TheJournal.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more »
Dublin: 6 °C Thursday 23 May, 2013

Opinion: ‘Rejection could force Ireland to greater austerity’

On a ‘Yes’ vote: IBEC Director General Danny McCoy says that voting against the fiscal compact could bring dangerous economic instability and uncertainty.

Danny McCoy

IRISH BUSINESS CAN deliver the growth needed to overcome our debt burden, but companies will only invest and create jobs if there is economic stability and confidence in the future.

A Yes vote in the upcoming referendum will remove uncertainty in relation to Ireland’s future funding options and allay investor concerns about our economic outlook. In doing so, it will provide a platform for investment, growth and recovery. In stark contrast, there is not a single benefit to be gained from a No vote.

A No vote would create dangerous economic instability and uncertainty, and would undermine the very significant efforts that the whole country has made in recent years to revive our economic fortunes. This is, frankly, the last thing we need at a time when Ireland is slowly but steadily getting back on its feet.

Yes, major challenges remain, but the Irish economy has stabilised, and grew last year for the first time in four years. Despite the ongoing nervousness surrounding the eurozone crisis, the economy will again expand by about 1 per cent this year.

The jobs outlook has also improved somewhat over recent months and the export recovery has meant that job creation has exceeded job losses for the first time since 2007. The country is on the right track, it is not any easy path, but we need to stay the course. There is no quick fix alternative, notwithstanding the dubious claims of some treaty opponents.

‘Sensible rules to get debt under control’

The treaty is essentially about the better management of public finances.  It sets out sensible rules, the vast majority of which are already in place, to ensure that countries keep their debts under control and balance their budgets.

There is also flexibility built in. This enables governments to react decisively in times of acute economic difficulty.  The structural deficit rule, for example, takes account of the business cycle and explicitly allows government to take the necessary steps to support economic activity during a downturn.

In isolation, the treaty will not solve all of Ireland’s or Europe’s economic difficulties. But it is an important step in ensuring that we avoid future crises.

Taken together with other financial and governance reforms that eurozone governments have already agreed to, the treaty will deliver greater economic stability and help avoid the boom and bust cycle which Ireland, in particular, has been vulnerable to.

Of course we also need growth. The fact that growth is rapidly moving up the EU’s agenda is a very positive thing, but this does not negate the need for fiscal discipline. We need to do both, fix the public finances and grow the economy. Suggestions that we have a choice between growth and austerity are simply not true.

Claims that the treaty necessitates massive additional austerity are deeply misleading. The vast majority of the commitments set out in the treaty are already in place, either in the Growth and Stability Pact, or in the so called ‘six pack’ agreement that Ireland, along with our EU partners, signed up to last year.

But even without such commitments, Ireland cannot avoid tackling the deficit. To get back into the markets at a reasonable cost Ireland will have to repair its public finance position. This necessity, rather than EU rules, will be the predominant determinant of Ireland’s fiscal policy in the coming years.

‘Rejection would damage confidence and politically isolated the country’

While many treaty opponents misrepresent the consequence of a Yes vote, they also choose to ignore the dangers of rejection. A No vote would damage confidence and leave the country politically isolated and financially vulnerable.

Over the coming years Ireland will need to borrow billions to keep the country running. This money will be spent on health, education and welfare supports.

But markets will not lend to Ireland if there is any doubt about our ability to repay our debts. As Europe’s lender-of-last-resort, the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) provides Ireland with a valuable insurance policy.

The Referendum Commission has put a stop to the spurious argument that Ireland could still have access to the fund in the event of a treaty rejection: No to the treaty means no access to the ESM.

If we exclude ourselves from the ESM, the country’s funding prospects beyond 2013 are uncertain. Even if markets were to lend to us, the interest rate of such a loan would be significantly more costly than that of the ESM.

The legally dubious suggestion that Ireland could and should veto the establishment of the ESM is perhaps the most misguided of all the assertions coming from the No side. Our European partners will go ahead with the establishment of a pan-European bailout facility with or without us.

Rejection of the treaty could then actually force Ireland to greater austerity. We could be forced to rapidly close the spending gap by radically cutting public spending and increasing taxes. The knock-on effect of another major economic shock on the country and economy are profoundly undesirable, both for businesses operating here, but also for each and every citizen of the country. We need to avoid this risk.

Growth is the most effective antidote to austerity, and business can deliver this growth, but first we need stability. A Yes vote will help us take back control of our economic future; give businesses the confidence to invest, grow and create jobs; and ensure that we have absolute certainty about the future funding of the state. A Yes vote will ensure that Ireland’s recovery remains on track.

Danny McCoy is Director General of IBEC, a representative body for Irish businesses and employers.

Read next:

Comments (161 Comments)

  • It’s a very sad day when money means absolutely everything

    Reply
    • Hear hear!
      People are so out of touch with what really matters these days. The Dalai Lama hit the nail on the head with this;

      When he was asked “What thing about humanity surprises you the most?”, the Dalai Lama answered:

      “Man…. Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.”

      Reply
    • That’s true, but still need to work and live. No

      Reply
    • AlMar 12/05/12 #

      I agree with your comment Choon, and indeed I agree with the Dalai Lama.

      As I write this you have 22 thumbs up, one of which is mine. You have no thumbs down.

      If someone gave a similar quote from a pope (and there are many to choose from), I doubt the reaction would be so positive even though the message would be the same.

      Just an observation….

      Reply
    • Maybe if he wasn’t dripping in gold, in a palace with artworks and artifacts worth millions, while using every means possible to avoid paying for the crimes carried out against children by members of his church over the years the reaction might be more positive. just saying.

