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Dublin: 11 °C Saturday 18 May, 2013

Palestinian leader violates taboo on refugees

Mahmoud Abbas has publicly suggested his people may have to relinquish claims to ancestral homes in Israel.

Palestinians march during a protest against president Mahmoud Abbas in the Jabaliya Refugee Camp, northern Gaza Strip Saturday, Nov. 3, 2012.
Palestinians march during a protest against president Mahmoud Abbas in the Jabaliya Refugee Camp, northern Gaza Strip Saturday, Nov. 3, 2012.
Image: Hatem Moussa/AP/Press Association Images

THE PALESTINIAN PRESIDENT has set off a strident debate by shattering a once-inviolable taboo, publicly suggesting his people would have to relinquish claims to ancestral homes in Israel.

Mahmoud Abbas’ comments on the refugee issue, made in an interview on Israeli TV over the weekend, triggered hot responses from Palestinians and Israelis alike.

In Israel, it suddenly put the long-sidelined issue of peace talks back in the Israeli public’s consciousness ahead of parliamentary elections.

Israel’s 1948 creation

Palestinians have maintained for six decades that Arabs who either fled or were expelled from their homes during the fighting that followed Israel’s 1948 creation, as well as all their descendants, all have the right to reclaim former properties in what is now Israel.

Israel says a mass return of these people, believed to number some 5 million, would spell the end of Israel as the Jewish state. Also, Israel rejects the concept of a legal “right of return.”

In the interview, Abbas was asked about his birthplace of Safed — now a town in northern Israel. He told the interviewer that while he would like to visit, he doesn’t claim the right to live there.

‘It is my right to see it, but not to live there’

“I am a refugee, but I am living in Ramallah (in the West Bank). I believe that the West Bank and Gaza is Palestine. And the other parts is Israel,” Abbas said in English. “I want to see Safed. It is my right to see it, but not to live there,” he said.

The comments were widely seen as an acknowledgment that return of all the refugees would be impossible. While Palestinian officials privately acknowledge that, they have been reluctant to say so in public.

His adviser, Nimr Hammad, said Abbas was being “realistic.”

“He knows he can’t bring back 5.5 million Palestinian refugees to Israel,” Hammad said.

Some West Bank Palestinians were disappointed that their leader had made an overture to Israel without receiving any gestures in exchange.

“President Abbas is a failure,” said Iyad Alotol, a government employee in Ramallah. “He is ceding the right of return without getting anything from the Israelis. He is a man who makes concessions for free.”

Abbas, an outspoken proponent of a diplomatic solution with Israel, has little to show for his efforts. He has seen his popularity steadily decline in the West Bank, and in 2007, he lost control of the Gaza Strip to the rival Islamic militant Hamas.

Condemnation of Abbas predictably was harsh in Gaza. Hamas rejects negotiations and believe only violence will persuade Israel to give up captured territory.

Gaza Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh termed Abbas’ remarks “extremely dangerous.” At demonstrations in Gaza on Saturday, some protesters burned posters of a smiling Abbas, and others emblazoned the word “traitor” on posters of the Palestinian leader.

In Israel, Abbas’ comments were the talk of the town on Sunday, as officials debated how serious Abbas was.

Cool response

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and members of his Cabinet reacted coolly, even mistrustfully, to Abbas’ remarks. Israeli moderates warned against missing a chance to negotiate with a person they consider a partner for peacemaking.

The Abbas interview appeared to be aimed at soothing Israeli concerns before he goes to the United Nations later this month in hopes of winning “nonmember state” observer status for a Palestinian state inside the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem, which Israel captured in 1967.

Israel opposes the UN bid, accusing Abbas of trying to sidestep the negotiating process. It says the borders of a Palestinian state can be determined only through direct negotiations.

“I think President Abbas wanted to convey a message of assurance to the Israelis ahead of their elections, that he wants to have a state within the 1967 borders and doesn’t seek war or to delegitimise Israel,” said Palestinian analyst Bassem Zbaidi. “He told them, I’m not going to the UN to besiege you, on the contrary, I’m going to make peace with you.”

Abbas’ remarks suddenly returned the moribund state of peacemaking to the centre of Israeli political discourse. With peace efforts frozen for the past four years, Israeli leaders have been preoccupied with Iran’s suspect nuclear programme and local economic issues, and the Palestinian issue has not been a major factor in the campaign for Jan. 22 parliamentary elections.

Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak, a former prime minister who has been closely involved in peace efforts over the past two decades, said Palestinians have assured Israeli counterparts that they would be willing to agree to this compromise on the refugee issue.

“We can’t say that we don’t have a partner for peacemaking. Abu Mazen has expressed willingness to forfeit the ‘right of return’ in closed talks, too,” Barak said, using Abbas’ nickname.

‘No-one can forfeit the right of return’

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu wasn’t impressed, noting that Abbas subsequently backtracked in an interview with an Egyptian TV station. “No-one can forfeit the right of return,” Abbas told Egypt’s Al-Hayyat TV on Saturday.

“This just proves how important direct, unconditional negotiations are,” Netanyahu told his Cabinet. “Only in direct negotiations is it possible to find out what the real positions are.”

Israel’s ultranationalist foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, accused Abbas of trying to tilt the results of Israel’s Jan. 22 election.

“He is meddling on behalf of the (Israeli) left … which represents Palestinian interests,” he told Army Radio, noting that the Palestinian president takes a much harder line against Israel when speaking to his people in Arabic.

Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who made a peace proposal to Abbas in 2008, issued a harsh statement accusing Netanyahu of missing a critical opportunity to pursue peace.

“This policy toward the only partner possible for peace between us and the Palestinians is irresponsible and can damage the most vital Israeli interests,” Olmert said. He said the Abbas interview “proves to the Israeli public that there is someone to speak to and things to discuss with the goal of solving this bloody conflict.”

Read: Eamon Gilmore tells UN: Palestinian state is “long overdue”>

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Comments (58 Comments)

  • At the end of the day, they were evicted from their homes to facilitate the plantation of Israeli’s by the UK and USA and as a result are now living as refugees in their own land and being persecuted by one Israeli administration after the next. Shocking violation of any humans rights, from the outset and the US &UK governments of the time have lots to answer for and have led to the loss of many innocent lives

    Reply
    • At the beginning of the day, Israelis were evicted from their homes to facilitate the plantation of agressors from the Agean sea, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon, and as a result were living as refugees in their own land and being persecuted by one terrorist group after another. Shcoking violation of any human rights from the outset, and the Islamist governments have lots to answer for and have led to the loss of many innocent lives..

      Reply
  • There has never been peace in the Levant and there never will. The Israelis claim self defence as an excuse for their actions, yet there actions are the cause of their situation. The ultimate irony is that the Israelis are arguing to keep land they stole 60 years ago, yet are still thieving land this very day.

    I’m going to throw this out now before the 6 same pro Israeli ‘experts’ shout the same argument I’ve seen over the past few years as a journal reader….

    Israel started it…..Israel has killed far far far more civilians than any ‘terrorist’ group, and on that note, a terrorist group is defined by their actions, not by having uniforms or better funding. I see BOTH sides as terrorists, just one has bigger guns…..AND CLUSTER BOMBS……

    Reply
    • Oh please Ruairi say im one of those 6 please please please :) Actually lots of countries have cluster bombs and not just Israel, i hate the idea of cluster bombs, indiscriminate killing machines and should be outlawed completely. Secondly when it comes to the homeland there the jews have been there also for along long time and have a right also to have a homeland. When it comes to who started it. i’m going to copy and paste my last reply on this in a sec. but i do support the two state solution, it actually would have worked out far better for Palestine if they just left Israel be on its inception as Palestine would have been big, very big as you will see from this link

      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.svg/328px-UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.svg.png

      compare that to now where they have been pushed out and thats because of attacking Israel day one, again see my copy and paste below. Its just a case that if you attack a country and it fights back there is likely to be a land grab to ensure it cant happen again and thats what happen. I agree with the two state solution but i just don’t see Israel giving back land they captured. Oh and im not anti Palestine, not at all im just anti tactics that Hamas and Hezbollah use, terror from indiscriminate rockets. The one thing we have learned from the north is that if you want something you have to sit down and negotiate for it. War is hell and war in the end solves nothing. So yes stop with rockets stop with Israeli expansion and level heads work it out with realistic expectations. Hamas and Hezbollah must recognize that Israel is strong and not going away and Israel must recognize that they can not win against a gorilla movement like that. Anyway here is previously what i said

