@Hairy, very well put.

No matter what a politician does, they will be subject to scrutiny. Abuse is not scrutiny but the idea that you must identify yourself in order to have an opinion is crazy. Not only that but you would be linked with that opinion.

When we vote, we identify ourselves only to ensure “one man; one vote”

To comment anonymously through social media in a way which is not abusive is as legitimate as any other medium through which one can comment.

Define abusive though. Different people might react differently to what you define it as.

Sending anonymous abusive tweets or messages doesn’t contribute to the debate or hold anybody to account. I’m surprised that the broadcaster didn’t edit the message and still use it on air

Cases like this and the Kate Middleton call will be used as sticks to hammer open discussions, while the backroom lobbyists remain hidden in the cigar-smoke screens.

‘But there’s no need for anything other than genuine argument to take place’ utter hypocrisy when its almost impossible to get a straight answer about anything from a single one of them

Hairy lemon:
you say -
“Nobody knows the reason Mr Mcentee took his life – including Mr Bruton.”

how do you know that?
i would expect the mr Bruton would have been in contact with the family.

i remember being on another forum, when the late Brian Lenihan, RIP died.
& i still remember the vile vitriol, & naked hatred.
the man was dead & couldn’t be hurt any more.
i think this is new to Irish society, & those who engage in it are a total disgrace.

like it or not, Damien, & i don’t like it – they were elected by the people
BTW – i never voted FG & probably never will.

as i said, i think the vileness, vitriol & naked hatred we encounter so often on fora like this one & others, is not a product of the recession
it is rather, in my opinion a product of our relative prosperity in the Celtic Tiger years.
we have reared a generation of spoiled brats, who believe they are entitled to everything.
many of the traditional standards associated with the Irish people for generations, have been cast aside & replaced by absolutely nothing – except ME ME ME.

I agree about abuse. But think the abuse of the people’s trust by these chancers outweighs any viriol they might meet.

Nor do I buy the lie that his sensitive soul succumbed to public feedback. That is pure Brutannic bull, and opportunist attack on an already suffering public.

I raised two kids during the Tiger squanderlust. They are neither spoiled nor abusive, nor are any of their friends I have met. They beat their parents’ generation hollow for mutual support and consideration.
They are both booked to emigrate, while these clowns banquet on the largesse of EU grandstanding.
The MEMEME men are the gluttonous political dynasties usurping our and our kids’ possibilities of a decent life on this RICH island.
A little proportion.

i agree Damien, there are many very fine young people about, including i’m sure your two kids,
but there has been a lamentable drop in overall standards too, over the last decade or two,
the vile bile & naked hatred we see on fora such as this & many more is just one manifistation of it.
you are correct too when you castigate those at the top of our society for their greed, vulgarity & crass ostentatiousness.
no better man than O’Toole to remind FG/Labour of the fact that they had all the answers when they were in opposition.
they have become more arrogant in less than 2 years, than FF after 13 years.
Gilmore’s behaviour in the Dáil last week, when questioned by a young SF TD on Reilly’s gombeenism was a disgrace.
Kenny did something similar a few weeks ago..

to revert to the topic of this thread – i only know of Shane McEntee from the media – he appears to have been a decent, honest, hard-working guy.
i’m sure those attending his funeral are from all political parties & none..
John Bruton may well have been a father figure to him – in the political sense,
& he may well have confided his troubles in him.
all i say is -

ar dheis Dé, go raibh a anam.

Completely agree Anne. I choose to post to the Journal under a pseudonym but I wouldn’t dream of posting some of the vitriolic bile and personal abuse that sometimes appears in Journal comments, particularly (but not exclusively) those directed at politicians.

I agree, I don’t use my real name either due to my job as Taoiseach..I mean as..never mind!..as you were!!!!

I agree with your point about the abuse, however, the journal provide a button for you to report abusive comments. It’s a problem that you can help to police if you so wish. We can all stand up to these bullies and have reasoned argument and debate without the vitriol spouted by some. We just need to take some personal responsibility to eradicate it.

