TheJournal.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more »
Dublin: 12 °C Sunday 26 May, 2013

Column: Twenty years after the X case, it’s time for action on abortion

The Government needs to face up to the facts – and we can’t let the pro-life lobby stifle the debate, writes Alison Spillane.

Alison Spillane

Today marks 20 years to the day since a 14-year-old rape victim attempted to travel to England for a termination of the pregnancy. The Attorney General obtained an injunction preventing her from leaving the country – but the Supreme Court later overturned this.

The Government has not yet introduced legislation to reflect the Supreme Court’s ruling. Here Alison Spillane argues that the time for action is long overdue.

TWENTY YEARS ON from the landmark Supreme Court ruling in the X case, it is both astonishing and disheartening that so little progress has been made.

Over the past two decades, successive governments have failed to legislate for the Supreme Court judgment which established the right of women to access abortion when their lives are at risk, including the risk of suicide. In so doing, they have withheld a constitutional right from women in Ireland.

In the interim, we have seen a working group, a Cabinet committee, an Oireachtas committee and two referenda (1992 and 2002) in which the Irish people reaffirmed the Supreme Court ruling by refusing to remove suicide as legitimate grounds for abortion. More recently, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) ruled in ABC v Ireland that the rights of Applicant C had been violated under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights due to the State’s failure to legislate for the existing constitutional right to abortion. The Court noted there was a “striking discordance” between the theoretical right to a lawful abortion in Ireland on grounds of a relevant risk to a woman’s life and the reality of its practical implementation.

In January this year, after much can-kicking, Minister for Health James Reilly appointed a 14-member expert group to consider the ECHR judgment of December 2010. The expert group is charged with examining the options available to the government on how to implement this ruling.

In one sense, the establishment of the expert group is a step in the right direction but it is also a delaying tactic allowing government to push this issue to the margins for as long as possible. The reality is that an expert group is not necessary – the legislation required for X is in fact relatively straightforward (although we must be careful the law is not too rigid). The element requiring the most work is the medical guidelines needed to accompany it which should provide long overdue clarity for medical professionals who have been forced to censor themselves due to the severe penalties they could receive under archaic legislation.

Do we really need to legislate for X?

Often when the X Case comes up in the public domain, the argument thrown up by the pro-life lobby is that as things stand, doctors will always act to save the life of a woman even if this means unintentionally terminating her pregnancy, thus there is no need for legislation in this regard.

In reality, things are far more complex than that. As demonstrated by the ABC case where Applicant C – a woman in remission from cancer – found she could not access clear medical advice about the threat to her life if she continued with the pregnancy, or the damage that may have been done to the foetus as a results of tests she had undergone as part of her cancer treatment. Doctors stayed silent, left in a very unclear situation themselves, and were unwilling to advise this woman because of the legal implications surrounding abortion provision. Due to the negative climate around abortion in Ireland doctors are fearful and often unsure whether they can assist a woman, for example, in the provision of post-abortion care – abortion remains a criminal offence under 1861 legislation, carrying a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.

As a result of the failure to legislate for X, Sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 are still in force meaning that women and medical professionals run a risk of serious criminal conviction. As the European Court of Human Rights observed, “The criminal provisions of the 1861 Act would constitute a significant chilling factor for both women and doctors in the medical consultation process, regardless of whether or not prosecutions have in fact been pursued under that Act”.

Why has the State not acted?

As part of its defence in the ABC case, the Irish government argued that restrictions on abortion in Ireland were based on “profound moral values deeply embedded in the fabric of society”. Recent opinion polls, however, beg to differ. The inaugural Irish Times/Behaviour & Attitudes Social Poll published in October 2007 found that 69% of women believe the government should legislate for abortion where the woman’s life is at risk. In 2010 a Marie Stopes/YouGov poll found that 87% of those questioned supported abortion where a pregnancy seriously endangers a woman’s life. It is clear that Irish attitudes to abortion have liberalised significantly over the past two decades.

Successive governments have displayed extreme political cowardice and conservatism in their refusal to introduce the relevant legislation. For the most part elected representatives have been afraid to touch the topic and in doing so they have greatly underestimated the electorate, as demonstrated by the opinion polls above. To be fair to backbench and opposition TDs, the pro-life lobby has traditionally been more visible and vocal on this issue (due in part to the rather staggering amount of resources it seems to have at its disposal) and elected representatives need to know that their constituents support them before they take a stand.

Unfortunately, this issue has for too long been monopolised by an extremely vocal and well-resourced minority who cry “Murder!” at the slightest mention of women’s reproductive rights. This approach stifles public debate and hinders reasonable discussion about a very complex topic. In advocating the right of women to access abortion when their lives are at risk, including the threat of suicide, I do not expect everyone to agree with me. But it is unjust for those who disagree to force that opinion on the rest of us, thereby preventing women from accessing life-saving treatment and doctors from providing proper and necessary care to patients. For twenty years this has been the status quo in Ireland, and the time to act is long overdue.

Alison Spillane is a co-ordinator of the Irish Feminist Network. The IFN is a member of Action on X, an alliance of concerned groups and individuals calling on the Irish Government to act immediately to implement appropriate legislation on the right to abortion in Ireland, 20 years after the X case and one year after the C case judgment in the European Court of Human Rights.

More: Twenty years on: a timeline of the X case>

Read next:

Comments (123 Comments)

  • Burned Toast, through cruel sarcasm, has shown up many of the arguments in the abortion debate. Even if a majority voted yes to a referendum allowing abortion, they still wouldn’t agree on the form that abortion should take in legislation:

    * What are the grounds allowed for disability?
    * Is gender contingent abortion allowed?
    * How many weeks should abortions be allowed up to?

    What frustrates me most about this debate isn’t the debate itself, it’s the generalisations that Ireland is too conservative or judgemental or lacking in compassion or evil or whatever else for not having abortion. Yet when you ask people who make these statements some questions like the above, most don’t have answers.

    To summarise, anyone in favour of abortion should not just have a view on whether it should be legalised, but also on how it should be legalised.

