Comment of the year for me. Nicely put. :)

The church have fook all to do with it they kill aswel

In fairness, Eddie has a point, there. Stop scapegoating the church if you want to make a serious argument. You think that 40% of irish people, or whatever the ‘No’ vote is up there now are church-goers or even active RC’s?

The referenda in 1992 and 2002 were defeated. Whatever your personal position, the results of the referenda are not up for debate.

Perhaps when she studies the referendum returns in her own constituency and sees that a significant majority voted against this in both 1992 & 2002 bet your going to see one of the greatest about faces in political history.

More deluded pro-abortion nonsense. Many many people oppose abortion on demand, not because of their religion, but because of their humanity and their decency as human beings. Nothing to do with religion, nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church, nothing to do with bishops, so please stop pedaling this childish pathetic LIE.

If you want abortion on demand, then please bat for it on its merits, and stop this LIE that you are perpetuating that the only people who oppose pulling the limbs off a child and hoovering it out of a womb, are Roman Catholic right wing fundamentalists, because it is deeply deeply offensive to people who have the humanity and the decency to oppose abortion on demand, without requiring any coaxing or instruction whatsoever from the Roman Catholic church.

well said Micheal, abortion is wrong for many reasons I truly cant understand how anyone in the right mind can see the death of a child in the womb as acceptable…

It’s not a child, it’s a foetus. It’s a bundle of cells. It’s not sentient. It doesn’t even have arms that you could pull off in the first trimester.

By not allowing abortion, but allowing women to travel abroad for one unimpeded, we’re importing abortions. When we send women abroad for abortions, we give up our right as a sovereign state to decide how abortions take place, who should have access to them, and what’s the latest date at which you can have an abortion.

Unless we’re willing to imprison women and deny them their right to travel, then abortion is a reality in modern day Ireland. Lets just get over the emotive arguments, the hand wringing, and the ‘won’t someone please think of the children’ and just legislate for that reality.

Because Bridget life isn’t black and white or a cute and cuddly as you would like it to be. Anyone who saw the woman on the Vincent Brown show a week or two ago who had to travel to the UK for a termination should have empathy for people in difficult situations. Her baby, once born was not going to live for more than a few minutes once born but she had to travel to another country in order to avail of services that should have been available to here here.

The majority of people who oppose abortion are religious people and a large portion of them is already elderly people. You can cover it as much as you want but reality shows that any country where religion plays no role in everyday life, abortion is legal and vice versa. It has absolutely nothing to do with people’s personal beliefs that abortion is wrong but has everything to do with people being told by church members that it is wrong. When people are stopped being fed this line, abortion becomes legal. Reality is reality even if you opt to deny it.

@Kevin When do you believe a new born child becomes sentient? Look it up and try to find a consensus of what age psychiatrist believe children reach full consciousness – you’ll find ages ranging from 3 up to 7. If you’re reasoning is that fetus’s can be aborted because they are non-sentient, up until what age would you condone infanticide?

@Ciara Nice trolling.

No its a Libertarian dictatorship , where Libertarian views dominate the media and massive protests like the recent pro life one hardly make the front pages , also you are wrong to suggest it is only catholics who oppose abortion , the make up of people who oppose abortion is quite diverse , they come from all areas of society muslims,jews,protestants,catholics,non religious , all kinds of people have and do oppose because it is just plain wrong to destroy a life.

Silly comment. The protest was front and center of every news report last Saturday. Do you think people are stupid?

We did not make this decision.
Im tired saying this again and again.
Most pro lifers voted No in 1992
a large amount of them in 2002 (including Youth Defence and Dana, imagine if they had voted yes given the margin in a 50 50 result)

Ciara Clinton – Firstly, You should look up demographics of Europe,and see that Ireland has the youngest population in Europe, even despite forced emigration by the corrupt government(your wonderful government).
Secondly if you ventured into the massive 25,000 to 30,000 crowd in Merrion square, you would see the amount
of teenagers and parents with their well behaved children. Those families you so despise are the future. Not you with your misinformed bigoted outmoded concepts. Pro-abortionists just don’t get it. They are the ones who are dieing off. In their selfishness they do not reproduce, and bump off any they might have. On the other hand people
who are selfless and loving, embrace life and work on the good of this and the next generation. This next generation, who will survive ‘your’ culture of death, will be judging you as the ones who wanted to destroy them. Remember that.

And what about people who are not right wing and not Roman Catholic who do not agree with abortion especially in the case of suicide, where anyone can make a case for being suicidal. What about muslims who are also against this? I think you are wrong to make the claim this is just one section of society opposed to abortion.

Brian, Muslims are all religious and their religion is called Islam. I never mentioned the type of religion so it is irrelevant unless you think Islam is secular (bet they would disagree). There are also religious people who support abortion. Every exception only proves the rule.

Sparxz1, a great example of hate speech. Too much venom and could potentially be dangerous for your health. People who want women to have choice respect every family in the country equally whether they want to have 15 children or none. That will be your own choice in life to make. In the end, the quality is what matters and not the quantity ;)

@Ciara ‘Every exception only proves the rule’. Is this some tongue-in-cheek satire or actually the basis of your retort to Brian?

“Representative democracy” cannot justify the killing of innocent people. If ninety-nine percent of the people voted to allow the murder of defenceless babies it wouldn’t make it any more justifiable.

It’s time to end this senseless, insidious, slaughter. It’s time to halt this holocaust of the unborn. These children are real people and they are being brutally robbed of their lives. They are dying because we are silent, because we are selfish, because we are sitting back and doing nothing. Let us truly use our lives – let us speak up for those who have no voice – let us defend the unborn and let them live.

“This is no longer a Roman Catholic dictatorship” If only! Don’t be fooled Lisa, the Roman Taliban are still in charge, they haven’t gone away you know! They still have friends in high places and the likes of Creighton and her ilk will still be on hand to do their bidding. Sadly a vast swathe of he Irish people are far too brow beaten by the Roman cult to have the balls to stand up these religious fundamentalists the emphasis being on ‘mentalists’

@Rab

It’s a nice straw man argument to assume I’m in favour of infanticide. I read it and thought “that Rab, I see what he did there. Very clever. I’m sure everyone thinks I’m a child munching monster now. Well played sir, well played.”

Actually I didn’t. What I actually thought was that it was an immature attempt to ‘win’ the argument by appealing to people’s emotions in an unmitigated act of crassness. It’s people like you who make reasoned debate impossible on a subject such as this.

