making Israel then a muslim majority state.

I don’t need to go down any road.There has been Middle Eastern Jews living in that area for centuries.History shows this and proves this. Much like history proves the Egyptians had pyramids.

The only limited immigration going on.Was sending Jews back to Europe to die under Hitler. by the British because the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem put alot of pressure on the Brits to do so. This was not enough.The Mufti Mr Husseni moved to Berlin to plead with Hitler to liquidate the land of the British Mandate free of Jews.

“Two states for two peoples” is not my understanding of what McKenzie envisaged. In any event, those plans were ripped to shreds by Zionist terrorism, backed by the US, and a Jewish state emerged, with the Jewish population being bolstered by mass immigration from all over the Middle East and North Africa, as well as Europe and the US.

I think these facts support my view that it’s a plantation.

One second now. Zionist Terrorism?
Who planted the Middle Eastern and North African Jews. ? Who made them refugees??

If you wish to go down that round. Then we could discuss the issue of the vast number of Palestinians not ever being Palestinian. Or viewing themselves as such until the 60′s. Most of them had Egyptian and Syrian surnames. Many were economic migrants who came to work on the new socialist Jewish farms. Some even travelling up as far as Sudan to come work on them. Were they a plantation too?

I think its foul of you to accuse those who fled the Holocaust to be part of some sort of plantation. You’ve clearly been overly influenced by friends without doing research.Next you’ll be telling us all.Jews are really Jews but Khazars and that the Zionist colluded with Hitler. YAWN. Heard it all before you hardcore anti Israel types are all the same. Its saturday night and I’ve more to be doing than sitting here reading your rubbish now.

As you said. You’ve your opinion.Ive mine. I don’t base them on what “friends” tell me. But regardless. Reply all you want. You can have the final say.It seem of vital importance to you.

Cyril,
The Jews would need to have an atheist gene, because the whole chosen race and violence against the non chosen ones originated in their own holy book..
In truth, any Jew, Christian or Muslim who does not follow their book to the letter could be termed as not really following their faith – the extremists are really only following what that group of books is selling.
And in that sense I agree with you, Religion (specifically these ones) are harmful. Anything that promotes the idea of superiority over your fellow man is dangerous.

As for the Arab world.. I do believe that the lack of democracy or civil recourse in this area of the world (as most have lived under dictatorships for so long) has stifled their development (and let’s not forget, the West played its’ own part in propping up these dictators). Here we have had the benefit of civil movements to gain equality and some semblance of fairness (we haven’t got it perfect ourselves), in the Arab world there has been no chance for this to be attained at the same level.

You can forgive them for thinking that the West is out to get them, if the few psychopaths leading the terrorist organisations has played on this feeling of being held back – by telling them the truth – that the West has sponsored their oppressors, on every side, exaggerate that a little and point to the IDF arsenal, the amount of deaths from the “War on Terror” (which implies in itself that the Arab world = Terror – some not so subtle programming there), and how the US acts as Israels strong arm at the UN.. It doesn’t justify any violence, but group mentality coupled with obvious injustices (that are exaggerated) will lead people down some crazy paths..

I don’t condone it, but I can understand the psychology behind it..

Shanti who told you that. The Homophobic Nateuri Katra you so much like to quote??
Judaism is the only Abrahamic faith which garuntees a place in “Heaven” for non Jews.

Could you quote one line of the Jewish religion which says Jews must use violence against non Jews. I can show many from the Koran. The Prophet Mohammed himself commited genocide in Khybar. Which is what they were jeering about on the Mavi Mara. Something along the line of “Yids don’t forget Khybar,Mohammeds army is coming”

BTW. 80 per cent of Israeli’s are non religious. So your talking out that backside of yours again mate.

Barry..
I refer you to the Kasztner libel case in Israel, specifically Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandel, Exhibit of the Defence, no. 36, State Attorney v. M. Grunwald, District Court, Jerusalem, CC124/53

This was a letter sent by a Rabbi in Poland begging the Zionist leaders to help them, it was one of many, as corroborated by Menachem Bader of the Jewish Agency under oath at the case, who said they received letters like this daily.

In it, the rabbi asks for whom they (the Zionists) are saving their money, (as apparently the Jews were offered safe passage into Spain or Portugal by Hitler, for 250DM per head on the condition that they may not go on to Palestine. But the answer was Palestine or nothing). For this reason a large number of Jews are opposed to Zionism, as they feel that this nationalism betrayed them, and contradicts everything that their faith stands for.

You can read the letter here; http://jewsnotzionists.org/pleasignored.html

Lookit, I think we’re done here.

One point I do need to make clear is that I don’t hold individual Israelis personally responsible for any of this, and I fully appreciate and respect their desire to flee Europe after everything that had happened, and the attractiveness of a Jewish homeland, in light of historical anti-Semitism.

