Come on Marlon, who do you think pulls the strings? Enda/Bertie et al? or the banks?

As a democracy .. Aren’t the people.

thats the theory..the practise would suggest otherwise..

For Adolphs only.

So what would you cut and how would you raise money? Typical narrow minded lefty. You wouldn’t just give your money away so why should Germany? And in relation to the banks, if they went under no-one would lend to us.

“And in relation to the banks, if they went under no-one would lend to us.”

John, all you’ve done around here is fire off clichés without backing them up. Care to explain your latest one please?

That’s not a cliche, that’s a fact. It keeps being repeated because it’s true. Of more concern should be meaningless platitudes.

If its such an irrefutable fact than I’m sure one of you can explain why…..

It all comes down to whether anyone is going to want to lend to a country which has already burned bondholders. The answer is no. Our credit rating would be shot. This means the only people who would lend to us would demand extortionate interest rates. That’s why Greece is so banjoed, they can’t afford to borrow.

John go educate yourself instead of just quoting corrupt self serving TDs who don’t care about you, you will be disappointed to know.

So Julie, despite having a masters in economics and being a qualified accountant, I need to further educate myself?

Are you genuinely saying that people who have previously been burned by a country are going to ignore it and lend to us again? And these people won’t worry we borrow €`13B every year on top of that? That’s the real world, it’s peoples money at the end of the day and they don’t have to lend it to us.

Thought so John, you can only explain your cliche with more cliches. It was guaranteeing private banking debt that forced us out of the bond markets in the first place. Our ability to repay loans to the sovereign given our level of indebtedness is what determines the rates we can borrow at, not whether or not bondholders lose their money on bad bets with private banks. Accepting bondholders losses and converting them to sovereign debt INCREASES our cost of borrowing as it decreases the likelihood we can meet future commitments. Burning bondholders is merely obeying the rules of capitalism.

You’ve either swallowed the spin or are shilling for FFG

Dear of dear.

Well I studied contract law and the 3.1 billion that is leaving our economy in 4 weeks is illegal , no where in the contract between bank and private investors did it say that if the bank can’t pay the debt than the Irish taxpayer will, therefore the government under the law acted illegally transferring the debt to us ! Surely if you studied what you say you studied you can agree with me on that ?

Yes Julie, if the banks weren’t nationalized or if we didn’t guarantee the bondholders. But we did, I don’t agree with it but they are now all public debt. The bond markets don’t distinguish now between banking debt and budgetary debt.

And in relation to your bit about nationalising, of course a government can privatise and nationalise companies if the market accepts it.

Actually, having just read your latest post I’m going to assume you maybe did a module in college called contract law.

” no where in the contract between bank and private investors did it say that if the bank can’t pay the debt than the Irish taxpayer will, therefore the government under the law acted illegally transferring the debt to us”

1)What contract between bank and private investor? They buy bonds. That’s it. That is the contract.
2) Under what law did the government act Illegally?

Fool.

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/Q-_IR_yNg7c

John I have read a lot of your comments and I think you need to do a refresher course !

@ Julie – you didn’t respond to either of my points as to your inaccuracies.

John I listen to them not you ! Check the link !

Iceland – need I say more.

Try Denmark and Latvia who have also burnt bondholders!

Seeing as how everyone is saying here how The Germans have achieved now econocally what they were unable to militarily then consider this: “Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it” – Hitler. I am not implying that what everyone is saying is a lie but to say that just because everyone is saying it does not make it true; everyone on the planet once believed that the world was flat but that did not make it so!!!! Stop parroting people!!!!

Hear hear. The EU is turning into the most undemocratic democracy ever! Tanks and banks, same out come less fatalities. She’s off her auto bann

Yeah, sure who needs her money anyway.

As Paul Murphy MEP has pointed out, if we default on our national debt and tax the rich, we jump straight into a budget SURPLUS. No need for any more austerity.

He said so on the week in politics over the weekend so it must be true.

Our deficit last year was 18 billion……including the cost to the echequer of our banking debt, which was 18 billion.

Would you like to borrow an abacus david?

Higgins, as you well know, we we FORCED to accept bailing out private banks as a condition of the loan. We, the irish taxpayer, have essentially saved Europes banking system from collapsing… Tell me this is not true!!!!!!!!???