      ” The British governed the region in 1922. The non-Jewish Palestinians revolted in 1920, 1929 and 1936. In 1947, following World War II and the Holocaust, the British Government announced their desire to pull out, and the United Nations General Assembly voted to partition the territory into a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Jewish leadership accepted the proposal but the Arab Higher Committee rejected it a civil war began immediately, and Israel was declared in 1948. back then Palestine would have been huge and its own state but they rejected it to go to war with another people who say it as there home also. Israel would not have stopped Palestinians living there it would in fact have been the state of Palestine they would not have driven them out. the Palestinians in declaring war caused massive displacement Israel during this war declared by Palestine captured more land and those Palestine that left did not want to live there under Israeli control. fair enough but had they not attacked Israel they would have there state and control fair more land in modern day Israel and would be in fact a much bigger country than Israel. Israel began to secure itself meaning depriving Palestine of the ability to make war. go down the peaceful route stop with the rockets. simples, if we were attacked all the time from neighbors in Europe we would be fast to play dirty.”

      I was wrong on Palestine being bigger but would have been on Par with each other. Only winning option is two state solution

      Reply
    • @Stewie. Does other countries using cluster munitions justify their use on civilian areas? that’s what the Syrians do? it what the soviet union did in Afghanistan! Is that your comparison? Lots of counties have banned Cluster munitions and Israel decided not to comply.

      The Israelis have indeed been persecuted for thousands of years….as have so many people’s and faiths.

      There is NO justification for the methods used in capturing land, 60 years ago or even today. The ‘god promised’ us this land…or our ancestors were here is a stupid and quite simply childish justification for anything.

      One other point, the people of the Levant, before Judaism and in its early years, colonised north Africa (carthage) Greece, southern Italy and Sicily….

      are they going to claim these lands too?

      Reply
    • lol if you actually go back over what i said there lad you will see that i deplore cluster bombs but i guess that your so locked in mindset ready to argue that anything anyone says you wont see the meaning if it does not meet your criteria. 60 years ago there was indeed justification in capturing lands from hostile leadership that was using areas to launch attacks on Israel ( again ready my post on the un partition and its rejection) in modern times there is no justification really. They do use the rocket claims and security claims which are valid to a point but they have indeed taken more land for settlements and all they are doing is putting those settlements in harms way and evicting the Palestinians already there who call that area home. So no i dont agree with modern day expansion at all and Israel should be held to account for that. the Palestinians day one should have accepted the un proposal but they didn’t so anyway now their only option really is to engage in politics, peacefully and attempt via peaceful means to get back what they had via politics, they don’t have other options really. If we are talking about civilian deaths fair enough but what is the cause?? maybe its the fact that hamas and Hezbollah launch and store weapons from areas where they can use human shields. Anyways im not gonna change your mind your not going to change mine :)

      Reply
  • I’ve read some of the comments here and am really puzzled. Are there really still people out there who don’t believe that Jews have a valid historical claim to the land Israel? Get real!
    I actually happen to be on tour in Israel at the moment and have personally seen ruins of towns and synagogues dating back to the 2nd century AD and there is much more ancient evidence than that. By the way, in the 2nd century AD Islam did not even exist yet and neither did the Palestinian people for that matter. Both of these later two things are fairly recent inventions.
    As for the article, Abbas is probably just stirring the pot in advance of the election. That’s my take on it.

    Reply
  • Or not. PA: Abbas did not relinquish right of return http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=290327
    Abbas is also the leader of Fatah whose constitution states under goals: Article (12) Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence. How does Abbas intend to square that circle?

    A standard Palestinian tactic is to make moderate statements and then deny them virtually immediately under the assumption that allows them to appear as conciliatory and still be radical at the same time. The current PA line is that Abbas was only talking about his lack of personal intention to return to Safad and gave nothing away. He succeeded once again in deluding the naive that the Palestinians are ready to make compromises. THEY ARE NOT.

    How ridiculous is it that the President of the Palestinian Authority and possible President of the to-be-recognised by the UN State of Palestine (and multi-millionaire BTW) can still call himself a refugee and the world doesn’t laugh out loud?