@Kevin. You may complain of word-trickery or use if emotive language all you want. We’re not politicians here so forget about your thumbs up/down ratio for a minute and actually engage with my point:

You said before that a fetus can be aborted because it is not sentient life. This restricts you to one of two conclusions – either other non-sentient human life forms (pre-conscious children, those with severe brain-damage either congenitally or otherwise) may also be terminated OR you have some other additional criteria for abortion’s justification.

(You can, of course, retract your earlier remark, but that is the limit your logical options)

Well Lisa, if that is the case we also decided to ban the morning after pill, and IVF in 2002. Remember in that referendum the irish people were asked to limit the constitutional protection of the unborn, to the implanted embryo,. We refused. Do you not agree?

Men scream against abortion and strive to make sure women do not possess any choice. One U.S. senator recently said that God wanted a raped woman to deliver the rapist’s child—so she could not have an abortion. What an intellectual and religious troglodyte!
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2012/12/the-case-for-abortion-500000-lost-lives-annually/

fg are doing everything to tie it up in knots even though the people said twice in majority they wanted it..they are a incompetent government

This sums it up perfectly. Either we get laws that allow this OR we get a referendum to change the constitution. Can’t do anything in-between…

It is really sad to see that people can not hold an opinion on either side without being vigorously attacked by the other, no side is more mature progressive or moral than the other so GROW UP………

So sad and so true.

Killawalla is Killawalla.

How are laws made? They are legislated for.

If it’s the law, it must already have been legislated for.

Therefore your comment can be translated as:

It has been legislated for, not legislate for it.

Just a logical point.

*now

Not quite Rab, the Constitution is the highest law in the country, and the X case is constitutional law after it was “discovered” by the Supreme Court. However there is a difference between constitutional law and statutory law, and the current calls are for the legislature to translate the constitutional law into statutory law.

Thanks John, but I understand and accept that, and I’m assuming that Pierce does too – I just thought he phrased the sentiment in a nonsensical way.

It feels like a larger dismissal of mental health in general. A lot of medications used to control mental health issues (depression, anxiety) would be harmful to a foetus and so women would be unable to take them. If a woman is suicidal without medication, how would that pregnancy affect her? It’s ridiculous to suggest that there’s “real health” and then there’s “mental health.”

@Nick “A lot of medications used to control mental health issues (depression, anxiety) would be harmful to a foetus and so women would be unable to take them.”

Could you explain how directly and intentionally ending the life of the preborn infant would be preferable to unintentionally causing harm to him/her (i.e., any harm would be not the intended purpose, but a side-effect of taking the drugs)?

Exactly

There are over 7 billion humans on earth, for population control reasons alone it should be legalised. Human population control was governed by disease and lack of transportation, science and engineering advancements have solved most of those issues and we need another method of population control, fully legalised abortion is one.

10 billion people is the theoretical max that earth can support, however if the human population reaches that number we will have sent thousands of earths creatures, whom we SHARE the planet with, into extinction. Who wants to see that happen?.

I’m against population control as a reason for abortion. I can see slight population reduction (and resulting positive environmental impacts) as being a potential positive additional result of abortion but my fear is of forced abortion like the highly publicised case that occurred in China last year.

Basically I think the idea of population control implies that a woman is required to consider population levels when deciding whether or not to continue with a pregnancy. I think she should only consider what she alone thinks worth considering.

‘Population control’ is a UN myth. They have some fun stuff in the works for us soon. Just like climate change, go look up the data on it, before you swallow the crises-driven narratives around it.

Abortion doesn’t need population control as a rationale for it. In my opinion, it is up to the state to make its case for *not* allowing abortion, not the public why they should be allowed have it. It never has done that imo.

It should be a choice! Not a form of population control!

Widely available free contraception and reproductive education is a form of population control and is something that is resisted by the religious right. Abortion is a completely seperate issue. It is a personal choice that I beleive a woman has a right to based on her own understanding of her own personal circumstances and should be governed by her own morality and agency.

of course it should governments cannot tell people what they can and cannot do with their bodies this is no longer a state run by the catholic church an organisation that is totally out of touch with reality this is a democracy

@ Studentabroad92 – Firstly I would like to thank you for having the courage to share your story, although I don’t agree with abortion unless the mothers life is at risk. I felt very sad reading your story as I can also hear your pain. I am not responding to you to judge you, lecture you on the situation surrounding your pregnancy or the decision you made. I do hope you heal in time as it sounds like along with the abortion you still have issues dealing with it. Rachel’s VineYard (post abortion service) is a worldwide organisation based here in Ireland in case you ever need it, giving non judgemental counselling and I believe it’s free of charge. Take care, and once again thank you for your sharing and continued healing.

Marie Stopes have more humanity than the entire Catholic Church.

@Willian – you sound like you do 2!

Your a very brave person , and should not be ashamed of the very difficult decision you had to make ,off course the pro-lifers would would think otherwise ( their tune make change if they where put in an extremely difficult decision),

@Sean – Correction – Pro Lifers would NOT have anyone think otherwise!…the organisation I mentioned is run by women who have had abortions, not that you would know anything about that! Student abroad shared her story with courage, lets treat that with respect and refrain from the smutty remarks!…

And if she doesn’t feel regret, Rita, simply thinks the option should be legalised for women like her? Rachel’s Vineyard doesn’t seem to have a place for women who think they made the right decision…

@ Nick – Obviously, each determines that for themselves. Just putting it out there are organisations in Ireland for women who do!…and I know some of them who have received the help they need to heal and move on…

I can sympathize with your situation and the decision you had to make. The decision is made now and you will get on with the rest of your life. Hopefully lesson learned.

You say you hope someday to to proud of what you did, personally I don’t think that makes any sense. It is a terrible thing to have done, and a terrible situation to have out yourself in. Pride in those actions you should never have.

@ Studentabroad92. Thank you so much for sharing your story. You have NOTHING to be ashamed about and I am disgusted once again to hear of an Irish woman being shamed and exiled, alone and with no support, to our neighbor. Any woman can find herself facing an unplanned pregnancy and I’m glad you got the advice and options you needed to make the best decision for you, your life, and in the future, any possible family you may or may not wish to have.

