The blockade was found to be legal by the UN Palmer report.

That’s it Barry, pick and choose the one and only report that said it was legal (the one that was specifically drafted purely to ease tensions between Turkey and Israel) and ignore the numerous others that condemn it, like this one today: http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v5/newsgeneral.php?id=624933

“human rights conditions in the occupied Palestinian territory continued to worsen due to the violations of international humanitarian and human rights law by Israel.”

UN envoy Desmond Tutu, United Nations Human Rights Council head Navi Pillay, the International Committee of the Red Cross and, according to Richard Falk, most experts on international law consider the blockade illegal.

Or perhaps you like this UN resolution too?:

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, adopted on November 10, 1975 by a vote of 72 to 35 (with 32 abstentions), determined that “Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination”.

According to these guys Zionism is a form of Heresy..

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org

N.K also believe homosexuals should be stoned. As it’s Torah law. So keep digging there Shanti.

The UN resolution 3379 was overturned in 1991 with 46/86, under pressure from the Bush Snr Administration..

Barry – I didn’t notice this last night but you have just proven a point for me..

Here in the west Muslims are painted as barbaric, because under Sharia Law people can be stoned to death for things like Homosexuality and Adultery..
I have been pointing out all along that these ideals originate in the Torah.. Thank you for confirming what I had said.

And I will reiterate.. If we not had the benefit of democracy and movements to attain equal rights we could still have these laws in effect around the Judeo-Christian world.

If Israel is really a “Jewish state”.. Would it not have to operate under the laws of that religion? Because Talmudic / Torah law – as you have just said yourself – is every bit as barbaric as Sharia.. Because they all originate from the same place.. Which is the very point I have been making all along, the only reason Muslims follow these laws is because the whole idea of Islam is that Abraham gave the laws – the Jews failed to live as Abraham said (while Moses was up Mt Sinai they were worshipping a golden calf and certain books are said to be corrupted by the Levites), then Jesus came along, led the Christians – who also failed to live by Abrahamic rule, (the Church became corrupt and Council of Nicea edited the supposed word of god). Then along comes Mohammed – who points all this out and tells Muslims that Allah has now chosen them because he is disappointed with the others, and they need to prove that they can keep to Abrahamic law where the others have failed..

It’s the whole foundation of their religion to be stuck in the dark ages as they seek to prove that they can abide by Abrahamic law (which comes from the Torah) – so having this sponsored by the state certainly will not help Muslims along into the 21st century..

But the Arab and Muslim world are standing up. Civil action is making changes, the way we have over the past century..

My main point is you cannot bash Islam and then hold up Judaism or Christianity as something better, as they are all from the same Abrahamic vein.. The lack of womens rights, the modes of punishments, the homophobia, the marrying children.. It all comes right from Abraham and is not An Islamic construct. Mind you, the way the media tells it, you would believe it was..

(and Ps, as I explained to you elsewhere, Jews not Zionists are a seperate group from the Naturei Karta or the Satmar – there are many more anti-Zionist Jewish groups, please, leave the hasty generalisation fallacies out of this)

Shanti.
Your over obsession with Judaism and use of it to in fact attack the Jews is concerning.but I have met your sort before.
lISTEN HERE. Its not for me or you to lecture Israeli’s on how Jewish there state is or isn’t.
Turkey is Muslim but not Sharia.

The Jewish people are a people not just a faith. They are in fact both. You can have a party of gay atheist Jews and that is STILL a Jewish party.
Open your mind.

The Talmud has little importance for most Jews except the Ultra Orthodox.

As for the Arab world standing up. How dare you come here and LIE. A bare face lie you should be ashamed of. The Egyptians are currently persecuting the oldest Christian community in the world worse NOW than ever before.
The Christians of Lebanon. THe Bahai’s of Iran. The Jews of Yemen all suffer from sevre Islamic Fascism.So don’t come here and lie.

I wont hold my breath to find gay bars in Egypt.
I wont hold my breath that Egypt will stop shooting Sudanese refugees in the desert.

Again Barry, try reading what I said.. There has been no democratic or civil movement in the majority of Muslim States – the ones which had benefited from these things would be secularised..

I do NOT agree with the ultra orthodox views held by any of these religions, but it is the same book at the heart of the whole problem. The claim to the Holy land is based on this book. The crazy homophobic, barbaric laws come from the same book..

You claim that the Arab spring and the move toward democratic principles is a lie? There will be turmoil in the changeover, but yet again you throw in your straw man and think that it makes your argument stronger. You accuse me of lies and try to patronise me?
You wish to insert ideals into my mouth and mind, that is YOUR problem. You rely on fallacy to make your argument, that is YOUR problem.

Shanti keep quoting JewsnotZionists please. Your brighting up a rather cold weekend.
Not putting words in your mouth.Its a Fact what is happening to religious minorities across the Middle East and North Africa. You may choose to ignore that.That is your choice.

