Flyer thru-ers!!! Read this comment again and weep! Thanks Mark and Anna.

Hmmm. Due to my age, the memory is beginning to go. So I have no recollection of water metering in the UK during Thatcher’s time. Not sure it’s universal even now. You’re right though. It was privatised and the British are still as wasteful as ever. Now, during the war…

Not merely comment of the week — I nominate you for Comment of the Year already. :)

I second that nomination.

Brilliant, wish I could thumb you up times 100!

God forbid they ever bring in comment tax, +1

Refuse tags?!?!? Do you mean 1920?

Brilliant!!!

agreed

Dream on Gary . This’charge’ is another fund raiser for the banks.

Agreed, Gary. I would also add that “everyone must pay” if this charge goes ahead. I will be totally against this charge if there are exceptions and exemptions. I’m sick and tired of working my butt off to pay these extra bills while I watch certain people being “exempt” from many from them.

@Anthony That’s what I meant with ‘no exceptions’. I don’t think I can buy any argument that hard pressed families need more water than others. A fair and equal amount for each person regardless of their income status.

like that will happen…..it will be used to pay for the other elephants in the room.

i agree kevin, except its not really an elephant tho
its a raging ravenous tiger

Income tax just pays for the bank debt.

What I don;t understand here, is why don’t they take it out of the property tax? What does the property tax go towards?

Interest on the Bank debt!

@Rommel Burke, I stand corrected !

Toxic sludge? Yeah, I see people dropping in the street every day from flouride poisoning. Dial back the crazy there a notch or two and people may listen more.

Crazy ….. How is it crazy to imagine that an incredibly harmful substance put into water can in turn make that water a dangerous substance. No you certainly wont find people dropping on the streets but if you go to any hospital or A&E you will certainly see the side effects, Ie the shocking rise in osteoporosis, irritable bowel syndrome, arthritis and thyroid dysfunctions in Ireland and any other of the few remaining bastions of Fluoridation. I don`t know why I am debating with you though as from what you have written and from what I have seen of you on here before you have little to add to any practical level headed debate.

A couple more glasses over here for P Wurple please. The sedation is wearing off!!!

I’d like to see a referendum on it actually, and any pro fluoride input from Dr. O’Mullane, UCC, (he is one of the main pushers of mass fluoridation, WHO associated) be put aside and have only actual factual health pro’s and cons highlighted, given the fact we are the last democratic country to mass fluoridate yet any mass effort or questions asking why or why not we can stop this, gets stonewalled and the same “its prevents tooth decay in children” crap. We have as high tooth decay levels as countries which does not mass fluoridate and what about the fact O’Mullane has admitted that 50% of children in fluoridated areas have dental fluorosis, the first indicator of fluoride poisoning. His main objective is that we all have a continuous level of it in our saliva to prevent decay, without applying credit to the fact that its also mass poisoning over a live time.

Yes, P Wurple, it is toxic, one of the worst known to humans, and it is at a 25-40% concentration within water and other heavy metal poisons making it a toxic sludge.
Albatros and Chemifloc have been on off supplying this to the Irish Govt. for decades.

Damhsa. Left a post re same above. De Burka case 1973. Right to bodily integrity. They can’t charge us while adding harmful chemicals. ;)

Where to start… I shouldnt even both rising to this where there are claims of 40% concentration of it in water. Do you even understand how a percentage works? 60 % water and 40% fluoride, come on!

Heavy metal? Reconsult your periodic table. Nothing of the sort. Light halogen if anything! It is also perfectly natural substance which is also in most food you eat, plus the soil everything grows in. The health benefits are well documented, especially here in ireland, where our dental compliance isn’t the best.

And Democratic countries who add fluoride? Try australia, sweden and france (added to all salt in france) for a start.

