Yeah and who pays. The hard worker. The lad that earns the bonus pays the tax to cover the waster that won’t work to pay his debts! It rubs salt in the wounds of the hard worker. Do less get more for nothing.

Ps. I’m not condoning bankers getting bonus. Bankers here got big bonus for not doing there job correctly. That is not hard work that’s being a sloppy worker. And management were just as bad for rewarding poor practice.

No Abdul, the economy benefits, you benefit. Do you think that your business runs on good will alone.

You cannot have a society were job creation and growth are rewarded and not have debt write off. It is just that simple.

Govt’s should not concern themselves about people feeling they are being rubbed up the wrong way, their job is to support economic growth and get on with it.

“The hard worker” what self indulgent rubbish. If the fellow who did that was such a hard worker then he would have the business acumen and the cop on to realize that you cannot have economic growth and business creation without generous debt write offs. No country that has growth has ever done that. The hard worker who thinks like that is ever the employee and never the employer.

America’s economic might was built on debt write offs and knowing that that could be done. It allows people to get on with life, take risks, grow and start business.

In normal societies when banks and some people go mad they both take responsibility. Here no one likes to face facts and no’s but just love to deal in outrage.

Stephen Lynch
You are what is wrong with this country. You berate the ‘hard worker’as nobodies. Well this hard worker has had enough. I find it a tad too coincidental that AIB wait til after the budget to release this bit of good news . But I think you will find that people who are suffering food poverty , fuel poverty, job losses, wage cuts, have had enough of ‘being rubbed up the wrong way’ and will take no more BS from the powers that be….

Eileen. I work for myself and I work bloody hard cause in this economy I run to keep open and food on the table everyday.

Isn’t it gas that countries that work a lot harder than people in this one have laws that are a lot clearer and more generous than this one. Not a coincidence. When debts are not going to be paid back, are unable to be paid back then they are written off. It really is that simple and basic.

As for the powers that be. I have always been opposed to and worked against the rotten corrupt state that we live in or its golden circle. I have no loyalty to it. My loyalty is to my country.

Abdul. You are a total greedy selfish PLONKER. The country is so badly Fu*ked it really doesn’t matter if some individuals have some form of debt write down. The banks have already accounted for this and have made provisions for it.
Does it make you feel better and more smug to know that some people are really really suffering financially and mentally and cannot pay back their debt either now or anytime in the future?
Why do you think suicide rates have sky rocketed over the last number of years??
Because people see no way out and cant cope with their insurmountable debt.
Live and let live and good luck to those who get some form of relief. I hope they can rebuild their lives and look to the future with some hope.
Happy Christmas to all.

#Eileen- in fact non tax payers like you are what’s wrong with this country. If you paid your way, the rest of us wouldn’t have to carry you.

Mr. Magoo

Yeah I do understand that. But I don’t see why every one else should suffer. My kids and my kids kids will be paying of the debt of this generation and the generation before them. Greed is what got a lot of people in this mess. Buying second houses paying interest only selling the on for a profit. When the arse free out of it they expect a hand out. Same as all the people who bought telecom shares when the fell on there face bitch and moon looking for compensation. Plenty of people take risks every day why is it that when theses people bought houses and then then could pay for them they thing they can get a bailed out.

I only wants what’s fair. I don’t want my kids paying for my mistakes and I certainty don’t want them paying for a shower of greedy idiots mistakes, and I’m sure you don’t want that ether mr Magoo.

#Abdul- sounds about right to me.

Save that gibberish for the NAMA 850 who racked up €74 billion Abdul and are still getting 200k a year in their Mansions in D4.

The majority of the people involved here just wanted a cheap comfortable home and a half decent mortgage product to buy it with.
What they got instead was 4-5 years of financial blackmail and torture from a corrupt/criminal banks that have the full support of our bought out government(s).

Abdul. You say you only wants what’s fair and you don’t want your kids paying for greedy idiots mistakes.
Well the fact of the matter is that your kids will be paying for the mistakes of the greedy bankers and developers for their lifetime. These same bankers still enjoy the high life after screwing up this country and you and your kids are STILL topping up their pensions to ensure a very comfortable retirement after being already bailed out by you and your kids. What AIB are proposing is debt write down on the desperate cases where there is just no ability to repay. These people are on their knees unlike the bankers you are still paying for. They aren’t trying to pull a fast one.
If you have an ounce of compassion in you you should not wish to see any human being been driven to suicide or eternal desperation because they can’t cope.

You’ll be hoping that these unfortunate people don’t sue these criminal/corrupt, diseased “banks” for the damage that they have done to their lives with their filthy, poisoned products.