I don’t need to hide behind a fictious twitter account with some Hindu Bollywood name

its not trendy to have a go at islam

Where is the connection with taking a stand against Syrian government repression and “having a go at Islam”.

And I’ve been through this with you on another thread RDX, this whataboutery is most unbecoming.

the IRA were never justified

not well said at all! you make it sound like the british had no choice but to slap us down because of our renegade IRA – but they never would have had its advent without violent persecution and infringement of rights of irish people in the north by the british. imagine britain preventing the republic from giving aid to the north nowadays – wouldnt that be wrong? and in response to an earlier comment deriding the fact that the aid mission is also political- yes it is and so it should be! the israeli occupation is 100% wrong- should the rest of very world shut up and leave them to it? by being prevented from delivering aid direct they are highlighting the inhumanity of it in a peaceful way and so they should. I admire their courage- lets not forget the lives lost on the other flotila with no provocation. I doubt it was a decision taken lightly. finally, considering the persecution of the jewish people through history, they should know better than to inflict these crimes against humanity on the palestinians!

It was me that made the comment about the politically motivated actions. All I can say is get them to admit that. And also, I hope to god they don’t have much aid on them when they 100% know they are going to be arrested.

It was “constructed”** from refugees who had been forced to flee their own countries by discrimination, pogrom, riot, genocide etc. on account of their being Jewish. Are you saying they should go back to where they were forced to leave from? Have you checked to see if countries like Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Iran etc. would accept an influx of the hundreds of thousands of Jews they kicked out and their descendants?

What’s this about an attack on a French ship in NZ?

** all nations are sort of constructed.

Strongbow62, Israel never used phosphorus bombs against civilians in Gaza so please stop propagating such nasty lies and do some proper research. Hamas were actually the ones firing phosphorus bombs into southern Israel, but I know a little fact like that won’t change your mind about anything. Unfortunately it seems that when people want to find reasons to hate Israel truth and lies don’t really matter much.

Hi Simon, I did a teeny weeny bit of research and look what I found……. Israel DID use white phosphorus in Gaza.

Here is a link to Israeli spokesman Mark Regev admitting it :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1YusgoQ9bM

I’m sure if you do some proper research yourself you’ll no doubt find more evidence that you can post here for all to see.

thanks

What action(s) could Israel take to defend itself against these attacks that you would approve of?

It’s fascinating how 4 people have a problem with a perfectly reasonable, politely-worded question.

Perhaps force isn’t the way. Lead by example, if they would halt on the expansion and truly engage in peace talks (as opposed to receiving war machines in return for their compliance) they may be more trusted..
It does make sense that if the people you are entering into “peace” talks with keep arming themselves massively that perhaps their intention is not peace.
Especially as the Muslims study the Bible too, and the first few books aren’t exactly peaceful toward the nations the Jews “cast out” (see Deuteronomy)

Having said that, the Palestinians would need to lay down their arms too. Peace does not involve weapons.

Basically, there is a fundamental lack of trust. The Israelis will want to stay several steps ahead of their enemies because they feel that they are only ever one defeat away from annihilation. They need to win every war – Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran etc. only need to win one and then it’s curtains.

“Know thine enemy” is a well-worn line from the Bible and the Israelis know their enemies well because they’re only a few kms up (or down) the road. They see what the Syrian regime is doing to its own people. They know what Hamas is capable of because they’ll have seen the slaughter its militants visited on their fellow Moslem and Palestinian brothers of Fatah in Gaza in the summer of 2007. So if that’s what its enemies do to their own kith and kin, what would they do if they ever got the upper hand against the “sons of pigs and monkeys”, the Israelis?

Yes, know thine enemy..
If you read Deuteronomy you may see why the Muslims distrust the Jews.
If we have people here saying Muslims can’t be trusted because of their holy book then the same can be said of the bible.

That’s not to say that the majority of Jews nor Israelis would condone the utter destruction of those they cast out these days, but if we are to assume the Koran is to be taken literally that is unfair. Both books are bloody and intolerant.

And sadly, the actions of both sides have been the same.

Shanti, I’m certainly not implying that all Muslims are like that. Many if not most are very tolerant towards other religions although they have been the subject of much persecution too.

Shanti .Could you please tell us. Who is Israel to talk to in Peace talks?
It had someone in Egypt and Jordan to make peace with and it did.And there is Peace.
Why hasn’t it made peace with Palestinians. Because the Palestinians do not wish to seek peace.They have a belief that land controlled previously by Islam is still there’S. That is why even at protests in Dublin. You will hear. “Palestine to be free from the River to the Sea” AKA No Israel anymore.
How do you make peace with Abbas when he names streets after martyrs. He praised the suicide bombers who retruned in the GIlad Shalit swap. You have Hamas then bombing 1 million Israeli civilians. So please do tell me.WHO is to make peace.

