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Dublin: 11 °C Sunday 19 May, 2013

Higgins says Government delusional on a “Marie Antoinette scale”

Socialist Party leader says that the government are in denial over the household charge – and says that people are not going to pay.

SOCIALIST PARTY LEADER Joe Higgins has said that the government are “delusional” about the public mood over the household charge.

Speaking during Leader’s Questions  today, Higgins said the refusal by the public to pay the household charge is “a massive revolt against the massive policy of austerity”.

He said the government are maintaining that the 83 per cent of people who have not yet made the payment are merely waiting until the last minute. However Higgins stated this was “delusional on a Marie Antoinette scale”.

Higgins argues the government are out of touch with the public drawing comparisons with Marie Antoinette. (AP/Press Association Images)

Higgins recommended that Gilmore read the recent New York Times article on the household charge issue that he said “got it far more right”.

“We have to bring reality into the chamber here,” he said. He then asked if the new proposed arrangement with the EU authorities to avoid paying the  €3.1 billion cash payment on the State’s bill for Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide, would mean that Gilmore would “withdraw this regressive household tax and listen to what the people are saying”.

Over 300,000 homes have registered for the household charge so far. Gilmore has said that there will be no extension on the 31 March deadline despite Fianna Fáil calling for an extension “in light of serious inadequacies”.

Gilmore said “If we were listening to you Deputy Higgins the country would run out of money” adding that Higgins dealt in juvenile economics. Higgins stated that the household tax was putting the “massive burden of this corruption on the backs of the ordinary people”. He added that the “revolt” against the tax was simply a symbol of people’s disdain for the government’s austerity measures.

When Sinn Fein’s Martin Ferris asked what legislation might me introduced that would criminalise those who did not pay – Gilmore said they were not bringing any legislation forward that would criminalise the “ordinary citizen”. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government confirmed to TheJournal.ie that the household charge legislation is complete and has already been published.  “We are not drafting any amendments to it,” said the department’s spokesperson.

Gilmore previously caused some confusion around the household charge matter when he stated in the Dáil that the charge could be paid at the post office. However people can only collect the forms from their local post office. The Postmaster’s Union said they are “mystified” as to why the public cannot pay the charge in post offices nationwide.

Unite urges members not to pay household charge>

Household charge: 286,000 register to pay>

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Comments (103 Comments)

  • “If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.” Thomas Jefferson

    “It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home” Enda Kenny, 1994

    Reply
  • Why should mcgee have to offer you a alternative Mark? After all your opening comment is ‘feck off to a gulag Joe’ hardly a well reasoned argument to prove Higgins is a waster is it? BTW for the record I’m not a ‘lefty’ as you call it, happily I’m not a supporter of the righties (is that a word?) who got us into this mess in the first place.

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  • It seams as soon as they got into ‘power’ FG/Lab stopped listening to the ordinary person. This will be their downfall.

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  • Don’t offer them cake, they’ll make us pay for it.

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  • I see you have emigrated so maybe you are not aware for many Irish citizens coming up with an extra 100 euro is a large issue. Some will be sitting at a table tonight going through lists looking at what savings they can make and still feed their kids, act like responsible citizens and keep up with their mortgage payments, god help them if they have a kid doing the junior or leaving cert that’s another 109 euro they need to come up within the next week. While I may not agree with most of what Joe H stands for he is a brilliant speaker and does to be fair to him seem to believe in what he stands for. Not something that sadly can be said about the main stream parties in this country.

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  • Read this Mr Gilmore , I will not pay!

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  • @ Liam. You’re right, we had a domestic rate till the 70′s. And do you think since then we’ve had our services for free? No, we’ve paid through direct and indirect taxation. This household charge is an attempt to make us pay twice for the same services so the taxes which covered it up till now can be skimmed off for the banking debts. Oh, and in relation to your last snarky comment, homes are a necessity and cannot be considered as property in the material sense unless you own more than one. But we all know that. Please bring an honest opinion to the debate instead of dredging up all the old cliches.

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  • Cotter you cheeky f..k saying Joe represents people that don’t work and never have worked .. Who’s your involvement with politically ?. I can tell you that Joe Higgins does great work in the D.15 area. He represents working people , he lives in a modest house and takes only an average workers wage from his Dail salary. Unlike the other establishment parties he doesn’t bleat like sheep and tow the party line even when austerity measures are worsening the crisis for ‘ working people ‘ . It’s easy to get online and post shite , the same as o flaherty there. Your probably both registered already to pay your household charge .. Pair of clowns

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  • Gzeit 22/03/12 #

    Mark, I don’t think a man who stands up for the rights of ordinary people is a joke! He is the only one man enough to tell it like it is. What is a joke is people like u not actually listening to what he is saying. The people of Ireland voted for the current bunch of clowns so we deserve the pile of shit we find ourselves in. Maybe if we had voted people like Joe higgins in we’d be in a better place!