The whole thing is a tragedy, and one that I fear will be playing out for generations to come. But it doesn’t help if the rest of the world turns its back and ignores or attempts to justify gross human rights abuses, by either side.

Ugh, last thing – when I say Zionist terrorism, I mean the campaigns by Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi against the British in the 40s. Nothing else.

Shanti.

Seriously. You keep quoting the Neutri Katra who are a radical number of Haredi Jews who are the most vilest homophobic group ever. They are like the Westboro Baptist Church of Judaism. So quote their links all you want.
They suit your agenda. Which sickens me.How so called left wing people will share stages with homophobes and those that treat women as second class citizens just as long as they are all singing from the same Israelphobic hymn sheet. Pathetic.

I live in a world. Where your enemy is not my friend just because he is your enemy.Maybe you should too.

The reason Jews were never allowed to go to the British Palestinian Mandate. “Not Palestine as you call it” as there never has been a sovereign Palestine state. Was because of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Husseni was close personal friends with Hitler and moved to Berlin.

As for Hitler offering the Jews safe passage to Spian. Bullshit Holocaust Denial. Now I’m off to enjoy myself.Couldn’t be bothered reading your links from Homophobes. Your holocaust denial and quasi facts by a nutty cult who earns a fortune being flown around the world from Iran to London to attend Holocaust denial conferences and anti israel protests.

1 When the LORD your God shall bring you into the land where you go to possess it, and shall cast out many nations before you, the Hittite, and the Girgashi, and the Amori, and the Kana`ani, and the Perizzi, and the Hivvi, and the Yevusi, seven nations greater and mightier than you; 2 and when the LORD your God shall deliver them up before you, and you shall strike them; then you shall utterly destroy them: you shall make no covenant with them, nor show mercy to them; 3 neither shall you make marriages with them; your daughter you shall not give to his son, nor his daughter shall you take to your son. 4 For he will turn away your son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and he will destroy you quickly. 5 But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their engraved images with fire. 6 For you are a holy people to the LORD your God: the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples who are on the face of the eretz. 7 The LORD didn’t set his love on you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all peoples: 8 but because the LORD loves you, and because he would keep the oath which he swore to your fathers, has the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, from the hand of Par`oh king of Mitzrayim. 9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, he is God, the faithful God, who keeps covenant and lovingkindness with them who love him and keep his mitzvot to a thousand generations,

There you go Barry.. Deuteronomy 7:1-9 Hebrew Names Version..

Utterly destroy the nations who are mightier than you, cast them out and show them no mercy, destroy their altars, kill or be killed, you were chosen above all other people by god himself..

It’s there in some shape or form in all of them.. And I don’t dispute that there is nasty stuff in the Koran also, after all, the root ideology is the same..

As I have said repeatidly. Israeli’s are hugely secular.
You keep hiding behind a twitter name spewing your holocaust revisionism

BTW. You quote Neutri Katra. all the time. They are the Jews who take the Torah litterly.So ask them. Is this what they believe when their Messiah comes will happen. As N.K believe Jews should not create Israel until the Messiah comes. Which they litterly believe will. So go ask your friends To explain the bible they take word for word.

Ugh.. Where does the homophobia they all share come from?

And also, your argument relies on an ad hominem attack – they’re homophobic so they must be bad.. They’re homophobic because they take their scriptures seriously – anyone who takes those scriptures seriously ends up that way.

As I said above, it’s a matter of perspective – you could say that unless you follow the rules in the book to the letter that you are not a true follower, in which case the Jewish state would not really be Jewish. Just a state inhabited by those of Jewish descent, who are less strict on the rules of their scripture (after all, a Jewish state would require that Talmudic law be enforced would it not?)

I don’t agree with homophobia, neither do I agree with the idea of a chosen race put forth in these books, its why I am not a follower of any of these religions. I don’t even agree that Israel should – at this point – be dissolved, at this stage that would make no sense at all.

I quote the jewsnotzionists website because (and by the way they aren’t the Naturei Karta, or the Satmar but another group) they show another side to Judaism. One that may not be perfect, but it demonstrates many things;
Not all Jews are Zionist (and not all Zionists are Jews)
That there are extremist views in Judaism, just as there are in Islam, and as you pointed out yourself, Christianity.
That there are parts of this history perhaps not so well known to many, that do raise some uncomfortable questions.
That there are those willing to live in peace with their Muslim neighbours (and this is certainly not limited to these guys, I would like to think that most of the actual Israeli people would be happy to see peace)

I do not, I repeat NOT condone the bloodlust of extremist Muslims. But I also do not tar all Muslims with the extremist brush. I do not tar all Israelis with the actions of their government, nor do I think all Jews follow the same ideals as the torah guys or even Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. I merely refer to them to show that in reality all these faiths share many similarities, and we should all view each other as people – equal people – otherwise this constant warring will continue until someone goes too far.

