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Dublin: 7 °C Thursday 23 May, 2013

Teachers’ unions criticise allowance decisions as cuts to salary

The Irish National Teachers’ Organisation says enforcing cuts originally introduced in the Budget means a third successive pay cut.

Sheila Nunan of the INTO said the government could not defend a system where teachers were paid different amounts for the same work.
Sheila Nunan of the INTO said the government could not defend a system where teachers were paid different amounts for the same work.
Image: Laura Hutton/Photocall Ireland

THE TRADE UNION representing Ireland’s primary school teachers has criticised yesterday’s reviews of public service allowances, saying the decision not to reverse allowances suspended in the last Budget is tantamount to a third annual cut in teachers’ pay.

The Irish National Teachers’ Organisation said decisions to cap qualification allowances for new entrants to the teaching system means primary teachers have been hit harder through successive cutbacks than other public servants.

“While qualification allowances are abolished, new teachers will start on the fourth point of the salary scale,” the union’s general secretary Shiela Nunan said.

“In addition, all teachers who carry out supervision duties will continue to be paid the supervision allowance. This means the starting salary for new teachers, including a supervision allowance, will now be €32,294.

Three years ago a similarly newly-employed teacher could expect a wage of €39,195 – meaning a gross pay cut of 17 per cent in the last three years.

The pay could have been lower, however, as supervision allowances – an extra allowance paid to teachers in return for giving up breaks in order to supervise in the schoolyard at lunch break – had been retained, having been identified as previously being up for abolition.

Nunan said the pay now being offered to new teachers did not reflect the academic standard of new teachers in Ireland, who she said had been recognised as among the highest achievers, in academic terms, in the world.

She argued that it was not possible to defend a system where younger teachers were paid significantly less than only slightly more experienced peers who were doing exactly the same work.

The union said it would continue to work towards reducing inequalities among teachers’ salaries.

Public Sector Allowances:

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Comments (142 Comments)

  • Because Croke Park is protecting existing teachers, the only action open to the Gov is to manage future costs – new entrants. If the teachers union are concerned that this creates a two tier poor moral environment then let them stand up in defence of these new entrants and share the burden…

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  • No need to make excuses. Teachers do a great job my niece when she comes home she works all evening setting up work for the following day. Their day dosent end when school is over they are responsible for teaching our youth so don’t knock them.

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  • The biggest inequity for new teachers is the greed of existing teachers. Teachers unions have protected outdated work practices for years -eg Enda Kenny, Micheal Martin, Michael Noonan etc holding their full time teaching positions for years blocking a new teacher’s appointment.

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  • I don’t understand why new teachers start on the fourth point of a scale, what are the first three points for?

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    • The scale is for all public servants. The first three points represent unqualified positions.

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    • I think the Unions and the teachers they represent are a disgraceful shower of selfish low life. Talk about looking after yourselves and giving two fingers to the next generation of teachers. And then to pretend to be concerned about the much lower salaries and allowances new teachers are starting off on. Do they think the general public are completely stupid? I just hope that new teachers ditch those unions, and form a new group that just might actually represent them. In fact I’d go as far in saying that any young person starting off in work in this country should point blank refuse to join any of the mainstream unions. It’s time the young people of this country got together and forced change.

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    • Is it typically Irish to have scales for unqualified teachers? Are there scales for unqualified brain surgeons, any teacher complaining about minor salary cuts should visit one of those (only joking).

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    • “The scale is for all public servants. The first three points represent unqualified positions.”

      If you read David’s comments (just 2 comments above) you might understand.

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    • @Rodrigo

      “I think the Unions and the teachers they represent are a disgraceful shower of selfish low life.” So every existing teacher in the country is a low life? Way to generalise. By the way. Irish teachers rejected the Croke Park deal first time round only to be told by our unions to vote again in the very Irish tradition of voting until we give the right answer.

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  • You only get 32k a year if you get a full time job- you could be 5 years subbing or working half hours before you get that (now more than ever) most young teachers I know earn about what they’d get on the dole of you spread it out over the year- you’re welcome to join the profession of it’s so attractive…