Guys, i am all for a reasonable debate, but let us start by making it reasonable. :)

I’m talking about the sludge as that’s the form it is imported in, not that there is 40% concentration in the water supply. We dont use actual fluoride in the water in its crystalised/powder form as its far to expensive and the govt would have to actually pay for it. Currently it is brought in from Denmark or Finland or hmm I believe used to to be made in wexford at a fertilzer plant during the 80′s/90′s. This is a deemed as expensive plant waste and is donated to the councils. where they only pay for shipping and upkeep of vehicles used. The levels in the water supply are of the scale of 1.3 – 3ppm but it is has been found to be much higher.
U hear over and over again that the Govt. deem it necessary to add it to our water when it’s been banned outright in over 20 countries and deemed actually unethical to mass fluoridate! Where does good auld Ireland see itself as indifferent to the conclusions of so many other countries yet you can only name a three. France adding it to salt is different in two ways, one being its not mass administered, dont like fluoride, dont take salt and two it’s not the same chemical as the poison put in our water.

I’d like to make a correction to the amount of fluoride added to tap water, its currently from the Progress Report on Fluoride issued by the Dept.. of Health

“The lowering of the amount of fluoride being added to water from 0.8-1.0mg/l to 0.6-0.8mg/l”
And from an official at Inniscarra Water Works:
- The PPM of fluoride is 0.6 – .08.
- The PPM of fluoride used to be 0.8 – 1.2 until a Task Force approached MFH Mary Harney
and Chemifloc Limited sources hydrofluorosilic acid from a plant (i.e. factory) named Derivados Del Fluor in Cantabria, Spain. Not Denmark or Holland as I had previously thought.

“Each batch of HFSA 10.9% that is produced by the supplier has a representative sample taken and analysed and a Certificate of Analysis is produced stating the actual test results”
Not 25-40% concentration in the sludge is its imported in as I claimed earlier.
I had been a some time since I had read into the subject.

I don’t know brendan, I think we were fed that line rip cover up for the fact that huge amounts of water are lost through the pipes. There are some people who stupidly do that with their taps but I don’t think that they are the reason we are going to be charged. If the councils had invested in fixing and upgrading the system there wouldn’t be so much water wasted. I personally haven’t decided on it yet. But I think paying water charges would annoy me less than paying the household charge (which I am definitely nit paying).

One of our neighbors went away for a couple weeks last winter when we had the bad freeze. He left his taps on just enough that there was water constantly dribbling. He expected it would prevent his pipes from freezing in his absence. Then one evening when the weather got really bad, his mother came over in a fit of upset because the pipes had frozen the burst and water was coming trough the ceiling from the upstairs bathroom. Also floods on the downstairs floors from that and bathrooms on that level. Of course, contractors put in TWO mains shut off valves . . . one behind the dishwasher, which meant knocking though the cabinets to get at it because the dishwasher feet were cemented into the floor(!), and the other behind the clothes washer in the utility room! Fortunately for them we’d had a minor burst in our downstairs shower (no damage thank goodness) and found the valves the previous day so we know just where to go. But still, crazy places to put mains!

Fortunately we’re just renting this house. Our owned house with the well is in West Cork and currently up for sale.

Anyway, imagine . . . leaving your taps on and going on holidays!

No way! The user should pay, why should I subsidise someone who’s really wasteful of water. Water is a utility just like electricity, gas etc. Time to get used to that fact.

I think that’s fair enough then…

Biggins 31
I seem to be agreeing with you a lot recently. Yes I agree with you here too. I am amazed at the fact that it is all decided and arrangements are in place already. Well I will not be paying the house hold charge , however we can not live without water and the metre will be installed, we will not have a choice but to pay.
I am angry all the time when I read all of these austerity measures.

http://irishthoughtsandall.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/household-charge-how-to-legally-avoid-paying-it/

This has been doing the rounds on Facebook in relation to the household tax? Does anyone know if it is true or not?