Thanks for the history lesson, seems to me the Palastinians should invite the Israelies back.

A very one-sided history lesson. Honestly, I wonder if the Israelis aren’t eventually just going to “invite” themselves back. But that’s neither here nor there.

The point here is that the blockade is a humanitarian travesty, and a war crime. If you can contradict this, then I’m all ears. Simply pointing to how terrible Hamas are doesn’t in any way excuse Israeli tactics in this regard.

Well the idea was to draw attention to an illegal blockade that is making life difficult for many people. And they’ve done that.

In all fairness Patrick, it hasn’t really done anything and will be forgotten about tomorrow. What they really need is a banner.

Patrick .Where are you getting that the blockade is legal.The UN Palmer report states the blockade is legal under international law.Due to the fact weapons are being brought into Gaza. That Iran wishes to seek to smuggle weapons into Gaza.

I dont have a problem with Israel being culturally Jewish but I do have an issue and a big one at that of any Country sponsoring any religion. Its 21st century afterall but I am largely pro Israel as they are much more liberal than their neighbours.

I have done in earlier comments, repeatedly – it is certainly a war crime to target the civilian population with rockets, and those responsible should be held to account, as should those on the Israeli side.

If the blockade were even effective in preventing rockets from being fired, then it may be in some way justifiable. But an alleged 40 rockets were fired in the last week, after a three year blockade.

Couldnt agree more, the IDF are really stupid if they think that they can continue to blockade Gaza … Fair play to the protestors… RESPECT!!!!

Who do you think are the fools?

Labels like ‘commie’ and ‘terrorist’ say a lot about your right leaning political view point.

Are you serious Barry? How about before you post a stupid comment like that, you actually research the topic. In at least two Al Jazeera videos on youtube the medical supplies are shown on board the ships.

Did you watch the video. They were asked what is your cargo.? They said We have no cargo

The last Irish boat had rugby balls. Now if Gaza was in such dire need.Surely every last space on their yacht would have been used for life saving supplies not publicity stunt rugby balls.

Ohh I watched the video and there was clearly aid on board. Because you have a hard time finding the video in question.. I will do that hard work for you and put a link here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxkSBmzUokk

Enjoy :)

XxX

They obviously didn’t look very hard for the aid:

http://www.tahrir.ca/content/medical-supplies-gaza-tahrir-labeled-food-stuff-board

everybody, lets not forget that Daniel is a card carryin fine gael git

Too personal Joseph. Not nice.

Just for you Michael…..

I’m sorry Daniel
I’ll try to be nicer when you make idiotic comments in the future.

If the irish defence forces behaved the same way as the israeli defence forces did
I believe i would die of shame.

Interesting documentary showing the israeli army in ‘action’
http://documentaryheaven.com/check-point/

i spent 6 years in the irish army.
dont insult me with any more attempts at finding similarities.

Wow. Yes what a incredibly well made impartial documentary. Do you believe everything you watch and read when its created by a lobby group like the IPSC with an agenda ?? ROFL.

really?? i suppose the israeli soldiers in it were all actors?

ur RollingOntheFloorLaughing comment speaks volumes about u.

You could film select edited pieces of footage of the Gardai or Irish Army and say they behave like thugs.
The Israeli’s aren’t dealing with Filipinio’s or Thai people they are dealing with a fascist brand of Islam which believes the entire Arabian penninsula must be Islamic. They have driven out most of the Christians in Syria and Lebanon and are now doing it to the Christians in Egypt,

There is no Gandhi in the West Bank. Never will be.I don’t excuse all the actions of the Israeli army but I am able to see the bigger picture when it comes to a “documentary” which is funded by an NGO from abroad with a desire to always portray Israel as evil.

There is alot of money made by Israeli’s and Palestinians from NGO dollars in demonising Israel if that suddenly stopped the money would go elsewhere.
Do these people ever go make videos of the army in Burma,Syria,Egypt,Iran,Sudan,China,?? No. Why?? There is no money to be made in doing so.

How’s about this, Barry? Authentic enough for you?

http://www.hrw.org/features/rain-fire-white-phosphorus-gaza

I’m getting pretty sick of the pro-Israeli’s whataboutery, but seeing as you say, Human Rights Watch report and make videos all over the world.

This being Human Rights Watch who went to Saudi Arabia on a mission for funding ? Saudi being a country which demands airlines flying into it refuse passage to Jews?
What next PETA heading to Slaney Meats for money to promote veganism

Niall .Your hilarious.Have you actually read the anti Israel comments. Half of them are reciting recycled spin from the IPSC. Yet you don’t accuse them of “whataboutery” .Your double standards are truely a joke.

Martin
Where did I mention antisemitism
My comment regarding prejudice refers to taking a markedly imbalanced view of the I/P conflict . How does that make the leap to accusing you of antisemitism ?