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  • JosieM 19/09/12 #

    I am shocked at the amount of bitterness towards teachers in these comments. I am a newly qualified teacher, and have spent almost 6 years studying to be qualified, getting an undergraduate degree and a postgrad diploma. As part of teacher training, students are required to do various blocks of teaching practice in the classroom so we are far from “inexperienced”. While studying, I experienced different types of jobs, from bar work to retail to office work. Having worked long hours in the private sector, I can say that I have never been so exhausted as I was after a school day teaching 33 6 year olds. This I before I had to correct work, write detailed plans for the next day, and hand make my own teaching resources. I am not complaining, this is the norm for teachers, and I love my job. So many people join in the teacher bashing when they have no idea how much work and commitment goes into the job (even during our “two months off”!).
    At the moment, I am an unemployed teacher and I spend my days preparing plans and resources hoping that the phone will ring and I will be called in to sub.
    There seems to be a complete lack of respect for teachers here, don’t forget these are YOUR children being educated, is that not important to you?
    In my position, I would gladly take any salary, but to be earning 30% less than my colleague who graduated a year earlier is ludicrous. Equal pay for equal work.

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    • Mursh 19/09/12 #

      Well JosieM you better get well used to it. Don’t forget this is Ireland after all. The land of begrudgery. Piece of advice…. Don’t try to defend yourself here or anywhere else online as no matter what you do to try and justify yourself some vindictive s**ts will still try to attack and belittle you.

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  • Pay peanuts, get monkeys. It’s true for any job out there. Nobody is doubting that the jobs will be taken but the quality of candidate will go down. It’s an undeniable fact of business. And these are the people who will be teaching your children.

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    • But if they pass their exams how can the “quality of candidate ” go down. Heard this argument too before and the scare mongering. So if new teachers get lower pay or pay cuts they will be some kind of lesser teacher that punish kids by bad teaching?????????????? Bull***t Plenty teachers out there will be only too happy to teach and will do a better job at it than those used to the gravy train.

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    • Primary school: what exams?
      Secondary school: if this was a thread about JC & LC I’m sure many would be talking about how worthless those exams are.

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    • College exams are generally marked on a curve, same as the Junior and Leaving cert. So if there are lower quality candidates then the marking is more generous. If the candidates are of a higher quality then the marking is stricter. The overall result statistics rarely change by much.

      Nobody said anything about punishing the kids with bad teaching. That’s your own fabrication. I’ll try and explain it to you simply. The benefits of being a teacher are reduced so the smarter and more capable teachers decide to work in the private sector where they earn more. The overall standard of new teachers goes down because the better people aren’t going into the profession as it’s less desirable. As such, the standard of education goes down overall.

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    • Tommy I am talking about Teachers Exams as in passing them to become a teacher.

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    • another condescending ass hole comment. You don’t have to explain anything “simply” to me. I have an education thank you. You are just another example of the arrogance in the teaching field. Thank God I never had teachers with your attitude.

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    • Then I think Sean has answered your question.

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    • “The Better People” Just look at the language you are using Sean. So there are better teachers as opposed to what?. Exactly what I already said. Its your logic.

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    • As opposed to worse teachers. Fairly simple. Also why are you assuming that everyone who corrects your pointless rants is a teacher?

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    • “pointless rants” as opposed to your what ????????????? Twaddle

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    • You’ve just proved why things have to be explained simply to you. You’re obviously too emotional to engage in any kind of logical debate. I’ll just assume you are one of the recently qualified and unemployed teachers who feel the could do a better job than everyone else.

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  • No need for you all to worry. The amount of teachers getting a full time job straight out of college is virtually zero. Most will spend several years scrambling for minimal sub hours before they get anywhere near a full time job.

    And for information purposes sick leave across the public service has just been slashed by a binding labour court agreement. But sure rant away. It’ll make you feel better I’m sure.

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  • A starting salary of 32k for a new graduate is VERY generous. If I walked in to that salary after college wirh no experience I’d be feeling like I’d done very well!!

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  • 32k starting off?? Seems bloody good to me!

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  • I have several staff working for me, with undergraduate degrees, on €18,491.20 per year. No sick pay. 20 days holidays plus public holidays.

    My parents are retired teachers and worked for approximately 40 years each in the profession, so I have a lot of respect for teachers, but why are new teachers so special that they deserve to start on €32k per year rather than €22k?

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    • Mursh 19/09/12 #

      Please enlighten me as to what type of work these individuals do. Is it in any way similar to teaching a class of children,, or is it more akin to working in a popular fast food restaurant which incidentally pays around the same . .

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  • starting salary for graduates is generally between 23- 30. 32 is still to high for people with zero experience and only work for 9 months.

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    • That’s 32k if the give up their lunch breaks for a week each month. Would you work through your lunch break? As for no experience? There is a lot of on the job training in college then you have to do a full year in a classroom
      Before you get a degree. I am not a teacher but it really annoys me when you see bullshit comments like that by people who have no idea how much work teachers really do!