    Reply
  • Ciara 06/02/12 #

    Great opinion piece from Alison Spillane, on a rather solemn anniversary. This argument has gone on too long, just legislate and be done with it.

    Reply
    • Ciara 06/02/12 #

      For me, this map really puts our abortion laws into perspective.

      http://www.worldabortionlaws.com/map/

      It shows us to be on par with the likes of Iraq, Iran and the Congo – all well-known bastions of progressive women’s rights and reproductive health…

      Reply
    • Are women not treated medically if they go straight to a hospital or doctor? Surely a country doesn’t legislate for an occasional rape case. The problem is that like the USA, the Uk and some other countries, babies are being aborted when they are fully viable and for social reasons and the hard cases are being put forward to make a case – it is always a rape case or a “thirteen year old” or someone whose life is in danger and never about the more often social reasons.

      Reply
  • I’m genuinley shocked by some of the comments. This article did not mention anything about abortions outside of potentially life thteatening circuinstances! Surely whatever your views on abortion, it should be allowed exceptional life threatening circumstances! Risking the mothers health is murder I say!

    Reply
    • I agree with you on that one. I also agree to an extent if the pregnancy is as a result of rape or incest, but I think it is such a delicate issue that each case is specific and individual.
      “pro choicers” as they like to be called love that term but what about pro choice for the baby? They are squashing the rights and choices of someone who has no say and not got the chance to defend themselves. In the very act of them exercising their “choice” they are refusing the choice of another.

      Reply
  • Sounds like an anti-choice shit stirrer to me

    Reply
  • Your comment is purely ridiculous. Why not contribute something practical to the debate than saying that legalizing abortion would start a genocide. All the government is being asked to do is legislate for the x case and the case brought before the European court, which should have been done 20 years ago as per the x case. If abortion was brought in there would be obvious conditions as per rape cases incest and limit on how far along the pregnancy is. There are parts of the abortion debate I agree with and some I’m against (e.g allowing abortion up to 24 weeks, I thinks this is wrong and too far along). But at least I contribute points towards a debate instead of inflated comments which are pure tripe!!!

    Reply
  • The whole point of the article was based around the mother’s right to life, where a pregnancy may endanger her life. Not around whether it’s right to make the continuance of a pregnancy a choice of convenience. Let’s not lose the run of ourselves. No just society would force a woman to bear a child as a result of a rape or ask her to risk her life to bear another. Are we a just society, or not?

    Reply
  • You’re all in denial. Thousands of Irish woman are making that trip to England every year. Is it ok so long as it’s not on our doorstep. It’s happening, it’s happening all the time, and it’s never going to stop. Legislate now.

    Reply
  • The sad fact is that this has turned into a liberal v conservative argument! Abortions should never be used as a form of contraception, there are numerous other contraceptive methods available! However it also has to be accessible to those that need it, in cases where the mothers health is at risk! If people are pro life, surely they would support any provisions that protect the life of the mother. Also, to the poster “burnt toast”, you seem to be the type of person who forces opinions down people’s throats! Perhaps you should try a conversation, rather than shouting louder than anyone else in an effort to be heard. It’s called a debate, not a screaming contest!

    Reply
    • I think the issue with the argument there though, is that its not based on the reality of what happens when abortion is legalised. Its very hard to argue against something as sure as ‘Well if the mother will die as a result of pregnancy’. I know if there were that sure a choice for my wife, I would have certainly looked to save her. Is this a realistic scenario though? And if it is, how rare is it? The reality, is that abortion the world over, you’ll find is very very rarely used as a life saving treatment. I’m all for having the conversation, but I find that being led down this, ‘Lets think of the mothers’ route is quite disingenuous. i’m not saying YOU are being disingenuous, I just think the argument which is regularly put forward, as you alluded to above, is a bit of a red herring.

      Reply
    • Kev Mak 07/02/12 #

      @burnt toast, has commented on almost every artical posted within the Journal.His views are alwys the most ‘right wing’, his purpose is to garner more comments than anyone else to fuel his own self importance.The more controvesial he can be allows him to believe he is intellectually superior by having the focus turn to him and away from the story. I now await!

      Reply
  • Todo 07/02/12 #

    Under what circumstances should a foetus be allowed to destroy a young woman’s life? Under what circumstances should a young woman have the right to terminate a feotus? Under what circumstance should a baby be allowed to destroy a young woman’s life? When should a young woman have the right to kill a baby? When is a baby not a foetus? When is a foetus not a baby? I dont know

    Reply
  • Oh dear, maybe I should send your comment to the parents of the School for Special education in my town. I am sure they will agree with you one hundred percent. Is it to late to put them down? It would be a relief to everyone to get rid of them.

    Reply
  • Are you seriously trying to speak to me about maturity with ur opening comment not to mention the fact that you hide a picture of burned toast. i dont think i could be clearer on my intentions, i believe in a womans rights to choose what happens with her own body which is her right. i certainly do not believe that abortion should be used as a form of contraception, i believe they should remove the VAT on condoms which was supposed to happen that never did making them more affordable to the masses and i also believe sex education should be thought to kids properly. so is your answer to this to go against EU law, go against our own supreme court, say feck off to women who in some case requrie an abortion to save their own life and to those who choose to have one and pile them onto a boat off to england as they have for decades??? Or should we set up camps and pile them in there until they are ready to give birth??

    Reply
  • Great article. No need to personalize this. Some people need abortion. It’s not about your history or your mother or the fact that you’re here and grateful for it. It’s about choice. Give us the choice, for goodness’ sake. If you don’t want it, don’t use it. But stop judging others who do need it in different circumstances to you.

    Reply
    • “If you don’t want it, don’t use it”. Would you use the same argument for, say, mugging? As in “If you don’t want to mug people, well, don’t, but allow anyone who wants to mug people to do so without restraint”. That argument doesn’t work because we recognise that mugging is violence against another human being, and therefore we legislate against it. Since abortion is the ultimate violence against human beings at the most vulnerable stage of their existence (in the womb), we must continue to forbid it.