      Reply
    • yea well the pope runs the worlds biggest pedophile training and conference facility, he hates gay people, unmarried mothers, pregnant unmarried mothers, condoms, small dogs, goldfish……..oh yes, I forgot. Children born out of wedlock are going to hell according to him.

      Nice chap, only green thumbs for him.

      Reply
  • like i needed further reasons to vote no …IBEC advocating a yes vote

    Reply
  • Is anyone else sick of these throw away comments like ‘Will damage confidence’ & ‘will cause uncertainty’

    This is just political jargon.. Just like ‘turning corners’ etc .. They have Zero substance and the recent proof has shown this if you use all the jargon from the Lisbon campaigns!

    Tell an ordinary couple around their 50′s who are putting a couple of kids through college, with 2 already emigrated and now the father has lost his job in the last year..tell them about damaged confidence and uncertainty… I’d like to see their response !

    Reply
  • im sick of hearing yes voters say where will money come from? well why dont all ye yes voters tell is where exactly will the next 5billion approx in cuts come from in the next 2 years and then a further 6 billion to fall inline wit the treaty terms. so in the nxt few years if we vote yes the gov will take approx 11 billion out of the economy. it wont be their salarys they touch. so come on yes voters seen ye are all about “show me the money” please tell me what kind of country we will have and where the cuts will come from if a yes vote wins??? bearing in mind further cuts on top of the 11 billion will be needed to get within 0.5% of gdp. voting yes will mean austerity wit no means of investing. we will be borrowing to pay back what we borrowed. il be voting no. there are no easy answers but at least future generations will have a chance. this generation needs to accept that its gonna be hard but wr have to make sacrifices for our children and our childrens children. if we vote no and nobody lends then we default and let the german bondholders go to hell for their money. there are other eu countrys in trouble who are speaking against this treaty. we need to stick together and not allow germany to take over europe. vote no!!!!

    Reply
    • Nuala,

      Have you got a breakdown of what the 6 billion cuts figure is based on? I see the no side bandying it about a lot. I could a lot more convincingly WITH A BREAKDOWN OF THE FIGURES argue thst no cuts will be needed at all. That fact is that 4 years from now, no-one knows for sure what the world will lool like.

      One thing we surer of is that schools, hospitals, social welfare recipients etc. will need 36bn of funding in 2014-15.

      So if we vote no, where would you get 36bn of cuts?

      Reply
    • Well said Nuala.. It worries me to think there are so many sheep in our country.

      Reply
    • Greece is in flames!! They’ve had their say and they’ll have it again. 1 month of anti bailout capital exodus ( not just business, ordinary citizens have been pulling their deposits out in their billions on the last two weeks) will sharpen minds. This original protest vote will soften in the next one…

      Reply
    • Darren, you were given this information in a previous thread, as you know, despite repeating that I was making the figures up and making unsubstantiated claims

      http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/other/spuapr2012.pdf

      The relevant figure is in table A5 based on EU methods of calculation. It shows the 3.5% estimate that will have to be adjusted under the treaty to 0.5%

      Reply
    • TTL,

      I didn’t reply before because there’s nothing in that about 6bn in cuts and to be honest I got bored. That’s the detail I’m looking for. Do we need to go through this charade again where I again and again, I back up my figures but you don’t back up yours?

      Reply
    • Actually darren I demonstrated why we would need 6 billion in additional cuts using the terms of the treaty and Department of Finance forecasts. I believe your end of the deal was to respond by giving us the figures for where these cuts would be made, as you are advocating a vote which would make them necessary.

      1. Are you disputing the Department of Finances figures? (table A5) http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/other/spuapr2012.pdf

      2. Wheres those 6 billion in cuts coming from that your ‘yes’ vote would necessitate

      Reply
    • TTL, you did no such thing. You presented nothing. If you’d done it, you’d be posting them here. All you’ve done is present this 3.5% adjustment figure and the guys below say that that could be easily met over a few years with even minimal growth.

      Here are my figures from independent economists saying these allegations of 6bn in cuts are just made up.

      http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/05/02/some-budgetary-arithmetic-for-fiscal-rules/

      http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2012/05/additional-fiscal-effort-scaremongering.html

      Reply
    • Oooh, darren has two people telling him what he wants to hear, I have the Department of Finance figures and the words of the treaty.

      Guess that settles it darren, well done! LOL!!

      Reply
    • You got this 6bn on a Sinn Féin leaflet and nowhere else, Next time, put up your hand and ask where the stuff you’re being handed comes from.

      Reply
    • How many billion do you think it will take in 2015 to adjust our structural deficit from 3.5% to 0.5% darren? Would you like me to link to the Department of Finances figures a third time? Or would you like to keep pretending the document doesn’t exist?

      Reply
    • Darren Gibney. Again You are useing false argument. the “What happens if we are shut out of everything?” ploy is great because the only answer is “we can do nothing “and that helps spread the fear. But it is baseless in as far there is no evidence that we will be shut out of anything. If you have any valid and inteligent questions or comments that help move the debate on, I would love to hear them.

      Reply
    • TooTrueLeft, it’s precisely because we CAN’T make a budget adjustment of 6billion or bigger that the treaty is needed. An adjustment as big as you’re suggesting would kill us completely so we have to spread the cuts out. Therefore as our finances won’t be in order to go back to the markets, no matter what the government says about us not needing a second bailout, we will need one and the only way we can get affordable money is through the ESM. The only way we will have access to the ESM is if we ratify the treaty.

      Reply
  • Sign away what’s left of your economic sovereignty so that Irish business can do its ‘thing’.

    yeah, right.