Thank you Eileen – maybe you should consider joining the IDP – LOL

Anyway, don’t others get me wrong – everyone should pay something for use of clean water – considering how much it costs to get it clean, the maintaining of piping systems etc…
When we pay for the use of something though – we know the money we pay is going towards something directly related to it.
(…So where does that leave the home owners tax? Where’s that money going to?)

A further thought:
When you get charged for something, usually you know your getting charged for something your using.
Fair enough but we are getting charged now for a home we are using – one that most of use are still in the process of separately paying off in mortgage payments – so if they are going to charge us for water in that house, at the very least water consumption should be at least part of the final eventual bill for everything under that one roof, going to the government alone?

How many charges does FG & Labour think they can add on for four walls and a roof, payable to them?
Whats next? A tax for having a drive way or a garden?

hadn’t seen that gareth. I was actually wondering why we aren’t getting a bill. I haven’t registered and won’t be paying so we shall see.

@Gareth and Niamh: The premise of that blog entry is flawed and the easiest answer to avoid typing for hours to come is No, that is not true. The household charge unfortunately has the force of law and if you ended up in Court you would have to pay it. You can’t ignore statute, it is the law, there is no issue of consent on it. If you want to bring such issues up then theoretically you consent to it by electing the government of the day (regardless of whether you voted, or who you voted for). Having said that though it is highly unlikely you will end up in Court over not paying the charge, but they’ll find other ways to take it off you. Why they are not sending out bills is more than likely to avoid the time it would take, the amount of paper, and postage it would cost, tracking down all addresses and who owns them, its just simpler to have everyone register themselves and pay at their own convenience.

Thanks for the reply Tobias.

Depends where you live Biggins. I’ll be paying the household charge because I’m an owner occupier (once mortgage paid off aged 70, anyway). Being a rural dweller, I’ll also pay the septic tank fee. Not too worried as the house is a recent build. The tank/percolation area conforms to a high standard. Rather surprisingly, we had a water meter installed almost as soon as the announcement was made some time last year. Surprising? Well yes. We’re on a group water scheme (so no fluoride). Like many rural dwellers, we’ve paid towards our water supply for years. Like many middle-income families we can well afford these charges. If Ireland had a property tax during the “Tiger” years, we’d be in less of a mess now. Instead the state relied on stamp duty, VAT and other income streams from the property boom. If we’d had water charges, we might be less wasteful and demand a quality, leak-free supply (thinking of Galway, Ennis, etc).

If people on good incomes were prepare to pay a decent rate of tax to support those less well-off, we wouldn’t be witnessing the decimation of health, education and social welfare services. Anyone seen the HSE service plan. Now that’s something to be worried about…

You can’t be billed for a service you don’t recieve…………………oh hang on…………..

Hardly!

Well if they are saying everyone will have a meter installed and connected to the mains they are going to have a job on their hands . I am miles from mains water and have my own well .

Exactly, Rommel! Hence my concern….

Already paying for the running and upkeep of my own well (new pump just before Christmas) so no way am I in favour. This revenue well is dry! :)

It will be metered. So, no, you won’t get a bill.

because you aren’t able to control your own consumption?

silly response Jules….. read it again.. it could be calculated on your family size” then we would learn to be more responsible with this valuable resource….

Not sure but presumably taps left on during cold spells to supposedly stop pipes cracking?

I know, its a strange practice. People do it when weather is cold to stop their pipes freezing….stupid wasteful people.

Gottcha! Cheers guys.

I can’t believe people actually do that by the way. I agree with Niamh, I find it very strange and incredibly wasteful.

