Where’s the deterrent if they have nothing to contribute in terms of financial penalties?

I have often thought that it would be a great deterrent if anyone who was found guilty of theft had to repay the amount they stole plus a 100% surcharge to the victim as a ‘fine’ – great in theory but unfortunately unworkable in practice.

It’s hardly deterring people at the moment is it ? If it was a suitable deterrent we wouldn’t be commenting on this story would we?

What he’s trying to say is that there are other ways of punishing people besides sending them to jail.
People usually come out of prison worse than they were when they went in. He is saying that other sanctions should be considered first and if none of them are appropriate, then prison should be used as a last resort.

It costs over €70,000 a year to keep someone in prison, and often doesn’t do the person or society any good. Fines, community service, probation, house arrest etc would often be more beneficial overall and would still be an adequate punishment.

Obviously dangerous violent offenders are a different story and prison actually does serve a purpose in that case.

Paddy O Donnell
I agree wholeheartedly
If Mr Lonergan had spent as much energy on his own remit as he did travelling and talking on the ”after dinner speech circuits” then he may have managed Mountjoy better and it may have been a safer and more secure place for prisoners and staff alike.
It is entirely his mindset and subsequent ”orders” as Governor I reckon that had Mountjoy ” a wash with drugs and gang culture etc”
Mr Lonergan you are retired , go away !

how dare they, dole cheats, i don’t care if they are only trying to feed their kids, leg irons and of to van diemen’s land with them

The cost of maintaining this would be horrendous if biometric ID came in.

The question is: Is a prison a place to rehabilitate Social Welfare fraudsters?

I would propose. If the person is a forgien national that deportation on the spot, you have given up any amnesity rights. If the person is not, how about electronic tagging. Modern tags can have time dependent virtual walls, so the criminal (fraud is a crime) can have extended periods of curfew with very few exceptions. No going to court for leeways, a clear set of rules and enforced by specialist garda/prison officer unit.

Add in financial penalties as much as possible. The probelm with fines and restricting resources is that these people claim hardship and the court doesn’t impose them (e.g. Guy has wife and three kids. He defrauds the system by double claiming. He spends the money in the pub and gambling every week for a year. Gets caught. If you fine him he will claim that his family will suffer (which they will) because they are already living under the poverty line.)

Community Service would also be a possible option. What we could go for as well is the orange jump suit and shit job duty… i.e. clearing rubbish from an area.

Harsh prison regimes lead to increased recidivism. Humane and civil regimes lead to increased rehabilitation.

Prison should only be used if the offender presents a risk to society. Locking people up uses scarce tax payer resources.

People are sentenced to prison as punishment not for punishment, or vengence as you seem to wish for!

That’s just shows your complete ignorance on the subject. Open prisons as a last resort for social fraud, these people should hit in the pocket first, what about prison for tax avoidance, now there is were the real money is, not the poor trying to cheat the system.

Absolutely agree Paddy. Lonergan was an apologist for his inmates. You’d swear they were all wrongfully imprisoned.

Exactly David. 50% of people who are jailed go back to jail within 4 years of release – hardly an ideal situation….

“Putting people in prison makes them more likely to reoffend” I would say try locking up the hundreds of serial offenders who are causing havoc in society. it’s to the damnation of this “justice” system that criminals are out to commit second and third murders with a string of previous convictions. Society deserves to be protected. Keep in mind that you generally have to have a list of previous before you get sent to prison in the first case. A simple way of sorting out the repeat offenders – if you commit an offense after you have been released you will have to serve the remainder of your original sentence (25%+) on top of the new sentence. That would sort out a lot of it. Keep in mind people that they are releasing 1400 prisoners from 1-8 year sentences over the next 2 years. Crime will balloon.

I’m personally still hoping that will happen, I don’t think the investigations into banking fraud have stopped, I think (or hope at least) that it’s just a much, much more complex process and therefore takes longer to build a book of evidence against individuals.
I believe we will see the day where some of them will get lengthy jail terms.

They used to use that kind of punishment a couple of hundred years ago. It didn’t work as a deterrent.

He’s not saying not to punish her – he’s saying that a fine or something else would be a more appropriate punishment.

We’re paying a fortune to imprison her despite the fact that she doesn’t pose any threat to members of the public.

The harm she caused was to leave the state out of pocket, but it’s being left even more out of pocket by imprisoning her.