      Could you look after 25+ kids 5 days a week? Plus extra hours? Plus all the work (teaching plans, corrections, etc) that teachers have to do once the get home in the evening?

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    • @joseph….what about childcare workers? Physical hands on work with children, normally 8 hour days, 20 days holidays per year, no sick pay or pension and earning a little above minimum wage…plus majority of workers now spend 2 years in college training!!

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    • @Joseph Get bloody real. I often work through my lunch, work late, work weekends for no extra pay. Its called the real world. I can guarantee you I do more hours than any teacher for 12 months of the year and I wish I was on something close to 32k a year!

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    • How can you guarantee you do more work than any teacher for 12 months? What are you basing that on?

      Seems like you’re just another person on this thread confusing what teachers do/deserve with what you want from your own job. Seems like there’s a very low level of job satisfaction from thejournal.ie readers.

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    • But Joseph thats the mistake ye all keep making. I worked in a school for years and I do know what i am talking about and the above criticisms are true. I’m sorry its absolutely insane. I was in the gym yesterday and i met a teacher i worked with and she was with her SNA. They had 3 pupils?????????? 3 pupils and they stayed a half hour and left. I could write a book and I will blow the whole thing out of the water. This teacher is over 20 years in the job so you can imagine the pay scale she is on and the SNA is ten years there. Top wages for taking 3 kids to a gym to pass away an hour. And by the way they call that a “school programme”. Inspectors don’t care. They call to school shake hands talk to the principal and is gone. Done and dusted. There is NO Accountability. It is a special school for disadvantaged kids and attendance is very low. Yet the money paid to staff is wasteful. I had daily arguments overt this and tried to explain the waste in the system but was basically shot down and ignored as i was at the non teaching low pay end of things. I left because of the stress of trying to talk to the wall. They couldn’t care less as long as they got their big salary and allowances and their life styles left me gobsmacked. One teacher was all in a tizzy because she couldn’t get the same stone to build a dog kennel in the same style as her house??????????????? I am not joking. They lived on cloud 9. I got out of it because I felt it was wrong to be part of this rotten system where they kids came last not first as they would have you believe. I have proof written accounts of incidents dates and times and some day i will sent all this to the Dept and force them to do something about these people hiding behind a laber, Teacher, Civil Servant. there are genuinely hard working teachers out there but from my experience they are the tiny minority. Once new teachers realise the gravy train they are on the kids are secondary.

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    • Can’t wait for that book. Please make sure it’s proof edited though.

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    • Point 4 on the scale is for people who do a Bachelor of Education, which is 4 years training in college, a HDip in education (which is 9 months training or so) only gets you to point 2/3 I forget which. As this article is geared to Primary and not secondary conditions, most people who become Primary teachers do the 4 year course, the opposite of which applies to secondary.
      As regards your griping over the salary, its a salary, its a lump sum paid over the year, no matter how much work you actually do. Back in the day, teachers used to have to sign on over the summer months, to stop this, the government spread the salary out over the year. Which would you prefer?

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    • @christopher: when did I say I was a teacher? I’m displaying the arrogance of an unemployed sound engineer.

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    • @Christopher, like you said it was a special school. With low numbers, which probably meant it was easy enough for that teacher to manage. Please do not tar every teacher with the same brush. Obviously you had a very negative experience in the school you worked in. Teaching is not as easy in mainstream, let alone as easy to get into. Reforms are indeed needed in every sector, and to be honest, it should have been carried out when the country had the means to implement such, however the people in power at the time decided to throw money at the electorate in general like there is no tomorrow, so now the crowd that are in there have to clean up said mess.

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    • Point taken Keith. Yes I agree.

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    • @Tim Get down off your high horse and stop jumping to conclusions. I’m basing that on hearing the hours teachers work from themselves. I’m not confusing anything with what I want from my job, I was pointing out the simple fact that people in the private sector work equally hard if not harder for a lot less pay and when its our taxes paying for the salaries of public sector workers I think we’re entitled to ask questions on how that money is spent. That goes for all sectors of the public service too, I’ve nothing against teachers. (i.e. An allowance for civil servants who change the ink cartridge in a printer ffs! ridiculous!)

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    • @Ciaran: “I can guarantee you I do more hours than ANY teacher for 12 months of the year”, and you’re telling me not to jump to conclusions?

      “I was pointing out the simple fact that people in the private sector work equally hard if not harder for a lot less pay and when its our taxes paying for the salaries of public sector workers I think we’re entitled to ask questions on how that money is spent.”