      Reply
  • My god, look at the dates on the laws that govern this, I don’t care if it’s rape insets or just an unwanted pregnancy, you need to have a license to own a dog, surely if a woman (and her partner) does not want to (for whatever reason) or are not ready to bring a child into this world they should be given the choice, a child will only prosper with the full love and support of the person or persons that bring it into this world, we in Ireland are living in the dark aged, let’s move into the 21st century!!!

    Reply
  • Abortions should be legal as long as the foetus hasn’t developed passed 12 or so weeks. People need to remember a foetus isn’t the same thing as a new born baby…

    Reply
    • So Karl, assuming that no civilised human would never knowingly kill a living human being, when do you think life actually begin? Surely we can agree on when that event occurs?

      Reply
    • I don’t know. What I do know is that the longer you leave it, more pain for the foetus/baby and I doubt any woman would want to cause her would be child pain.
      Essentially it’s the woman’s choice. Her body, her say. If she can deal with the physical and mental anguish that comes with terminating her pregnancy, then who are we to tell her she can’t do it?

      Reply
    • I’m so glad that the woman who gave birth to my two children didn’t have an abortion, or the woman who gave birth to my brother so that my parents could adopt him and my three adopted cousins too, I know that there are reasons for some women having an abortion and I would never stand in judgement of anyone for doing it, but sometimes it is an easy way out for some people.

      Reply
    • So true Liz, it frustrates me that the other “a” – adoption – gets sidelined so much these days.

      Reply
    • Karl, you say you don’t know when an individual human life begins, but science does. It begins at conception. So actually, the “foetus”, to use the medical term, is NOT part of the mother’s body but a separate living human being. So, if a civilised society protects human life, especially the most vulnerable, then abortion must not be allowed.

      Reply
    • karl its interesting that you replay the old ”its my body” argument…How can a male baby in the womb or a male embryo actually be part of a female body for a start ? Maybe you know something about embryology that I don’t.Also in many cases the baby has adifferent blood type to the mother ;just one more nail in the coffin to terminate that particular line of abortion industry rhetoric.

      Reply
  • Choice: if you find abortion morally repugnant, how’s about not having one! Pro-choice people aren’t going to make you!

    This also means that if a woman chooses to have an abortion she should be free to do so without fear or intimidation. Banning abortion in Ireland only serves to enhance the profits of Ryanair or worse, force women to buy spurious potions on the internet.

    Ireland, let’s grow up and stop out-sourcing our social issues elsewhere because burying our heads in the sand is easier!

    Reply
  • At the end of the day this is the rights of women, funny how the biggest opponents are men, Still think its a disgrace that women don’t have a choice.

    Reply
  • Draconian Ireland.. Time to get with the programme and legalise abortion.

    Ultimately this should be the woman’s choice. End of.

    Reply
  • Great article, partly because it more or less avoided the typical traps those in favour of abortion fall into i.e. just dismissing all those against abortion as religious nutjobs.

    I hope the Journal, with its stated independent editorial stance, provides an alternative opinion on this divisive issue, from someone who doesn’t agree with legislating following the X case.

    Reply
  • Great article, very well written and to the point. This definitely needs to be addressed. The health of a countries people must be its main focus, otherwise what’s the point? I would hate to see women in this country getting abortions as easily as the UK, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t another option. We can protect our people as a priority and protect the unborn where possible.
    It doesn’t make sense to sacrifice a woman who the state has developed to aid an unborn.

    Reply
  • As a woman I find it worrying that this debate seems to always come down to whether or not the woman’s life is at risk. Rape or no rape, suicide or no suicide, life threatening situation or no life threatening situation it’s about choosing to do what you want to your own body. As a mother of two I find it very difficult to understand the strength someone would need to have to go through with an abortion- I don’t think I ever could. As for comments being made about people using abortion as a contraceptive- unsubstantiated rubbish.

    Reply
    • If you think it requires great strength to go through with it then it follows logically that you think something major – like the destruction of life – is taking place. How then can it simply be a matter of choosing what to do with one’s own body? Surely you are implicitly accepting that it’s not simply a medical procedure where no-one is harmed

      Reply
  • The legislation is overdue. However the concern for the Unborn rings hollow when there is relatively low concern for the Born, especially the vulnerable.

    Reply
  • The ducking and diving of this issue through a succession of governments shows a total cowardice amongst the political classes. I am not in the pro-life camp but I do believe that including the threat of suicide will lead to the liberalisation of abortion on demand. It is exactly how it came about in the UK as the author of this article will be well aware.
    We live in a democracy and while Dev’s constitution recognises the right of life for the unborn maybe the countries attitude has changed. This is what referendums are for. The issue is far too significant to be decided by the Irish judiciary or the ECJ. Let the people decide. A: No change to the law. B: Abortion where the mothers life is at risk (excluding threat of suicide)
    C: Abortion where the mothers life is at risk (including threat of suicide).

    Reply
    • Simon, I mostly agree with you, but on a somewhat side note, just because people vote for something in a referendum doesn’t make it right. A trite example would be where a society voted to euthanise people over 70 because they were considered as an intolerable burden. It may be democratic but it would not be the correct action of a civilised society. The unfashionable tags of right and wrong must be part of any debate.

      Reply
    • 2 referendums have already held up the Supreme Court ruling in the X case. Therefore I think that’s a pretty clear indication that the Irish people agree that an Abortion should be allowed where the mothers life is at risk including the threat of suicide.

      What people don’t seem to understand here is that yes while you may believe the child that will result from this unwanted pregnancy has rights – it should not have any more rights than those of the woman who has to carry it to term and then deliver it. Regardless of whether you are pro life or pro choice. If the mother commits suicide then the baby dies too. So its abortion by suicide. Surely in a modern society we can see that flaw in this? Let the woman have an abortion if she feels so strongly about it that she would rather die than carry the child to term. I don’t see what is so wrong with that.