    Leave the Euro, Repeal the bank guarantee, as it was imposed under duress. Print our own money, debt free, as that’s what created this whole mess in the first place. People need to understand, that borrowing state finances at interest, no matter how low the interest, can never not cause a crisis over time…..its in the maths, because the interest never gets printed, & just keeps accumulating, until it becomes unmanageable.

    this is the only way to get back to growth

    Reply
  • A bit unfortunate using an IBEC spokesman – what’s good for business isn’t always good for society.

    The “rising tide floats all boats” argument sounds fine and dandy in theory, but the experience of the last few years suggests that in a business-led economy it is just not true, and wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of the few.

    Just look at the figures for the widening gap between the wealthy and the poor over the last 20 years in Ireland, the UK, the US and others. That wealth gap unfortunately now stands at record levels.

    Reply
  • To be honest I’m quite sick of hearing different peoples opinions on this treaty. The irish people are not stupid, just give us the facts and let us decide how we want to vote, no campaigns, no trying to scare us into voting a certain way, no opinions from anyone published in the press.

    Reply
  • Gzeit 12/05/12 #

    Hi, apologies in advance but this article really made my blood boil so I felt the need to dissect it. I find it unbelievable that such an article was even penned in the first place!

    “a yes vote in the upcoming referendum will remove uncertainty in relation to Irelands future funding options and allay investor concerns about our economic outlook. In doing so, it will provide a platform for investment, growth and recovery.” – All speculation and matter of opinion, phrased in such a way to scare people into agreement! Nobody can guarantee that a yes vote will be a platform for growth and recovery and to make such a claim is in my opinion outrageous!

    “A No vote would create dangerous economic instability and uncertainty, and would undermine the very significant efforts that the whole country has made in recent years to revive our economic fortunes. This is, frankly, the last thing we need at a time when Ireland is slowly but steadily getting back on it’s feet” – Once again, this is all speculation and matter of opinion. How can he claim to definitively know what will happen if we vote no? The language he uses is typical of the shite we hear day in day out from gov & politicians in Ireland and all over the world! Implanting fear into the minds of people by using words like dangerous, instability, uncertainty & undermine about a possible situation in the future. If someone has that knowledge of the future then he is not of this world and shouldn’t be campaigning for any referendum! I’d also like more detail on his so call claim that this country has made significant efforts to revive economic fortune? Unemployment still at unacceptable levels, emigration still rampant, public services still in a mess, banking system that’s a shambles still robbing from the public despite being bailed out, huge impending mortgage issues. All the while Gov still over paying and breaking their own pay caps on advisers while taking home a wage that only most of us could dream of! Revive our economic fortune u say? Revive their own self interests while doing their best to keep the public at bay more like it!

    “Yes, major challenges remain, but the Irish economy has stabilised, and grew last year for the first time in four years. Despite the ongoing nervousness surrounding the eurozone crisis, the economy will again expand by about 1 per cent this year” – Is this true? I know for a fact that Ireland’s growth rate was negative for the las quarter of 2011 and the growth rate for 2012 has been cut and in my opinion from listening to some economists will be cut even further!

    “the job outlook has also improved somewhat over recent months” – Really? Unemployment rate is improving?

    “The treaty is essentially about better management of public finances. It sets out sensible rules, the vast majority of which are already in place, to ensure that countries keep their debts under control and balance their budgets” – Ok well if the vast majority of this is already in place why do we need to enshrine it into our constitution? Why do we need this treaty indefinitely dictating how we manage our budgets? Why can’t we reject the treaty & implement the same rules at a national/gov level hence retaining the power? I mean is it really beyond comprehension that we could actually balance our budgets to an acceptable level? Now our Gov has proven to it’s European masters that we keep our word & stick to what we say not matter what, then surely a commitment to manage our budgets effectively is enough to keep them happy. After all we are the best pupil in the class!

    “In isolation, the treaty will not solve all of Ireland’s or Europe’s economic difficulties. But it is an important step in ensuring that we avoid future crisis” – The first sentence I agree with, but not the second. If this treaty had been in place it would not have stopped or even helped to stop the current mess we find ourselves in so I completely reject that misleading statement. If we want to stop future crisis we need to examine not just the causes of the crisis but the system we have which allow crisis to occur. In my opinion the system is the problem and it needs to be changed. Danny McCoy goes on to say “Together with other financial and governance reforms that eurozone governments have already agreed to, the treaty will deliver greater economic stability and help avoid the boom and bust cycle which Ireland, in particular, has been vulnerable to.” Anyone with half a brain who looks back over time and examines the system we are in, the system of growth growth growth, in a world of finite resources can only come to one conclusion, it is unsustainable! Indefinite growth on a planet with finite resources is simply put Impossible! One thing is for sure is that as long as the goal is growth in this current system then there will always be boom and bust cycles. He goes on to say “Of course we also need growth. The fact that growth is rapidly moving up the EU’s agenda is a very positive thing” – I completely disagree, due tithe reasons I have outlined above I find it extremely worrying. Instead of trying to bring about real change, change towards a more sustainable and environmentally sound future we are continuing down the same old road of growth, over consumption & waste! If we truly want change and a brighter future we need to unite and question not just austerity but growth and demand real change, a change of system.

    Reply
    • Excellent post Gzeit!!!
      Even the whole funding issue with the ESM has not been agreed at an EU level.. It’s ALL here-say!
      But there is no truth offered by the government or IBEC or the author.. Just all jargon and speculation!
      On the NO side, which I am on, there is also a degree of uncertainty around some points should we vote NO, however we can be certain that we don’t want to further enshrine measures into our constitution that will nationalise more bank debt and also lessen the possibility of a rise in the domestic economy and also in socio-ecomic terms.. That is for sure if we vote yes

      Reply
    • Brilliant post Gzeit, a comment of the week IMO!