Do you always have to trot out the party line? Have you no mind of your own???
I genuinely feel sorry for you David. I know yer a young fella and Enda Kenny et al should be ashamed of themselves for allowin some of our youth to become indoctrinated into a party that lied its ass off to get into power.

Fine Gael?? … Friggin ‘Continuity Fianna Fail’ is all yis are

@David

I have to agree with Joseph. David, nothing personal as I’m sure you’re a sound man outside of all this political dialogue. However you constantly post here only to get bad responses from the Irish populace. If you want to succeed in politics do you not think you should get the people onside and not as Joseph said ‘trot the party line’?
I mean it will be the average disenfranchised man/woman on the street that will be casting votes. Just sayin.

So Michael, you’re saying David should push empty populist soundbites in order to garner support from the uninformed masses, rather than the difficult politics he believes in? In an article about Hitler’s rise to power? There’s a lesson in there somewhere.

Comparing Hitler to Merkel is an insult to the millions who died under the Nazi regime.

That’s not a mindless party line. That’s a basic understanding of history.

Yes, Ireland’s bailouts stopped contagion to continental banks but most importantly it stopped the collapse of our own banking system and the catastrophe that would have been.

And the negative responses are not from “the irish populace” they’re from TheJournal readership which according to recent polls on this site comprises mainly of left wing independents and Sinn Féin supporters.

The thumbs mean nothing on this site

@David

I speak for myself who is not right/left or a sinn fein supporter. I’m just an average family man and father of one. The journal you will find is composed primarily of men and women such as myself and the same goes for the breakingnews website and Irish times online. These are the sites where we get to publish our views and in some cases yes lash out against our deeply unpopular government despite the polls. So yes David the thumbs actually do count. Apologies if my above comment came across as a personal dig at you as it was’nt meant to be. Michael

Rothschilds are the origin of this banking problem. Make no mistake and for godsake, educate yourself. And i mean that in a nice way.

Winston

Here is how we got dragged in.

German banks lent to Irish banks.
Irish banks lent to property developers.
The peoperty developers built to many properties.
To many properties ment lower prices happened which ment the property developers could not pay back the Irish banks.
So the Irish banks could not pay back the German banks.
The German banks said oh thag is a problem but you signed a contract to pay the money back.
So the Irish Banks went to the Irish Finance Minister (a man of Law not Finance) and he said yes Irish Bank you must pay the German bank.
So the Irish Bank said to the man of Law but we do t have it can we borrow from you?
The man of Law said how much do you need.
The Irish Bank said oh about 6 billion should be okay.
So the man of Law said okay we will cover your loans.
But then other people said to the Irish Banks you also owe us money.
So the Irish Banks went back to the man of Law and said we cannlt add we owe 60 billion can we have that?
The man of Law looked at the contract we had with the Irish Banks which said we will cover your loans.
So the man of Law went to the European Bank and said can I have 60 billion in the name of the Irish people so I can pay for the loans I agreed to pay for he Irish banks.
So the Europen Banks German directors said sure why no.
That is how we got into the mess because Irish Banks cant add and a man of Law did not put a limit into the contract on the ammount he said he would pay for the Irish Banks.

Am I the only one kind of disturbed by a post blaming the Rothschilds for an economic collapse in a response to this particular article? I mean, I’m assuming that you’re blaming them because they’re bankers rather than because they’re Jewish but still… there are times and places for that. And an article about the Nazis, who used the perceived economic power of Jews, including the Rothschilds, as a way of of demonising them during Germany’s economic travails after WWI and then the Wall Street Crash, is not the place for that, in my opinion.

Sad to say, all the New World Order and Evil Conspiring Bankers conspiracy theories are fundamentally just vehicles for anti-semitism. It’s very sad that the majority of people pushing and repeating these theories as fact are probably not even aware hat they were designed as vehicles for anti-semitism. I might as well repeat myself yet again; pretty much all of the anti-German posts here are declaring that Germany has some wish to crush freedom and culture throughout Europe, and are rolling their secret and never-retired agenda to dominate and enslave the known world, but are using the very same arguments and rhetoric that were used by the National Socialists in Germany which lead to Hitler’s rise 80 years ago. How unreflective can people really be?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion. Any of this sound similar to the usual posts here?