Please ignore the disgusting comments made by others here. No doubt you are aware of the callous and heartless things that are said to women in your situation, and hence have had to tell your story anonymously. It is our shame as a nation that you had to go through this alone, abroad and without support, and only our further shame that you cannot openly discuss it. Please take heart in the fact that backward thinking people such as Sparxz1 are in the minority and that your decision is supported and respected by so many others here. Do not let the intolerance, lack of humanity and cruelty of others interfere with how you cope and deal with what you have gone through.

@Rita – to me it does not seem like she regrets her decision, only the manner, lack of support and shame she faced because our country does not recognise her right to control her reproductive processes. Therefore I don’t think Rachel’s Vineyard would necessarily be a supportive group for her.

Studentabroad Fair play to you for your courage to speak out about your ordeal i think its a disgrace women have to go through all that, and then to have bible bashers laying guilt on you. Its no body’s business but yours.
I wish you the best in your life, look forward to the good things in life and don’t mind the begrugers.

Kate Mooney. – Check your figures I was one of the 25-,000 to 30,000 in Merrion square. You are the sad minority, who believes your own lies and propaganda. You should get out more, and meet some folks. A group as small an in inbred and dysfunctional as the SWP must get boring at some stage.

@Kate – thanks for your opinion on Rachel’s Vineyard. In reading studentsabroads story, I am not claiming to be in a position to say what she needs or doesn’t need. I don’t think any of us are! I merely gave her that information, as, like I said above, I know women who have used this service and benefited greatly from it. You never know, as she is still so young, she may need it somewhere down the line.

Fool

Your right all the way

Student abroad what a touching piece. If there had not been the stigma and there had been the facility in Ireland at least you might have been able to discuss it with your family. I am glad you have come to the conclusion about your decision . Please do not feel regret for making the decision of waiting to have yourself in the right place and right state of mind before you decide to have a family. If everybody acted in such a responsible manner we would have very little child abuse.

@Sparxz1 – and I was one of the 200 who came out to show that there are people in this country who are disgusted by your attempt to control the reproductive choices of the women of this country. I am not involved with, or a member of, any political organisation – and I would thank you not to make assumptions (you will notice I did not assume you were a member of a religious group when referring to your beliefs).

I will not hijack StudentAbroad92′s brave post by getting into the wider issue of whether abortion is right or wrong here – I will not change your mind and you will never change mine. I do find it abhorrent that you have the audacity to call a young woman a murderer in a public forum, and so flippantly and cruelly – but perhaps this merely exemplifies the arrogance many anti-choice people who believe they know what is best for every woman in every situation ever.

@Rita – fair enough, I hadn’t seen your earlier reply along the same lines. It’s nice to see some people can still show compassion and humanity to someone, even if they disagree with their choices.

@ William – Yeah William, Marie Stopes are full of humanity!…so much so, they even offer ‘free abortions’ to staff as a job perk!

Kate Mooney – Will you be there for StudentAbroad92 if she develops Suicidality as so many women do.
A friend of mine “Angie’(her real name) who suffered abortion were completely abandoned by so-called women’s groups, because they were an embarrassment to liberal-feminism. It suits so-called women’s groups for these women to suffer in silence, or quietly commit suicide.
The first time I ever heard the words “I am a murderer” was from an English friend of mine who was a that stage in her Forties. She was rapped when 19 while on holidays in France. I was recommended she have an abortion,
by so-called experts. She had the abortion, but they perforated her uterus,and rendered her unable to conceive
in the future. After I walked in an found her the the process of committing suicide by hanging(unusual for women), she used the words “I am a murder”. She said “I got over the rape, but not the abortion”. She grew up and lived in a secular non religious tolerant society and this is how she ended up. Woman’s aid, and all her Women friends dropped her like a stone, because of her suffering. I kept with her as a friend.
Angie’s dealing with her own part of wrong doing in the death of her Baby was a milestone in her noticeable recovery.
People like you Kate are not there for the Angie’s who don’t make it. No, you just fill up the misery, and fill up the body bags. You should meet women who have gone from abortion to trying to protect women from same.They are the most humble, modest, brave inspiring women I know. They know suffering beyond most, their lives revolve around protecting the life and innocence of both Women and their Babies from utterly selfish hard-harted people like you.

@ Sparxz1 – Here, Here Sparxz1. I have met those beautiful women and heard them speak from their own experience of abortion. All of them have suffered in silence (their words, not mine) and have found welcome and understanding with open arms in places like Rachel’s Vineyard. I have heard many of them say it Saved their lives! Thank you for being there and sticking with your friend. Who knows where she would be today if you hadn’t.

If anybody interferes in your business , please tell them to f**k off ..

Respect

At least 150,000 irish women have traveled to the UK to have abortions.
http://www.ifpa.ie/Hot-Topics/Abortion/Statistics

150,000 women who gave an irish address when filling out the forms, and that excludes women who gave a friends UK address or who traveled to Holland or other EU countries or those who have taken the abortion pill.

150,000 Irish women that is 5 times more then those who reportedly attended the #vigil4life.

150,000 Irish women that is 5 times more then those who reportedly attended the #vigil4life.

Says it all.

I think you have made a unintended ‘fraudulent’ slip.There were only 150 maximum pro-abortionists there in the counter demo on Saturday. The discredited iFPA (part of the billionaire genocidalist Bill Gates funded Planned Parenthood) have been caught putting women’s health in serious jeopardy by the advice they were giving women, tell them not to tell their GPs they had abortions. So why would anybody trust ‘their’ unverifiable industry figures, in their effort to increase their business base.

Please post round here more sparkz, you are the best example of why the rabid anti-choice brigade should be ignored.

werejammin – What happened to free speech ? Any way you did not ignore me( and vice-versa). Hope you see the irony !

“werejammin – What happened to free speech ?”

Nothing, thats why I’m encouraging to post as many rants here as you can. You’re doing a swell job, just not the one you’re intending.

Oh, and don’t forget to use more terms like ‘genocidalist’, especially when referring to Bill Gates, whose probably the least threatening man on the planet. That will REALLY make people listen to you…..

Not trying to be a smart arse but when they go to the UK won’t they just say they have mental issues and get the abortion. So it’s not that non-sensical.

James, the right to an abortion if there is a risk of suicide was decided upon in a judgement from our supreme court. That was twenty years ago and as far as I’m aware there has been no rush of women looking for abortions on the basis of suicide in this country. The UK’s abortion laws are much more liberal than anything this government proposes to legislate for so I’m not sure you can make that comparison.