      Reply
  • Dave 12/05/12 #

    Same old rubbish from the vested interests protecting themselves. “stability” “stability” “you like reassuring stability, dont you?”.

    Actually, no. No I dont. Because the only thing “stable” or “certain” about Ireland right now is economic depression and the attack on my living standards while all you ***** in Ibec preach your shite that ultimately only stands to benefit yourselves.

    Profits get privatised. Debt gets socialised. Not any more. Vote NO.

    Reply
  • Vote No, IBEC aren’t asking for a Yes to help the vast majority of the populace get back to decent living standards, they’re just asking for a Yes to keep the moolah flowing into their coffers, FG & Labour & FF are in favour of keeping the wealthy wealthy so they’re all merry bedfellows, oh and @Darren LOL!!!!!!!!

    Reply
  • Paul Oh 12/05/12 #

    Not convinced that this is anything other than the financial institutions tightening their death-grip on us. It will be a big fat fecking NO from me and I will be brining my own pen to the polling station. Trust no one who insists something is in your own best interest.

    Reply
  • Another big statement! Another load of nonsense! Irish businesses are all about exploiting cheap labour and making vast profits for shareholders! The same shareholders that hold the unsecured bank bonds! Their really starting to panic now! I can’t see how a yes vote is going to help anyone who’s unemployed or working in a low paid job! Without government investment nothing will change for the less well off! In fact these people will gradually become poorer as the government continue with austerity policies designed to maintain high living standards for themselves and their high powered cronies! I can’t say for sure what a no vote will actually mean to the less well off, but if you have nothing as things stand, the worst thing that can happen with a no vote is to still have nothing! Judging by the panic coming from the from the other side, I suspect a no vote just might ensure that they also have to start paying their share! They’ve tried to pull the wool over our eyes once too often!

    Reply
  • Vote Yes to insert guaranteed austerity for 20+ years into our constitution.

    Reply
    • We’ve already subscribed to 0.5% structural deficit, 60% public debt to GDP ratio and all of the other fiscal rules in the Stability and Growth Pact and Six Pack reforms. Rejecting the Treaty will not avoid these. Stop swallowing the self-serving ‘No’ propaganda like a thirsty hooker.

      Reply
  • That article is very unbalanced! Austerity is here for decades. If one Spanish town is in Debt for the next 7k years then we can assume a similar situation for Ireland, it’s high time people woke up say no to someone else’s debt burden!! Socialised Debt equals Corporate profits.

    Reply
  • Bailout 1 worked so well, we can’t wait for Bailout 2! Ask the Greeks, they’ll tell you how good it is.

    In fact, here is Eamon Gilmore getting some advice from deposed Greek PM, George Papandreou of sister-party PASOK. I bet he got all the best tips on how to burn his economy faster

    http://www.labour.ie/blog/2011/03/04/eamon-gilmore-with-george-papandreou-prime-minister-of-greece-and-leader-of-pasok-/

    Reply
  • “the country will need to borrow billions to spend on health and welfare..” eh hang on.. Why would they need to borrow billions if we voted yes? Sure we’d be getting LOADS of jobs off the back of a yes vote which would mean more taxes for this sort of thing..wouldnt we?? ALSO they’ve done nothing but CUT social welfare and will do so again in budget 2013 REGARDLESS of a yes or no vote. So the only borrowing that will be done (again) REGARDLESS of a yes or no vote will be for the banks.

    Love how they insert words like ‘welfare, health, education’ to try blind people.

    I’m voting NO..
    NO NO NO NO NO. NO MORE!

    Reply
    • What do we need more jobs for? The Lisbon referendum gave us I think 8 jobs each. Maybe it was 9. I’m so loaded from all the investment it brought that I can’t quite remember the exact number.

      Reply
  • Vote no….Why should we vote for it when.the treaty is open for renegotiation plus “Hitler in drag” Herr flick Merkel has delayed German ratification now….! vote NO

    Reply
  • It really is a shame we abandoned the trivium method of education. This is comprised of Grammar – the who, what, where, and when of the subject. Logic, the why? And Rhetoric, the wisdom imparted.
    These three things when considered in order tell you the truth of the statement. As in, take out the adjectives, and word techniques, check the logic and once all the logical fallacies have been removed what is left is the facts.

    If people were educated in this way they would see through this stuff immediately. Most of us get the feeling it’s not right, but when you can actually see what it is that has put you off and know why it is wrong it is invaluable.

    •The Yes side are keeping relatively quiet about the status of the ESM and the treaty involved with that. As it is intrinsically linked with this treaty, and it is used as the reason to vote yes, I find this rather sinister.
    •The Yes side seem to be framing the ESM as a guaranteed, accessible entity, as though it is all there for us – what about the other nations of the EU in the same boat? Oh yeah, the ESM (if it comes into effect) can call in extra capital whenever it wants, granting the nation they are collecting from 7 days to come up with it. We are already on the hook for €11bn, subject to increase on demand, at the totally unaccountable ESMs discretion. And forget about any form of legal process, they’re all immune.. But I guess that’s nothing new, it’s not like anyone’s been held accountable so far..

    Insanity is defined as repeating the same action and expecting different results, this treaty is more of the same – even the Yes side claim this (already existing rules – that Germany and France were the first to break!) Vote yes to insanity. Vote No to preserve any hope of trying something new – something that has more likelihood of succeeding by sheer virtue of not being more of the same!

    Reply
    • First rule of bullshite detection:
      Are they predicting future events?

      Second rule of bullshite detection:
      Have they done this before?

      Third rule of bullshite detection:
      Is the source an alliance of “businesses and employers”.