    Reply
    • Another standard tactic is to say one thing in English for western consumption and something quite different in Arabic for the home audience.
      Here’s Abbas’ chief negotiator Nabil Shaath on Lebanese TV in July 2011, three weeks after he had been in Ireland doing media interviews to convince everyone of the essential moderation of the Palestinian goals — only wanting 22% of ‘historic Palestine’ in a 2-state solution etc.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CkImOGcHcw

      Reply
  • I don’t know whether they should or not relinquish but having a head of government that can see more sides to the coin and is ballsy and capable enough to speak about it is absolutely fantastic. Well done Mr. Abbas! Man of the year.

    Reply
  • Israel is a fact,a country and it is not going away. President Abbas knows that the only way forward is through negotiation without the bombs and bullets.

    Reply
    • Yeah, Joe, cos Israel has all the bombs and bullets(including the nukes it introduced into the region while moralising about everyone else’s designs).

      And if it gets stuck for ammo Uncle Sam and her Majestic britannic Firm will top up the arsenal.

      Now negotiate your capitulation or we send in the white phosphorous again.

      Shalom.

      Reply
    • A rather simplistic view of a complex situation. I suppose you would like to see another Arab Spring in Israel. We have seen the results of that and facts speak for themselves. I think we would all like to see peace in Palestine but as long as kids are brainwashed by sick psychopathic religious fanatics this cycle of violence will continue.
      I support the Palestinian right to its homeland but also Israel’s right to exist and defend itself.

      Reply
    • ‘..right to defend itself..’.

      By ongoing militarised theft of that same ‘Palestinian homeland’?

      Don’t you recognise the difference between offense and defense?

      Until you do you won’t be promoting peace for anyone.

      And less with your suppositions. That is not the way of dialogue.

      Reply
  • “less than 10 percent of israelis have true ancestors in the land now called Israel.”

    Oh really, how’d you come up with that figure.

    “the rest are whatbyou call ashkenazi jews who are actually from Europe and have no claim except saying I practice Judaism.”

    Genetics and history would say otherwise.

    Even Jews who are not of Hebrew or whatever origin, they still have a right to have their own homeland. Especially when they have been persecuted heavily in the Middle East, Northern Africa, and Europe. Maybe if people were more tolerant there wouldn’t be such problems.

    Reply
    • genetics would be very interesting also about homeland if every tribe demanded their right to a homeland we would have great fun. I have no problem with race or religion just stop calling your selves the master race or the chosen ones or what ever.

      Reply
    • “I have no problem with race or religion just stop calling your selves the master race or the chosen ones or what ever.”

      @Simon – I have a number of Jewish friends here in America; I have never once heard them proclaim to be part of a “master” race of claim they are the “chosen” people. There are radicals/supremacists in every religion/nationality. There is a very very small sect like this in Judaism. I have come across a number of Muslims and some Palestinians here in America who have been extremely nasty towards me because they find out my background, that I am not Muslim and get extremely mad with my objections to Islam. Not to mention the racist remarks I have gotten from some of them because I am mixed with white (Irish). I have been in discussions with some Palestinians before not relating to Israel/Palestine (on local politics) and have been threatened and called some of the worst names possibly by them. So Islam and Palestine can go to hell for all I care; they are some of the most intolerant/supremacist people I have ever come across.

      o 1995 study, 31% of Israelis do not believe in God, with an additional 6% choosing ‘don’t know,’ for a total of 37% being atheist or agnostic.
      o Ireland is a far more religious country than Israel. In fact, Israel is one of the most secular countries in the world.
      o 1999 study, 29 percent of Israeli Jews said they were “non-religious” but “somewhat observant”.
      o 18 percent said they were “non-religious” and “totally non-observant”.
      o 4 percent said they were “anti-religious” and “totally non-observant”.
      o Only 65 percent of Israeli Jews believe in God.

      Reply
  • Kevin is correct, and is not cherry-picking. These areas are historically Israel’s – captured by people now known as Islamists, and It is indeed the “Palestinians” (Aegeans, Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians, Lebanese) who are trying to expand, by falsely claiming historically Jewish areas as their own, when there is no genuine historical attachment. If you are looking for unbiased, two-sided, propaganda-free fact-checking, try http://www.mideastweb.org. If you want to see the Muslim side of things, read the Quran, where it states at least twice that Mohammed (Allah) believed that Israel belongs to the Jews.
    Denying Israeli Jews Israel is like telling the Northern Irish that they are invaders on British land.