The problem is that there is no medical consensus on how to ‘prove’ that someone is suicidal.

Early yet, the No voters are probably retired and brainwashed by the Church?

I would not be surprised if there is a media watch team in 60s Capel st jumping on polls to try and give a skewed idea.

Their american financing should be able to pay for a few internet gurus to spread the word of hate anyway

The no vote is here but I don’t go to church and i think your brain needs washing. But unfortunately it’s in the Lisbon treaty the one we voted no too
We need out of this eu and the faster the better they make all our laws now 90% of them,it’s sickin that we fought to keep the English from ruling us and then they sign it all away for some magic beans shame on you Edna ya wanabe German

It’s a stupid poll.
There is a legal requirement to do so because of the X case. So not legislating for “risk of suicide” means that you would not be legislating for the X case.
It’s like the liar’s paradox: “This statement is false.”

It’s nothing like the Liar’s Paradox – the X case set legal precedent, it has not been legislated for, and more to the point the people have never been asked whether it should be legislated for, hence this poll.

The pro-Israeli pack give their miserable supporters the heads up when there’s a thread here so they can flood it. Wouldn’t be surprised if YD and the like do the same, they’re from the same political swamp.

Khaosan, you have brought the Israel/Palestinian conflict into a debate about abortion in Ireland. So as you have can I point out that Israel, a modern parliamentary democracy, allows a women to have an abortion in most cases, even pays for the operation if there is a fatal defect in the foetus. In the terrorist run area of Palestine abortion in all cases is illegal and the Islamists often force raped women to marry. Of course this hardly comes as a surprise; the Muslim run parts of the world treat women with utter contempt.

Would be interesting if the the journal posted where the votes in this poll are coming from

Progressive is not necessarily a word I would use. There are some who are willing to debate rationally & logically, but also plenty of abuse, name calling, & ridicule. In fact much of it, just a big baying lynch mob.
I read a previous article the Jornnal today on Lucinda Creighton, & was disgusted by many the abusive comments being made towards her.
So much for freedom of speech,- eh guys?
Oh and don’t just assume that because that because I have pro life views, that I am therefore ”brainwashed by the church”. I am a young woman who is pro life, and I have made up my mind on this & formed my own opinions, regardless of the churchs views.

@Zoe Well expressed.

Zoe, what a coincidence, you have made up your mind and come to the same conclusion as your Church, ………that brainwashed you as a defenceless child.

If you are not brainwashed into believing obvious nonsense (soul, hell, heaven, eternal life, angels, devils etc), how come you’re not a Muslim or a Hindu?

Surely the point is she shouldn’t have to threaten suicide to get an abortion. If she is a victim of rape or incest she should be able to have an abortion if she wants to. All this talk of suicide can’t be good in the current circumstances where so many young people are taking their own lives.

Why are Fine Gael dragging this out?! It seems to me to be a shameless act to appease the older church going voters. They (churchers and youth defence) clearly hold Fine Gael accountable as posters and advertisements point directly at Fine Gael and their promise not to allow abortion under any circumstance. If Enda kicks the can for a few more months, the ball will fall in someone else court.

Why should the child have to pay for the crime of the father?? crazy, think about it.. and What is this obsession with the church and youth defence,

There is no child. There is a foetus. That only exists because a woman/girl was raped

A foetus is a child .

Definition of CHILD from Merriam -Webster dictionary
1
a : an unborn or recently born person

http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/child

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_is_the_author_of_merriam-webster’s_dictionary

Unfortunately Robert, I don’t put any trust in Merriam Webster, it is generally thought to be a wholly unreliable source. Good effort though, 7/10.

Dee, Your Oxford definition didn’t state birth as a prerequisite to being a child. Absence of evidence is not evidence. ‘Baby’ is not a scientific term, it does not have a scientific meaning. I don’t see any evidence of Merriam-Webster unreliability. You will find the term baby including foetuses in other dictionaries too. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/child

What has being white got to do with it? There are plenty of crazy ‘pro life’ women out there too.

You are blown apart by a scud missile in Palastine, but you are entitled to your opinion on whether to support Israel or not.

My point is that you don’t need affected by an issue to have a valid standpoint.

And I think you overestimated the size of that demographic here.

*You are unlikely to be blown apart

I think there’s a difference between allowing men have their views (how do hope to censor someone’s very thoughts?), and taking issue with them dominating the issue in how it plays out… Which arguably they do, as most TDs are men, and they all vote as they are told to be vested interests (not too much of a stretch to assume they are nearly all men too). That said, I share the outrage of women who have to encounter a man frothing with pro life arguments around something he’ll never have to live through.

Ellis Bell – Very out-dated comment by you. Eg Should parents be deciding what’s best for their dependent children, considering the said parents are not children and will never be children themselves. What about adults who are making decisions for dependent disabled siblings or dependent elderly relatives, again considering they are not old,or may never reach old age. A lot of doctors treat people of the opposite sex. Should this practice stop,as who could another human being have best consideration for another in your dark minded world.
Your argument is not logical, reasonable or mature.do you parents know you are on the internet unsupervised,
and not in the Wendy house(likely dismembering baby dolls with sharp scissors).

Agree completely

Hardly a non-issue with a split poll and with any Journal articles on the issue regularly posting very high view and comments tallies.

The deliberately misleading way in which you refer to pro-choice people as “pro-abortion” completely destroys what could have been a halfway decent point. My sister is pro-choice but anti-abortion (except to save the woman’s life). And there are valid ethical questions on the topic but they are for the woman to decide. Not you. It’s her decision, not yours.

If you continue to say pro abortion as opposed to pro choice it’s hard to take anything you say seriously. We’re not trying to get women to have abortions, I’ve never heard of any group that encourages abortion. I don’t actually want women to actively seek abortions at every opportunity. Just not to be marginalized bey their own country and have to travel to another country for abortions.

Whoa! How can you be pro choice but anti abortion? Or am I missing something?

Basically she thinks it’s not an option anyone should take. She was formerly all for the complete ban of abortion as we have now (excepting ectopic pregnancy and other life threatening conditions) but when she had her first child she decided that while she is absolutely against it herself, she doesn’t think she has the right to force anyone else to act as she would. My mum is the same.

ok cool. Sounds reasonable.