      Reply
  • Well said, Carol.

    Reply
  • Here’s the thing about choice – if you find abortion morally repugnant, don’t have one. Neither myself or any other pro-choice person will force you to have an abortion.

    For the rest of us, let us make our own choice on the matter! without resorting to emotive nonsense and intimidation. Sadly banning abortion in Ireland only serves to enhance the profits if Ryanair or worse, forces women to buy spurious and dangerous potions from the Internet.

    Ireland let’s grow up and stop exporting our social issues elsewhere – end hypocrisy now!

    Reply
  • One side of the story and one biased view. Is the Journal not commited to unpartizan journalism? Some of the sciene which clarifies this matter that has emerged in the last 20 years wouldn’t go stray either in this piece.

    Reply
    • @Robert this its not about cold science. Its about the choice a woman should have over her own body. Its a disgrace that successive governments have failed to properly legislate for this. To a point where medical professionals can’t even advise their patients properly thus impacting their potentially impacting their quality of care. Especially considering the mandate that has been provided to them by the courts & the electorate.

      Reply
  • i think there should be more emphasis based on educating children before they leave school,when we were at school a foetus was donated to be shown to the children.The catholics are not allowed by the catholic church to use contraceptives as it is considered the same as abortion,the catholic church do not always make good decisions,as in the case with priest who abuse children,ect ,the Government should give out free contraceptives to everyone,and they should be in every location in Ireland..David Mcdermott in my opinion is quite accurate about what he wrote.

    Reply
  • having read your subsequent posts all I can say is what a cynical attempt at trolling! it diminishes the legitimacy of any valid points you might make on this issue!

    Reply
  • Reply
  • I don’t feel i have the right to judge or condemn , up to date they are able to get this service,But i would be concerned as to a persons reason for having to do this ,and there state of mind,most mothers look back with so much regret,and they suffer so much pain.There reasons are so varied,and some are so very young,others are pressurised to make the decision,and some young girls are alone and scared.ignorance also plays a big part with many.We don’t see the tears of the more mature woman who looks back and regrets with all her heart as to her decision.who then in turn help others in the same situation so they don’t have the same regrets.

    Reply
  • I know he’ll be described as a far right loon who hates women by some here but the opinion of Prof William Binchy (Regius Professor of Laws at TCD) is very persausive;

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0119/1224310447287.html

    Reply
  • To all the pro choicers – Go to the foetus section of the Bodies exhibition, before passing comment on when it becomes a human, or just google “12 week foetus.”

    I can’t imagine the horror of a rape pregnancy and maybe abortion is viable in that case, but my issue is that this legislation would open the door to people too lazy/drunk to use condoms, who end looking for an easy way out of pregnancy.

    Reply
    • 12 week foetus. No brain activity, no consciousness, no ability to feel pain, no idea that it exists. Just because IT vaguely resembles a baby, it doesn’t mean it’s a baby. It has the potential to become one, but only if the mother chooses to do allow so.

      Looks like you were taken in by the emotive Legion of Mary shite! I pity you and those who you try and force your Catholic voodoo and witchcraft on!

      Reply
    • Conor, if you anesthetsize someone they cannot feel pain does not make it ok to do whatever you want to them? A parent cannot withhold life-sustaining treatment for their child and the same should apply here. The only exception should be when the mother’s life is in danger or if there is some severe congenital abnormality. This decision then becomes a medical issue and therefore should be a decision made between a woman and her doctor. Otherwise a society must treat the unborn child as a candidate member of society, and provide it the protection it would any other .

      Reply
    • I should credit Christopher Hitchens on the candidate for society view

      Reply
    • Only pregnancy is not life-sustaining treatment Sean. Anaesthetising someone who is living and causing them harm is not the same as not allowing one your “citizen candidates” to become a citizen.

      Not all of the issues here are purely medical. Allowing women control of their reproductive selves is also a huge part of the debate.

      Reply
    • Women do have control over their reproductive cycle, eg the c-OCP, progesterone only pill, implantable coils and sustained release injections of progesterone, and even the morning after pill.

      The fact a foetus cannot feel pain and has limited brain activity is not justification for doing harm to it, similar to anaesthetized patient or one in a temporary coma

      Reply
    • Really! A woman has the same control over her reproductive self as a man! If a man wants he can walk away from pregnancy and children – it’s impossible for a woman to do so.

      Once again I will state that the foetus is not life in the way that you appear to be suggesting. A 12 week foetus that cannot even breathe outside of the womb cannot be viewed either legally or morally as being equal to a newborn life. If this is the path you wish to follow than you debase human life of the value which it should be afforded.

      The ingredients in my cupboard are a potential cake, yet it doesn’t mean that I can place flour, eggs, sugar and butter beside each other and call them something they are clearly not.

      Reply
    • A man shouldn’t walk away from a pregnant woman and the law should enforce this moral obligation.

      Do you not agree that a woman has plenty of options to avoid pregnancy as outlined above? In addition she has up to three days to take the morning after pill or have a coil inserted to avoid an unwanted pregnancy.

      I’m sorry if you see woman’s ability to carry a child as a burden, however, myself and I would image the vast majority of women see this as a great privilege.

      As for your cake ingredients analogy, I’m afraid that would only hold be apt for oocytes and sperm.

      No a 12 week old foetus cannot survive outside the uterus but again can you say that a man who has a severe case of pneumonia is not a person because he cannot breath without a ventilator. If you believe this ”’ than you debase human life of the value which it should be afforded”

      Reply
    • The patient on the ventilator has drawn breath before, where your potential person has not and indeed may not.

      Yes carrying a foetus can be a burden if it is unwanted, a burden and fear neither you or I will ever understand. You and I can’t fear pregnancy in the same way a woman can because the obligations of pregnancy can never be quite the same for us.

      The responsibility of fatherhood should be better enforced, but this will never happen until there is true equality in society and we are light years away from that!

      Who will the school call first when a problem arises? – mother!