#Gathering- substantiate that please. The banks have bought Fine Gael and Labour, how? So tired of baseless accusations like that being bandied around. You don’t have to agree with Government- but you do have to prove that it’s based on corruption. So one example please of how Fine Gael or Labour policies have been “bought” by the bankers. No rhetoric. A solid example.

“It is, however, of crucial importance that debt forgiveness be an option available and applied by financial institutions in dealing with the circumstances of individuals under enormous financial stress and who are in reality effectively insolvent”???????.

More toothless drivel Shatter.
You should be forcing these banks to stop their 5 year long Financial Genocide Campaign.
You should be throwing these Corrupt/Criminal bankers (who broke our country) in Jail.
You should be forcing the foreign banks to write down mortgages as well (not everyone has a mortgage with AIB).
These banks and their bankers should be criminally investigated for their crimes.

@ Vincent.
NAMA

( and I did say Government(s), so I did not just mean FG & Lab)

Gathering / MrMagoo. Fully agree with everything you both say. Abdul and Vincent – vent your anger at the bankers and developers and not at you fellow peers who are genuinely in need.
What is Ireland coming too where we wish each other hardship and bad luck?

#Gathering- In pretty sure I asked for an example of either party being bought? Not abstract policies. You accused FG & Labour of being bought. Again, an example please-

#Dec- I agree with you 100% re: bankers. They borrowed money they couldn’t stand over and now expect others to pay for their mistake. But is that not exactly the same as the guy who bought the big home on a 110% mortgage, albeit on a bigger scale. And if you feel the banks should be bailed out why should we bail out the guy? Same principle.

#Gathering- I’m also interested in your strategy for forcing foreign banks to write down Irish mortgages and loans. I wouldn’t have thought that is at all straightforward bearing in mind the Irish State itself is bankrupt, is being bailed out itself by foreign finance and consequently has zero leverage. You obviously have a plan, though. That’s great news. Lets hear it.

Yes Vincent
NAMA
The National Asset Management Agency
The organisation that took over €74 billion of loans from 850 developers
(some of the main players in creating this crisis)
€74 billion, thats an average of approx. €90 million each
Now NAMA pays these up to €200,000 a year each and allows them to keep their palatial homes all with full support of FG and Labour.
As the families who bought their shoddy built shoeboxes (and paid €10′s of thousands in property related taxes) get, thrown out of their homes, bullied, criminalized by corrupt bankers and their heavy handed receivers.

#Gathering- maybe I’m not being clear. You said this Government (amongst other) had been bought by the banks and were doing their bidding. Again, I ask for one iota of proof that this is the case. Just one example of how Fine Gael or Labour were bought by the banks? I wait with bated breath.

@Stephen_Lynch

That’s a serious understatement to say that the US is merely ”starting to come out of its malaise.”

33 consecutive months of job growth would suggest they’ll be on the road to recovery for some time.

You’re spot on with everything else though.

The US is a million miles ahead of Europe in this global financial crisis.

As regarding foreign banks making write downs.

They were willing to do business in Ireland in the good times and syphon of the profits.
I’m afraid now they will just have to take the rough with the good.

However Bank Of Scotland Ireland sold of their Irish commercial loan book two weeks ago for approx 9c in the Euro.
That says something about the value that their experts and advisers put on Irish property.

#Gathering- again, I asked you HOW we would force the foreign banks to take a writedown, not the WHY. Do tell.

It’s funny how yous give out about the developers. They got there debt written off and are still living the same life. How is this any different to what were talking about. People get debt written off with out any consequence. The only difference is that they got away with it. If I was writing off there debt they would be living on 144 a week a not have a pension or a stitch of clothes on there back. The fact is they didn’t they got there debt taken off and told to continue.

How Vincent
Well, taking into account the damage and the loss of life these corrupt (most likely criminal) organisations have caused.
They should be thoroughly, criminally investigated, this will no doubt uncover the levels of fraud in these diseased institutions.
Then our spineless government for once in their life will have to pluck up the courage to stand up for their people and enforce the write downs/write offs.

These banks were afforded loose self regulation for to long.
It must end.

#Gathering- HOW exactly will Ireland instigate investigations into foreign banks? Still waiting for that proof of how the banks bought FG and Labour?

Yes Abdul.
These “developers” are on up to €200k a year courtesy of the Irish taxpayer and some of them don’t even live in Ireland.

The people who should be getting the write offs/ write downs .
The people who I am talking about.
Genuinely only wanted a cheap half decent home and a half decent mortgage product to buy it with.