You know Susie, I don’t mean to be offensive but I think you are the one with the pretentious and ignorant comment. I mean, it’s a bit much for you to call him ignorant, him, the former governor of Mountjoy prison, when he’s talking about an area that he has spent the majority of his life working in. He has first-hand, longitudinal experience of prisons and the prison service in Ireland.

Now I could be jumping the gun here, maybe you also work in the prison service, maybe you have talked to many people who have been imprisoned for many different types of crime. Maybe you do have empirical evidence to bolster your position hell maybe you’re at the forefront of research into the beneficial effects of imprisonment on society. If you are, I’m sorry and I retract everything I’ve said of you.

Sadly I think this is all unlikely, I think you’ve based your comment on your own, possibly narrow, experience and honestly, I think I’d much rather heed the words of John Lonergan who’s self-assumed authority on all things prison is supported by a good 40+ years of work in prisons.

Chris Connolly M .
It is ok . I have many years of experience working in Mountjoy Prison.I knew Mr Lonergan as my boss. So , yes I have many many years of experience working with prisoners . male and female. Mr Lonergan had some strange ideas about prisoners and why they committed crimes. As I said he was an idealist . His job was safe custody and security .

Susie says Lonergans comments are ignorant. Easy to throw this type of stupid comment about. He did work in the prison system for 40 years so I suggest ignorance is the last thing he shoud be accused of. His ideas are worth consideration as clearly our prison system has failed in all aspects except perhaps satisfying the primal instinct of the hang em and flog em brigade.

That’s what you call a job…

So if you work and pay taxes for 30 or 40 years and are unfortunate enough to lose your job, you should then have to work for social welfare payments that you have contributed to? Really?

Yes. Particularly long term unemployed. There should be nothing for nothing

And it’s not for punitive reasons. This would give someone a reason to get out of bed in the morning, would add structure to their routine. They’d meet new people. They might even develop skills to help the get a job. It would help eliminate abuse of the system. Their kids would see them getting up and going out to “work”. Don’t know what the negative reactions are for.

@Srap, my negative reaction is because you appear not to be distinguishing between the genuinely unemployed who would like to get back to work and dossers with no intention of ever working..
I agree there should be nothing for nothing, that’s why we pay taxes.
By all means force dossers to contribute to their payments, and withdraw payments to those who refuse.
But if you bring your suggestion to its logical conclusion, then why don’t the government lay-off all county council workers (whose work is in essence community service) and make them do the same work for lesser dole payments.

Excellent idea Noddy. The people you refer to are “social welfare ++”.

I know a bar man who works in North Couny Dublin who tells me the bar is hopping at 9am with county council workers on a sickie. Every Monday this happens except bank holiday Monday’s when they earn triple time and usually work 12+ hours. Those weekends they appear on Tuesday’s

In fairness, he’s not calling for blanket fines on everyone who commits welfare fraud, he’s just saying that “prison should be a last resort which should only be imposed when somebody is a risk to society.” I think that’s a pretty common-sense kind of approach, really. In some cases fines will work better, in others community service might be more practical.

And he is responsible for that,, wtf. So when a doctor fails to save a patient, using your logic he should be fired!!!

+10 ^

Go away Declan o carroll…. Have another pint. This discussion is for adults…

I have no idea what your comment means

@mattoid: The comment means what it says.

Ireland has a totally corrupt so called government and judicial system who steal from the sick, the handicapped, the unemployed, old age pensioners and the workers, where nobody is getting protection by law.

People cheating the welfare system are attacking the very same vulnerable people you’re speaking out for.

Not being funny, but your original comment looks like it was written in a different language and then put through google-translate into english…

@mattoid: There are very few people who defraud the system. Its now a case of propaganda to make it look like the poor are the only criminals.

Its those running the system and assuming authority with unspecified regulations and opinions who are looking after their pay packet.

Its does not register with most people, that those running the system are for the most part the criminals who will do anything for money.

@mattoid Stop feeding this troll

@John ‘Trips’ Gallen: If you lack the skills to understand the subject don’t make a comment and display your failings.

@loyalirishcitizen. Well put my friend, totally agree with you.

I also cannot make head or tail of LoyalIrish [sic] Citizen’s original post…

Deck off Lonergan. Will you ever go away. Thievery is thievery. Stealing that amount from the public purse deserves jail.