Why all of a sudden We have to pay Water Charges and Home Tax?? It’s to pay Over paid Bankers and Developers, BONDHOLDERS ,and the Extremely Over paid Politician… The pipes will still be leaking millions of galloons per day and the old rusty pipes will not be replaced even serviced
And suddenly anyone who is leaving taps running over night are being called names Well back in the days Folk were always advised to keep taps running to keep their taps from freezing and clear .
Being charged for water us the very same as the Home tax given that we pay taxes from our income and that us to cover all local expenses we also pay PRSI AND USC,s and we still have to pay for our casualties and when are people going to cop on to the brain washing of the politicians my home has not cost anyone else in this country one cent and never will it cost me plenty of worry,sweat and sometimes tear but I got there without ever costing the state one cent but through this Government I NOW HAVE TO PAY THIS GOVERNMENT RENT FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE we struggled to buy our own like the Million and a half other home owners what was it all for I ask

I meant to say I will be paying rent to this government on My own home for the rest of my life????

Apologies bernadette, I should have said people stupidly wasting resources.

Do we? Why do people who live in stand alone houses have to pay for their own water supply then? I smell bullshit!

It’s there alright Reg. A lot of constitutional rights not met though.

But if you pour yourself a glass of water and smell it Reg, you’ll smell more than BS. ;)

Just had a quick scan of the constitution, don’t see anything about the free supply of running water to homes. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

I still smell bullshit!

Reg. De Burka case 1973. Right to bodily integrity. They can’t charge us while adding harmful chemicals.

Playing with the words perhaps. But that’s what our justice system has been reduced to. It’s not the “scales of justice”. It should be called the “FIND THE LOOPHOLE”!!!

Desalination plants are really expensive to run. They use a lot of energy.

There’s no need for a desalination plant. At present the majority of waste in our water supply comes from leaks in the mains – which need fixing, but the fact that they expect us to front up on the understanding that they will fix it is laughable. They made no effort to fix it before when they were raking in the tax during the boom..

Following your line there, Tom. You could have got a shovel, dug up some rocks and clay. A saw and cut down some trees. And built your house for nothing. Luckily, you had a magic wand…

Washing machines live longer with Calgon!

Sorry I’m 5 minutes late Paul but here I am. Don’t want to pay for water because it rains too much.

@Réada: no problem. Collect the rainwater and use it. Disconnect your house from the water main. Problem solved.

I’d agree with them, as long as each house is given a certain amount for free i.e an amount for washing cleaning and drinking and then anything extra is paid for.

We have far from clean drinking water in the first place as it is, the smell from the tap most days knock me back until the tap runs for a minute or two. How in earth can another govt. run (revenue making) scheme provide any cleaner or better water?
Saying that, if they promised not to add Hydrofluorosilicic Acid to my drinking water I may consider it. I’d pay for the choice of not being poisoned even though I shouldn’t have to in the first place.
Its a known poison and is illegally added to our water. Quit their lies and 1950s rhetoric

http://www.fluoridefreewater.ie/

When they stop adding the sedative to the water come back to me Paul, we have the highest amount of fluoride added to our water in Europe. :-)

So what paid for the water originally?
I know it’s quite an expensive process and the amount wasted here (a lot due to shitty old pipes) is just not acceptable.

Exactly @Reada .. if they stopped adding fluoride I wouldn’t mind paying for it. Safe, clean drinking water straight from the tap sounds like a great idea. As it is, no way.

The flouride arguments are pretty specious. You’re paying for your water supply now through central revenue – if you don’t want flouride in it, campaign to have it removed. Conflating the flouride issue with the question over billing for usage is disingenuous, at best.

Right to bodily integrity. Constitutional right

@Réada

Wrong.

In Ryan v AG, Supreme Court ruled that the fluoridation of the public water supplies did not breach one’s right to bodily integrity, which was also only recognised for the first time in that case. You’re about 40 years too late with that rhetoric I’m afraid.

Levels are higher now muc beag. And we still have a constitution. For now…

Level of fluoride wasn’t/isn’t the issue, it was the fact that there’s zero scientific evidence to support the claims that you make. Read the judgments.

And yeah, if Labour get their way and draft a new constitution you can kiss goodbye to that unenumerated right as well as the dozens of others created by the Supreme Court since 1965.

Muc. Fluoride is the issue now! Do you work for the government? Obviously not Labour!