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    • He tells it like it is? sure I could do that – he offers no alternative. If we were to go by his economic policies we’d be back to the stone age. Get a grip

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    • back in the stone age, eh?

      theres many people who are just about surviving in this country.
      what do u call that as an end result? a success????

      gimme a break.

      oh, and get a grip yerself,
      ya sound like another ‘Yes Man’
      another Man From Del Monte :-)

      Reply
    • There will be a lot more people who will be just about surviving in the country if Higgins and his party ever have a position of power when they aim to target the exact issues (corporate tax for example) that are key to providing employment, both direct and indirect. Completely counter productive, at least they don’t have blood on their hands like the other “socialist” Sinn Fein

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    • Mark your really funny. You really don’t like the Irish people do ye? Unless they are bankers of course, at least your consistant with your party. 80% of the Irish people seem to be against the new flat rate house hold charge yet Enda and big Phil won’t listen. Would you rather a dictatorship maybe. Democracy appears to be just an annoyance to you guys these days.

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    • I understand people are against the charge, and that some people can’t afford to pay it. My issues isn’t with that – its with trying to take the man seriously. As one of the lads said above, if Higgins has his way he’d give the boot to multinationals, and nationalise half the country. Do you know what that would mean for the country? The man is nothing other then a professional protester.

      Reply
    • So Mark
      You emmigrated from these green shores as a life style choice ! Good for you :)

      Reply
  • Of course we are angry David and we have every right to be angry. Sold down the river by FF, FG & Lab who will see us pay debts run up by foolish foreign lenders, Irish banks run by criminals (some who should be in jail by now). Yup I’m angry very angry.

    Reply
  • Enda says paddy likes to know, well paddy wants to be heard, so listen Enda!

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    • Enda using xenophobic when referring to the Irish public shows exactly how out of touch they are.

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    • That should have been “xenophobic slurs”.

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    • So mark what forced you to emigrate? Was it the policies of two centre right governments? Here’s one alternative, cut VAT to 17.5% making products more affordable making people more inclined to spend and as such possibly even increasing gross take. Here’s another, refuse to pay the ECB back the money they invented through false inflation and invest it in capital expenditure projects getting people in a depressed sector back into work, back spending and back paying taxes! The centre left is always preferable to the centre right!

      Reply
  • thats funny as hell mark!
    you say
    “Higgins, and his party have a completely ridiculous economic policy that would disastrous for the country.”

    have u been living in this country???
    joker

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  • Joe is a bit of broken record but at least the man gives a damn about the welfare of the people of this country. Your a right winger, well wait a few months theres a lot of former right wingers that changed thier jerseys once this goverment actions (or rather inaction) cost them their jobs. A right winger is a temporary state of mind in modern ireland. You should take a pic of yourself in your pin stripe suit while you can.

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  • We had a discussion on the tax recently, myself a and a few others and were joined by several more and the overwhelming opinion was that Fg and Labour have proven themselves to be quite liberal with the truth before and after the election and they tell you that this tax will go towards better road surfaces, street lighting and pavements all you can hear is banks, bondholders and ECB.
    If however you were given cast iron assurances that this tax went to the building of a children’s hospital most people would pay without fuss, if they knew that it was going directly back into public service then it would not be avoided by so many but the government dug the hole, people don’t believe a word they say to them and they will not continue to fund zombie banks or pay back a foreign debt we have no moral or legal obligation to pay.

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  • O’Flaherty, a bit much really don’t you think, taking swipes at a socialist when you guys are responsible for firebombing the entire global economy? What’s your solution so, because we’re tried yours and austerity clearly isn’t working?

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  • So what. He’s right this time.

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  • Fair play to Joe Higgins for saying it as it is .

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    • Did he figure out how we are paying for that 15 billion we’re getting off the troika? I’d genuinely love to hear it if he has.

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    • So this tax is going towards paying back the forced debts foisted upon us to the troika Gary?
      Why would the government lie and tell us it’s for fixing potholes?
      Glad you said it like it is Gary.