      You are absolutely entitled to know how public spending is distributed. However, you did not even hint at that in your original comment. Your comment simply read as a bitch/moan without inputting any point or argument to the thread; the typical “well I work x amount of hours for x amount of pay why should someone who does a different job to me get more money etc etc etc” begrudger.

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    • Ah Tim, I think you’re just trolling… stop putting words in peoples mouth!
      You’re a sound engineer? I don’t think you’re that sound! :)

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  • 3 years ago teachers were STARTING on €39k!!! Jesus!! Throw in the 3 months holidays on top of that as well and any sympathy I had evaporates!

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  • Regardless of the pay issue, as previous poster has commented on, they are no teachers walking into full time jobs this year straight from training. Therefore the savings are zero. I have huge regard for teachers but 32k is very generous for graduates in the current climate.

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  • vanessa 19/09/12 #

    A weeks sick pay is better than nothing I totally agree.

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  • Teachers get 32k for 9 months of actual billed work. They work a hell of a lot more than that for the whole year. People see the holidays and think that’s what they actually do, go on holiday, not likely. Most teachers are working all night correcting homework, spending free time planning lessons, covering extra curricular activities and in some cases raising the children for society.

    Newer teachers are being shafted and many can’t afford to start out here as they are rarely given a contract longer than a year or for full time work in their first few years.

    I implore all of you to look up the acceptance speech of this years teacher of the year. Then try and say they don’t work hard.

    Yes newer teachers are less likely to volunteer time to anything beyond their work, but in this economy in an age when life goals are not as easily reached and we are constantly in touch with one another and our work, who could blame them for wanting to switch off. Children are coming into primary school hungry or not potty trained. Young adults are entering secondary level with poor literacy and numeracy.

    We always kick the teachers. Kick the actual Civil servants, the managers, the mandarins, and the elite gravy train politicians. Teacher bashing is a finely honed skill of a well lied to public, give it a break already.

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    • 3 months of for summer. 2/3 weeks Xmas. Easter break. Mid term break. Half day exams supervision 2/3 times a year, sports days etc etc etc etc. Sick days. Al fully paid for. Nice!!!

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    • “Teachers get 32k for 9 months of actual billed work.”
      That makes the €32k figure for graduates even more shocking.

      “Most teachers are working all night correcting homework”
      Really? Some time management skills need to be developed.

      “spending free time planning lessons”
      Okay, but surely this lesson plan can be reused some other time. After all, you’re following a set curriculum using textbooks.

      “covering extra curricular activities”
      Agreed and well done.

      “in some cases raising the children for society”
      Agreed and again, well done.

      “Newer teachers are being shafted”
      By the department and by their own union. As was suggested in another comment, new teachers should consider withdrawing from their current union and joining a new one.

      “Teacher bashing is a finely honed skill of a well lied to public”
      Absolutely.

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  • People blasting teachers really annoys me. They spend 4 years getting the qualification they need. In any other industry such as Engineering, this would allow you to work at a relatively high level, with the salary to match it (maybe not nowadays..).. Teachers choose to dedicate their lives to effectively minding your kids, helping them develop into (hopefully) well educated and well rounded people. Most of them do this in a classroom of 25+. Yes, full contact hours are 22 hours, but that does not indicate the background work that goes on to facilitate the contact hours. Try 45 hour working week. They deserve the salary they get, and the hols, well wouldnt we all choose a profession with 3/4 month paid hols if we could get it? Maybe stop compaining about how much they earn, the hols the have, and go do the work yourself and then see if it’s justified.

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    • Another one who wants to be “thanked” for going through college. We all did third level courses and don’t get a fraction of the wages and allowances of teachers. Is their college experience any less then yours? And another thing. YOU decided to go to college. Why should we be thankful you made a career choice? We all make career choices and we don’t expect the public to thank us for it. get real.

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    • By the way in the Real world. People start work at 8am and finish at 5 and that just flat hours.

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    • Neither of your arguments relate to anything Derek mentioned. He never asked to be “thanked” for going to college, he merely stated the fact that they have to first qualify before working. This is a fact.

      Your argument about working 8am to 5pm is pretty pointless too as Derek was referring to total hours per week. Not the start and end times of a working day.

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    • Tim are you Derek? I addressed the question to him not you.