Barry, I think here we may find some commonality.

I do not believe those posturing themselves as leaders have the best of intentions (but you could say this of the leaders of many countries) and unfortunately retaliation after retaliation, coupled with what many Arabs may see as the collusion of the US (Israels veto at the UN and weapons supplier) with their crazy dictators and the Taliban, and expansion over internationally recognised borders has engendered mistrust, and hatred, making it easier for those with more extreme views to whip up support.

I don’t support Hammas’ launching of missiles into Israel. Nor do I condone the IDF shooting at protestors standing on their own land (or the white phosphorous someone else linked to).
This is why I keep saying that there is fault on both sides, I hope that you can see that because I am aware that you may be under the impression I am on one side over the other.. I know that Israel must exist in the present day, to ask for its dissolution is impractical and illogical at this stage. But Israel also needs to respect international law with regards its’ borders – this could be the first step. But there are probably compelling reasons not to do this too..

Sadly, this situation will be with us until someone starts to compromise or there’s another genocide. I really hope that it’s compromise as the other should never happen.

Shanti Israel can have a Jewish character without being a Torah state.
Turkey has an Islamic character. Yet is not Sharia.

Now .Seriously. You over obsession with Judaism and your use of it to turn on Jews and bash them is the classic age old anti Semitic trick. I find your comments repulsive.
While you try come across as all Hippy and open minded,.Your intolerant of Judaism and whats sickening is I am not quite sure you can even see you own bias.

Barry. Turkey is a secular Islamic state.
Israel refers to itself as a Jewish State – but you admit yourself, it is predominantly Secular or Atheist. In which case it is not truly a Jewish state but a homeland with predominantly Jewish inhabitants – like Turkey and Islam or Ireland and Catholicism.
The difference being that a proper Muslim State would operate under Sharia law, so it would be fair to assume that if Israel is a Jewish State and not a Secular Jewish state that it would use Talmudic law – seeing as these are the laws that Jews are supposed to live by. If its a secular state then thats fair enough – but why specify that it is a jewish state as opposed to the jewish homeland then? Which was the point I was making if you would care to read it..

But it’s obvious you wish to just rely on fallacy to make your points, which shows the true value of your argument. I have zero issue with Jews, Christians or Muslims as people, although I do realise that each of their religions is messed up – equally, and take issue with this part of EACH of them. But please, feel free to tell me what I think and feel, you obviously know better than I do..

Shanti. The Talmud does not set down the laws for Jewish life. Its the Torah.Every anti israel activist I have ever met.Loves to rattle on about the Talmud. I doubt any have ever sat down and read the whole book and even at that you interpret it the way you so choose.And the link you keep quoting JewsnotZionist is Neutri Karta
As I have already said. Israeli’s are free to have what ever laws they so choose.

Its a state made up of mostly jewish people. It has a Jewish character. Its a Jewish state. Now split hairs somewhere else. Your arrogance is boring.

And Shanti here you’ve read the JewsnotZionist Neutri Katra webpage. Just proves my point. Hitler and the Anti Semitic grand Mufti of Jerusalem were close friends,It even says so much on the website.

Summary for others : Israel used white phosphorus and deny it.

I meant I am *sick of those attention seeking actions

I just reread what I wrote, sorry for the confusing grammar, im tired!

The Rafah crossing has been opened except weekends since May

Men between 18 and 40 still face severe restrictions and the movement of goods is also restricted. There’s no good reason for this – Gazan militants have NEVER engaged in aggression against any Egyptian town or village.

January 07, 2010
Rafah, Gaza Strip — Hamas loyalists and Egyptian troops opened fire along Gaza’s volatile border Wednesday, leaving an Egyptian soldier dead and more than a dozen Gazans hurt in the bloodiest clash between the two sides in a year.

I see your a big believer in the legal system . So when did we have a court case and find Mossad guilty? Yes we believe it is. But was anyone ever found guilty??? NO.

Rory, you say Israel has a right to defend itself but you seem to be criticising it for exercising that right. What action(s) could Israel take to defend itself against these attacks that you would approve of?

But this wasn’t an attack, it was an aid ship.
If it had been a war ship with weapons on board they would be defending themselves. As they are boarding a ship with stated intentions of aid (which has presumably been searched by now and confirmed as containing aid and not weapons) they are not “defending” themselves, merely preventing a ship from making its journey with medical supplies..

Shanti,

But they don’t know that until they actually stop the ship. That’s the whole point of a blockade.

Are they gonna send them on their merry way or send them back?
Which would be the more humanitarian thing to do?

The flotilla folk will be sent home. The aid will be sent on to Gaza.