James, the fact is that the vast majority of anti-choice, pro-jailing women and their doctors ARE Catholics. The only organisations that campaign against a women’s right to choose ARE religious organisations. The same morons who opposed divorce, contraception, amniocentesis tests, covered up priestly child rape, locked up pregnant girls in homes where they were treated as slaves, burned Scientists at the stake for stating that the Earth went around the Sun etc. Claiming otherwise is living in denial.

Abortion is a procedure to snuff a baby apart & cures nothing otherwise Britain wouldn’t have double the maternal death rate of Ireland. To favour abortion being legislated for is pro-abortion.

so true, but they like to distract from the argument by throwing in the church and all the scandal because they know that abortion is morally wrong..

Bridget, where do you get your morals from then?

Just to interject, Ireland’s maternal mortality rate is not accurate as it fails to take into account mothers that due outside of a clinical setting, women that die from other issues, such as cardiac arrest, women whose death is simply recorded as being inconclusive due to lack if communication between coroner/registration office.
Ireland’s true MMR is estimated (conservatively) as being twice as high as reported, and that’s without actually checking and cross matching figures.
So Ireland is not as safe as reported, in fact it is as safe as Britain is, on par.

For those taking exception for me not indulging the the silly word games, I use pro and anti abortion because they aren’t loaded terms looking to paint the opposing side as something bad. Pro Choice is a term designed to make the opposing side sound like people who are against ‘choice’. Pro-life is designed to make the opposition sound like they are anti life. Pro and Anti abortion is more honest terminology, which simply aims to state that someone is either For or Against abortion being legal. I wish some of you would give up on this nonsense pejorative war and start behaving like reasonable grown ups!

William Grogan – Would love to see you figures for the jailing you delight in telling us about. Please post back here so we can look it it for substance if any.

Spar, what’s this supposed to mean, “Would love to see you figures for the jailing you delight in telling us about”?

There is no valid reason to be anti-abortion, though. The feelings of protective love that women and their families get towards the foetuses of wanted pregnancies are admirable and worthy, having those same feelings towards the foetus of a woman’s unwanted pregnancy is just completley perverse. It is her body that is a) the reason the zygote/embryo/fetus is their in the first place and b) sustaining it’s further growth and development, it should be self-evident that the woman gets to decide whether that continues happening or not.

You cannot value pre-viable zygotes/embryos or foetuses without completley de-valuing women.

Also the term is pro-choice. People who support legal abortion want it to be an option for women, we don’t want it as a blanket solution for all pregnant women as anti-abortionists want women continuing on with their pregnancies to be.

Clare, I find it hard to believe that anyone, be they for or against, would not see that there is at least ethical questions to be asked in relation to abortion.

Also, I know the terms people apply to themselves, I just don’t subscribe to them. I see them as political weasel terms. I’d rather just see it as being for or against abortion being legal.

James, is it your “ethics” we are talking about or the woman’s ethics? Why do you think you have any rights over the ethics related to a pregnant woman? Is it because you do what your Church tells you? Is it their ethics? If you decide tomorrow, that it’s your ethics that I must go to Mass every Sunday, do I have to go? Muslims tend to think like that even today. Your Church’s ethics are of no relevance WHATSOEVER to someone else. Of course if the Catholics of Ireland you prove any of the superstitious nonsense they believe in, I’m all ears.

Like I said in my opening post, “I find it a bit odd, that those for who are pro-abortion believe those against it, are either brainwashed catholics or old anti-progress morons.” You should take note of your ignorant assumption. I belong to no church. Don’t let that get in the way of a bitter anti-religion rant though. Its people like you that turn this rather serious topic into juvenile folly!

James, if you are not religious or have not been unduly influenced by religious indoctrination why do you think you have the right to jail a raped women and her doctor for terminating her unwanted pregnancy?

What are you on about William?

James, what bit of this do you not understand, “..why do you think you have the right to jail a raped women and her doctor for terminating her unwanted pregnancy?”?

The bit where its relevant to anything I’ve said *confused*

James, if you can’t explain why you have the right to jail a raped women and her doctor for terminating her unwanted pregnancy, then don’t demand that right.

Sorry William, I’ve no idea what you’re on about, or who you’re talking to. *confused*

James, lets take it back a bit. You said “I find it hard to believe that anyone, be they for or against, would not see that there is at least ethical questions to be asked in relation to abortion.”

Presumably this means that you think that the pregnant woman have to answer to others “ethics” or that their “ethics” might cause her to be jailed.

The only discussion relevant here is whether to continue to jail women and their doctors who have abortions because their health is in danger. You say there are ethics involved. I asked you James, is it your “ethics” we are talking about or the woman’s ethics? Why do you think you have any rights over the ethics related to a pregnant woman? Is it because you do what your Church tells you? Is it their ethics?

You want to ask me what I think should be done to women who procure abortions illegally? Is that what you’re asking? If so, then thats a different discussion to the ethical questions surrounding the actual act of killing developing humans. What to do if someone breaks certain laws is a different ethical question. Is that what you would like to discuss?

James, your position from the top of this sub thread is that both sides use weasel words and you are opposed to that. So what’s this then from your last post, “the act of killing developing humans”? I would say a far more accurate and less loaded description of abortion is to prevent the development of a human being because the mother doesn’t want it to develop because she didn’t want to become pregnant in the first place maybe because of rape.

Your claim in a very roundabout way that you and others have ethics that are not related to religion and that those ethics of yours might stop a women having an abortion by threatening jail for her and her doctor, not because of her ethics, but because of you and your friends ethics, the vast majority of whom are most definitely religious, i.e. their view of reality is such that they think gods control mankind.

I asked from where you draw your ethics, if not from religious teachings, ethics so righteous that you can demand laws that jail pregnant and maybe raped women and their doctors for deciding not to carry a pregnancy to term.

I don’t believe a word you are saying btw. I do think that the overwhelming force against a women’s right to choose is based on religion. You and some others are trying to deny this. If I’m wrong tell me what logical or evidence based reason have you to force a women to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term?

Sorry William, but you are much too disingenuous. Firstly, you assumed that the catholic church had brainwashed me, to the extent that you went on a rant about catholics as if it is relevant to me. Now you are calming that down, to terms of general religion and what informs me etc. That is a HUGE difference, one I’m sure you realise but are probably embarassed by your initial rants and also realised your rashness backed you into a corner.
Secondly, what exactly is wrong with the terminology I used? There is nothing either pejorative or inaccurate in it is there? Its not ambiguous, its concise and descriptive. I didn’t say things like murder etc did I?