Very true people forget there is always a delete button …,

I use a pseudonym because I don’t want my name and details floating out on the Internet for identity thieves, snooping employers and general head the balls that might take offence at something I say.

You can’t ask people to reveal their personal data nor to sanitise everything they say to the point where it would be acceptable on daytime TV. Our sympathies are with Mr. McEntee and his family, as should John Bruton’s – not taking cheap shots at social media, something he seems to know very little about.

I agree, however I feel that people should be obliged to utilise their real names when making comments and tweets – that way they would have to stand over what they are writing and saying.
Interesting also though, that the call for some censorship is coming from a Government Party Member ?
Censorship is an old tradition in FG history, I think .

Why are politicians trying to imply that it was negative comments on message boards and from his constituents that played a part in this unfortunate death.

A far more personal, profound and deeper issue came to light in the preceding few weeks that would have a major affect on anybody’s life. I don’t feel I can or should reveal it here but I think what burton and the others are doing is sickening, trying to divert attention to play down potential criticism of the budget or abortion laws or whatever – i am sickened by the implications of these politicians especially as they know the truth.

Exactly which broadcasters read out these abusive messages,
because I have not heard any?
I hope Mr Bruton is not mistaking valid, factual constructive criticism for abuse.

If he wants to lecture people about dishing out abuse, maybe he should have a word with big Phil and the rest of his fine party first,
or some of the corrupt/criminal elites that they protect and reward
the people who abused this country and its people to the point of ruin.

In comparison to the violent riots and protests in Greece, Italy, Spain, France and the U.K.
the government and the corrupt/criminal elites whom they protect,
have had an extremely easy time of it,
especially taking into account the amount of innocent Irish people’s lives have been destroyed by their actions/inactions.

@eddie I couldn’t disagree more. What if you make a pro choice comment and an prospective employer (who happens to disagree with this) reads it and you miss out on a job?

The more opinions you put out there under your real name the more reasons you’re giving possible employers not to hire you.

I totally agree with Eric, bit to add I find it amazing how quick politicians, including Kathleen Lynch (Junior Minister for Mental Health) were at condemning nasty social network comments towards one of their own, yet were silent over the past 2 months when 3 young girls tragically died the same way.

From talking to somebody closer to this issue I have heard that he was very upset about some of the personal reaction on his Facebook page to his carer’s comments. He knew what he had said was wrong and badly stated but apparantly the level of personal abuse on his page was awful despite the best effort of his staff to limit it. Now I’m not saying that this was the cause of his death but it clearly didn’t help at a time when he must have been feeling vulnerable.

The cynicism that exists around politics means its very easy for people to think that all politicians are smug and just laugh off criticism and abuse but the reality is different. At the end of the day politician are people and most of them go into politics out a genuine desire to help people. That may not be a popular opinion here but its the truth.

And even if politicians are strong enough to ignore the bile that appears on social media and comments site peharps those making these comment might have some consideration for the families of politicians who end up in the crossfire as well. Nobody is discouraging political debate and argument over policy but why some people can’t make a point without engaging in vile personal abuse is beyond me.

@ Michael Hegarty
Well said.
In fact our leaders and protectors have been very silent in the media when it comes to the issue of the large amount of suicides in the general public.
It is as if they were trying to pretend that this national travesty did not exist.

If you can’t stand the heat…don’t go into hell’s kitchen.

I choose to use my real name and avatar cos I am real, in a hood/ghetto way.

Have a real Christmas.

Well said and I totally agree twitter is a good outlet to let people know the truth about this corrupt country and I think putting the blame on the public is just something this government like to do. Sure we all went mad during the boom another thing we were blamed for and being punished for. I think if they try to mess around with twitter there will be massive repercussions over it. I think personally the Irish are too quite we need to speak up for ourselves more, get on the streets protesting(peacefully) in numbers not just small groups here and there. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I don’t know what were that mans reasons for what he did but I just think lets stop writing about it now leave that mans family have their privacy.