Will it? Who is going to ensure it gets to the Gazans, the people who ordered the blockade and wouldn’t let the supplies in there in the first place?

This MV Saoirse is a cabin cruiser, not a humanitarian supplies transport. The entire purpose of this boat trip was to get stopped by the IDF and maximise the publicity. What a lot of wasted energy.

What’s going on? The Israelis say they’ve searched the ships and found no humanitatian aid on board…..!

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4143893,00.html

The Israelis lied about there being no aid on board, or that particular news outlet lied about it:

http://www.tahrir.ca/content/medical-supplies-gaza-tahrir-labeled-food-stuff-board
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxkSBmzUokk

They’ll get home safe – don’t worry. It’s a lot more than can be said for the protesters in Syria or those unfortunate doctors in Bahrain who did nothing more than offer medical aid to pro-democracy demonstrators attacked by regime thugs.

Act of piracy? Rory, the blockade is legal. Tell me, what would you have Israelis do to defend themselves against the attacks from Gaza? If they retaliate, they’re in the wrong. If they try to blockade it, that’s wrong too.

Piracy can only be committed by private individuals Rory, it can not be committed by a State. The problem with the blockade is the differing legal opinions and people picking and choosing the laws and organizations that suit them.

How are the Israelis to tell which boats are just carrying humanitarian aid and which ones are carrying weapons, explosives etc.? Unless they actually board the vessel?

You didn’t answer my previous question so I’ll post it again. You say Israel has a right to defend itself but you seem to be criticising it for exercising that right. What action(s) could Israel take to defend itself against these attacks that you would approve of?

Rory they were told to divert away from Gaza. They refused to do so and Israel had to investigate their intentions.

Have you ever seen how the US Border Protection agency works? They send armed guards onto any vessel with dogs and other supports.

Many ships pass this area every day, Israel need to verify their intentions. The military did not enter the ship to cause harm or intimidation. They simply entered to explain that the ship had to change direction and dock in either Ashdod or Egypt etc.

Israel are enforcing the legally recognized military zone. They are entitled to board any delinquent vessel failing to comply with internationally recognized laws.

Don’t forget, they were given advance warning as they approached. They had at this point the option of diverting, had they done this there would have been no interaction with Israeli security forces.

How many different ways would you like me to answer the question? To directly answer the question.
1. If there was intent to harm, maim or kill then they have the right to intercept it in Israeli controlled waters.
2. If the boat attacked then they had the right to blow it out of the water.
3. Having already boarded the vessel, established that there was no threat and understood that the intent was that of a purely humanitarian nature then they should have let the boat complete its mission.

1. A country can enfore a blockade outside its own territorial waters. Otherwise, a nation could take no such action against a belligerent country unless its territorial waters encircled those of the enemy. Going by your argument, Britain’s blockade of Germany in WW1 was wrong. They were acting well outside their own territorial waters.

3. I doubt that a thorough search can be done in a few minutes in the open sea.

A country cannot legitimately, however, inflict suffering on the civilian populace en masse in pursuance of an armed conflict.

That is known as collective punishment and breaches the Geneva Conventions – it’s a war crime.

As is hamas’s collective punishment of 1 million Israeli civilians. CHicken and Egg syndrome.

Well and good, Barry, but who are the supposed terrorists here, and who’s the supposed liberal democracy. Two wrongs, etc.

That has to be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read.

Zionist’s trolling

The only troll here is you. Branding people Zionists because they make sense? You’re a sad representative of your position. I love Israel and Israelis, and Lebonese and Egyptians. I grew up a Southern Baptist. What box you going to put me in? Muppet.

@Jackass

What box? Coffin I bet…. ha!

I’m a Roman Catholic so I want my own box.

Oh… light-hearted moment.

Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it’s right or that we should not challange it. How many other atrocities have been legal in the the past? Apartheid? Segregation? Slavery? Those were legal once yet utterly wrong on such a basic level. This blockage should be challenged and those aboad the ship should be proud of themselves.

Fair enough, Seán. Do you think maritime blockades have always been wrong?

@Ciarán, I try not to generalise, and I won’t say that every maritime blockade is wrong.
However, I will say that the situation in Palistine is wrong and that’s the reason I disagree with it.

@Sean Joe Kearns. But why do you think this blockade is wrong when others may not be? Genuine question not looking for arguement.

@Ommm, The main reason why I think this blockade is wrong is that it’s part of a much bigger issue in the region. Israel has been enforcing a blockade on Palistine which impedes on the lives of regular people. I understand the concerns about weapons, but it also impedes the direct quick flow of humanitarian aid to the region, further causing relations to deteriorate.

Séan,

If this blockade was illegal then we would hear endless stores and attacks against Israel breaking the rule of law. Now this has been defined as legal we point to hypothesis.

Yes bad things happened in the past in the name of law. These things your refer to did not have the seal of approval from so many international bodies.