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    • As you well know Dermot the vast majority of the money we’ll be paying back is to pay our overspending over the last few years. We freely borrowed that money because we’re taking far less in, in tax, than we’re spending. Overspending that happened because we didn’t have the stamp duty money from an unsustainable property bubble. But we now also want to reject sustainable taxes as they seem a bit unfair. Perhaps reality is sometimes unfair eh?
      As one of the don’t want to borrow, don’t want to tax, don’t want austerity crowd maybe you can tell me how we pay for that 15 billion a year?

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    • See my post below Gary……all i’m saying on this matter is that the boycotting of this tax is down to an ambivalence to this continued funding of zombie banks and repayment of debts we never ran up individually.
      People do not believe for one moment that this tax goes towards public lighting, pavements or fixing the scourge of potholes…(3 of which are still outside my house the past 2 years and are “not high on the list” – *county council response when i called in)….they are in the main assured that this is just another whip round for the bondholder brigade, rightly or wrongly this is what they believe and have had enough of this.
      I’m not making a general statement here but it’s what I hear when this matter comes up for debate wherever I am and whenever I find myself party to another discussion on the intricacies of Irish politics :P

      Reply
    • broken record gary
      lots of people have answered the question u ask,
      yet u keep asking it.

      u say the ‘vast majority’ of the loan is soverign debt?
      what, loike, 90% would u say,
      or maybe 95% gary?
      do tell

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    • Dermot as I keep pointing out…
      Taxes + Troika 15 billion = Government services + PS Pay + Social Welfare
      Then we get additional money to pay bondholders etc.
      So none of ‘our’ money is being spent on bonds etc. it’s all borrowed along with that 15 billion for the deficit.
      It is a fact that most of the money we will be repaying is for our overspending and not the banks. But I wouldn’t expect anyone to take my word for it, so how about Seamus Coffey, Lecturer in Economics at University College Cork.
      http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2011/11/deficit-and-banks.html
      “If we do a simple counterfactual and magic away the €62.5 billion we have pumped into the banks, the projected deficit for 2012 would fall from €13.6 billion to €12.8 billion or 8.0% of GDP. Eliminating the effect of the bank payments would knock 5% off the deficit; 95% of next year’s deficit is not related to the bank payments.”
      Joseph do you consider 95% the vast majority? as I certainly do.

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    • so, ur trying to tell me that from all ‘our’ debt
      5% of it is banking?

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    • cause if it is 5% of debt,
      we clearly owe a lot more than i thought…….

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    • Joseph the percentage to be paid on the banking debt will go up but the reality still remains that most of the money we borrowed is from our day to day overspending. So most of the money we will pay back is from our day to day overspending. I’m no fan of what the banks did but they are really not our biggest problem.

      Reply
    • David 23/03/12 #

      @ Dermot and others; Some FACTS here for ye instead of all the propaganda you seem to have been fed. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0323/1224313766388.html

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    • David :)
      You should really go and educate YOURSELF. 1+1= 2 always did always will. It is just not sensible to keep borrowing to pay of an unsustainable debt. I really am not going to listen to or read any more of your negativity.

      Reply
    • David 23/03/12 #

      @ Susie. Are YOU really calling me the negative one? How ridiculous is that when you are one of the biggest moaners on the Journal! Obviously you didn’t bother to read the article that i posted for you and you prefer to follow like a sheep the propoganda that you are fed by the don’t pay brigade!

      Reply
    • David .
      Yes . I am seriously telling you that I find your comments full of negativity. There is noithing I can do about it if you do not like that but there you have it. Your comments to me are very untrue and very ungentlemanly . but there is no accounting for manners . So David I shall have to agree to disagree with you.

      Reply
  • CJ Ryan 22/03/12 #

    If the government is Marie Antoinette… will they lose their heads?

    I like where this is going.

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  • Is this user:

    (A) Enda Kenny
    (B) Brian Cowen
    (C) Bertie Ahern
    (D) All of the above

    Reply
  • mark,
    i don’t feel obliged to offer you any solutions whatsoever.

    i would recommend you contact someone in the gubbermint.

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  • Joe, Keep up the good work.

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  • I’d rather eat Marie Antoinette’s cake than Eamonn Gilmores shit!

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  • Mark O’F
    With respect , you are abroad and have lost touch with the realities of day to day living here ,

    Kerry
    Leaving cert is €116.

    Dermot,
    Bertie Aherne drank, (allegedly),smoked (allegedly) and backed horses (under oath)
    What is your point ?
    I am not any party member but FF/FG/ lab all done for in my opinion.

    Reply
  • keep up the pressure Mr Higgins let’s bring this crowd of liars down and make them see sense

    Reply
  • Fantastic and realistic comment by Higgins.
    Our government summed up in that one sentence!