      Reply
  • ‘Rejection could force Ireland to greater austerity’, Accepting it WILL force Ireland into greater austerity. VOTE NO

    Reply
  • Still voting NO! If IBEC had their way we would all be working for bread and water. Irish big business screwed the Irish citizens during the tiger years knowing that credit was so easily available. An illusion of wealth which no longer exists. I would not trust anything this self interested group has to say.

    Reply
  • I am voting no to years and years of austerity.

    Reply
    • Years and years? You don’t know that for sure.

      One thing we’re surer of is that schools, hospitals, social welfare recipients etc. will need 36bn of funding in 2014-15.

      So if we vote no, where would you get 36bn of cuts?

      Reply
    • Actually darren, given the figures we will be enshrining into our constitution, we are guaranteeing austerity for years and years. And stop waving your partys blackmail and threats around, you’re fooling nobody.

      Reply
    • TTL condemns “threats” and then threatens, LOL! The cuts will be nothing compared to the massive state shutdown that will be required if we have to cut 36bn from social welfare, hospitals etc.

      And we’re not enshrining the hard figures into our constitution. Just the freedome to enact the laws. We won’t need another referendum to change the deficit limits etc.

      Reply
    • It’s not a threat darren, its simple math. A Threat is when you tell a country that if they don’t vote the way you demand that you’ll take something away that they were going to have access to. Or as it’s also known, the entire ‘yes’ campaign.

      Reply
    • Okay, TTL. Let’s say that clause is taken out. And we vote yes. A few years down the road, the Greeks need another bailout. Please confirm that you’d be happy to give Irish taxpayers’ money to Greece with no guarantees that they’ll keep an eye on their budgets, stick to the rules etc.

      Reply
    • Again, I’ll point out that guarantees from a country who cannot possibly pay its debts aren’t worth the paper they can’t afford to write it on.

      Reply
  • I welcome all these wealthy CEO’S, Director generals, bankers and others untouched by austerity and immune to every cut, tax rise and inevitable poverty telling me to vote yes, couple them with FF- the architects of the recession and bailout, the EU/ECB and the quisling coalition of FG/Labour and me marking the NO box will be all the sweeter.

    Reply
  • Its time to leave the euro..its a dead duck and those looking to save it are the small elite at the top looking to save their our skin’s, nothing to do with saving the citizens.
    As for funding, I find it very hard to believe that there isn’t one country or financial institution that we couldn’t turn to.
    The ECB printed 1 trillion euros after Christmas !! Where’s that money gone ?? There’s 800 million citizens in the Euro zone, why not print 800 million euro and divide it out among the citizens ? Because the rich don’t want any else moving in beside them.
    So lets do what the Argentine’s did a few weeks back and nationalize our oil,gas and fish (In Iceland, fishermen are making double pre crash wages).
    ‘But we dont have the money to drill for oil’ I hear you scream..Fine, sit on it for 10-20 years till we do !!
    And one last thing..LETS TAKE CONTROL OF OUR MONEY AWAY FROM PRIVATE FOR PROFIT BANKS !
    Would it be so bad if Governments printed the money and lent it to banks !!
    All you yes people seem to think that if you keep you head in the sand this won’t catch up you and f*^k the rest of us…If we vote yes on this we’re ALL fooked.

    Reply
    • Wow your a genius if we gave each citizen €1 it would be great!!!!? I earn less than the average industrial wage but i am voting yes because people like you wont stop at making banks not for profit, pretty soon im sure i would be working for free too and my savings would probably be requisitioned for the socialist good!

      Reply
    • My bad Shinner…so lets print 1 trillion and divide it…that suit you better…

      Reply
    • one last thing Shinner…interesting to see that you don’t have a problem with your money being taken to help faceless German bankers, but God forbid you money is taken to help your fellow citizen !!

      Reply
  • http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101780

    Read this exceptional piece and it should put your indecisions to bed… Vote no and save what’s left of our country.

    Reply
  • Vote NO

    Reply
    • Why?

      Reply
    • Tactical warfare…putting the fear in our mind,to vote for them..

      Reply
    • Paula 12/05/12 #

      Basic rule of thumb when voting in European Treaties, whatever they tell you…do the opposite.

      The following are simple understandable facts about Ireland:

      Everything Irish politicians tell you is a lie
      All of their threats are empty
      Whatever they say is best for Ireland, is for their best interests only
      They do not care about the people
      The Irish government is made up of teachers and lawyers who are not qualified to advise us about anything
      It is said that our leader Enda Kenny has the lowest IQ of any leader in the world

      No..when they ask you the first time
      No..when they ask you the second time
      No..when they ask you the third time

      Vote no

      Reply
  • AlMar 12/05/12 #

    The Yes campaign is a bit like the boy who cried wolf.

    For the past several referenda they have tried to scare people with the yarn that a No vote would damage investment and stability. This has always been BS – a quick glance at the pattern of global FDI shows this to be the case.

    It will be interesting to see if the effect of the scare tactics has worn off altogether in this referendum when there is actually, for the first time, some slight basis for their argument.

    Reply
  • The best way to control our mounting debt is to STOP SPENDING MONEY. This country is currently borrowing €15b a year to find bloated public service salaries and pensions. Just cut this waste now! We are going to have to do this anyway in a few years Instead we are borrowing borrowing borrowing and leaving a mess for our children to pay off. Disgraceful!