As for ethics, as I said, when we are talking about the life of a new human, I find it bizarre that anyone would believe that there are no ethical questions to be asked. By all means, put no value on the developing human until a certain point in their development, but to believe that there is no ethical question to be asked in relation to killing/terminating/aborting (take your pick) a developing human is, IMO, is unreasonable and bizarre.

You’re a bit of a waffler James aren’t you? The discussion is about whether or not to jail women and their doctors if they terminate a pregnancy, say in the case of rape or possible suicide. Your implication is that there are ethical questions, not associated with your religious upbringing, what are they? Where do they stem from? Do they imply that your ethics can be grounds for jailing a woman and her doctor? Simple questions. Can you not answer them? If you can’t then it’s you who are being disingenuous.

The discussion is about ‘jailing people involved in abortion’ is it? Certainly nothing to do with what I’ve discussed, nor the article that all these comments are on. It seems to be where you want to railroad things William. You just keep talking about it as if its relevant to anything I’ve posted. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you think you are posting on a different comment, because the issue of the ethics of what should be done with people who break the law in terms of procuring and carrying out abortion, is not the same as what is being discussed here.

It’s not flawed. Your flawed

Yes because of the constitution & the supreme court, but not because of this reason…

You do realise you have that completely backwards? Just look at the poll results which are always one sided on the journal.

Would that be a pro-life position dave?

Hardly – it would be more a solution for punishing the bad guys.
If we are going to murder something, I would prefer it to be the offender/rapist etc.

Sexual violence removes a survivor’s control over her own body – an abuser is basically telling a survivor that he has more right to her body than she does. And you want to reinforce that message by telling a survivor that you have more right to determine what she does with her body than she does?

Not being born is not a “punishment.” Being continually denied agency of your body? That is.

Yet another pro-lifer discussing abortion while managing not to mention the woman concerned.

It’s kind of funny/ironic that the conservative outlook (generally) would be pro-capital punishment and anti-abortion, and the liberal outlook (again generally) would be anti-death penalty but pro-abortion.

Funny, isn’t it?

Well said Dave

Abortion is not murder because an embryo or a zygote is not a baby. Biology textbooks can be bought in most bookshops.

Not to mention that an abortion is not legally murder. It’s procuring an abortion, a separate offence.

Thanks John, you’ll find most books can be bought in bookshops.

Thanks Eddie, I just wanted to see how many pro abortionists were against murder

What’s a pro abortionist? I can imagine their placards, “we demand abortions on every second pregnancy!”

Great retort Dave. Anything useful to add?

@John Everyman: A zygote or an embryo doesn’t have a pair of arms, legs, a head and a pulse. An aborted child in all cases after 12 weeks pregnancy, did. Biology textbooks can be bought in most bookshops.

http://www.baby2see.com/development/week12.html

@Ghost
The vast majority of abortions are carried out before week 10. At that stage the nervous sytem cannot feel pain and is incapable of cognitive thought. These facts were establsihed by an extensive Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists report on neonatal perception released in 2010. This report is freely available online.

Just because a fetus may have limbs at week 12 does not mean it is a baby.

Better the guilty suffer than the innocent be pulled apart.

Get a hold of yourself Marion. So does the women suffering with an unwanted pregnancy count as ‘the guilty’?

Absolutely marion, has anyone actually seen an abortion or looked at pictures of an aborted baby, not all are done early, have you seen the results of the abortion, torn apart and have to be put back together like a jigsaw puzzel to make sure all the parts are out, have you heard of the stories of the babies who survive abortion and are left to die, some live for several hours, its utter madness … Or the regret that some the women have after, like that poor girl above… I can honestly say i cannot understand how anyone can say that an abortion is the answer…

@ Bridget Mrs

You’re really just the online version of those youth defense lowlifes that shove photos of aborted foetuses into peoples faces, aren’t you?

Do you think your escaped mental patient language actually helps your cause?

I’ve seen the results of a medical abortion and it REALLY doesn’t look like a jigsaw. It looks like a period.

Well said, Nick. YD and the like try to shock people by showing photos of late term miscarraiges and scream “doctors did it!”

name calling how very mature

Funny how someone supporting abortion is criticising a woman on the basis of her supposed marital status. Pro choice is anything but pro women.

Actually, studies don’t show that abortion is a cause of suicide – they show that women with mental health conditions are more likely to seek abortions (as a suicidal woman would most likely have doubts about her ability to parent.) While we as a society should do more to support women with mental health conditions, pregnancy does indeed limit how a woman can be treated for depression.

Treatment for bad mental health can potentially seriously harm a pregnancy.

Do you want to point us to those studies?

These are not facts. This is totally untrue. Wide ranging studies across the US and the UK show that there is no significant (are you familiar with statistical significance as a concept?) difference in mental health issues between women who have had a termination and those who have not. They did find, however, that there was a significant increase in the incidence of mental health problems and suicide amongst women who were forced to proceed with an unwanted pregnancy. There was one study which was published which showed what you claim and the journal in question printed a retraction because the sample of women used were skewed and included people who were already suicidal before they became pregnant. If you intend to quote academic research Ed, make a full search of the literature and don’t just rely on right wing fundamentalists for your information. Otherwise you could end up believing that victims of rape have special rapist sperm zapping hormones too. The religious right make these things up. They are not interested in science. They are interested in control and magical beliefs.

I’m happy to point you to the numerous studies of how many anti-depressants (including SSRIs) can increase risks of pregnancy complications if taken during pregnancies?

Hi Ed,

Just two points; Firstly, while a few studies show that, others may not in future. Medical research and studies are constantly advancing so perhaps we shouldn’t legislate against something that is so inherently subjective and open to change.

Secondly, if there is no change in studies, medical practitioners-highly qualified ones in this case-ought to be relied upon to accept and apply best practice. If it is deem that abortion will have a medically negative impact then one won’t be recommended.

Showing that women SEEK abortions because they are suicidal, only proves that that is a requirement for abortions.. especially in the U.K., because those were the conditions under which the so-called limited abortion were introduced in 1967… in 2012 in the UK, there were close to 200,000 abortions… (that’s 25% of the overall pregnancies).