    Reply
  • David 22/03/12 #

    Why can’t we all just get along. So many angry people on here!

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  • You’re a fool mark my response to you is a on the comment above for some reason unbeknown to me

    Reply
  • Can I eat some cake then? Bread is so over rated ;)

    Reply
  • O'Reilly 22/03/12 #

    Skeowlan, next year we’re ALL sheep…

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  • Ferris talking about criminalising people – well now for once he is qualified to voice his option as he is an expert on things criminal. I suppose at least we have somebody in the Dail that knows what they are talking about.

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  • And of course there’s nothing delusional about Joe’s politics at all…

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  • I’m centre right, always have and always will.

    I’ll happily listen to anyone with sensible policies – Joe and his party have none – they offer nothing credible in return for all their hot air. Its very easy to be a nay sayer, anyone can criticise. Higgins, and his party have a completely ridiculous economic policy that would disastrous for the country.

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    • In case you haven’t noticed but we have slipped back into recession under the stewardship of the FG/Labour circus…..
      Maybe it’s FF’s fault again, or the solar flare…I’m sure you can find someone else to blame eh?

      Reply
  • Regardless of who is in power, a property tax would be introduced anyway. This was a condition of bailout. In its proper value based form next year, it will cost significantly more than $100…

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  • Have to say I agree Mark. He is without doubt the most annoying waster in the dail. For the record He does not represent the irish peoples welfare…
    He represents people who dont work generally or never have. Joe would take every penny people on decent incomes earn and give them to wasters so they can drink more cans of tennents, smoke more dodgy cigs and bet more on the horses.
    Cant stand the man..

    Reply
    • Declan !
      After our lovely honest discussion the other evening on another thread ,you are back to selling ”de party line” again :) I am disappointed , but I still hold out some hope for you , because there was a chink of light in our chat :) Enjoy your day .

      Reply
  • The illusion that we shouldn’t have a household charge – based on the cost/value/size of the home is ridiculous. Ireland had a domestic rate till the 70s and ff gave it away to try yo won an election majority.
    We will have a larger payment next yr and the 100 will seem like the lesser of two
    Also its interesting joe Higgins is defending the right not to pay tax on private property seeing as his party believes no one should own property!

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  • Eamon, I’d go with “D”

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  • No I emigrated, so I have every right to comment on this. With all of your name calling you still haven’t offered an alternative to me. Not surprising

    Reply
  • No I don’t live in the country anymore Stephen but I am originally from D15. I’m aware that he’s very active locally but he’s not the only one who does that. Easy to do good things on a local level, another things doing it nationally.

    Fair enough he takes an average wage, but then again thats his choice and mainly due to the fact that he needs to get re-elected, he has to appeal to the electorate that voted him in which are predominantly from working class areas.

    Reply
    • Are you genuinely being serious? Some of the things you say actually baffle me, your saying things just for something to say or so it seems. You’re entitled to your opinion but you seem hugely misinformed and completely and utterly ….. Silly.

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    • Mark O ‘ F
      If you are from D.15 as you say you are , what have you done for your area ? Did you get involved ? Or were you one of those people who looked through their windows from behind the curtains and laughed at any one who tried to do good,who ever they are? Did you ignore crime for instance or report it when / if it came to your attention? Did you check on you less able or well off neighbours ? Did you partake in local social events? Or did you just get out while the getting was good ? Grow up and stop belittling people who are genuine.

      Reply
  • Either am I Kerry – as I said above, I’ll listen to anything sensible – i’m just sick of hearing how poorly the government are doing, yet when I hear soundbites from Higgins and the like, its just nit picking at small issues in the grand scheme of things. I can’t find them credible I’m afraid after seeing their programme for government in the last election.

    Reply
  • L 22/03/12 #

    I guarantee Joe has paid it because the govt will use the public figures as examples when they start handing out fines for non payment.

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    • You guarantee Joe Has paid or you guarantee Joe will pay it? Which is it?and how do you know? Inside information?! Member of FG are we? Back up that statement I would like to know!? As would Joe Higgins.

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    • Oh please, Joe Higgins has already served time for standing up for his principles. I know its hard for FG/FF/LAB to understand what it means to do when elected what you promised in your manifesto, but Joe will do that. He will be the last person to pay it. Sheeple, yes men and cowards will pay, everyone else will stand together against a tax FG/LAB both promised to oppose in their election manifestoes and have no mandate to impose.

      Reply
    • Mark ….Where is your proof ?

      Reply

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