Mr Bruton.
Before you go pointing the finger loosely at the public,
I think you should have a word with the members of government who make “prank” calls from blocked numbers,
as they suck cheap taxpayer subsidized drink down their snouts, in the comfort of the Dail bar.

Yes the “fine” “politicians” who poke fun at those, who try to protect innocent people, that have been attacked by banker’s thugs in the dead of the night.

Let the peasants eat Pizza John??

Pagan as it looks this man was a victim of this goverment and the previous one even though he was part of this aparatus which is destroying my country ,i look on this goverment as a form of oppression on the people and now we have mr bruton attacking freedom of speech ,its not the popular speech that we must protect its the unpopular speech these are the words of an american president T jefferson , bruton has no problem with his political party who lied to get in to power and are still lying through their teeth .

+1

Sorry but that is not true. Personal abuse is not allowed in the Dail. Yes there’s a lot of silly shouting and heckling and it would be a lot better if that rubbish was cut out. But to compare that to the vile comments you read here and on Facebook and Twitter is ridiculous.

FlopFlipU,Good point The party whip system is a bully tactic,John Bruton and Finna Gael wants to look into that.

No they are just guilty of cutting respite care in the first place.

I agree. What we really need is 166 independent TDs each fighting his/her own corner. Just think what we could achieve with 166 Jackie Healy Raes or Mick Wallaces – we’d be out of this mess in no time.

@phantom – is it choice? or is it the illusion of choice? Look at what happens to any TD who puts their head above the parapet.

Consequences are annoying sometimes eh?

tommy the fact is that …..it is a choice ……….. you just cant face the truth

@phantom – I can absolutely face the truth. I know exactly what you’re saying – just because I see another angle and put different weight on that than you do means we disagree, not that either of us is wrong.

I think with certain issues, the voting process should be fully identified – with others, TDs should be free to vote with no repercussions. Voting with the party denies the TD to act as a representative. Yes, they can vote against their party. Yes, that is a choice. But it is punished.

tomy i wont reply again but the facts are the facts … he could have vote against the budget but he didnt ….. delusional tomy delusional

That’s ok – you obviously don’t understand that Mr. McEntee’s tragic suicide (as all suicide is) is as a result of multiple factors and about a lot more than voting with the party line.

If you think it is as simple as this then I hope nobody ever asks you and you alone for help if they feel suicidal. Seems like the only answer they’d get is “sure smile, it’s that simple”….

Donkey.

Tony seek help

journal? some of my comments on this thread have disappered !

maybe try not being condescending and making a point might help?

calling people delusional and naive is hardly making a point.

the comment that disappeared was the first reply above saying he had a choice but he decided not to vote against the budget ….. tomy as the poster above commented you need to seek help

+1 again

The FG trolls won’t like that nugget of information. They throw constant, vile and personal abusive comments to anyone who critiques the government!!! They can give it but not take it….

Well they aren’t right either.

:sighs.

Ah yes Ryan. If you can’t beat them join them. Two wrongs clearly make a right in your book.

Newstalk is now reporting some other FG minister saying people need to remember ‘politicians are people too with wives and feelings’. Looks like a concerted effort to muzzle criticism of the government on the back of this is now underway. Other groups of people might wonder where they themselves had gone wrong or what they could have done differently after something like this but it seems FG’s instinctive reaction is to blame political opponents and try to engineer changes in their own interest. They never miss a beat.

Why do I have to keep making the same point to people? You can criticise Government without stooping to personal abuse. You don’t agree with a decision of the Government. Fine. You can come on here and say how you think its a bad decision that will adversely impact people and how you think there are better ways to implement it.