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    • I think I’ve gotten under someone’s skin.

      http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/happy-pfftch-l.png

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    • @christopher where in my point did I look for “thanks” for going to college? I picked a career in Engineering and got on with it.. I never looked for thanks, mainly because I did it for me, Im not insecure about what I do, and I’m not jealous of careers others chose. You sound like a guy that works 8-5 and hates his job. dont be angry that others are in a position to be well paid and good holidays. Maybe you should direct some of that hatred to retraining and doing something you enjoy more… BTW, “real world”… what is that about?? Go stand in front of a class of 18 yr olds and try to teach them something… funny that you consider the teaching profession to be some sort of fairy land where people sing and dance all day.. Maybe you’re point of view would be different if you had a child with learning difficulties.

      @Tim, Im glad somebody can actually read a comment correctly and not come up with some bullshit conclusions from thin air.. There is hope… :)

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  • I work in the voluntary sector. I haven’t had a pay rise in three years. I work nights away from home and three out of four weekends. I don’t get any shift allowance and I don’t get any extra for working weekends. I get one week sick pay a year so after that if I end up out sick I don’t get a penny. I studied at university so like the teachers I have a high level of education. I get paid ?28,000/anum. I have pretty much had a pay freeze since I started in this job but it’s meant that the very much needed service I work in can stay open. Sometimes I wonder what the hell I’m working for but I need this job to pay my bills.
    I really don’t think the teachers are doing too bad at all!! Nice short days, very genorous holidays and a decent illness benefit package. I know they have a huge responsibility but so do I.
    It’s time that some people in the public sector got real!

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  • Ah, another thread about teachers: lots of uninformed comment, some informed comment, a little objectivity and a whole array of “poor me” stories posing as private sector martyrs.

    Can’t wait to finally get some work in teaching, the parent teacher meetings will be so much fun.

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    • …says Tomy Iona, an unemployed teacher not averse to the “poor me” style of argument!

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    • I’ve never attacked anyone for their job, and never will. I hope you can leave it to just one bitter statement this time Blathin.

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    • I love the arguments put forward by teachers to support their various causes. Most are not based on reason and thus cannot be supported with logic. Keep on blaming parents if it make one feel better but it does one’s cause(s) no good at all.

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    • Really Blathin? I don’t know why it is you feel the need to turn every comment into a tennis match?

      I never blamed parents for anything in this story (nor in others). But seeing as you’ve brought it up, I’ll clarify in case you once again latch on to a single element of someone’s point, filtering it through your interpretation of what they’ve said.

      In education, parents are a significant factor in attainment for pupils among many other factors. Though why you’ve brought it up puzzles me, that point seems to have no significant relevance in this particular story.

      You have your opinion and mine differs – do I have to start posting under a new account just to prevent you trying to constantly get the last word?

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    • Some Tomy Quotes – if you think teachers are bad “try home schooling”. His excuse for the big standards drop in educational standards was blamed on some parents who “show little interest in their own kid’s education”. Yeah Right!

      It is funny how it happens to be the “private sector martyrs” who pay teachers’ salaries , fund the education system and entire civil service yet Tomy Iona thinks it is OK to insult them! No evidence of logic or critical thinking abilities there.

      Alas, the same crapp under a different name will still be the same old crapp!

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    • I wondered how long it would take you to do exactly as I expected you would.

      I refer you to my previous post.

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    • Ah yer such a “public sector martyr”. I refer you to the court of public opinion and I am sure they will keenly provide some badly needed home-schooling.

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    • The Journal readership doesn’t represent the court of public opinion. Any journalistic publication has a certain type of readership generally.

      I refer you again to my post 2 replies ago.

      The one that said you’d try for the last word – you’ve tried.

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  • And 5 years ago a brick layer was earning €70,000+ a year. The teacher was still earning about €40-€50k. A starting salary of €32k for a teacher is very modest. After tax & levies are deducted I reckon you take home €400 per week. Hardly raking it in.

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    • now a brick layer is on 180 a week. what’s your point?

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    • According to the tax calculator on taxcalc.ie, a gross salary of €32k comes out as €26,325.36 after PAYE, PRSI and USC are deducted. That’s €506.26 each week. Factor in the holiday periods when their expenses should take a severe nosedive and I think it’s more than enough.

      Still not understanding why a brand new teacher, fresh out of college and with no experience deserves €32k each year.

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    • leaving college at 22 years old. thats decent money.

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    • You forgot the pension levy…

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    • Reg 19/09/12 #

      I’ve been working for almost 30 years. I now run my own business and will be lucky to pay myself 20k this year. Fortunately the other half is permanent and pensionable in the public sector!