Because they have to sign a form to say why they are having an abortion, 90% gave mental health as a reason… but that is not the same as saying that abortion actually in any way cures mental health problems. The psychiatrists, were quite clear on this in the past weeks…

Let’s be scientific about things people please

But you’re reference American, New Zealand and Finnish studies – not sure why UK law would impact them? Are you claiming American women only seek abortions if they’re valid under UK law? Tell you what, just to be sure, how about you provide us with citations?

@Ed Kellett, your tone is quite condescending, e.g. “Now for some facts…” “Let’s be scientific about things people please”. Incidentally, a tiny grammatical error has rendered this particular sentence a plea to be scientific about the things people please. Now, I’m no expert in pleasuring inanimate objects, but you’ve piqued my interest. Please, do go on. *Rests chin on hand*

I do love a good comma.

Show me the place where someone said it could.

Said wat!? It could fix it!? I don’t know I’m just saying that suicide should not be used as a reason, I do agree that some people are totally not ready for a child and it would ruin their life..but I also think that anybody can say that they are suicidal and it may become an overused excuse…some people are suicidal and that should be dealt with accordingly…suicide is such a deep topic, it needs to be dealt with through people’s attitude towards it rather than abort and hope the problem goes away…

Again, nobody said that was how it would be dealt with. Both your comments imply that’s the idea in the minds of people who support legislating for the x case.

Depression is often hormonally based (or are you someone who doesn’t believe in post partum depression). Pregnancy VERY MUCH affects hormones. Obviously abortion doesn’t “cure” suicide, but there will be circumstances where a pregnancy might have serious repercussions health-wise.

@Nick,
I totally understand that. I’m just saying that if a person is suicidal and pregnant it does not mean that abortion will help this, the person may be suicidal before pregnancy even occurred. Agreeably, sometimes it might help, however, other steps need to be taken to help the person first. That is all that I am saying. I’m not saying that anybody who wants an abortion is going to say on im suicidal so give me an abortion, I’m just saying that it could happen and in order to reduce that risk and spend valuable time with people who are genuinely suicidal, and if you think that there are people who wouldn’t do that, I disagree. Obviously not the majority, but like any case there would be those who try to use it as an in genuine excuse.

And you don’t believe psychiatrists are qualified to help women and decide what’s the best course of action for them?

Agree with Clodagh Nic L – If the pro-abortion argument were true that abortion is a cure for Suicidality,
then As quoted in Irish Times:
“Men in Ireland are four times for more likely to die from suicide than women, and account from three times as many road fatalities as females.
According to the Central Statistics Office’s latest Women and Men in Ireland study, a total of 386 men took their own lives in 2010 compared to 100 women”. – Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0131/breaking33.html
Would that give credence to a bizarre assertion that less men would have committed suicide if it were possible for them to be pregnant, and have an abortion as a cure/treatment !
Abortion as a cure for depression and sucidality is the greatest quackery, that was ever dreamed(nightmared) up.
What is needed is proper psychiatric care and sectioning if necessary. Not snake oil and tribal black magic witch doctors.

Marion a suicidal woman after an abortion is a less complicated situation than a pregnant woman with suicidal issues. I myself have experience with 2 friends of mine that had abortions in the UK & both are now successful mothers & women. I also have personal experience of suicide & the way its been handle in this debate is disgraceful & shows how little as a nation we understand it. Im glad your getting your twopence worth out of trivialising suicide. How dare you.

Aodh P O’Beachain, must be unaware that the description of a “foetus(from the Greek) is in the context here as of human.
If we were in a University teaching hospital and talking about the cranium, it would be in a human context and not
an veterinary medicine context. If you study Greek Philosophy you will discover that the morals of murder were discussed and even made into famous plays. The Greeks a non-Catholics/Pre-Christians, who developed thinking believed in natural law and natural justice, eventually arrived at conclusions that murder of innocent human beings was unjust, and bad for society, and they sought to bring in democracy as an alternative to brutality,
barbarism and civil war.
The conquering Romans further developed same ideas into what was later called ‘common law’. When The Roman Catholic Church was setup 2,000 years ago they took the best ideas from the Greeks and developed from then on [Read St. Augustine (354-430)].
But sir what you are proposing is stone-age butcher barbarianism which would still shock Jewish historian Josephus, writing the account of the Siege of Jerusalem, AD 70 by the Romans.
Where the battle hardened roman soldiers were sickened to the stomach, entering Jerusalem to find pots of boiling babies, bubbling away.
Likely one of your ancestors was busy stirring at the pot, as you are metaphorically doing so now.

You clearly have a limited understanding of mental health issues. If a woman is so desperate that she is willing to try suicide (which indeed might kill her), she needs professional medical treatment and, if decided by two consultant level doctors, an abortion. Psychiatrists deal with serious mental health problems every day. Let’s trust them to do their jobs.

Nick, I have a First Class Hons Diploma in Criminal Psychology from UCC so I think it’s fair to say that I know a hell of a lot more about mental health issues. Read my comment again and you will see that non-suicidal people may feel that they need to make an attempt at suicide so as to get an abortion. To make suicidal risk a precondition is very dangerous.

Oh, well, if you have a degree in criminal psychology, that says everything! Of course, I’ve actually been a pregnant woman with mental health issues, so what would I know? Not only do you want to ignore the results of two referendum, but you’re implying that non suicidal women can’t be trusted to make good decisions. As a woman with mental health issues, that’s pretty insulting.

Suicidality or the claim of being suicidal is not an issue, psychiatrists and psychologists can evaluate patients for suicidality through simple screening.
It’s the ability to act on suicidality that I would have more worry with, but of course, if you legislate for suicidality then ability to act isn’t an issue so much.

Nick personally I couldn’t care less whether abortion is brought in or not. Clearly you don’t seem to want to see my point. First, you say that people who are trained in the areas of mental health should be trusted, then you change your mind and decide that only people who have been in that situation should be heard. Secondly you decide that I implied “that non suicidal women can’t be trusted to make good decisions.” I never said that and I am not going to repeat my point for a third time but I will put it in a question for you to make it easier.

If the only way to get an abortion in Ireland is by attempting suicide then what are you going to do even though you DON’T feel suicidal?

You’re going to travel, actually. As 150,000 Irish women have. And if a woman is willing to risk a suicide attempt, then she is indeed suicidal and should be treated by professionals (who I do trust to do their jobs.)

No because, and it may have been mentioned in one or two comments here already, we have twice voted to uphold the x case ruling. They MUST legislate for it.