The UN, everyones best friend in times of war and trouble has said this is legal, they have scrutinized every aspect of the blockade. They looked carefully at the pros and cons, giving equal weight to the impact such a maritime block would have on the inhabitants in Gaza and the value of such preventative measures to stop weapons being used against Israel.

In the interest of the common good, the UN have agreed after careful consideration of all the facts, the maritime blockade should be legally recognized and enforced.

So applying the facts as we know them, the block has the full force of international law.

If we question the legitimacy of this legal mechanism to prevent smuggling into Gaza, then why not look at every single case that has gone before our own Courts. There have been miscarriages of justice in the past, does that mean we should overturn every court order?

Eire. What because someone puts across their point of view its Zionist troll. A fact is Trolling ?? Go off and learn what it means.Your really constructive to the debate sitting their in your armchair.With comments like “Zionist trolling” ROFL

Darren, you can’t really believe that there is “no humanitarian issue in Gaza”. Are you that blinkered? Where is this IRC report you’re citing anyway, care to link it?

There are many reports of malnutrition among children in Gaza, one report citing a prevalance of 52%.

And seeing as you’re so keen on international law, do you not think it’s a bit rich of Israel to insist on the strict legality of the blockade, while ignoring UN Resolution after UN Resolution. Here’s the latest:

http://www.un.org/en/ecosoc/docs/2011/res%202011.41.pdf

“Gravely concerned at various reports of the United Nations and specialized agencies regarding the substantial aid dependency caused by prolonged border closures, inordinate rates of unemployment, widespread poverty and severe humanitarian hardships, including food insecurity and rising health-related
problems, including high levels of malnutrition, among the Palestinian people, especially children, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem,

Expressing grave concern at the deaths and injuries caused to civilians, including children, women and peaceful demonstrators, and emphasizing that the Palestinian civilian population must be protected in accordance with international humanitarian law, “

I am reading a book at the moment written by an Israeli journalist who has many years experience of reporting in this region, for every 1 Israeli killed, 100 Palestinians have been killed – does this fact alone not ring any alarm bells for people who think the blockade is justified. None of what you say about Israel letting through humanitarian aid seems to be backed up by anyone working on the ground, including Irish army friends of mine stationed in the region. Interested to know what is informing your opinions on this.

Ok.. We now speak of international law. May I pose a serious question?

On one hand we have a blockade which posters have pointed out was deemed legal. This implies that this rule of law should be adhered to, yes?

On the other hand, there are internationally recognised borders for Israel, and Israel ignores this and continues to expand, in direct contravention of international law.

Do those who condemn the flotilla also condemn the way Israel has ignored international law?

Personally, I think all of Jerusalem should be under Israeli sovereignty as long as there are guarantees to Moslems and Christians that they will have access to their sites of religious interest. The city has a significance for the Jewish people that it has for no other religion. As for settlements in the West Bank, I don’t support them and I think that there is a recognition in the Israeli body politic that a lot of them will have to go in a final settlement.

But it would be wrong to look at the settlements issue in isolation. Israeli is tiny, densely populated country with few resources and a rapidly expanding population. Expansion of towns and villages in southern Israel is difficult due to the attacks from Gaza. Regions near the borders with Lebabon and Syria are still too dangerous. People do need to live somewhere.

If any of those settlements in the West Bank are to remain, then I think the future Palestinian state should be compensated with territory elsewhere. What we need is a solution that guarantees security for Israelis (not sure if the pre-1967 borders do that) while giving the Palestinians borders that can be administered rather than a patchwork of “bantustans”.

Shanti. HERE IS YOUR HUGE LIE

The so called 67 lines have been rejected by the Palestinians. The 67 lines are in fact the 49 armistace lines. Armistace lines have never been borders. Never

The lines you talk about are the very lines the Arabs themselves reject.
So you sit there with your western arrogance lecturing .

Tell you what, why don’t the Israelis get a bunch of barbed wire and lumber and build a nice camp where they can all live, with guard towers so the friendly Israelis can keep an eye on them. They should be glad to have it.

Granted, the blockade has essentially turned Gaza into an open-air prison, so it seems that they’re ahead of me on that one.

Barry.. I referred to the INTERNATIONALLY recognised borders. And you refer to the Arab acceptance of these lines. We have already established that the Arabs – who were forced from their land – dispute Israels existence. Israel at this stage must exist and so I refer to the INTERNATIONALLY recognised borders.
But continue with your fallacies and make accusations if you wish.

What internationally recognised borders. Go check the facts. Armistace lines are NOT international borders. They were drawn up to stop Jordan attacking Israel.