It went wrong and at the moment these unfortunate people are at the mercy of corrupt (most likely criminal) banks and their hired muscle.
They are being Tortured, Criminalized, Victimized, Blackmailed, Squeezed,Starved to the point of suicide/ self harm/ and and early grave.

Are you trying to say that you support that??

Are you saying that foreign banks operating in Ireland can do what they like in here Vincent??

Tell me how come Kenny and Gilmore could not prevent these banks from increasing the mortgage interest rates Vincent?
Tell me how come FG and Labour say thing like wouldn’t it be nice if the ex managers of these corrupt banks (that bust our country) would give us back a little of their ill gotten pension instead of just taking it Vincent?
How come no bankers have been jailed yet Vincent, yet people are being brought to court for not paying the household charge to pay for the corrupt banker’s gambling debts?

FG and Labour will always be remembered as the “Bankers Government”

Gathering.

If they couldn’t afford them in the first place they shouldn’t have bought them. They should have waited. I’d love a Ferrari but I can’t afford one. I’m not going to get a mortgage to buy one in the hope that ill be able to afford it in time to come, and if I can’t afford in that time ill be able to sell it for a few quid more than I paid and that if I don’t buy one now they will go up in price.

No one had a gun to there head buying these houses so why should a gun be put to my head to pay for it.

Gathering.
If they couldn’t afford them in the first place they shouldn’t have bought them. They should have waited. I’d love a Ferrari but I can’t afford one. I’m not going to get a mortgage to buy one in the hope that ill be able to afford it in time to come, and if I can’t afford in that time ill be able to sell it for a few quid more than I paid and that if I don’t buy one now they will go up in price.
No one had a gun to there head buying these houses so why should a gun be put to my head to pay for it.

I’m sorry Abdul but it was the banks and their €1 Million a year+ experts who decided that these people could afford these homes.
And it is these banks that should face the consequences.
There are hundreds of thousands of victims in this travesty who, as I said only wanted a cheap basic home for their family and a half decent mortgage product to purchase it with.
Instead hey got shafted.
Many of these people (and many I know personally) bought the cheapest small basic house in a cheap area and now their life have been destroyed.

It is misleading comparing the purchase of a Ferrari which is very much a non essential, luxury item to the purchase of basic shelter.
I suggest that you talk to some of the NAMA developers about Ferraris,
and their bankers who gave them the loans to buy them
they bought enough of them during the boom.
In fact we are still probably paying for the petrol that they put in them.
Yet some people would rather bitch about their neighbor getting a small write down so that his kids can eat.

I’m totally with Abdul, during the good times a lot of people lived way beyond their means, bought or built mini mansions and finished them to the last. Now that the economy has gone south it’s pretty unfair that they get a write off and keep their fancy homes while the person who stayed within their means have to struggle on. This is not the case for everyone and I know there are genuine cases of hardship which I don’t begrudge getting assistance but there are a lot of cases who made their bed!

Stephen. You couldn’t more wrong. The US is printing money like its going out of fashion, the Dollar is being dropped left right and center as a trading currency, and the employment stats are improving because people are falling of the list of actively looking for work. The US is a out of control freight train heading for a broken bridge called derivative debt.

If so many people got money that they did not deserve.
shouldn’t the banks who dished out this money recklessly like some sort of psychotic drug dealers
and the regulators that enabled it to happen, be criminally investigated??
because regardless of you guys neighbors getting a few quid written off
Hundreds of thousands of lives and an entire country was destroyed here
and it certainly wasn’t by Joe Public buying a bit of decking that done it.

These mortgages/financial products were defective and poisoned at source
the bankers and their experts knew this.
Blaming the people who bought these defective, built to fail mortgages,
would be like blaming people for drinking poisoned water, instead of blaming the person who secretly poisoned it.

The people who were mostly to blame for this Travesty and this Financial Genocide
namely the Developers, the Bankers, the TD’s and the Senior Civil Servants
are still living their millionaire lifestyles and are being handsomely rewarded for their “mistakes”, their corruption and their criminality.
I don’t see why some people prefer to blame their neighbor and prefer to see their neighbor hunted down into an early grave??
Because as it stands that is what these corrupt/criminal banks are doing to people, with the full support of our toothless government.

Dolan vincent dillon costigan.
Thats roysh !

Exactly.

like Nama paying default developers 200,000 a year to keep them in the style they are accustomed to.