    Reply
  • Vote NO

    Reply
  • So the argument from the yes side is we are going to be marginalised by Europe if we don’t vote yes. So if we don’t vote yes we will be denied funding and left to venture out into the big bad world of government bond auctions without the help of the ESM. So by that logic where are the figures to show how bad it will get? These scare tactics are about as useful as a chocolate teapot. So we are being charged 3% on are bailout at the moment and we still can’t get our debt to GDP down so this magical ESM is going to help us out. It is in its hat it is set up for a state of perpetual debt where we the Irish state relinquished our sovereign economic control and have a group of unelected economic technocrats deciding how to balance the books. It is bad enough that we have the ECB and the IMF now but if this treaty is voted in we may as well give up all together as the ESM will be privatising the whole country for the best possible profit in lowering “our” debt.

    Reply
  • You’ve seen some of what they have already signed up to cut, causing people to die on trolleys etc.. Imagine what else they will have to commit to for a second bailout. Putting balancing books before peoples lives is disgusting!
    Google “punk economics lesson 1″ for a 5 min video on what’s really happening… Vote No!

    Reply
    • I’m confused. When we didn’t have the money to pay for our health services we borrowed from the markets. Then, when they wouldn’t lend us any more we got funding from the troika. If we say no to another bailout, who exactly gives us money for these health services etc?

      Reply
    • @Colm
      We need to be out of the euro.
      What did we do before the euro and the other few hundred years from metal based through to fiat currency.

      There can be currency attacks by marketes as was seen in the UK with Gordon Lamont in the 90′s but in the overall scheme of things we had control of our own budget and affairs.

      The property bubble wouldn’t have happened with a multi currency Europe. Not to the same extent anyway as borrowings would be needed from abroad to fuel part of it.

      We need out and now. I believe this will become apparent when Greece goes through it’s outing and picks up.

      This fiscal policy is a lie wrapped in an assumption based on a narrative that doesn’t ring through.

      Please vote NO
      and get your back bone back.

      Enda Kenny is afraid of Vincent B. What chance do we think he has or more importantly US of getting a good deal. None is the answer. He’s a spineless gombean.
      D

      Reply
    • Dave,

      I don’t know how old you are but my memories of the 80′s recession was massive austerity. That was before the Euro. Nobody has answered me where we’d get funding without a bailout from the troika.

      Reply
    • the pot of Gold that everybody thinks that will appear in the aftermath of a no vote!

      Reply
    • The main difference is the Troika tell us what we can spend the money on. They demanded the health (etc) cuts To vote yes to the compact will hand over that power in perpetuity to the ESM. Please before voteing read the ESM treaty especiealy articals 8 9 and 32. And remember the IMF said they would fund another bailout if needed before Noonan told them to say nothing about Ireland without clearing it with him first.

      Reply
  • No mention of the fact voting yes means huge austerity as well, we have to pay money in to the ESM also they talk about balanced budgets so we have to keep to the % rule or else we will be penalised, also the ESM can look for any amount of money and we have 7 days to pay so which ever way you look we are facing more cuts only with a yes vote we write it in to law and sign up to austerity for many years to come. It’s a bad treaty and many parts are not set in stone yet!

    Reply
    • Schools, hospitals, social welfare recipients etc. will need 36bn of funding in 2014-15.

      So if we vote no, where would you get 36bn of cuts?

      Reply
    • Well Darren, if our incompetent government decided to finally speak for their own people they would have not asked for the blackmail clause or even if you believe their lies that they never asked for it they could have at least asked for it to be removed, they could have even asked for some sort of relief on the debts imposed on us or even asked that this debt not be included in the overall figures and making the inevitable austerity which will arise regardless of what way the vote goes….but did they? No they didn’t, they agreed with every threat, point blank refusal to help alleviate the unfair burden the EU/ECB/FF foisted upon us.
      Incompetent isn’t the word – cowards is more apt and f**k this bulls**t of always being the good Europeans, where has it got us?
      Our self serving politicians and their constant subservience has reinforced us a the country who will take everything thrown at us by the great unelected, unanswerable elite in Brussels, we are the whipping boys, the kid in the classroom who will do everything asked of them and what do we get in return? – a F***ing gun put to our head and threatened to continue playing the good European or they will f**k our country up in ways we couldn’t imagine.
      Enough of this bull***t, vote NO…….. I will not allow the vote that many many true patriots sacrificed themselves for be subjected to threats and mind games and held hostage to financial terrorism.
      NO!

      Reply
  • It would be idiotic and disrespectful to our ancestors and descendants to write into our constitution a clause which will enslave us to a criminal ponzi scheme. The original European dream as set out in the Maastricht treaty is being summarily destroyed by European cleptocrats who are stealing from electorates, hand over fist, so that they can finance criminally negligent banks and the gamblers running them. How can we vote debenture slavery into our constitution? I’m voting No.

    Reply
  • More scare tactics from the ‘yes’ side, thats all they have, hence the blackmail clause.

    Whatever Dannys weak reckoning about the POSSIBILITY of a no vote causing greater austerity, a ‘yes’ vote will DEFINITELY cause an additional €6 Billion in austerity measures to meet the 2015 target set in the fiscal compact, plus additional cuts year on year under the 1/20th rule also contained in the treaty.

    No mention of that in his article, funny enough.

    Reply
    • 36bn funding needed in 2014-15. Where do we get that from, TTL?

      Which hospitals would you close? Which old folks homes would you merge together? Which teachers would you sack?

      Scare tactics? You started it.

      Reply
    • Darren, are you honestly contending that the Eurozone and ECB are going to put the €6 Trillion euro project in jeopardy rather than extend additional funds to the one country that has obediently meeting its commitments under the program? They just gave greece a huge debt writeoff and additional funding that they know they’ll never be able to pay back. Are you REALLY saying that the ECB will bring down the house of cards rather than give more funding to the star pupil country, a large chunk of which is going back to their banks anyways.

      Are you really claiming that darren??

      Reply
    • I think Darren is planted by Fine Gael on a commission, repeat and rehash the same, doom party line and you’ll brainwash at least a few sheep. Fair play duit vote no!