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    • Deductions from teachers salary are, pension, spouses and children, pension related deduction (which is different to pension contribution), paye, prsi, usc and union fees which take a teachers salary way below what people think they take home. There’s no point trying to give actual figures because the numbers are different depending on your pay scale. And I’m not a public servant before anyone thinks differently. I’m actually out of work but admire the work our teachers do. I was at a meeting in my daughters school last night about her juniour cert, teachers were there til 9 and they were there til 9 on monday for the leaving cert. My daughter has supervised study after school on monday, wednesday and thursday. My son has rugby after school on wednesday and debating on thursday. Choir on friday etc etc etc. Not all teachers clock out at 4….I think they do a great job

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    • And people in construction earning €1,000 a week got taxed €350 plus had to pay vat on that every week while doing 60-70 hours a week,so infact they earned prop earned less in a full calendar year when you take into account holiday pay sick pay and even eating at your desk pay that public sector staff get…..

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    • Reg 19/09/12 #

      You are correct Andrea, most teachers do a great job. However a starting salary of 32k is not bad for someone straight out of college. Many will go on and complete post grads and receive additional pay within a few years. As someone said on the radio this morning the country is borrowing in excess of one billion Euros a month to fund services, pay, pensions etc etc. We can’t continue to borrow that money, things have to change.

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    • Sorry but my brother worked in construction and his pay was ridiculous. He bought 12 houses during the boom times and rented them out. Always had the nicest car and the car he used for work. I had lots of friends in the construction industry who lived like kings. I know things are terrible for them now and that is very sad but they earned far more than public servants. They also did “nixers” on the weekends etc. Saying a new teacher earns 32,000 is misleading because of all the deductions. If the government paid every teacher 100,000 but they paid 80% in taxes and charges, most people would still fixate on the 100,000, not the actual take home pay. That’s where the problem lies, not with the salary, it’s the extra charges that take the pay way down. I know a girl who works in a secondary school, not quite enough hours to get a permanent contract. She was explaining to me that all the deductions are taken from her pay even though she would not be entitled to the pension with the contract she has. That seems grossly unfair to me. And I know the country is in a bad way and borrowing is through the roof but how will it help matters to push the public sector who have huge mortgages too into a position where they can’t pay their bills? It’s not their fault things are like this, it’s the fault of the previous government and fighting amongst ourselves is only taking pressure off this government.

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    • Reg 19/09/12 #

      Andrea, salaries are always the gross amount. That’s how all salaries are described. Everyone knows that this is before tax and other deductions. 32k is still a good salary for someone straight out of college. Those on temporary contracts etc is a different matter. Plenty of people employed on short term contracts in the private sector also. Doesn’t make things right, just the nature of thinks at the moment.

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    • My point is that there are additional deductions taken from the salaries of public servants so it’s not the same as someone in the private sector. And these deductions are not optional, even if they don’t ever reap the benefits (like pension or spouses and children etc). Surely, anyone can see the difference?

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  • 32k for a starting salary is not bad for your first year or work after college. Everyone has taken pay cuts over the last few years welcome to my world and 99% of the rest of the workers in this country. They should try been self employed id be happy with 32k plus holidays and sick days and no tax bill in Oct

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  • There’s so many people on this thread saying something along the lines of ‘well in my line of work we would be lucky to start on (insert random low salary), I don’t know how teachers can be complaining about 32K’ etc.

    These are such fruitless arguments.

    Making a comparison to another industry and pay bracket just doesn’t make any sense. It’s just like saying ‘well Chinese factory workers only earn 1 dollar a day so teachers shouldn’t be complaining’.

    If your line of private sector work doesn’t pay as much as teachers and you’re bitter about it then tough shit. You are free to retrain and try seek a different profession. This isn’t a socialist dictatorship, afterall, but don’t sit at your keyboard and bitch about another industry salary because of your own low job satisfaction.

    Reply
    • Reg 19/09/12 #

      Tim, it is largely the private sector that generates the wealth and taxes to pay these (mainly) decent salaries. The country is borrowing in excess of one billion Euros a month to maintain the services, pay, pensions provided by the state. This can’t continue. To express an opinion doesn’t mean that those in the private sector are bitter, they are entitled to an opinion. The private sector have also suffered huge pay cuts, redundancies and and job losses. As I mentioned in an earlier post I have been working for almost 30 years and for the last 10 for a small business I established with some others. My employees will earn more than I do this year and probably next year as well. I’m not having a big moan about it but things have to change.

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    • Absolutely, to express an opinion doesn’t mean people are bitter, but people being bitter in their opinions does. The majority of comments on this thread have just been begrudging with no actual point to make about the article/topic. In fact, most people have ignored the fact that this story is about the inequality amongst teachers payments and simply logged in to have a bitch and a moan.