Alan Shatter
“The Minister for Banker’s Protection”

I know what your saying, however you should be allowed hand the keys back, end of debt, the banks led money on ability to pay , if that changes , the risk should be theirs

Well Abdul. No functioning or rational economy can exist without legislation like this. As is, this does not go far enough.

Any country that has jobs, growth and money will have legislation a lot more radical than this. That is not a coincidence.

The responsibility of the Govt is to put the economic needs of the country first, at least it should be. This is the Govt. doing that to some degree.

If Sínead and Seán had two jobs and owed 190k on their house but no have no jobs, then reality dictates that they are not going to all of a sudden pay back 190k with interest. They loose the house or part of it, they sell up and both sides call it a day.

They get on with their lives, he might start selling chips out of a van on Sat. night. They get back producing and making money for us all, they have a future and this county benefits from that.

The old rubbish of the pound of flesh and the beady eyes at the Neighbours belongs in the past, it held us back long enough.

Rgds from
House owner with small Mortgage. .

Yeah but if that was the case every Tom dick and Harry would be handing the keys back when any thing went wrong. The house cost 500k the back gave x 500k the party got the500k and spend it. So who pays the 500k. The bank in 500 in the hole you expect them to be another 500 done so some one who lived outside there means cant walk away scot free. Leaving the the people at the bottom to payIf ya buy a car you don’t hand the keys back when a year later it’s worth half. People need to stop thinking that houses should always go up in value.

Not the point, banks are in a better position to access risk than individuals , therefore the risk should be greater for them, banks leading poorly disappear eventually, while good solid lenders survive, Of course if you borrow and you can pay , you should be made do so

Abdul. That is the case in America, every Tom, Dick and Harry do hand their keys back. It is one of the reasons that they have well capitalized banks, why they just has very good growth figures, why new business start ups are at a 5 year high.

It means that the Banks have to act rationally to protect themselves, here there is no incentive, it is just bear down on society or the tax man and get the money one way or another. It is a banking style that is economically toxic.

190k down get the debt written off and 6 months later there back in work with no mortgage to pay. While the lad that was struggling chipping away at this mortgage gets rode 7 ways from Sunday. He’s the one paying the extra tax to cover the money the back is down. Hes the one trying to get out on his own as an employer but can’t get the start banks don’t want to talk to him. He hasn’t a spair pennie in his pocket. But because he is treading water he gets rode.

Abdul
do not fall into the trap of divide and conquer this government perpetrate. I am in a similar position to you re house and mortgage BUT we are all suffering at their hands in different ways. They are trying to distract us so we will fight among ourselves while they continue to destroy all of us.

@ shay. The money has to come from some where! in times gone by the banks would take the hit. But the banks there broke so the IMF Europe ect. gave money to the government so they could give it to the bank that we would have to pay in the end.

yeah Abdul but their are then renting a new house of staying on their friends couch. that is what walking away means.

If you want to start a business on your own, then get out of the house, negotiate its sale and tell the bank to suck it up. They’ll do business with you, then like the rest of people who get write downs either rent or stay on couches but the extra savings you make can be used to start a business instead of paying back debt for 30 years.

You are now in control of your life, your are now a job and revenue creator. You have just taken a massive step in getting this economy back to strong growth.

Ya lenihan has much to answer for, the money should have been lent to banks if they (euro) wanted them to survive

Eileen. I think you may have miss understood me. Or me you. I don’t want the banks writing down the debt because the people who don’t benefit form it end up paying for it. The people who are struggling to cover there own debts and bills get taxed my coz there working. The one who’s not working gets a ball of socialwelfare gets a medical card and now is going to get there debt written down while the working class pay for it.

AbDul
I have a mortgage I am trying to pay my debts . 400,000 people unemployed and another100,000 emigrated did not do so because the dole is so good . THEY LOST THEIR JOBS. We are all suffering. All of us feel hard done by. None of us are having it easy . THINK !Please,

Stephen Lynch I owe you an apology … I misunder stood your post. We are on the same wave length by different means.

Eileen. No trouble sister. Take Care.

Just a reminder to ye all- when you say “Banks” you are now effectively saying “The Irish Taxpayer” as we’re picking up their tab.

@ Stephen on reading you last post it’s sounds all well and good. For the individual and if there business works all well and good but who pays there difference. Some one always has to pay. The ex home owner is done say 50k the person who sold them the house got 150k so who pays the other 100k clearly the banks won’t it’s the tax payer. So it puts the people at a lower income under more of a squeeze and then it goes round in circles. Not every one who sets up a business succeeds so around we go again.