      Reply
    • TTL,
      I’m saying that at VERY BEST they’ll give us the money on the same conditions as if we’d voted yes. So why not just vote yes? SF is arguing for us to vote no and then ask for the money anyway.

      Reply
    • Why not ‘just vote yes’??

      The fines

      The extra 6 billion in cuts in 2015

      The 1/20th rule enshrining 20 years of extra austerity measures in our constitution.

      Acknowledging it’s ok to blackmail us

      The threats (not just from people like you, from the people whos banks we saved)

      That enough for you?

      Reply
    • Add it all up.
      Don’t include the “6bn cuts”. I have figures showing it’ll be zero.
      Does it equal 36bn? Not one hundredth of it.

      Reply
    • No, you have an ‘opinion’ showing it to be zero. I have the Department of Finance Figures and the terms of the treaty.

      Reply
  • Considering the ibes stance on Lisbon, i c’ant think of a better reason to reject the fiscal compact. And as a business owner, neither ibec or the sme approached me and asked my opinion. Looks like Danny boy is part of the self preservation society..

    Reply
  • Cormac F 12/05/12 #

    Angela Merkel hasnt ratified the treaty yet and has postponed it until after the Irish Referendum. This is because with Hollande against the fiscal compact Ireland and Greece will be the deciding factors. If greece vote as poles are indicating that they will vote for Syrzia and Tsipras at the helm. And the Irish electorate vote no the there will not be democratic support behind the treaty of two countries it will affect most and also the 2nd largest economy in the EEA then it will not be brought in. The anti treaty parties in the dutch parliment are also poling around 45% at the moment so if the dutch also cancel then its completely off.
    For Ireland to have a hope of relieveing of the bank debt and having capital to invest vote NO

    Reply
  • Propaganda! We are a more educated and interested public today. At long last people are not acting like sheep and taking those lovely European bosses at their word. Debt forgiveness is the priority. Austerity will be severe as soon as the icb fires up interest rates. Then we’ll know all about it. Vote no!

    Reply
  • See the Irish Times editorial below.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0512/1224315982060.html

    “Party leader Gerry Adams blithely insists that, in the event of a No vote, Ireland will be given vital funding by those countries that support the fiscal discipline of the treaty. The proposition is as flawed and disingenuous as his party’s selective use of comments made by prominent economists during the referendum campaign. Encouraging Irish voters to follow the example of Greece threatens economic and political chaos.”

    1. Could some no campaigner please explain this to me? If we reject the treaty, they say we should seek to access the ESM funds anyway if we can’t borrow on the open market. So what’s the point of voting no? Surely, at the VERY BEST (unlikely!), we’ll get the money on the same terms as if we’d voted yes. So why not just vote yes?

    2. Why, if Irish people vote no to accessing ESM funds, would the no side even contemplate ignoring that vote and seek to access them anyway?

    Reply
  • Maybe people should read the treaty booklet that was sent out on tuesday..

    Reply
  • Sounds like the smart choice is to vote Yes.

    Reply
    • Why, because the spokesman for the wealthy who are actually getting wealthier while ordinary people have gone to the poorhouse says so? If dannys so concerned about our balance sheet, why isn’t he calling for a third rate of tax on high earners? Possibly because every member of IBEC would have to put their hands in their pockets??

      Reply
  • This comment disappeared first time around. The no side still haven’t explained how we fund hospitals, schools etc. if we vote no and are shut out of the money markets and so can’t borrow.

    Reply
    • Read the next article “treaty is risky..” for more info on how we could access funds. We won’t be left out of markets.. IF (and it’s only IF) we need another bailout…

      Reply
    • Ah….the IMF canard.

      The IMF isn’t really an option. We’re way over our overdraught limit already. The only reason we got such massive amounts from them is because the EU/EC were on board as a backstop.

      As the man says, WE CAN APPLY. We’ll get SFA if anything.

      http://karlwhelan.com/blog/?p=386

      Reply
    • Think of it like this, Ireland is one of three countries that are literally holding the European banking system together. If Ireland, Portugal or Greece were to default then that would mean an economic nightmare throughout Europe. If we vote no and are locked out of both the markets and the ESM then we default, and you can be guaranteed we’d be taking all of Europe with us.

      So can the yes side please explain why Europe would be so petty as to let the European economy collapse because we said no?

      Reply
    • So you say we should seek to access the ESM funds anyway if we can’t borrow on the open market. So what’s the point of voting no? Surely, at the VERY BEST (unlikely!), we’ll get the money on the same terms as if we’d voted yes. So why not just vote yes?

      Reply
    • Another one, Jason.

      Why, if Irish people vote no to accessing ESM funds, would the you even contemplate ignoring that vote and seek to access them anyway?

      The Greeks and Portuguese have ratified this already.

      Reply
    • Darren why change our constitution? why give more power to unelected technocrats? Why hold a ref when even Germany haven’t ratified it yet, when France are renegotiating and Spain are in the process of needing a bailout and Greece are looking increasingly likely to leave? Why won’t our taoiseach go on national TV to debate this? Why not defer it? It is falling apart before its even begun.

      Reply
    • The Greek and Portuguese government has ratified it!! Not the people !

      We are the only european country to have a direct say! And we are saying no. And I will bet you a troika, ESM, IMF and the markets that if Greece, Portugal and other European countries has an option to vote and say…… That would say NO too. On yet bike…….

      Reply
    • Darren, have you not being following these stories relating to the treaty. Waving the manufactured blackmail around isn’t working.

      Are you a member of fine gael?

      Reply
    • Folks, I’m in a few debates on different forums so I’ll answer when someone replies to the issue above with hard details.