    Reply
    • Mick 05/11/12 #

      Read this “Ossie”
      http://semiticcontroversies.blogspot.ie/2012/03/herodotus-palestine-and-jews.html

      And when you make claims such as “These areas are historically Israel’s” why don’t you back them up with sources?

      Reply
    • @Mick Why do you not paractice what you preach? An opinion by a well known neo nazi is not a reliable balanced source on the Middle East in ancient times. Here is my source for that http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2010/06/12/why-i-am-an-anti-semite/

      Its fine to make claims backed by sources, however if they are not reliable expert sources, you are just regurgitating someone elses bulls**t opinion.

      Reply
    • Ossie
      not sure about the history you are reading. I used to be a great fan of israel in the 70s. I deplore the treatment of jews across christian Europe, Ireland also can hang its head in shame, but there needs to be justice on all sides.
      Also I think your assessment of northern ireland is a bit off course the situation is a bit the same, planters displacing the resident population.

      Reply
    • Ossie, your quite mad! Your argument has absolutely NO basis in fact.

      Even if you could prove that thousands of years ago the ancestors of a certain people’s occupied lands, that does NOT entitle them to said lands. What about any people’s who occupied the area before the Jews? Do they have a right to the land?

      The Israelis have a major problem with reality. just by saying something doesn’t make it true….even if you drop cluster bombs on children’s schools

      Reply
    • Eh, historically Israel’s? I think you need to brush up on your history. Israel was put there by the UK and the US in 1948 and in the process displacing Palestinians etc making them refugees in their own territory. Israel is a new country birthed by guilt and as a result assumes entitlement. They were given a country and they got greedy and this is the result.

      Reply
  • David Guy: ‘A standard Palestinian tactic is to make moderate statements and then deny them virtually immediately under the assumption that allows them to appear as conciliatory and still be radical at the same time.’

    Another standard tactic is to say one thing in English for western consumption and something quite different in Arabic for the home audience.
    Here’s Abbas’ chief negotiator Nabil Shaath on Lebanese TV in July 2011, three weeks after he had been in Ireland doing media interviews to convince everyone of the essential moderation of the Palestinian goals — only wanting 22% of ‘historic Palestine’ in a 2-state solution etc.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CkImOGcHcw

    Reply
  • He’s just like Irish politicians,not carrying out the will of the people who graciously elected him

    Reply
    • The D4 lefties are going to love this chance to have a go at The UK/US/Israel while ignoring the actions of their buddies in Iran/Syria/Gaza as they continue to oppress & murder their own people without protest. The hypocrisy is astounding.

      Reply
    • Well said Reginald. Top hole, by George, stick it to the native wallah what, old boy.

      Which branch of the deep-dyed righties are you?Killiney Blues?Malahide Irgun?

      Where should we invade and civilise next, eh?

      Decisions, decisions.

      Reply
    • to ivory tower so we should ignore all injustices in the world as most of them are historically attributable to western meddling

      Reply
  • The Palestinians must be taking their medication this week….

    “Farouk Kaddoumi, a veteran PLO official, dropped a political bombshell Wednesday with a call for “returning” the West Bank to Jordan.

    Kaddoumi, who is based in Tunisia, said he supported the idea of a federation or confederation between the West Bank and Jordan. His remarks, which came during an interview with the London-based Al- Quds Al-Arabi newspaper, are the first of their kind to be voiced by a senior PLO figure in decades.”

    http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=289948

    Reply
  • Arabs have been one of biggest colonizers on this planet. Northern Africa? Enslaving and converting the Africans to Islam? Forcing the Hebrews out centuries ago from their homeland? The Jews have a right to Israel, its their ancestors homeland. Even before the creation of Israel, Jews have been constantly persecuted in Arab countries. Comparing Ireland and Israel is moronic. Ireland has been settled/invaded numerous times even before the plantations. There is no such thing as the “real” or “pure” Irish. People love to re-write history and spin it to their own political objectives/agenda.

    Reply
    • Complete crap. “The Jews” are not a nationality. The fact that I can convert to Judaism and then have more ‘right’ to live in palestine than palestinians that were ethnically cleansed from their homes is sickening.

