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Dublin: 13 °C Wednesday 22 May, 2013

Referendum Commission responds to MEP’s complaint over booklet

Socialist MEP Paul Murphy had made a complaint to the Commission over claims in its referendum guide about Ireland’s access to European Stability Mechanism funding if Ireland votes No.

Image: Sam Boal / Photocall Ireland

THE CHAIRMAN OF the Referendum Commission has responded to a complaint about its booklet for the upcoming Fiscal Compact referendum this evening, confirming that the European Security Mechanism (ESM) is “not the subject” of the upcoming vote.

In a letter by Socialist MEP Paul Murphy released this evening, Kevnin Feeney said today that the Commission “did not seek to prejudge any future political decisions” by information contained in the guide.

Feeney was responding to a formal complaint made by Murphy to the Referendum Commission over claims in its referendum guide about Ireland’s access to European Stability Mechanism funding if Ireland votes No. Murphy said the Commission’s booklet gave the impression that if Ireland were to vote No to the treaty, any future bailouts cannot include funding from the ESM.

One part the booklet read: “from March 1st 2013, any future bail-out involving the use of funds from the European Stability Mechanism (ESM), will be given only to countries which have ratified and implemented this Treaty.”

Feeney wrote that “the section on the ‘Effect of Treaty on financial assistance/bail-out mechanisms’ describes what the Treaty states on the subject of access to the ESM,” adding:

The Referendum Commission has no role in explaining the ESM Treaty (as it is not before the people in a referendum) other than in the context of its interaction with the Fiscal Stability Treaty.
However, in order to avoid any possible public confusion between the various Treaties, it did want to make clear that the ESM is not the subject of this referendum.  The text makes it clear that the ESM Treaty is not yet in place as it states that “The ESM is the permanent EU bail-out mechanism which is expected to be established by July 2012.

Feeney repeated a statement made at a press conference, held yesterday, in which he explained that Ireland” could have vetoed the amendment to Article 136 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU but did not do so” and that this amendment could come into effect only if it was ratified by both the Dáil and Seanad.

Read the Revenue Commissioner’s full letter>

Read: MEP disputes Referendum Commission’s claim on ESM veto

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Comments (46 Comments)

  • Thanks for that… All sorted now… In true public service fashion… CLEAR AS MUD!!!

    Just answer the question!!!!

    Reply
  • So if we vote no we might not get access to something that does not yet exist. Is it just me or does this treaty get more questionable every day. Vote no.

    Reply
  • The Commissions response is that the ESM “is EXPECTED to be established by 2012″.
    Expected by who exactly? Government politicians? Opposition politicians? EU citizens?

    The Commission has got itself caught in a twist, and is digging deeper.

    Reply
  • HOW did that impression of the ESM and access get into the booklet in the first place? Sloppy intentional misinformation. Independent body my ass. Good bye Feeney, You are the weakest link.

    Reply
  • Heard th ‘impartial’ chairman on the radio yesterday (newstalk of course) touting the same tactic as FFG, revolving the whole conversation around access to the ESM. Impartial my left one……

    Reply
  • We have signed up to a bailout program and are funded till 2014 and up till now our government has told us how wonderful they are doing, we won’t need another bailout we will get back to the bond markets !!!!! Now we are being asked to vote yes for that just in case we do need another bail out. What about the other parts of the treaty like all countries keeping budget deficits to 3% of GDP and if you can’t you will be severely penalized. Ireland will not be able to get it Books in order so won’t that mean more Austerity and harsher budgets a head if we vote yes

    Reply
    • Niamh: As you say, we are signed up to the bailout program and are funded up to 2014. The Fiscal Compact doesn’t affect us until after we exit the bailout program. According to the Memorandum of Understanding, we must reduce our general government deficit to 3% by 2015. Thereafter, we have to comply with the fiscal compact. That means we have to continue to reduce our general government deficit to zero or put it into surplus, just like the other 24 EU countries that have signed up to it. We have to reduce our general government debt by 1/20th every year until we reach a general government debt of 60% of GDP.