But when you start abusing and making vile personal comments about any individual then you are crossing a line as far as I’m concerned. And yes politicians do have families who don’t deserve to have to read personal abuse about a father, mother, son or daughter just because you don’t like a decision.

Would you be as circumspect if people constantly personal abused you on Facebook or Journal? No you wouldn’t. It’s bullying of the worst kind and its interesting that people on here who talk about mental health issue seem to have no problem with this form of bullying. Bullying isn’t something that exists for children, it exists for everybody and its wrong in any form.

Their decisions directly affect ordinary people, but those affected are not allowed to say anything that may offend them? They are contracted to represent their constituents’ best interests, too bad if they choose not to do that but to continue taking a massive salary plus ridiculous expenses immune from criticism. Until there is a proper way to recall representatives who break their promises (their contract with their constituents) people will vent their frustration. Fix the situation in the way in which it was agreed before you were elected, or create a system where we can sack you for failing to do that and people will feel less powerless.

No worries Gathering.

Please Mr Bruton or your representative if you are watching.

You might be able to confirm for us if you did indeed attend a Bilderberg meeting in 1998 as leader of Fine Gael?

Very sorry but the journal keep taking down the links when I post them here.

But if you google John Bruton, Denis O’Brien and the Bilderberg Group, you’ll find many webpages confirming their attendance at Bilderberg Group meetings.
Bruton attended as leader of Fine Gael.

In fact the one and only Michael Noonan was at Bilderberg 2012.
(But don’t tell anyone)

Ciaran
Every day on this site Government TD’s are identified by name and accused of being liars, traitors , thieves and embezzlers.
Each and every one of such statements are a gross libel and every Member of Dail Eireann so accused could take action to recover massive sums in respect of the damage done to reputation and self worth. But in effect they have not taken up that challenge because they fear the opprobrium it would visit on their private and family lives.
The political cartooners did serious damage to the self image of politicians and I draw people’s attention to the caricatures of John Bruton and Brian Cowen in particular. How their families coped with such vile physical images of their loved ones is hard to understand but everyone said sure they were politicians and had to be tough to be in that game.
What is said on this site particularly is beyond vile. It is vicious and it is deceitfully untrue and instead of a requirement of a name and address I believe anyone should be able to access the IP address of an individual through the Courts on a Writ of Discovery. Further searches can the take place to verify the writer where a Court action is in train.
If politicians are to be targets of appalling cyber bullying then the bullies should be fully amenable to bothe the civil and criminal Courts. It cannot be a one way street.

Yeah it’s tough on them, if only we could compensate them in some way… €100k plus expenses, multiple pensions, a turning up for work allowance, average industrial wage in transport allowances, no real scrutiny of government, vote how you’re told so you don’t even have to scrutinise or think, only toe the party line. There are exceptions but most seem to be swine with their snout in the trough.

This is exactly the sort of comment I am talking about – “most seem to be swine with their snout in the trough”. How many politicians do you know personally that you can make this sort of statement? You probably don’t know any of them yet you feel completely happy to make a personal insult to hundreds of people that you have never met.

All catholic clergy protect child abusers by failing to give evidence against their abusive members, and by following orders from their leaders to protect church assets, not paying compensation etc. Until the clergy clean up their act, pay compensation to their victims and hand over all abusers they will be seen for what they are.

Not every member of the church clergy has information about other abusive clergy!!

Mattoid,I think you shouldn’t be using a pseudonym because you are a nice person, I have read your comments and your never abusive so don’t be shy.

@Finnian. Perhaps, but NONE have given evidence against protected abusive clergy. NO compensation has been paid to victims. The church has not cooperated with investigations, instead it has continued the cover up.

Tom, according to multiple sets of figures provided by the Catholic Church as well as the government reports, slightly more than 6% of Irish priests over the last fifty years or so have been convicted of child abuse, or have had credible allegations made against them. That’s about one in every fifteen priests.

Thanks Richard.
Hope you and your customers in in the pub have a very happy christmas.