You’re still missing my point entirely. I’m going to stop bothering now.

do not want extra charge because already pay for it aka, paye ,vat on food ussc,vrt,overcharging on heating oil,subsidise people who never payed a penny tax in the country in their lives overpaid pensions to the golden circle how much more need i go on we just can not keep scraping the barrel

It is a double tax as revenue from taxes currently pays for its provision. Revenue from taxes do not go to the ESB, UPC or Aer Lingus. The current water supply of course isn’t free, it’s paid for by all of us already with our taxes.

So Brian, why are we having to borrow heavily to fund services if our current level of taxes pays for everything?

And before you mention bailing out the banks, we still have a substantial budget deficit before one penny goes to the banks.

as far as im aware if its underground on your property its yours

Diego,
That’s what I thought. We’re not on city or county mains and we handle our own septic. And when the water pump goes out, or anything in our pumphouse, we pay for it. We’re not reliant on the council for anything in that respect so I wouldn’t expect to be charged.

In that respect, I wonder what’s stopping more people from drilling wells of their own (aside from being in a city/town limit, that is)

i think the water charge is to pay for the provision of the water. If you take/took care of that yourself, then you dont pay. However all resources of course do belong to the state.

I don’t know about that Jules. The government gave away our oil and gas rights without consulting the people and are on the verge of giving away our forestry…

Trust is gone James. Privatisation!!! Sky’s the limit to what you’ll pay in the future.

But we don’t have clean water.. There’s lead piping and fluorosilic acid in our water (in some parts of the west cryptosporidium too, yummy!)

water is the most valuable resource on the planet. not charging for it (or like now not even measuring how much everyone uses) is insane!

Speak for urself.

Jonathan .
We are not idiots . We are beaten down ,with low self esteem and our confidence has been damaged . It is time for all of us to stand up and be counted.

Hear, hear!

As a nation we’re happy to pay every new tax and justify every old one while still expecting that “the government” will provide services with these taxes.
As a nation … we’re a bunch of idiots.

Amen Eileen Gabbett.

@Jonathan White:
From the comments and responses generally I’ve seen, the Irish are not opposed to taxes if they are actually going to what they claim to be for and we see the returned benefit, no on expects something for nothing.
We have objections and questions however to where these water charges will actually go as the EU seem to have a rather large say on it, along with the new house tax and everyone knows these are just to rake in money to pay off the bondholders and EU loans.
This “Get in line with Europe” line shouldn’t be bought into as we have a very different tax system to most of mainland Europe.

Let’s see..
We lose most of our water through the infrastructure, because in all the time during the boom our governments never bothered to address the problem.

Our government also spends millions per year forcibly medicating the public via the water supply with a toxic substance because they made the misguided assumption that ingestion must be better than topical application (which is the only beneficial application of fluoride – that’s why it’s in toothpaste, and why you’re not meant to swallow it)
Besides the fact that their rationale is flawed and it’s a waste of money – its also unconstitutional and unethical, but they’re happy to pour that money into the practice anyway..

Then there’s the fact that every one with half a brain in their head knows full well that this charge will not do anything about the problems, as it’s purely a revenue raising exercise for the bailout deal..

And let’s not forget the monumental over charging in the UK (was on watchdog last year). The meters measure the water that goes down a drain outside – eg, flushed water, drained sinks, baths and showers, and….RAIN WATER! One man on Watchdog was triple charged on his water rates for years because he was being charged for it raining..

And last but certainly not least, most people flat out cant afford any more taxes.. When you are skipping meals to pay the bills you have already taken too large a hit.

So.. Do we know how these meters are going to work? Will we be charged for rain water draining off our rooftops? Are the government going to cease fluoridation? Are the waterways going to be fixed? Are the lead pipes going to be replaced? Are people going to be guaranteed a water supply free of contaminants??

Because unless these issues are resolved, to expect us to pay water charges is just downright cheeky.