      Regarding the sanctions, these apply without discrimination to all countries regardless of their size. The European Court of Justice may apply a fine amounting to 0.1% of GDP of a particular country if it finds that that country still have not incorporated the fiscal compact, with its deficit & debt brakes and correction mechanism, into its constitution or equivalent level one year after it ratifies the fiscal compact.

      Reply
    • so Paul,
      4 quick questions if you will,

      1. how much in real money is this 1/20th every year amount to?
      2. And how many years will it take to bring it down to 60%?
      3. Based on current GDP levels, how much can we expect the fines to amount to in euros(approx)?
      4. In the event of another bailout, will this not effect our 60% ideal debt rate,
      thereby extending the period of debt reduction to 60%, and will we get fined every year
      that we will have more debt on the ‘books’?

      Thanks

      Reply
    • Joe,

      All of those answers depend on the size of our debt, our budget deficit and GDP which in turn depend on how much the economy will have grown which in itself depends on a range of factors – most of them external to Ireland.

      I could ask just as well ask you what cuts will be needed to education, health and social welfare if we vote no and run into a massive shortfall in day to day funding.

      You don’t know? That’s fine.

      Reply
    • Darren,
      i think Paul is capable of answering for himself.

      I am on a mission to get approximate figures on this based on REALISTIC
      levels of forecasted growth.

      Does it help to thrown out percentages and fractions if we can’t have any idea of how
      it may apply to us?

      To answer your question,
      at least i can be honest about it,
      i’m not an economist,
      and I do not know…..
      but neither am i PRETENDING to know.

      What are we looking at eh?
      If you can’t answer, why don’t you leave the space clear for Paul
      to come back. He might actually KNOW something.

      Reply
    • Joe,

      Wow. Get stroppy if you want. Others will see that I’ve given you an honest answer and I’m not pretending anything.

      Reply
    • Man, you Yes men are funny today.
      Throw a strop? Far from it, I’m having a laugh here,
      so, if for nothing else,
      thanks for that!

      Curiosity gets the better of me.
      A question for you if you will permit.
      Do you normally do that? Wander into a conversation,
      with nothing to say, other than to add “I don’t know”…..
      I’m sensing a bright future political for you here in Ireland :-)

      Reply
    • Joe, this is a discussion board.

      Now….whisht.

      Reply
    • Good man,
      another Phil Hogan in the making! :-)

      Reply
    • I gave you a thumbs up for that.

      Reply
  • I’ve a better question – how was it allowed to be re-branded the ‘stability treaty’???? GEtting more and more like an Orwell story every day!!

    Reply
    • It’s always been called that. Because some have called it something else, doesn’t mean they were or are right.
      Have a read of it yourself. The very first line.

      http://www.consilium.europa.eu/media/1478399/07_-_tscg.en12.pdf

      Reply
    • It’s not called the ‘stability treaty’ there either, have a read again…stability, coordination and governance…bla bla bla…It still has nothing to do with stability and everything to do with austerity. Dress it up how you like it’s there to make Europe more ‘competitive’ and that means…The rich keep the wealth and the poor work for pennies. It doesn’t sort out anything. Have a read: http://cormaclucey.blogspot.com/2012/04/vote-no-to-fiscal-compact-referendum.html
      Also the fact the the ETUC are opposing this treaty and they have supported both the Lisbon treaties..this is a very important treaty and I don’t think people who are advocating a YEs vote really understand what it actually is.
      The argument that we won’t be able to get funding is absolute nonsense and we won’t be thrown from Europe either…There’s no stability in making the kind of adjustment that this treaty ushers in and there’s no sense in outlawing the only real alternative action which is government stimulus, investors are hoarding the wealth so unless progressive taxation and a stimulus is employed we’ll be back to the 50′s in this country, actually, no generation will have witnessed the poverty and deprivation that this country will witness if we vote for this insanity.

      Reply
  • The E.U fisting treaty more like.