      This one:
      The no side still haven’t explained how we fund hospitals, schools etc. if we vote no and are shut out of the money markets and so can’t borrow.

      Reply
    • tax the wealthy they are the ones with the money

      Reply
    • So your happy to wave the blackmail and threats around your party manufactured with european politicians in order to coerce a yes vote darren?

      Reply
    • Your not debating much here Daren. Looks like you have the wrong idea of a debate (just like Edna) !

      Reply
    • Darren…you obviously didnt read my comment on the other thread….Where will the money come from? A more equal tax system in this country for a start….This question is P&*^ng me off (your definately a FG er) thats all FG have been spouting…where will the money come from?
      So my question right back is….if a yes vote goes through and the ESM is set up in July where is the €11 billion coming from to be part of it??????? Coz thats only the beginning of what it will cost this country to be part of something that will eventually see this country as a ‘company store’ in years to come if not already!!!!

      Reply
    • Sorry that last sentence should read: This country caught up in a ‘Company Store’ system

      Reply
    • Darren Gibney. You are useing false argument. the “What happens if we are shut out of everything?” ploy is great because the only answer is “we can do nothing “and that helps spread the fear. But it is baseless in as far there is no evidence that we will be shut out of anything. If you have any valid and inteligent questions or comments that help move the debate on, I would love to hear them.

      Reply
  • THE “BLACKMAIL” CLAUSE?

    I totally agree with Sinn Féin. If we’re lending money to, for example, Greece, we should seek no guarantees, no promises of budgetary discipline, none whatsoever. How dare we? It’s only Irish taxpayers’ money, innit? We’s bound to get it back…..

    #Sarcasm

    Reply
    • Darren the ECB printed 1 TRILLION euro’s after christmas !!! where’s that money gone ???

      Reply
    • Good question, actually! It’s gone to the banks and they’re using a lot of it to rebalance their books. It’s helped in part to lower Irish borrowing costs. Banks bought Irish government bonds.

      Reply
    • And why did the banks get it?? Why wasn’t that money divided among every euro citize’sn to help them balance their books !!

      Reply
    • Wait a second darren, we’re in a program so the borrowing costs you mention is irrelevant unless you’re contending we’ll be going back to the markets when the programs over, in which case access to the ESM, your only argument for a yes vote, won’t be necessary.

      Get snookered much??

      C’mon darren, this is fairly basic stuff

      Reply
    • One of the reasons Irish borrowing costs have come down is the assumption that we’ll have the ESM as a back up in case we get into difficulties with post-program paybacks.

      Lately, we’re looking a little uncertain on voting yes so our borrowing costs are going up again. If we vote yes, they’ll come down.

      Anyway, it’s not black and white. If our borrowing costs are high but sustainable, we could borrow half on the markets and the other half from the ESM.

      Questioned answered already with back up links. I’m not questioning the DoF figures, TTL. I’m questioning your 6Bn figure. Come on, step up to the mark.Produce the goods. You’re actually letting down the no side here.

      Reply
    • I’ve been away for over a week. Reading the comments here, it’s kind of bizarre. Same arguments, different people. That goes for both sides, heh heh.

      TTL is the only old face.

      Reply
  • Poor people don’t crested jobs… We are all employed by rich people or if you’re fortunate enough, the state. Yet many here against big business. You’d have us all working on collective farms. Sinn Feins vision of Ireland is of everyone being equally poor with no ambition. No thanks…

    Reply
  • eamonn 12/05/12 #

    We have to vote yes. We are a small Island Nation and the sooner that people realise this and face up to reality the better. The Ostrich approach will not work.

    Reply
  • neube2b 14/05/12 #

    No no no

    Reply
  • Sudhir Lal Sat, 1:39 PM #

    I was going through the same problem few months back , then i consulted credit sudhaar ,they helped me in paying my debt and also counselled me in taking decisions to improve my credit score. I would suggest you to consult them once. You can contact them on 022-67886788 or can visit their websites at http://www.credit sudhaar.com

    Reply
  • “Over the coming years Ireland will need to borrow billions to keep the country running. This money will we spent on health, education and welfare” The billions we will be repaying that we used to bail out the bondholders doesn’t seem to be mentioned here.

    Reply
  • More on “borrowing” from the IMF if we vote no. It might give us a tiny amount of money but it’s already tapping the likes of China, India, Brazil to prop up Europe.

    DO YE SERIOUSLY THINK THAT THE HUGE MASSES OF POOR PEOPLE IN THOSE COUNTRIES WILL WANT TO SEE THEIR GOVERNMENT PROPPING UP THE RICH IRISH WHO JUST SAID NO TO EUROPEAN LOANS?

    Read this:
    http://karlwhelan.com/blog/?p=386

    Reply
    • Seeing as though you like quoting economists…….

      Constantin Gurgdiev; “If Ireland was locked out of the ESM and also the IMF, it would default. That means it would be defaulting on its current IMF loans. That would be a big no-no for the IMF. It is inconceivable that the IMF would not extend the current programme.”

      Reply
  • Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted..are we for business or workers?
    IBEC and the IDA have been a front for years in exploiting workers and destroying unions.Ireland Inc has been a tax scam for years sorry if this is blasphemous to some.If you trust politicians,business “leaders” and faceless bureaucrats to shape society vote yes.
    To start a dialogue about a fundamental shift away from this greed and excess vote No.Ireland has infinite potential from forestry,farming and fishing to oil/gas and technology.Creating a sustainable green influenced ecomomy and export sector is one solution.Another is to re-energise the Irish farming community and co-op movement that has been criminally let fall apart in favour of big agri business like Kerry Group etc..

    Reply

Add New Comment