You mean like the two referendum we had on it? It’s the most examined judgement in Irish history. And while it’s been agreed by doctors that it would be rare to recommend an abortion, they also noted that they would rarely recommend it. So what’s the problem with legislating, exactly?

It is just my opinion that we should tread carefully and not rush legislation through under perceived pressure from Europe or other. If the ruling was flawed, which without medical evidence maybe it was, should we not look at it again before putting something into law.
Those who advocate for abortion have said that those with previous history of suicide ideation or other signs of mental illness are more likely to experience post abortion trauma. So I would be slow to legislate for the extraordinary circumstances when the treatment to be prescribed can in fact cause more damage after the fact.

I don’t think waiting 20 years and having two referendum is rushing abortion through. And while you imply there’s no problem in waiting, the cases of C from ABC, Sheila Hodgers and Michelle Harte would say otherwise.

And who has said women with mental illness have more of a chance of suicide post-abortion? Academic citation, please.

All American influence on this matter should be ignored!

The latest research has been a review of all the studies on abortion risks related to mental health and it demonstrates substantially increase risks of:

81% overall increased risk of a mental health problem
37% increased risk of depression
34% increased risk of anxiety disorders
110% increased risk of alcohol abuse
155% increased risk of suicidal tendency
For between 10-20% of women, the psychological impact of abortion is highly traumatic and affects their ability to function as they used to.

Coleman, P. (2011) Abortion and mental health: quantitative synthesis and analysis of research published 1995-2009. The British Journal of Psychiatry 199, 180-186

There’s one I found by just googling.

Here is also another study by a pro choice doctor, who was surprised by his own findings. http://www.uca.edu.ar/uca/common/grupo54/files/new_zealand_abortion_study.pdf

Also it should be noted that in relation to the A,B & C case, A & B were thrown out and in relation to C, they ruled against Ireland stating that it was in violation of her Human rights not because she couldn’t have an abortion in Ireland but because it was uncertain and unclear whether she could have access to abortion in a situation where she believed that her pregnancy was life threatening.

Denise you missed one important statistic in your list there, which is that less than 10% of the mental health problems were found to be attributable to abortion.

It’s very sad that that happens, but I guess that is the nature of making difficult decisions for yourself.

Can someone confirm for the prolife lobby that medical evidence is not usually heard in the Supreme Court please, hence rendering their argument RE no medical evidence heard invalid?

The Coleman article which was discredited by the editors? It’s odd also that you cite Fergusson, who EXPLICITLY states that his article doesn’t support the pro life conclusion of abortion causing mental health difficulties. Why are you using this study in a way the author cautioned against, Denise? Doesn’t that seem a bit dishonest to you?

pwned

I believe what was stated of it was “Specifically, the results do not support strong pro-life positions that claim that abortion has large and devastating effects on the mental health of women. Neither do the results support any strong pro-choice positions that imply that abortion is without any mental health effects.”
They acknowledged that they say results contrary to the pro choice position and enough negative that he recommends further studies etc etc.
Why are you only have quoting, Nick? Doesn’t that seem a bit dishonest to you?

*quoting half

Using that study to back up any position or make any recommendation other than “more research and support services” is dishonest. But you’re the one basing your claim on it – which is a little dishonest.

Nick, you asked me to back up my claim that women who had suicide ideation or a history of mental illness had an increased chance of mental illness post abortion. That is what I used that study for. I believe that was his own findings not sure how I’m being dishonest. Or am I not allowed to use facts to support a statement that I made?

You are supporting the idea that abortion harms mental health with a study where the author specifically claims “the results do not support strong pro-life positions that claim that abortion has large and devastating effects on the mental health of women. ”

The fact that you cannot find one respected study which claims abortion harms mental health (rather than one that says it possibly might, more research is needed) speaks volumes. Unless you can prove that abortion definitely harms mental health, it’s just wishful thinking on your part.

There is no evidence to back this because all research shows that there are no long-term differences between the mental health of women who obtained abortion and who did not after a year. The womb is not physically connected to the brain so that it could cause a mental health problem, although hormones from pregnancy do have an effect on the whole system. Contrary to this, society’s attitudes, such as bullying women, shaming them, and constantly threatening, do have an adverse effect on the mental health have of women. When there is no such attitude in society, women do not feel depressed as a result of their choices. So when you “love them both,” you gotta also add “only if they sacrifice their lives for our beliefs.”

But they won’t just have to say that the will kill themselves Eddie, will they. I am sure that the legislation will include strict criteria and professional assessments so please stop making stuff up.

I don’t think it’ll be as straightforward as saying they’ll kill themselves. Doctors (trained professionals) will need to be involved, the law can allow for very strict circumstances to be applied before the risk of suicide is confirmed. Plus they constitution & supreme court have made a decision, so unless we have a referendum to change that, it HAS to be done.

Women throughout history have always sought to terminate pregnancies for various reasons and the RCC with its masogynistic ethos and uncivilised dogmas will not be able to stop that for all its ranting and posturing. This talk of suicide clauses is nonsense. Abortion should be legalised full stop. I notice, with regards to education, that many anti-abortion campaigners are also vocal against women breast feeding in public & are prudish about how sex education should be handled. Face facts! Women terminate pregnancies & should be able to do so in a safe non-hostile environment. Bunch of savages trying to force their bitter morals on us all!

And there goes the thread, Eddie suggesting someone would have been aborted. Reported comment btw.

I mightn’t be here either Paul or you for that mater.. there going to wipe out bloodlines open your eyes

Who is “they”? And seen as my mother was not suicidal when she was pregnant with me, she couldn’t have had an abortion even if she wanted one. So what’s the issue?

Eddie, you are an offensive tosser. Now do one.

Doogle I’m an offensive tosser and you want babies dead wake up
Paul whos they you ask.. Who do you thing they are?? I will help you on this THEY will wipe out bloodlines thats who they are

Silly person. Who is it that is “killing babies” exactly? Are you referring to the 150,000 women who have travelled to the UK since 1980?

150,000 to many the yes side are killing life I wouldnt do it to a dog

Ok, try that one more time but this time make sense. Try throwing a little punctuation in there. Grammar can be fun! People know what you’re trying to say when you use it well!

:-)

@Paul What did you report Eddie for? That you didn’t agree with him?

Of course Pro-Choicers are liberal, progressive and most importantly, always right.

I reported him because he left a comment suggesting that Reg’s mother should have aborted him if it was legal when he was born. The comment has now (thankfully) been deleted.