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  • Three letters lads
    C.A.0

    Primary don’t get 3-5 month Hols as some state.
    Allowances for postgrads etc now gone. No incentive to get anything other than a pass degree and never learn anything in 40 years. About to graduate from postgrad for which I should get allowance ( in special needs, in case people think its not relevant) bit will not, despite having the majority of coursework completed pre budget day last year.
    Plenty of good teachers will continue to up skill for the sake of their kids but there is no incentive to do so ( it never really payed but you’d cover your fees over 10 years etc)
    Wasters will get as much as people who put in the extra time and effort.
    Clearly government haven’t moved onto joined-up writing yet.
    C**ks

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  • where are theses figures coming from?? Ive just been on the into website and the starting pay rate of a newly qualified teacher is approx ?27,000 a year excluding supervision allowance.

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  • 32 grand starting pay whats it after a few years 40 grand overpaid and underworked.

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  • Teachers can hardly complain with a starting salary of €32k. In the private sector most grads that manage to get jobs are starting at below €25k and that’s for a longer week and a lot less holidays. I’m not saying teaching is an easy job but the unions would be wise not to be greedy

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  • Teachers can’t stop moaning. 32K starting salary is more than most starting salaries for much more skilled professionals than basic teachers (is that primary school?), even in Dublin! If you take teachers salary is same everywhere in some bog land too, where living is much cheaper than in Dublin, then this is very high salary imho.

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  • not very long ago when I was in secondary school. I had a 24year old business teacher, she had been teaching two years had been to new York and Australia in the two previous summers and some Sun holidays in between. she carried a massive Gucci bag and matching purse always dressed in tommy Hilfiger and the like. sorry but she’s completely overpaid. I’m not saying working people don’t deserve nice holidays and clothes but not two years out of college its wrong. they’re bein wayyy overpaid

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    • p.s she wasn’t a very good teacher either

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    • p.s she wasn’t a very good teacher either

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    • Mursh 19/09/12 #

      Were you a good student or did your handbag envy get in the way?
      Perhaps someday when you get a job you’ll be able to buy a nice new bag for yourself.

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    • “she had been teaching two years had been to new York and Australia in the two previous summers and some Sun holidays in between. she carried a massive Gucci bag and matching purse always dressed in tommy Hilfiger and the like.”

      Irrelevant. You have no idea how any of that was paid for or what her expenses are. The discussion here is about whether new teachers are worth €32k, not whether their holidays and material possessions are too expense in your opinion.

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    • Maybe it was a fake handbag?!! Maybe you looked up to her and said to yourself “fair play to her for working hard to make a good life for herself, making a contribution to society and acting as a role model.” Maybe she inspired you to make something of your own life? Maybe our front line civil servants actually deserve the salaries paid to them? My point is that our front line public servants do immensely important work which commands and deserves an above average remuneration. They don’t rake it in but imo they deserve every cent as it’s hard earned. Ps I’m not a teacher.

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    • Maybe she had parents or a boyfriend who bought her the nice stuff you so envied?

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    • very relevant considering I know her quiet well to this day. I’m now training to be an accountant after changing from her class to a higher level in my last two years. anyway my point was she’s overpaid. I’m sure all teachers know how much work they are taking on by being a teacher and fair play it is a thankless job, but stop bitchin and moanin about ur massive pay cheques when most of the country is on the dole.

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    • relevant because you still know her? really? what people spend their money on has no relevance to whether they are overpaid. im sure when you’re finished training and start making money you will not spend any of it on nice clothes or handbags, and most certainly not on a holiday.

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    • Mursh 19/09/12 #

      Training to be an accountant, good on you. You’ll fit in perfectly cooking the books for private sector companies.
      Since when is 15% unemployment “most”? I see that as most people are not on the dole.

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  • I don’t think people are saying teachers have an easy working life. But the perks are a huge benefit yes they do homework and some do after school activities which they don’t get paid for but that’s their choice.I think the point been made here is teachers are not the only one taking a pay cut.

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    • No it’s not they’re choice. If they didn’t do those things then people like you would be complaining that they weren’t committed to your children. The amount of hypocrites on this thread is unbelievable.

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  • Any change brings out resentment where there is an obvious inequality between people completing the same role. However to suggest that €21.88 an hour is a weak starting wage is fairly brass necked. That’s assuming a standard 37.5hrs working week over the course of of a 52 week year with lunches unpaid. I can appreciate that recent graduates will spend time seeking a permanent position but that hardly strikes me as extraordinary. Plenty of people are willing to have a go at teachers but in this instance I think it is not unfair to point out that they still are in receipt of an excellent and stable income. The unions will do what the unions always do, they’ll pander to the vocal senior staff they know.