Maybe, but I’ll tell you this – it truely is soul destroying when knowing that it has only taken 2 generations for Ireland to hand its sovereignty over to another foreign power.

Don’t understand why people are red thumbing this point.
Romas, Slavs, Disabled and Homosexuals were targetted.
20 Million died in the Soviet Union alone. Yet non of this is deemed worthy to highlight?
Appears 1 life is worth more than another

I think the people are red thumbing it because the Jewish were killed just for being Jewish, but say American soldiers were killed because they fought back.

Rory

So were Gays, Roma, Disabled and arguably Slavs and Poles.

Yeah, she’s no better than Hitler herself, lending us money like that.

Lending us money at a punitive rate to cover german banks losses for them

Jaysus, take back the european of the year award off edna, we have a new winner….

Wonder why? Oh yes, a democracy with citizens who have a strong work ethic and a society that doesn’t allow life style dolers.

You will be out of work soon enough Hat Tipper.Why you ask take a look across the Atlantic .Hope your planting a few spudz .

There’s a fair few “social welfare as lifestyle” followers in Germany I’m afraid. They’ve tightened up the rules but those who were eligible before the new legislation are still entitled to the old deal. Why do people think that the “entitled welfare class” is only an issue in Ireland?

@stephen- and a society without Fianna Fáil. Much easier to prosper without ineptitude and corruption at the top.

Stephen. You don’t exactly look like a fellow with a strong work ethic or get up and go, unless it is to the Kitchen. Haven’t you made a fortune over the years from your FF Govt. adviser work etc. You would have as much to lose as any other chair crusher.

“Now watch as I do with banks what ze Fuhrer couldn’t do with tanks….”

Apologies Steve, was meant as a standalone post.

Ah its worth a green thumb

What? Because she doesn’t want her people to have to just keep giving us money? Yeah, what a b*tch. How dare she ask us to stop wasting the money they’re lending us.

Yea John, shes terrific the way she loaned us, was it 40 odd billion that was private banking debt, then got converted into public debt, and went straight back into french and german banks,,,,, pull yer head outta where the sun don’t shine

@Joseph – She didn’t demand we take their money. We could have done an Iceland and let the banks fail. What everyone forgets is the people with savings in the Icelandic banks lost significant amounts of their money. Blame FF, not Merkel for our borrowings due to our CBD.

Ridiculous comment…. we deserve to be held to ransom… we have squandered billions of EU money over the years and were known as the begging men of Europe. Why should the German taxpayer not expect tight terms and conditions in relation to their money being used to prop up banana republics like ourselves, the Greeks etc

Really???? and there was me thinking that the moey we needed to bridge the gap between our yearly deficit didn’t come with the codition that we, the irish public, didnt bail out the banks too…….

Ur right tho,, we should have absolutely done ‘An Iceland’

Tom, of any possible ridiculous comments,,,, yours takes pole position

She’s the only one trying to bring countries ’round to encourage them to live within their means, instead of continuous deficit!! Why should Germans pay? Crazy logic¿

@rp,so your quiet happy we are paying them and our interest pays over 20% of eu debt.
On 30billion loan we pay 18billion interest

The truth hurts, I suppose.

Another perspective might be that Europe, through the signing of the Treaty of Rome in 1957, has helped enormously in focusing countries on collaboration and cooperation through increasing trade.
I am really appreciative of the fact the in my generation, peace has reigned. What war must have been like for those affected, is too difficult to imagine. Whatever about our enormous economic difficulties, peace must reign above everything else, if possible

New account 2 posts = troll!

@John Duggan, you’ve a short memory, let me refresh it for you…Germany’s banks took a gamble on Irish bank loans. Essentially German banks bet that the housing market in Ireland would continue to grow, when that turned out not to be the case, the German government turned to the Irish government and essentially said “We know you aren’t really liable for this but your banks need to guarantee that our banks losses are covered… by the way, we are way bigger than you” then the Irish government said “actually I don’t think they can” to which Germany replied “Well you better come up wwith the cash from somewhere or we’ll knee cap you, you know all about that in Ireland ya?” to which Fianna Fail said “No prob we’ll Guarantee the debt at a Government level even if the banks can’t do it” Then the whole sordid affair with Anglo came to light and the banks now guaranteed by the government needed a loan to pay back these debts. Germany’s loss become our banks issue, (which loand out too much money to finance growth of an unsustainable industry) , the banks issue became the Irish government’s issue and then the Irish taxpayer’s problem in turn. Never really becoming the German government’s problem, actually they got some interest out of it in return…bonus!