      Reply
    • As much as I support a two state solution, something you said there is very telling Kevin.
      It’s their ancestors homeland.
      Whereas there are people living on land in Palestine now who are being forced from their homes (and Bedouins in Israel too).
      We can’t go and evict the Israelis who have lived there for the past 50 years, as they are now their own generations of Israeli people, but for them to insist upon expanding is like rubbing salt in the wound and engendering ill feeling toward them, leading to violence, which Israel and the West term “terrorism”. It’s not the right thing to do, but back anyone into a corner with fear and they will lash out eventually.

      If Israel stopped expanding, stopped adding insult to injury, these “terrorists” would be less justified in the eyes of their supporters. This support would diminish as Israel would be seen to actually be trying to consider a two state solution. It is only because of Israels actions that they have any support at all.

      Reply
    • Damnit, my HTML is rusty..
      It’s their ANCESTORS homeland. Not all of theirs. Whereas the Palestinians who’s homes are being bulldozed to make room for settlements are being forced from their land NOW.

      There are generations of Israelis settled in now, to force them out would be equally as wrong as what they are doing to Palestinians now. But they could stop expanding.. If they did this it would show that they were serious about a two state solution and the support for extremists would subside. At present what assurance have they that Israel will show them any respect politically, or morally?
      Back anyone into a corner and eventually they will lash out, can you blame them for what they feel is self defence? Stop making them feel threatened and they will calm down.. This is what I cannot understand about Israels actions, it’s almost as though they are trying to provoke..

      Reply
    • It is NOT the ancestral home of the vast majority of Israelis. The vast majority are converts from Eastern Europe during the middle ages. They are Khazars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars – thus they have absolutely no right or mandate from God as the chosen people are any other such rubbish.

      During the start of the last century, the Zionist Assocation decided that current day Israel is where they wanted to settle, they were even considering Argentina.

      Reply
    • Ten years ago, the Arab League offered Israel full recognition in exchange for its withdrawing to its legal borders and agreeing a just solution for the Palestinian refugees. The formula was agreed by the Palestinian leadership but rejected by Israel. Such a pity, such a waste. And the colonisation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem continues daily.

      Reply
    • Kevin, your cherry picking of history is quite the joke and insulting to followers of factual history. Next you’ll expect us to believe the Israeli ancestors build the pyramids?

      Reply
    • The “Palestinians” (Arabs) stole the Hebrews lands originally; should the Hebrews just suck it up? Who cares if many are converts and not of Hebrew origin. Jews are one of the most persecuted groups in history. Ethiopian Jews? Ashkenazis (who are Hebrew)? Pyramids? I’m Atheist, so I’m not sure what your point is. A two-state solution is a reasonable solution; I don’t know how one could argue with that.

      Reply
    • Petr, years ago yassar Arafat was offered everything he asked for but then turned around and said no. Certain people had bent over backwards for him but he still said no.

      Reply
    • @ Kevin.
      You mention Ethiopian Jews.
      As I understand it they are treated not much better than the Arabs are in that shining beacon of democracy that is modern Israel.

      Reply
    • You don’t understand much then Stephen, not to mention the Arab minorities such as The Druze who are much better treated in Israel than by their fellow Arabs. They even serve in the Israeli army.

      Reply
    • Still pushing the totally discredited Khazar lie then Seán?
      From your own link: “In August 2012, Dr. Harry Ostrer summarizing his, as well as all genetic studies carried out in last 20 years, stated in his book “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People” that all major Jewish groups do have common Middle Eastern origin, originating from ancient Israelites, and refuted any large scale genetic contribution from the Turkic Khazars.[83″

      Reply
    • Hey Kevin
      read a bit of history the jews did very well under Islam historically much better then under Christianity only in more recent times has that turned sour. We are people of the book unfortunately, pagans tend to be more tolerant .

      Reply
    • What about the Bedouins? They were forced off their land in Israel in the last decade because, to quote the man Chaim Yevin spoke to in ‘Beyond the TV News: Arabs in Israel’, they were “expanding too fast”.

      They were taken from their land which they had been farming, and placed in ghost estates with no employment prospects or farmland. Their very way of life was stolen from them.
      These, the same Bedouins who fought on the side of Israel in the war.. They didn’t feel as though they were being treated well. They felt they had been robbed and then left out in the cold.