Excuse me Vincent
There is a big difference between the Irish taxpayer and these corrupt and most likely criminal organisations.
Yes the taxpayer is picking up the tab.
But these organisations are rotten to the core.

#Gathering- like it or not ( and I don’t), the banks (BOI aside) are now owned by the taxpayer. Every financial hit they take, the taxpayer has to cover. So every written down/off mortgage will end up being paid for by the taxpayer. This is where you’re arguments fall down. You can’t divorce principle from the realities we face.

So you accept that this extortion/criminality and the needless loss of life that is caused should continue, Vincent?

#Gathering- I’m not aware of criminality or extortion by Irish banks now. Please cite a concrete example of this. From now- we all know what happened during the Celtic Tiger.

I have personally witnessed ruthless collections from these banks (foreign and Irish) telling lies to their distressed customers.
Milking them out of tens of thousands of Euro to pay a corrupt bank on long dead un-savable mortgages.
Telling them to use up their last bit of savings to throw into these black holes.
Telling them to borrow from their elderly parents to pay their dead end mortgages
Giving them false hope.
Conning them.
Funny that you should mention the Celtic Tiger Vincent because thats when these corrupt sewerage pits of “banks” dished out most of these death sentence mortgages.

By the way Vincent.
Are you a Banker?
Just wondering why are you using a Meerkat from the moneysupermarket website as your logo??
Wondering too why my “idiot banker” comment was removed?

#Gathering- no, I’m not a banker. I like Meerkats and the ads, that’s all! You mistakenly assume I have sympathy for the banks. You’re wrong. But I’m a taxpayer. And I was raised to believe you don’t take a loan if you can’t pay it back. I also lived through the Celtic Tiger and witnessed the excesses it brought and the crazy borrowing that went on. So I don’t share your belief that all those in financial distress are Snow White innocent. I believe many were as reckless as the banks themselves and as a taxpayer I don’t want to pay their bills for them. I’m still waiting for your proof that this Government has been bought by the banks or any evidence of illegal activity by current bank management.

I don’t know about illegal , but they have no issue with bonus on top of stupid wages , for companies that are not in profit after loans, come on son wakey wakey

You only have to look at the toothless language Shatter uses above, to see that he is just standing by and letting these corrupt (most likely criminal organisations) institutions that broke the country,
continue their reign of torture on innocent families.
Is this really a minister for justice?
Or just a banker’s puppet?

I’m sorry Vincent you may not see this obvious corruption.
However from first hand experience with 90% of banks that operate/ operated in Ireland.
I have seen the disgusting, way in which these filthy institutions abuse, intimidate, harass their decent hardworking customers some to the point of suicide/ self harm and unnecessary early graves.
In some cases this has been going on unchecked by our government(s) for the last 5 years.
Our government seems to stand by and let these institutions go to town on their people,
just as they stood by and allowed members of the clergy abuse Irish children.
I for one do not condone this vile abuse.

With the damage these corrupt banks have done to this country unchecked by our leaders and protectors,
there should be mass write downs and write offs.
I can live with it if a minority get one that shouldn’t have as €74 billions worth of the unworthy NAMA cases already have got priority over 2 years ago.
But I think people are sick of the emigration, the suicides, the self harm,the hunger, the stress and the ill health.

You seem to have the impression that some of your neighbors may have overspent and got themselves into financial difficulty Vincent.
But I for one, don’t agree that the banker’s current solution of extorting, bullying, intimidating, harassing, conning, decent people to an early grave is a solution.

I for one Vincent
trust
my neighbor,
my friend,
my family,
to recirculate money back into our economy far more than I trust corrupt bankers or their government bedfellows to.
The “bankers” and “politicians” that syphon billions out of our economy to pay their gambling debts.

define “normal”

Does normal include people like you who have the Flag of Cromwellian Ireland. Normal as those jews that deny the holocaust or Russian youths that salute Hitler, that well know lover of the Russian people.

I’d say it is fairly certain that you have never started a business in your life Patrick. Most people don’t that is normal too but some people do and they should not be stopped by the likes of you.

Patrick Lyons
We all pay our debts ,We are all normal ,when we are not broken by this austerity,
Stephen Lynch I owe you an apology … I misunder stood your post ^ . We are on the same wavelength by different means.

#Eileen- you don’t pay your debts. For example your property charge.

Good man SMUG Patrick. I sincerely hope you never suffer any misfortune such as losing your job or suffering an illness. If that happens you may not be able to pay back your debts and then become ABNORMAL. Plonker !!

If you give up the house then yes, that is what this law is for.

If you were at house buying age in the mid noughties Patrick.
Would you be telling the same story??