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  • I know people who only had one pay cut in the last 2 years. From their original salary per annum to 0 per annum. Yes that’s right, their jobs were cut. Get real. There are 400,000 with no work at all.

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  • I happen to know a teacher in a rural primary school who takes home the princely sum of – wait for it – €1100 per week! Don’t tell me that’s not overpaid. I work in the private sector, only recently had my pay cut 6% and if I go home even for a half-day sick it’s either docked from my wages or deducted from my mere 20 days holidays. I had an operation on my back last year & had to take it all as holiday time – wasn’t given a choice by the boss. I find it very hard to feel any sympathy for teachers or anyone in public service who have sick days, allowances and job security. You can’t put a price on the job security aspect.

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    • Pointless argument. You’re basically stating that you’re pi**ed off because someone you know earns more than you. You are free to retrain and become a teacher if your current job is underpaid.

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    • Also, job security? Newly qualified teachers have, essentially, no job security. They survive from random and sporadic temp positions. Those who teach in small schools will be waiting for next years enrollment numbers before they know if they get to keep their job or not. Stop bitching just because your own job is s**t.

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    • Thats rubbish Tim. He is saying they are getting big wages and don’t deserve the perks simple as that. He’s not saying he wants to be a teacher. Going by that logic you are saying anyone who disagrees with the high pay of teachers with allowances are done because deep down they are jealous because they didn’t go to college and get a teaching job. Rubbish. I worked in it i know what I’m talking about. Most teachers are milkin it. Don’t ask me for proof because if i start talking and naming people a tribunal will be set up. Its disgraceful the allowances and pay they get. Nobody is saying teachers job is easy or hard thats irrelevant. As stated to my face once by a highly paid vice principal ” I went into teaching for the time off and i make no apology for it” She admitted the obvious that everyone knows and as for the argument that its for “our” kids. It doesn’t benefit kids or their parents that teachers get high wages and a myriad of allowances.

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    • You’re incorrect. By my logic you shouldn’t criticise the employment standards of teachers in comparison to your own personal employment experiences in the private sector. I stand by that.

      ‘don’t ask me for proof…’ sounds exactly like the words of someone who hasn’t a clue what they’re actually talking about. My guess is that you are on a very personal vendetta.

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    • Very clever Tim I see were you are manipulating this argument. Make out I’m on a personal vendetta and it invalidates everything I have said above. More like it sounds like you are getting nervous that maybe the truth about all the scams and allowances might come out in public and a few audits done.

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    • Again, I am not a teacher. I am a sound engineer, so unless you have secret information about the sound engineering industry I am not very nervous at all. If you do have information about the sound engineering unions scam then you better keep quiet. It was us who killed Jimmy Hoffa.

      I don’t give a crap if your information brings about some audit or drastic change in the system. I just highly doubt it will. I’m not trying to manipulate any argument, but from all your comments it seems you are basing everything on your own personal experience with one school. You also seem very bitter about said experience. That’s why I think you are on a very personal vendetta.

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    • so Tim everyone here who disagrees with the allowances and high pay rates of public servants are basically just venting personal experiences is that it. So you think there is no objective truth in the argument that they get paid too much and have too many allowances?

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    • No, not everyone. Just you.

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    • Also, just to answer your question anyway. No, I don’t think there is an ‘objective truth’ to your opinion that they get paid too much.

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    • That’s why workers form unions. To ensure fair treatment. No unions often leads to exploitation of workers. Problem is unions also protect non performing members. That should be addressed. If you were genuinely off work due to bad back then it shouldn’t come from holidays.

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    • Teachers get paid fortnightly so that is what he/she got paid for a two week period

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  • Its all irrelevant anyway. The next election will see the protectors of the Croke Park agreement out in the street and the protection racket for the public service game is up. Roll on the election.

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    • Any politician voted in is going to protect their own ass, which means not pissing on the public sector closest to them or the people who vote for them (lots of voters in the public sector). I really doubt that whoever is in power is going to make the changes you imply unless perhaps the IMF or ECB explicitly say “make the following changes….”

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    • FF were in bed with the unions, Fg/lab are now in bed with the unions. What’s gonna be different after next election Christopher? SF will hardly get a majority and won’t alienate working class to any great extent.

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    • And the alternative to the current crowd is what? Certainly not any group that’ll come in and scrap it.

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