      Also, none of the Arabs that Mr Yevin spoke to in his travelogue felt they were treated well, what with being paid less for equal work (for those who live in Israel), being forced from their land and seeing their homes bulldozed, having to line up at the wall to be picked for a days work.. And as for the Israelis that Mr Yevin spoke to – they seemed utterly compassionless to the plight of their Arab neighbours. He (Mr Yevin) said himself that he was unaware of this happening in his own country – and he had always thought that as lead anchor on the main evening news that he would have been well informed.. You can’t blame him for thinking he would be, but from going out and actually talking to people he found that the Israel he reported on was different to the truth.

      Reply
    • @Simon – That is an absolute lie. I am half-Pakistani and have commented about how non-Muslims are treated in Pakistan on Journal articles, only to have Pakistanis/Muslims on here to call me a liar and that I am being “hateful”. I remember also hearing this Irish so-called “comedian” on RTE saying that Pakistanis are very open-minded people and are not radical like the news paints. He claimed he made a joke about Jesus while on stage in Lahore and they all took it well. Then he goes on “remember Muslims consider Jesus a Prophet”. Yeah I’d love to see him make a joke about Muhammala and see how that goes. Will they laugh at that? He wouldn’t even make it off stage alive. Muslims don’t care if you mock Jesus or Abraham or whatever, even if they claim its part of their “religion”. The Jews have a right to Israel. People complain oh the poor Arabs were kicked off “their” lands? Um, why did all the Hebrews immigrate to Europe hundreds of years ago. Was it just a long-term vacation? There has never been an independent Palestine; the Ottoman Empire (Muslim) controlled those lands before Israel became an official state. What is wrong with a two-state solution? Is that not fair? Let’s also remember the Palestinians rejected that solution years ago; peace is clearly not part of the plan for them. Why were they also on 9/11 on the streets of Palestine and AMERICA (it’s beyond me why they live in a country they hate) cheering and celebrating the attacks? That’s just sick, especially when Americans are jumping from the towers to their death so they don’t burn alive in plane fuel and their bodies can be found by their loved ones. Israel is not the problem. Islamic/Arab supremacy is.

      Reply
    • The Jews that took a holiday in Europe that you speak of, do you mean the diaspora? Because I was under the impression that this was commonly associated with the destruction of Jerusalem by the ROMANS?

      Also, what happened with the Jews and Muslims in Spain? Didn’t they appeal to the Muslims for help against the Catholic and Christian persecution they were experiencing? Apparently they were even more hated than pagans in Iberia.. And didn’t the meeting and melding of the Sephardic Jews and Muslims advance the so called “Golden Age”?

      Or are we talking about a different vacation?

      Reply
    • @Shanti – Your point? I like how you try to paint yourself as this so-called “moderate” by saying your for a two-state solution. You just say that so you can promote your anti-Israel propaganda. Your justification of Arab/Islamic supremacy is disgusting. Long Live Israel!

      Reply
    • To Kevin
      Islam didn’t drive the jews out of the middle east the Romans, Babylonians Egyptians Assyrians, did I miss a few??
      Also I was born in India and I am under no illusion about Pakistani Islamists there is no black and white in this argument but it does no good to deny the pastor we will never learn, though this suits the great powers as this keeps us fighting each other and not looking at the real problems.

      Reply
    • Where exactly am I justifying Islamic supremicism?
      I have said Israel needs to stop expanding, but I don’t think Israel should be handed back.. Nor do I agree with EITHER side using violence to further their aims.
      I merely said that if you back someone into a corner you can’t complain when they retaliate.

      All three of them, Jew, Christian and Muslim. They’re all as bad as each other, granted Islam is a few centuries behind but they’re not doing anything the Christians didn’t do before them, or the Jews before them.. They’re all elitist, deluded, bigoted warmongers. It’s part of those despicable religions. It’s in the scripture.

      I’d really like to see the world without religions. Then maybe we could get some perspective on the actual problem which is a land grab situation.. If we didn’t have loony scripture munchers claiming “divine rights” a lot more progress would be made.

      But by all means, reduce yourself to the level where you must attack *me* rather than what I have said.