      Reply
    • Do you believe that just because you have an opinion that you might be right ! It’s not always the case . So the answer it’s not for you but why do you feel the need to choose for every other person in this country that’s locked in the mid 50s .

      Reply
    • So one is only human once he or she has drawn breath? I don’t understand how you pick that as the essential criteria for making one human.

      The 12 week old foetus would be and in there is a high probability that it would continue to develop a respiratory system if left alone. Interfering with this process carries serious ethical consequences, thus it cannot be undertaken for trivial reasons.

      You are correct men and woman are not equal when it comes to reproduction, but it is biology that creates this inequality not humans. Whether this inequality is seen as a privilege or a curse is up to the individual but it is difficult to accept that a person can terminate a novel form of life when they have many many other methods of contraception.

      I don’t know if its your desire for promiscuous women driving you to form this opinion but it is sad to think that it would shape your view .

      The fact is very few people above the age of 12 don’t know that sex can lead to pregnancy. In addition they know about the existence of contraception. Therefore if either a man or woman chooses to have sex and do not wish to have a child then they must make decisions and act responsibly based on these facts. This is the unfortunate burden of having free will.

      Reply
    • Conor, you repeatedly mention the 12 week old foetus. But it’s ok to have an abortion in the UK up to 24 weeks. Babies have been born prematurely at 21 weeks and survived. How would u deal with this?

      Also Conor, are u saying abortion should only be available to

      Reply
    • @drRibotnik87 – I have already dealt with the possible survival of a near 22 week foetus in a previous response to you and also with the issue of late-pregnancy abortions, so I will not repeat myself here and ask you to refer back to our conversation with Susan Adair Farrelly instead.

      Reply
    • Conor Kirwan, you’re very hung up on the proper terminology and on the mantra that a foetus is not a baby, Im just wondering – if a woman miscarries at 23 weeks and is crying that she’s “lost my baby” do you correct her?

      Reply
  • You will never keep both sides happy with abortion.
    I do however, believe that every life (be it an animal or human) has the right to life – no matter what ‘stage’ they are at.

    Less than 12 weeks? But sure, if that being had have got another few weeks it would have been a ‘life’?
    That means that that being would have a right to life, as it was denied of it’s right to develop.

    I’m a vegetarian anyway so… lol

    Reply
  • This will always be a very delicate and emotive issue no matter what side of the fence you stand on. Personally I believe you should be aware how this new human being is being formed before you jump to conclusion. This will never be a clear cut issue. It is very easy to judge and say that this is not a human being. That it’s just a fetus. You ask any woman that’s pregnant no matter how long or short, it’s not just a fetus but a developing human being, it’s their baby. As a man I will never experience this gift. So with all the other men above who have decided to take it on themselves to explain what is right and wrong what is alive or “developing” and cannot feel pain, I ask for you to take a step back.

    There are very difficult questions to answer when a woman’s life is at risk or if the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest. But these questions will never have adequate answers for both pro life and pro choice. I would love to see statistics as to how many abortions were result of rape and risk. I would love to know how women feel after having an abortion when not for the above traumatic reasons. But this I will never know either.

    We can argue all day as to what’s right and wrong with abortion and get no where. Scientific evidence can be shown to describe the developments day by day of the “fetus” but can never measure the pain of a woman after she removes a fetus from her womb.

    It is very easy to be persuaded to one side when someone calls abortion murder or when they say the fetus cannot feel pain so let’s destroy it before it can.

    I said I would post up the developments of a new human being before you make your mind up on which side of the fence you wish to stand on.

    Day 1: Conception: Of the 200,000,000 sperm that try to penetrate the mother’s egg cell, only one succeeds.2 At that very moment, a new and unique individual is formed. All of the inherited features of this new person are already set – whether it’s a boy or girl, the color of the eyes, the color of the hair, the dimples of the cheeks and the cleft of the chin. He or she is smaller than a grain of sugar, but the instructions are present for all that this person will ever become.

    The first cell soon divides in two. Each of these new cells divides again and again as they travel toward the womb in search of a protected place to grow.3

    Day 6-14:The new individual at first attaches loosely to the wall of the womb, then burrows deeply and attaches securely to it over the next week. Sensitive pregnancy tests can now show positive, but this depends on the level of hormone produced by the new life. By the end of the second week, the mother’s menstrual period is suppressed by this hormone (hCG) which is produced by her child.4

    Day 17:Blood vessels begin to form.4 Remarkably, the future sex cells that will give rise to sperm or eggs for a new generation begin to group together – only 17 days after this new life is alive itself.5

    Day 18-20:The foundations of the brain, spinal cord, and nervous system are laid.6

    Day 21:The heart begins to beat,7 unsurely at first, gaining strength day by day. The heart beats 70 times per minute at first, reaching a maximum of 170-190 at seven weeks, and slowing a bit to 160-180 at 9 weeks.8 A day later the eyes begin to develop. The earliest stages of the ears are now present.9

    Day 26-27:The lungs now begin to form.10

    Day 28-32:Two tiny arms make their appearance and budding legs follow two days later.11 The beginnings of the mouth take shape.12 The nose starts to develop.13 The thyroid gland begins to grow. Blood flows in the baby’s veins but stays separate from the mother’s blood. The tongue now begins to form. The face now makes its first appearance.14

    Day 36:The baby’s eyes develop their first color in the retina (see photo above, right).15

    Day 40:The baby makes her first reflex movements. Touching around the mouth with a fine bristle causes her to flex her neck.16

    Day 41:The fingers begin to form, followed by the toes a few days later.17

    Day 42:The baby develops nerve connections that will lead to a sense of smell. The brain is now divided into 3 parts – one to experience emotion and understand language, one for hearing and one for seeing. 18 Joints begin to form.19 Mother now misses second period.