Agreed. It just doesnt fit that a man in his fifties cares that much about comments from keyboard warriors. I think most people take facebook and twitter with a pinch of salt and I definitely would think a politician in these times would fall into that category. If the real reason emerges I think Bruton will look pretty foolish. While some comments may be rash, people are angry and have every right to be. If it would suit Mr Bruton maybe we should all send well written, thought out letters instead, nope because they would’nt bother reading them.

Hibernia
What a disgusting post which is offered as a pathetic excuse for the loss of a life that radiated dignity and integrity and decency in the service of others.

I agree if someone goes into politics they should be accountable for their actions and should be strong enough to take criticism and flak for their decisions, but in a civilised society this should not include personal abuse, which is more a reflection of the intelligence of the bully/abuser than that of the target.

Completely agree they heap austerity on the people of Ireland and now they can’t take the back lash, fair enough some comments are over the top. But they get payed enough to deal with the public maybe if they actually represented us instead of spouting everyone must feel the pain what pain do they feel on their wage lead by example and stopped robbing people blind at every Opportunity, then they wouldn’t get so much abuse.

Exactly, we are now in an era that people say exactly how they feel and people are fed up with lies and deciept.
Years ago there was no social media so the only way to voice discomfort was to wait for elections.
Politations put themselves forward to do a job,they know the pitfalls and what’s demanded of them.
So when they go back on promises they can expect a backlash.
As for payments and pensions, we pay it so we are entitled to know where/whom it is going to and for what.
Todays social media can make/break a politation and it makes it harder to fool the electorate.

Nobody is saying you can’t criticise them or their policy choices but why should you feel that you can heap personal abuse on them. Says more about you than them.

Interesting that you decided on one silly comment that he made what sort of a person he was. I take it you knew him personally so that you knew everything else about his life and what he had done before this. Because clearly you seem to be sure of the right of your expressed opinion.

I’m glad you have no remorse or feelings for the man and his family at this time. I’m thrilled that your right to be abusive and scathing trumps any right to decency. And all in the name of free speech.

Sometime I despair not just for this country but for people in general.

He’s not saying that. He’s saying that broadcasters should not read out anonymous abusive comments that add nothing to the discussion. That’s a fair point. Most political programmes are anaemic enough without that sort of rubbish.

His peripheral observations are a bit mad though.

naive

No it doesn’t, they are holier than thou and our masters. You hand over your money to the Bondholders, you pleb!

Brian Brady
I will never be told to stop voicing my opposition to this dictatorships enforcement of austerity measures.
Maybe this administrations party should stop engaging aggitators to use multiple identities to post arrogant ant nasty comments .
Journal take note , you know the people who post using mutiple identities.

“Yes It Does Give The People the Right To ABUSE TDs”
These patriots elected to protect the nation against foreign tyranny and make devastating financial decisions that safeguard the poor and weak in our society, yet fail to lower their own wages or expenses.

if you disagree please do so in an offensive manner :)))))

And there we go. Perfect example of the type of abusive comment that we are talking about.

Kenny already make his government do a suicide awareness course at the beginning of his dictatorship. Here is a link …. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tds-attend-suicide-awareness-workshops-2885883.html

Al, we are already living in a police state

I am calling it a dictatorship.

It’s John Bruton, not Richard.

Jim perhaps you might be better advised to actually read in detail what it is that a person posts on here, and on doing so you may then be able to make a more informed intelligent rebuttal, rather than the inference you suggested earlier on my previous post.
If this is a request that you cannot adhere to then maybe you should reconsider engaging in articulate debate on here….

“If you’re writing something that you wouldn’t say to somebody in person then chances are that you shouldn’t post it.’ …well said!

Declan, this system allows insiders to express opinions, without risk to their jobs, the journal can delete post is they are inappropriate

Look Declan, The Journal is already providing facilities for this. It simply states at the top of every comment (Report this comment)