As for Niall. Well done .Really adding to the debate their mate.ROFL.
Gaza is anything but a prison camp. End the rockets attacks.The blockade ends. Simples. But you don’t seem to be able to put as much effort into getting Gazans to stop the rockets. its quite simply.Israel ends the blockade.Iran WILL SEND WEAPONS. Or do you dispute this FACT .

“If any of those settlements in the West Bank are to remain, then I think the future Palestinian state should be compensated with territory elsewhere. What we need is a solution that guarantees security for Israelis (not sure if the pre-1967 borders do that) while giving the Palestinians borders that can be administered rather than a patchwork of “bantustans”.

It’s essentially what Ciarán suggested.

Jimmy Carter seems to think that Gaza is an open-air prison, even before the blockade, suppose he’s some kind of rabid anti-Semite and/or knows nothing about Israel as well?

Now who is talking a load of “whataboutery” Jimmy said it so it must be true.
How much money has he made from giving speaches against Israel. How much money has Jimmy made from his very profitable book about Israel and the Palestinians ??

Let me define whataboutery for you.

Whataboutery is a discursive technique involving the use of vaguely analogous topics to distract attention from the topic at hand.

The topic at hand, at present, is the Israeli blockade on Palestine, which is causing untold, needless suffering, particularly in Gaza city.

So, an argument that says, “why don’t you protest over Syria, Assad is much worse” is whataboutery. An argument that says “Hamas are awful people, FGM and everything” is whataboutery. An argument that says, “so you got a video of the IDF dropping white phosphorous on a school, but do you shoot anywhere else in the world” is whataboutery.

The issue is Israel’s illegitimate and probably illegal tactics in prosecuting their conflict with Hamas. And ineffective too, in military terms, chillingly effective in the infliction of suffering.

Saying that Gaza is an open air prison and citing authority for that proposition is not whataboutery in this context.

For goodness sake Barry..
Learn what a logical fallacy is. There are 42 of them. And each one is the hallmark of a bad argument.
It seems to be all you can come up with. That last one was Ad Hominem, and possibly a few more.

@Shanti you wrote: “I referred to the INTERNATIONALLY recognised borders.” Can you please explain to us all – what exactly are your so-called ‘internationally recognized boarders’?

Innocent until proven guilty I see.
The boat was an old passenger yacht. The IPSC said it was sabotaged by Israel so aka its True. Yeah because the IPSC have no agenda.

Why don’t you read the report issued by Our President Elect Michael D Higgins after his fact finding mission to Gaza between the 22nd & the 28th August 2005 ……It has been viewed that Israel is imposing Apartheid on the Palestinian People & that the Gaza Strip is nothing more than an open Air prison!

dont you mean right wing hippys? after all they want an islamic state and islam makes michelle bachman look like a socialist

M D Higgins cannot be considered impartial when it comes to Israel.

Hmmm, the rockets might have something to do with the continued encroachment into occupied territory… Just a thought

The bold Arabs should really do what the Irish did 90 years ago and ask the Brits to kindly stop treating them like shit and return occupied Ireland to the Irish, without a single shot fired. But then again, how can you reason with people who are so hell-bent on their goals because their god said they must do so?

Imran. False. Gaza has been returned to Gazans. There are no Israeli’s in Gaza up until last week there was 1 the Hostage Gilad Shalit.Who is now free.
So there is no encroachment into Gazan territory. Rockets on Israeli civilians is a war crime.
This has got to do with Hamas’s islamic supremicacy

Agreed.

Hope Labour leader & Foreign Affairs Minister Eamon Gilmore issues a strong statement to the Israel administration to protect & give safe passage home to the Irish citizens & to pass on the much needed medicine to Gaza the flotilla was carrying ….I commend all those on board be it from the world of Sport, Art ,Politics , Unions & other interests for highlighting this issue safe home!!!!!

At least have the balls to use you real name before you engage in trolling

That aimed at me, Niall? Wow… do you insist that everyone everywhere on the internet use their real name in discussions before you engage with them?

How about you having the “liathróidí” to answer my point?

Niall, seriously? Disagree with the first post above if you want but it wasn’t trolling.

Are you saying that legality and legitimacy are always concomitant, IE?

Now that you mention it, I’d question your motives a wee bit less if you’d acknowledge the threat posed to the civilian population of Gaza by the IDF and the blockade.

Of course, Hamas’ rockets do pose a threat to Israeli civilians, but collective punishment cannot be justified.

NO AID ON THE SHIP! This was a blockade breaking political effort not a humanitarian mission.
‘No humanitarian aid found onboard Gaza flotilla’ http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4143893,00.html

Israel has no embargo on medical/ humanitarian aid. The irony is that had the ship been carrying aid and not just a cargo of publicity seeking Irishmen Israel would have delivered it along with the tons of aid/permitted materials it allows to be trucked in every day.