    Day 44:Buds of milk teeth appear. Facial muscles develop.20 Eyelids begin to form, protecting the developing eyes.21 Elbows take shape. Internal organs are present, but immature. 99% of muscles are present; each with its own nerve supply.22 Electrical activity is detectable in brain.23

    Day 52:Spontaneous movement begins. The baby then develops a whole collection of moves over the next 4 weeks including hiccupping, frowning, squinting, furrowing the brow, pursing the lips, moving individual arms and legs, head turning, touching the face, breathing (without air), stretching, opening the mouth, yawning, and sucking.24

    8 Weeks:The baby is now well-proportioned, and about the size of a thumb. Every organ is present. The liver is making blood, the kidneys function, and the heart beats steadily. The skull, elbows, and knees are forming. Of the 4500 structures in the adult body, 4000 are already present.25 The skeleton of the arms and legs and the spine begins to stiffen as bone cells are added.26

    9 Weeks9 If prodded, the baby’s eyelids and hands close. Genitalia that were forming in the 7th week now become visible, indicating whether it’s a boy or girl. However, the doctor won’t be able to tell by ultrasound until the 12th to 20th week. Early muscular movements begin. The thyroid gland turns on.27

    10 Weeks10 Fingerprints begin their 7 week long formation. The fingernails begin to develop. The eyelids now fuse together until month 7, protecting the delicate eyes.28 The number of connections between nerves and muscles has tripled since last week.29

    11 Weeks11 The baby now “practices” breathing, since she will have to breathe air immediately after birth. The baby urinates. Her stomach muscles can now contract.30 Vocal chords and taste buds form.31 She can make complex facial expressions and even smile.32

    12 Weeks12 Fine hair begins to grow on the upper lip and chin and eyebrows.33 The baby swallows and responds to skin stimulation.32

    13 Weeks13 The face is prettier, and facial expressions may resemble the parents’. The baby is active, but mom doesn’t feel anything yet.34

    15 Weeks15 A wild production of nerve cells begins and continues for a month. A second surge will occur at 25 weeks.35

    4 MonthsNostrils and toenails become visible. The baby may suck her thumb, turn somersaults and has a firm grip. The ovaries of girls contain beginnings of eggs. She begins to develop sleeping habits.32 At about 4 ½ months she is able to experience pain.36, 37

    5 MonthsThe testes descend in boys. Mom may feel the baby kick, turn or hiccup and may be able to identify a bulge as an elbow or head.38 Each side of the brain has a billion nerve cells now.36

    6 MonthsThe baby will be able to hear by next week.39 The child sleeps and wakes, nestling in her favorite positions to sleep, and stretches upon waking up.40

    7 MonthsThe eyelids begin to reopen, preparing to see the outside world.41 Eyelashes have now become well developed.42

    8 MonthsSkin becomes pink and smooth. The pupils of eye respond to light. Fingernails reach to the tip of the finger.42 The baby is really getting cramped now.

    9.5 MonthsThe child triggers labor and birth occurs, an average of 264-270 days after conception.43

    And not until the baby has gone through all these events on the inside can we see the new child on the outside.

    Reply
    • Kev Mak 07/02/12 #

      this is not a ‘comment’ in the usual form but an ‘artical’ which wd have been better served by a ‘link’. Seriously, how many people will read all of your ‘artical’? A wasted opportunity for your real comment.

      Reply
  • I don’t believe this comment comes from a person who is capable of empathy.

    Reply
  • I don’t understand this whole “women’s right to choose” nonsense. We are talking about human lives like, why does any person have to right to end another’s life? Who gets to decide that this child is no more a human being than anyone of us.

    Reply
    • When contraceptives were being legalised in Ireland the arguments were that they would eliminate abortion and guess what? The numbers of abortions escalated. Irresponsible sex is usually the reason for abortion and not rape or mothers lives in danger.

      Reply
  • Louise, I was being ironic to highlight the barbarity which exists in other countries, and which many would like to see here. Of course your sister has every right to life, just like the thousands who are aborted from this country every year. Apologies if I upset you.

    Reply
  • I am all in favour of rights, but my rights should never mean the termination of someone else. We were all once unborn children. No civilised society should kill its most vunerable members, in the name of choice.

    Reply
    • Hmm. Did you read the article Caroline? This about legislation necessary to address issues raised 20 years ago when a young woman, having been raped, wanted to terminate the pregnancy. “In the name of choice” seems a tad unfair in this case, don’t you think?

      Reply
  • Have any of the pro choice seen the silent scream? It is a video of an ultrasound on a baby as it is being aborted, we watched it in school and it can be found on YouTube… I’m not posting the link to it. I can’t see how anyone can watch this video and still be pro choice… You can’t ignore the rights of a baby because you can’t hear or see its pain. You can’t let abortion be legalised in Ireland.. It will just be manipulated into another form of contraception or a quick fix to an unwanted pregnancy.

    Reply
  • It’s always great to see how passionate people are about the core issue of life or death. The life or death of a mother and/or baby. For many of course is is only about half of the issue.

    Reply
  • 41% of pregnancies in NYC end in abortion, disproportionately among the Hispanic and especially the Black communities. Forced abortion is a reality in China. Gender selection is widespread and irredeemably evil and anti-woman. Unnatural gender imbalance is a demographic time-bomb.You don’t have to be religious or conservative to object to abortion, particularly the “on-demand” version so lusted after by our “liberal” icons.

    Reply
  • Abortion should be allowed when the woman’s life is at risk, but not suicide as you mentioned, that’s just open to all kinds of abuse.

    Reply
    • Maybe you should get educated about suicide before you make such judgements David…

      Reply
    • One of the main causes of suicide can be bullying. Does that mean we allow victims to kill their bullies? No. Likewise you don’t allow abortion in the case of suicide.

      Reply
    • Oh dear. This is about the rape of a young woman, David…

      Reply
    • Oh dear…

      Reply
    • @ Michael

      Davids position is logically sound, (if you assume his obvious premise that the unborn is a life), I personally spent an awful amount of time trying to work out a logically sound standpoint on abortion that would allow a good level of individual freedom.
      The best I could come up with is that the unborn gains significant moral weight at conception, though not enough to overwhelm the individual right of choice, however to be the equivalence of a ‘full’ human being at birth then there must logically be a graduated increase in the moral weight of the unborn child throughout the pregnancy, this could possibly be used as a flexible legal mechanism whereby in extraordinary circumstances (rape, incest etc.) you could apply after the basic cut off point (3 months?) to allow an abortion.