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    • @Simon – I wasn’t planning on going that far back to the Romans. But Aegean’s, Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians, Lebanese, and Arabs from other states have been settling/invading Israel for a long time. They all share a common religion as well, if Israelis weren’t Jewish; no one would care. Islam is the main reason for hating Jews in the Middle East; the overwhelming majority of Arab/Muslims hate Jews. I don’t like any religion but when people compare other religions to Islam in present-day that is simply moronic. Islam still lives in the Crusades. We don’t have a Christian or Jewish terror problem, at least that I am aware of. “I am under no illusion about Pakistani Islamists there is no black and white in this argument but it does no good to deny the pastor we will never learn”. Uh this is not the past this is the present. Raping, Mutilating, Torturing, Burning Down Homes, Beheading, and Stoning non-Muslims is still going on in Pakistan and in Middle Eastern Countries. These practices are acceptable and I take great offense when over 80% of Pakistanis are for executing apostates from Islam.

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  • The old hasbara machine is well oiled and churning along nicely.

    Anyone not familiar with the term, search it for yourself. There are valuable lessons in the exercise.

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    • I actually suspect the likes of Kevin and Stewie don’t know what it means. Stewie never heard of Benny Morris, Ilan Pappé, or Avi Shlaim. We’re dealing with blank slates here; still it’s funny to observe how informed they seem to think they are!

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  • Although Fatah and Hamas hate each other and shows no signs of forming a united Palestinian leadership, from Israel’s point of view there is little to choose between them.

    Here is the highest religious authority in the Palestinian Authority, Mufti Muhammad Hussein, at a Fatah 47th anniversary celebration event broadcast on PA TV, 9 Jan 2012. He presents killing of Jews as an Islamic religious goal: “Muslims’ destiny is to kill Jews”. And the moderator at the event adds: “Our war with the descendants of apes and pigs [Jews] is a war of religion and faith”.
    http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=6098

    And here is Hamas prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh making it as clear as can be that ending the ‘occupation’ means annihilating Israel:
    http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2729.htm

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  • less than 10 percent of israelis have true ancestors in the land now called Israel. the rest are whatbyou call ashkenazi jews who are actually from Europe and have no claim except saying I practice Judaism.

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    • No matter how many times you and others push the Khazar lie it`ll remain a lie. If you don`t believe me just look at the genetic studies that clearly state the Askenazi Jews are the descendants of the Israelites,

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    • 10%? lol where did you get that figure? Do you even know the origins of Ashkenazi Jews? Yes there are Jews that are not of Hebrew origin, your point? Arabs don’t have any more right to Israel than Jews of non-Hebrew origin do. Where is the outcry over the constant repeated genocide of Jews in Arab/North African States and Europe? Why do you think most Jews around the world have immigrated to Israel?

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    • “The Palestinians have no commitment to democracy. They attack almost exclusively liberal democracies, and consistently support tyranny throughout the world. The Palestinian leadership supported the Nazis, the Soviet Union, communist China, Nasser’s Egypt, Saddam’s Iraq, Castro’s Cuba and Qaddafi’s Libya. The Palestinians should be ashamed of their history.”

      “Their complaints are pure hypocrisy anyway. The Islamic world does not hate Israel because they care about the human rights of the Palestinians. If they cared about human rights they would have human rights in their own countries. The Islamic world hates Israel because, well, essentially because they are Jews. If they were Muslims, doing exactly the same things, no one in the Arab world would care.”

      “This is why I support Israel. I support any liberal democracy anywhere in the world – South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India, South Africa, Israel, the South American democracies, Eastern Europe, and of course the traditional West. And I especially support any democracy fighting against non-democratic tyranny – as in the case of Israel, whose opponents are not democrats but rather tribal racists and totalitarian religious maniacs. If Israel was not a democracy, I wouldn’t support it. If the Palestinians were democrats, I would support them. But they’re not, so I don’t. Israel is the only country in the entire region where I, an atheist, could live without being persecuted. That is all one has to say really. We all know this in our hearts in the West. We all know this is true.”
      Source: http://markhumphrys.com/israel.html

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  • padraig 05/11/12 #

    It is at least clear that Abbas is a prize bungler. He should retire and give a younger, secular minded politician a chance or dissolve the Palestinian Authority. Hamas have shown themselves to be steadier, but Abbas doesn’t seem minded to make a genuine deal with them

    Reply

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