Niall,

I have no problem acknowledging that the IDF have caused the deaths of civilians in Gaza. But whose fault is this ultimately? There would be no Israeli attacks on Gaza were it not for the missile attacks on Israeli towns and villages. The Allies caused the deaths of many German civilians during World War 2. Was that wrong?

You talk about collective punishment. Israeli civilians right across the south of the country are being collectively punished too. People are leaving towns like Sderot now because of the attacks.

Not the point, IE – two wrongs, etc.

There are legitimate means of prosecuting armed conflict – collective punishment is not one of them.

We’re not talking about occasional civilian casualties here, we’re talking about an entire city being placed under siege. Again, I would like to draw your attention to UN Resolution 2011/41, which cites the severe humanitarian consequences of the Israeli blockade.

http://www.un.org/en/ecosoc/docs/2011/res%202011.41.pdf

“Gravely concerned at various reports of the United Nations and specialized agencies regarding the substantial aid dependency caused by prolonged border closures, inordinate rates of unemployment, widespread poverty and severe humanitarian hardships, including food insecurity and rising health-related problems, including high levels of malnutrition, among the Palestinian people, especially children, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem,

Expressing grave concern at the deaths and injuries caused to civilians, including children, women and peaceful demonstrators, and emphasizing that the Palestinian civilian population must be protected in accordance with international humanitarian law, “

Niall, what action(s) could Israel take to defend itself against these attacks that you would approve of?

Bear in mind that Hamas et al are remarkably adept at conjuring up missiles from the most primitive materials. One of the reasons there was/is a sanitation crisis in Gaza is that they’ve been using pipes meant for repairing the old sewage network – perhaps even digging up the existing pipes to make them into missiles.

Means that do not contravene the laws of war – oxymoronic, granted – and more importantly do not inflict needless suffering on innocent children.

Israel receives $3billion in military aid from the US every year, I’m sure they’ll figure something out. No need to dig up the sewers to improvise rockets on their side.

Niall, I’m not going to criticise you for having avoided answering the question. It’s actually very very hard to take action against militants in a densely populated city state without incurring civilian casualties – especially when the “militants” don’t wear uniforms or anything else to distinguish them as combatants as would happen in a “normal” war – the rules of which you continually invoke.

Hamas and the militants know this. That’s why they do what they do.

I didn’t avoid the question – I never claimed to be a military tactician, but I am sure that Israel’s massively well funded, equipped and trained army has the ability to develop new tactics – IF their political masters make it clear that the easy option of war crimes and collective punishment has been taken off the table.

As an aside, it’s alleged that Hamas fired 40 rockets in the past week – it would seem that the siege and starvation tactic isn’t even particularly effective – which might possibly have gone towards justifying it.

No, I’m not a military tactician, I’m just a human being who retains a shred of common decency, and won’t let ideological posturing obscure the fact that intentionally subjecting children to starvation is not an acceptable strategy under any circumstances.

There are two issues here:
1. The military reprisals by the IDF against missile attacks by Gaza militants.
2. The effects of the blockade.

1. You say the Israelis should develop new tactics – effectively tactics that will avoid civilian casualties in a densely populated urban area. I don’t know any army anywhere that has succeeded in doing this.

2. I’d love to get an unbiased account of what conditions are like for people in Gaza. I’ve seen pictures of markets well stocked with fruit and veg which “my side of the argument” use to argue that everything is fine. But the “other side” is no doubt capable of similar methods too. Is there actual starvation? Is there not enough getting food getting in or is that that people can’t afford to buy it due to inequalities? If the answer to the last question is “yes”, is Israel’s blockade responsible for those inequalities? As I’ve argued elsewhere, childhood malnutrition is Egypt has been described as remaining “stubbornly high”.

I’ve separately posted this link but I’ll post it here too:
http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/News/today/2011/04/2004.htm

I really should let this go. But, briefly:

1. The blockade has failed to neutralise Hamas’ military capacity. I would suggest, tentatively, that maybe allowing in the building materials necessary to reconstruct Gaza’s infrastructure, and sow the seeds for economic recovery would help. Maybe allowing the 40% of young Palestinian men who are currently unemployed the opportunity to leave Gaza and seek work, and have hope for the future, might be a good start. The devil makes work for idle hands.

2. I think we both know that everything in Gaza is not “fine”. I have steered clear from citing the obvious propaganda disseminated in favour of the Palestinians, because I have as little respect for it as I do for the IDF’s psy-ops.

This isn’t about “winning” the argument, I think there’s a real tragedy happening here, and that we should put common human decency ahead of ideological concerns on this issue.

Here’s a reasonably balanced analysis of that article:

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/07/in-response-to-biased-idf-report-on-gaza-the-international-red-cross-says-the-situation-is-grave-and-serious.html

And in interview with the Deputy Head of the Red Cross in Gaza:

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/interview/2011/palestine-israel-interview-2011-05-19.htm

The blockade is economic warfare, and it’s the most vulnerable – the poor, and children – who are suffering the most. This cannot be justified.