Yea four legs good, two legs bad !

And game Labour for perpetuating it.

european union is what hitler wanted.

Thats a bit disingenuous of you John. The people in Iceland also had mortgage debt forgiveness of up to 110% of a property’s value. Nobody walked away unscathed, particularly not the bankers and politicians. And while the average Joe lost money, knowing that those who were responsible for that loss were locked up helped the medicine taste slightly less bitter.

What evil Racist comments we can make and support. Angela Merkel is right. The Irish equivalent of the Nazis could be formed here tomorrow with some of the revolting contributions here!

Hitler was more about racial purity than conquering foreign lands. He only perpetuated the latter to achieve the former. The EU in all of It’s political correctness can hardly be described as being ‘racially pure’!!!!

“Some predictably banal and uninformed comments from certain posters above who wish to brand Dr Merkel as some bogeyman out to seek the destruction of Europe. ”

Distruction? No. Most powerful leader of a federalised europe with germany calling the shots? Yes.

“she’s not prepared to use Germany’s wealth to prop up a European regime that cannot reform itself.”

Well shes no problem using Irelands wealth to prop up germanys banking debt.

“Germans are very touchy about being labelled as imperialists given their not too distant history”

Well then they need to vote her out first chance they get, don’t they?

Do you not realise that Germany would much rather not be in the position as you say of “calling the shots” its foreign policy since the end of WWII has be one of reticence to become overly engaged in international issues for fear of being labelled as expansionists. A fundamental principle of their foreign policy however has been an unwavering commitment to the ‘European project’ which has given the continent over 60 years of uninterrupted peace, its belief in the EU rather than a want to “call the shots” is what’s behind Germany’s current position. Caricaturing Dr Merkel or Germany as a whole is not the best way to understand their views.

“Do you not realise that Germany would much rather not be in the position as you say of “calling the shots”

Is your name not a bit Irish to be speaking on behalf of the German people??

Judging people by their name?

Just making the point that its unlikely that Mr. Dunne is the official spokesperson for the german people.

I have a German name. Would you say I’ve no right to say something that I think representative of the people in Ireland?

Of course not Nikolas…………………..if you were Minister for foreign affairs for Ireland, or employed i a role otherwise to speak on behalf of this nation.

But no one has said that they are “speaking on behalf of the nation”, it is only you who have said that. People are expressing opinions. For all you know, “Mr Dunne” is a well-informed German citizen with an Irish name. Or an Irishman interested in European politics and who has informed himself on the views of the German government and the general opinions of the German public. You jumped to a very tentative conclusion and punched under the belt when you punched below the belt when you gave a snarky line about his name. If you’re going to argue against what he said, then do that. But don’t resort to cheap shots. It makes you look far prettier tan him, which I doubt was you intention ( you don’t strike me as a masochist. )

Did you just call Obama a fascist…

Eh David, I think you might have replied to Tim in error. I read his sentence over and over but can’t seem to find the word Obama or even the word president.

He is fascist who pretends to lean to the left.See David what you see is brand Obama and that’s good enough for you but others like to see what brand Obama is actually doing in the U.S through policy and it aint pretty he’s still using Bush policys and not only is he using them he’s pushing them harder than Bush himself.What are you learning in college what are the youth being thought in college .Scarry stuff .

Same here Michael,,,, think i read it 10 times just to be sure to be sure,, thought maybe me dotage had finally caught up on me.. thankfully thats not de case.. Nope, no mention of Obama,, im 99% sure of dat!

Obama is signing one law after another and most of the folks aren’t even aware of it..

Firstly, as president Obama is well within his normal rights and powers as president to sign laws for certain aspects of government with varying degrees of impact on society it is up to citizens to make sure they are informed of these changes as if we in Ireland hear about them then they must also certainly experience the publicity about the laws in the US.