      However David is right that if you consider the unborn a full human being (which I don’t, I think its just intellectually convenient and lazy) then rape shouldn’t be a condition for an abortion. Doesn’t really make any sense.

      By the way I wonder can anyone improve on my moral system above for the unborn? I’ve spent a fair time working it out and would like to see if anyone can improve or point a major flaw.

      Reply
  • David, it would be worth your while to understand the history of the Abortion Act of 1967 in the UK (and subsequent amendments), and postulate as to how a similar situation could occur here through an equally ‘innocuous’ route. Few societies vote for widespread abortion on demand; they allow under limited circumstances which soon become abused. The UK is a beautiful example of this. Can you convince yourself this would not happen here, or are you just happy to bring in free and easy abortion? If yes, please say so, and stand by your true intention. If not, please think with more mature reasoning.

    Reply
  • As much as we must empathise and sympathise with such hard cases, it is still rather unsettling to see so many not take into account the life of the unborn. The pro abortion lobby loves to bring up hard cases such as rape etc, but the reality is that the very very large majority of the killing of unborn humans has nothing to do with such hard cases. I certainly wouldn’t look to judge people who feel they would rather kill their unborn child (I mean, surely it must be some state they’re in to consider such a thing), but just like we seek to protect the vulnerable in society (Including those who have gone through a horror such as rape etc), we should not ignore those who have no voice or say in what happens to them, or indeed what has happened to their would be mothers.

    The biggest fear I would have in all of this, is that if the killing of the unborn is legalised under certain circumstances (Like these rare hard cases), then its only a court case away from full legalisation.

    Reply
    • Don’t use unnecessarily emotive terms when nobody is killing anything! As myself and other commentators have pointed out the foetus is not a baby, it is something that may have the potential to become one. It feels no pain, has no consciousness and doesn’t even have brain activity until rather late in pregnancy!

      Reply
    • I’ll use the terms I deem appropriate. We can reduce even the lives of the born to cold medical or scientific terminology. I choose not to. My children were my children before they were born. They didn’t just magically turn from foetuses to children on their first breath. They were my children unborn, and then my children born. Arbitrarily deciding that they aren’t your child until they develop to a certain point is rather, well, arbitrary. Just like my daughter can’t walk yet, there was a time in her development when she couldn’t think yet, she was still the same daughter. So I’ll continue to use the terms I find most accurately encapsulate what a baby is, and you can use the terms you deem appropriate.

      Reply
    • Ignorance is perhaps bliss but a very dangerous state of being James. Just because you choose to ignore that a foetus per-24 weeks is not a baby, it doesn’t make it so. Dismissing scientific fact simply because you “feel” differently is a fool’s errand.

      As I’ve said before if you don’t want an abortion, don’t have one – I won’t force it on you even though individuals like yourself would force a raped child to have a baby against her will. All people like you do is sweep our problems under the carpet and ship them off to England. As I said, ignorance may be bliss but it’s a fool’s errand.

      Let’s hope your poor daughter never has to suffer like this – lord knows you’d have her in a Magdalen laundry.

      Reply
  • No to murder abortion is murder and nothing else,protect all life born and yet to be born

    Reply
    • Dont agree with abortion-DONT HAVE ONE. It is none of your business what I choose to do with my body.

      Reply
    • Susan its not your body, it’s the child your terminating, what did it do that deserves death?

      Reply
    • Ill correct you there, believe it or not it IS my body. And its not a child, it has no consciousness-it is a foetus.

      Reply
    • I’m afraid drRobotnik87 is not a man of neither science nor compassion Susan. If anything he is to be pitied!

      Reply
    • Never mind the compassion, for the lack of science he truly has my pity.

      Reply
    • Ha, so can u enlighten me as to when consciousness starts? And exactly does a foetus become a human? Is there a day when you’re only terminating a foetus, but the following day you’re murdering a human? And if so when is it?

      Reply
    • It depends on legislation of the country you live in, as its an ethical issue its open to opinion

      Reply
    • The foetus doesn’t have the ability to feel pain until the 24th week and doesn’t have brain activity or consciousness until slightly later. Perhaps this clears some things up for you.

      Reply
    • Susan – good job on not answering the question well :)

      Conor – babies have been born at 21 weeks and survived. Do you think it would be ok to terminate the child after birth, so long as it was not 24 weeks old?

      Also, I’m atheist, and the only reason I feel like this is cos I went the the Bodies exhibition the last time it was here, and couldn’t believe how human the foetus is after a few weeks.

      Reply
    • There is one case of a survival at 21 weeks and 6 days, and nobody is certain of the date. Born at 24 weeks there is about a 1% chance of the child surviving and at that it will more than likely have developmental problems. This is very sad but true.

      I am not necessarily suggesting abortions at this late stage – prior to 12 weeks tends to be the norm in most countries – the UK is quite exceptional in this regard. Indeed by not having abortion available in Ireland, it forces women to seek abortions abroad later than necessary.

      You again mention that a foetus resembles a baby very closely. It can be hard to separate ourselves from this image, but the fact remains that a foetus at 12 weeks is not a baby, not even close – it’s a cluster of cells which can become life but has not yet reached that stage.

      Reply
    • The day I seek validation from someone like you about the standard of my answers will be a sorry one. You asked a question, I answered. You don’t like the answer? Not my problem. Where being an atheist comes into it is beyond me, its an irrelevant point. Mind you that seems to be par for the course in your posts. “…How human the foetus is”?? Define ‘Human’…a foetus is not a sentient being.

      Reply
    • How dare you judge women in this country , whom for whatever reason made a very tough decision to terminate a pregnancy abroad . And how dare you refer to them as murderers ! You obviously come from a high moral background which makes it even worse that you judge people . You don’t know the backround of every single case . It’s not a decision that’s made lightly .