Lol

Like every denunciation of Ireland is anti Catholic, Right?

The funny thing is Martin apart from the odd nutter who is quickly booted off here, no-one mentions the Jewish faith in their arguments. None of the previous commentators mentioned Judaism and only refer to Israel. It is people like you who play the religious card, for what purpose I don’t know.

@mcnally your probably a Gay Mitchell Fine Gael voter & one of his (6.4%) voters ! Attack Sinn Fein all you want they have a mandate & will grow as a political force in this country …..Why don’t you read the report issued after President Elect Michael D Higgins visited Palestine in August 2005 on a fact finding mission, attack the Shinners all you want but a right to national self determination against an occupier (Israel) & a gerrymandering system should remind us here in Ireland of the failed & flaw system the generations of hatred & the consequences of same that will continue to develop in he region …..

I see no need for fighting, I see a need from BOTH SIDES to offer respect to one another.

I agree that the Jews should have a homeland if they want it. I do not agree with how it came about, nor do I agree with the actions of the Israeli government or their Lobbyists, but only as much as I would disagree with the actions of the American government, or the Turkish government, the Saudi government or many others.. Does this mean that I hate the people’s of these countries? No, our government doesn’t represent us – who is to say theirs do?

As for religions, it is a belief – of which there is no proof, most other religions around the world can co exist with others peacefully – like Buddhists, Shamen, Pagans etc, but the Abrahamic religions all share this “we are gods chosen ones and you’re either one of us or you’re not (and God help you if you are not)”, which seems quite hostile to me.. I can respect their religions apart from that elitist nonsense..

People seem willing to go for a black and white representation of either side – it is not the ideal more the actions that bother me..
I see a lot of negative propaganda about Muslims – and I see a hatred for them reminiscent of how we are taught hatred was whipped up for the Jews in nazi Germany.. Yes, there are extremist elements to the Muslim faith, but there are extremist Christians and extremist Jews too.. Because they are all human, and humans are prone to this extremist nonsense.. The majority does not fit this description, but pays the price anyway.. This makes me sick to my stomach..

I have kept saying – neither side is totally justified. But people referring to Islam as a vile religion, or equating it with terrorists – that shows a bit of ignorance to the common vein that originated in the religion they are defending.. All of those books can be twisted around to suit a psychopathic agenda. But so long as people want to base their opinion of a nation, or a religion, on a minority of its inhabitants / followers, then we could be straying right into genocide territory and all those who view the victims as vile and hateful will probably be willing to excuse it.

Yes, because it’s obviously that black and white.

BOTH sides carry blame
BOTH sides have done appalling things
BOTH ideologies state that they alone are gods chosen people and everyone else is below that.
BOTH religions worship the same god

But sit here and paint all those who follow the Islamic faith as destructive and evil.. If someone were to try and do that to the Jews there would be uproar. People would scream “nazi!” or “antisemite!” (ignoring the fact that Arab Muslims are just as Semitic as the Jews, and that the bible is just as nasty and destructive as the Koran)

Spot the hypocrisy.. You all spout hate speeches against Islam, but condemn anyone for even criticising anything Israel does because it’s obviously anti Jew to criticise a state..

You all sound like the new wave of Nazis.. Only instead of the Germans v Jews (and it wasnt JUST jews that they took issue with) its the west v Islam.. Millions have been slaughtered already, thanks to Bush and his neocons, but most people probably won’t appreciate just how wrong that all is until long after it is too late..

I have nothing against any one religion, but it’s apparent everyone here has heard all the propaganda they need about Muslims to keep their consciences clear when the west seeks to wipe them from the planet.

@McNally it was medicine on board the MV Saoirse if Israel has any common decency they will hand over the medicine that was on board to an aid agency on the ground in Gaza …You sum up the worse that is the Irish Spirit we as a nation, Yes , on our knees at the moment but spirit not broken we put our hands in our pockets to help those worse of than us be it in the horn of Africa , Gaza or here at home with the Live Line appeal for the Russian artist who was a victim of a brutal knife attack & yet you snigger & shrug that we should ask the Shinner’s for a refund for medicines You Are Vile & as I said we are a given people putting our hands in our pockets while our Government puts their hands into our other pockets to pay Unsecured Bond Holders

You mean the medicene which last time was gone off and Hamas refused??? ROFL
Gazans don’t want Ireland’s handme down medical supplies. They can send any citizien in need of medical treatment free of charge to Israel for treatment,

Sticks & stones No def not a Fine Gael voter but here you are slagging Mitchell for his humanitarian support in the past just like those in Sinn Fein as you continue to swipe at You seem to have issues with helping those more unfortunate then yourself & you probably thumb up your own comments