Secondly, why is it when a potical leader such as king, president, taoiseach, prime minister, or what ever has left or rather even left of centre beliefs is he or she always considered taking their nation down the road of fascism. I don’t say this in support or against of the above comment regarding trends in te US but rather i wish to understand te reasoning behind what appears to be a ‘knee jerk’ reaction to branding administrations / heads of state in this manner!!!

Ahem I think you should maybe look into who owns the banks of today (goldman sachs rockefellers chase morgan, one common denominator )

@Lee

You are sort of correct, but Eugene’s spot on. If you want to know who’s dominating us and the majority of EU countries do like the old saying and ‘follow the money’.

“Ahem I think you should maybe look into who owns the banks of today”

Germany does not have to own the banks to use the banking crisis to control europe, any more than you would need to own the gun you have pointing at my head to make me do what you say.

Hmmm, Germany is the only country where genocide was attempted? Really? Maybe it was a matter of lacking the means rather than being of a higher moral stature. The majority of the posts on the article are about as vile in intent as what they supposedly condemning. We as Irish people have absolutely no right to take the moral high ground.

Problem is, what constitutes “your heritage, your country and your people” is highly debatable – ask a cross section of Northern Irish, or Belgians, or inhabitants of Barcelona (or many others – those are the first examples that came to mind) what their heritage, country and people are and you’ll get dramatically different answers. Or early 20th century German Jews for that matter – to most, Germany was their country and Germans their people.

Secondly, ‘National Socialism’, despite the name, was not in any way socialist, which sort of invalidates your first point. The Nazis wouldn’t have come to power if they hadn’t managed to persuade people that they would act as a bulwark against communism/socialism.

We weren’t always a happy, friendly place either – certainly not to the Jewish refugees that we sent back to Nazi-occupied Europe.

Actually, this entire post is a really bizarre reading of history.

Enlighten the commentators with your own unique knowledge, instead of insults please.

The thing about sheep at least they live in reality and are not bothered about a series 7 beamer .

Offer them a 7 Series and they’d snatch it very bloody quickly. Don’t play the Yeats “noble peasant” line, just because people complain it doesn’t make them saints. Everyone likes shiny expensive new toys. People complain because they’re unhappy, and that’s fine. But if people only complain, and inadvertently are offensive and bigoted in the complaints because they haven’t focused on where the blame really lies, well, that can’t be justified by righteous indignation. People are sheep if they mindlessly repeat the government line, and they’re just as much sheep when they mindlessly repeat the anti-government line.

But people are never sheep; people are humans. And they deserve to be treated with respect and courtesy, irrespective of their political views or their propensity to repeat what others have told them. The fact that this article was originally about the Nazi regime and holocaust really should focus people on the fact that human beings must always be treated as human beings, and not simply as cannon fodder for opposing political views.

21 million Russians you mean?

Yes, we were the happy country that sent condolences to the Germans on
news of Hitler’s death.

Standard operating procedure for neutral counties. Don’t read too much into it.

The problem is that no other neutral country sent condolences after Hitler’s suicide.

Are you sure? I would say that quite a few did.

A mate of mine just emailed me about this. According to him, on the death of US President FDR, Dev went in person to offer his condolences to the US Ambassador. This was on April 12, 1945. When Hitler died on April 30 of the same year, this put Dev in a dilemma. Ireland was ( for internal political reasons ) still “nominally” neutral ( officially at least ), so Dev felt obliged, in order to publicly maintain neutrality, to offer condolences on the death of an axis leader to balance out the condolences offered on the death of a leader of the allies less than a month previously. It looks embarrassing now, but, in context, it’s more a scene from “the thick of it” than any signal of moral bankruptcy.

Those who are considering voting for FF remember they have NO SHAME A Pathetic apology an still have all the swagger of a party that just saved a nation not Sold it and left the dead carcus to be picked at by the I.M.F. .Then you have ex FF S.A’s coming on here giving out about free loaders on the dole after his party put them there.I dont care who you vote for just remember the UNAPOLOGETIC ARROGANCE of these people and their policies .FF sold our country traitors and mercenaries for hire in the political world.

Hey Stephen, FF Govt. adviser, FF appointed Semi-state director, FF Govt. appointed Peace Commissioner. Famous for charging the state 3250 for hosting a FF TD’s website.

You and your party associates certainly blitzkrieged the Irish economy. SME owners should cross the street if they see you or them coming.