      Reply
    • My God. It’s amazing how many people think that anything postulated by the Labour Party must right because it is “liberal”, and that anything the Catholic Church espouses must by definition be wrong. When did we lose the capacity for independent thought?

      Reply
    • So the right to life is conditional upon self-awareness? Great argument for infanticide and killing the handicapped

      Reply
    • Did you read the thread from the start? We are talking about abortion up to the 24th week. Infanticide applies to babies 1month+.

      Reply
  • Whats that you were saying about emotive language Conor? :) As your post suggests, its an emotive topic. Emotion maybe a bit inconvenient at times, but its part of what informs our conscience.
    Its certainly NOT scientific fact that an unborn child is not an unborn child. To make such an erroneous proclamation is to bastardise science. As for shipping off our problems, well thats like saying not allowing your son take heroin in your house is shipping the problem elsewhere.
    Also, your rather disingenuous jibe about the magdalene laundries is rather stifling to any real conversation on the matter, and rather accentuates the irony of you calling for a lack of emotion on the topic. Cases like rape etc, are extremely troubling. I can’t begin to imagine the torment. On one hand, there is a girl who has been raped, and has been left with the rapists child growing inside her. On the other hand though, that child growing inside her, didn’t do anything wrong. In such a circumstance, there probably SHOULD be a choice given to the would be mother. Just like if there is a certainty that the mother would die there should be a choice. In reality though, these are all red herrings in the abortion debate. Abortion on account of rape etc, is extremely rare. As I said in my initial post, its a topic we should approach with empathy and sympathy, but not forgetting the vulnerable position of the unborn. Also, as previously stated, my fear would be the introduction of abortion for hard cases, would simply open the door to full legalisation.

    Reply
    • You say it’s not scientific fact that a foetus is not a child, but curiously you neglect to back this up with any form of an argument or scientific study where I have done so.

      Again, exporting our social problems is a historical feature of this country and not limited to abortion. In times of high unemployment the policy tends towards emigration. Where were “troubled” girls sent to in the mid-twentieth century, but to England so that we could hide our shame in another part of the world.

      With the heroin idea that you bring up, I think a more appropriate comparison to make would be with needle exchanges which are not especially designed to prevent drug-taking, but to provide addicts with a safer environment where the risk of HIV is minimised.

      As with abortion, forcing women to travel is sending the problem away. These women tend to abort later and without the supports they would have at home. Those who can’t travel often resort to ordering dangerous pills off the Internet which endanger them. Banning abortion in Ireland does not prevent a single procedure, all it does is place Irish women in a more uncomfortable position than is necessary. It lacks compassion and what I would call Christian charity.

      Once again I would like to point that the pro-life lobby will not force a woman to have an abortion. If you don’t want one, don’t have one. I challenge you to produce a decent reason on this basis as to why abortion should remain a crime in our society.

      Reply
    • I very much doubt you have access to any scientific papers that proclaim an unborn child is not an unborn child (maybe something pseudo scientific?). Why would I need a scientific study to deal with a non scientific question anyway? Science cannot possibly proclaim what is and what isn’t an unborn child. This is part of the all to common bastardisation of science occurring these days. Its like a hair product ad that mentions science to give it weight. It is quite the deceit to paint the picture of the scientific ‘facts’ you proclaim.

      Also, references to ‘hiding our shame’ etc are simply another red herring. The choice is NOT, ‘Abortion or a life of shame, or magdalene laundries’. This is a sensitive area, which requires compassion towards all involved. That some don’t wish to consider the unborn, is the issue I have. That does not mean that we simply ignore the would be mothers. I have stated that in the last post that I would probably give the choice to those in those extreme circumstances, not because I think that abortion is right in these circumstances, but rather through empathy. At the same time, I have the foresight to realise that if it was introduced for such hard cases, then its only a matter of time, before the unborn child is completely left out of consideration.

      Reply
  • David, funny how a person is a liberal when they support choice but not when they attempt to protect the most vulnerable of society. Because that’s what I understand liberalism and libertarianism to be?

    Reply
  • Of the 50 million aborted in the USA since Roe V Wade, how many were carried out because of a rape? Why Is it having such a disproportionate effect on the black community in America? Is this an attempt to contain this community. Why in china, and elsewhere, is it used for gender selection, not a desirable feminist outcome surely? Originally seen as part of the mix for population restriction, abortion and it’s bedfellows are the source of the demographic winter we are now facing and are probably the singular biggest contributor to the worldwide economic crises.
    If an agenda repeats a lie often enough it may become the Truth. And if the ugly sounds plausible enough, then perhaps it will become Beauty.

    Reply
  • Journal – second day in a row you ran a story on this topic. Very very one sided today. Since when does a woman’s “right over her body” rise above the right to life of another? Or put another way, since when does a woman have the right to kill? The sad fact is, abortion could be introduced due to emotive cases like this, and in 20 years time, we have on-demand abortion or even the Nazi like “partial birth abortion”. it sick, depraved, and beneath contempt. Even the pro abortion/death person in Rowe/Wade has now become seriously pro life. For Gods sake- put the child up for adoption if you don’t want it. Just dont kill it.

    Reply
  • No to murder

    Reply
  • Hhhhhhmmmmm isnt it peculiar that more men than women have left comments on this topic.

    Reply
  • As a writer with no particular agenda, I once asked myself the question “what if a foetus could think and talk”. The result was TERMINATION, a Radio Play, which followed the journey of IT from conception to Abortion. Accepted by RTE Radio, the script was magnificently realised by the RTE Radio Drama Department. Shortly after the broadcast was flagged in the RTE Guide, the broadcast was cancelled without explanation. The script is available on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Termination-ebook/dp/B006VXNVUQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1328568095&sr=1-1 I am leaving it to people to read the script and to make their own judgments in the matter, and to decide for themselves whether the suppression of the broadcast was justified or not.

    Reply

Add New Comment