    Reply
  • Reg 04/05/12 #

    Has Paul Murphy MEP ever been elected by the people to anything?

    Reply
    • Don’t understand your question Reg..

      Reply
    • Reg 04/05/12 #

      Well at the momement he’s comrade Joe’s sub to the EU parliament. Has he ever been elected to anything?

      Reply
    • LOL! Reg,
      thats one of the big reasons ill be voting NO,

      dont want some langer from outside this country
      who we havent voted on
      having MORE decision making power on the fate of irish people.

      So, you’ll be voting NO now, good man!

      Reply
    • Eh Reg I assume you are aware that all political parties in Ireland can do that? They nominate ‘subs’ at the time of their election. Great to see you have such knowledge of how things work in Europe. I’d guess you will be voting yes.

      Reply
    • When people voted for Joe Higgins they were also voting for his list of alternates. This is made perfectly clear in the rules governing the elections to the European Parliament. You may not like it, you may not have known about it, but it doesn’t change the fact that under the rules of that vote he WAS elected. He’s not the only MEP to be co-opted, Labour have done the same.

      Reply
    • Reg 04/05/12 #

      Actually I have no real problem with the system, saves wasting money on by elections to the EU parliament. But has he ever stood for election for the Dail or local council?

      Reply
  • mcbab 05/05/12 #

    Oh the no voters are getting very touchy! After Mary loo being taken down by Joan Burton yesterday on the pat Kenny show and then RBB stumbling and spluttering their game is up!

    Reply
    • Don’t count your chickens mcbab!! We’ll see when all is counted!
      I think everyone who is a sensible ordinary member of this country and NOT an affiliate of a political party will vote no!

      As you can see the overwhelming majority of the NO side on this site are the ordinary people, the majority of the yes camp on this website are party members/ wannabe’s/advisors who spam under different handles!!

      We will see mcbab, when the votes are counted! We will see….

      Reply
    • mcbab 05/05/12 #

      Oh Ryan I think you may have that wrong! I, for one, have no affiliation to any party but like to think for myself. Some of the self confessed ULA and sinn fein people on this site seem to be obsessed with putting labels on everyone for some reason.Indeed they get quite het up and neurotic with their claims. Maybe the notion of thinking for themselves doesn’t work for them.

      Reply
    • Ryan,
      he has no affiliation of any party…
      thanks for a good saturday morning giggle! :-)

      Reply
    • mcbab 05/05/12 #

      Joseph McGee. You have just made my point about wanting to label! How is your neurosis this morning

      Reply
    • Gave u a thumbs up there!
      My neurosis is doing fine thanks!
      How’s Enda this morning? Or it Eamon?
      Give him a peck on the cheek for me will ya :-)

      Reply
    • mcbab 05/05/12 #

      Joseph, Joseph , Joseph. Listen carefully. I am not affiliated to any political party. What part of that do you not understand ? Is it beyond your imagination that people think for themselves? After all we do not live in a communist country, although you may aspire to that.

      Reply
    • mcbababababa,

      Sorry what did you say again?
      I’m too busy here studying the glorious success of collectivization
      and the Chinese cultural revolution :-)

      That’s a peck on the face cheeks now ya hear :-)

      Reply
    • Good point further on about labels and boxes. Seems the standard of political debate is to first label you opponent and then attack them rather than challenge their opinion.

      Reply
  • The fact is that the Judge was wrong to argue that it is too late to veto the Treaty. It is not too late until it has been ratified and he admits that it is for the Oirerachtas to decide whether to do so.

    Reply
  • mcbab 05/05/12 #

    Darren. I think joe is beginning to realise that he is bailing out a sinking ship. He probably needs a good breakfast to put him in a better mood. Must be starving.

    Reply
    • Listen ya great big lovable dope
      I sank years ago. I’ve revived meself and had more comebacks
      than Mohammad Ali

      I have no fears about sinking again :-)

      Tho, i think you might be right about a good breakfast!
      Ciao ciao for now darlings, see yis after brekkie

      Reply

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