mart-n, we will see and you will be proven wrong.

I would like to see the persecuted “untouchables ” take the establishment of India to the court of human rights for the apartheid system they so vigoursly hold unto.
They make the Old south Africa look like a socialist utopia

Oh ffs John, this is about our country, our health system and our values, it is irrelevant where the man and his wife are from!

My exact sentiments.

There is no evidence or indication whatsoever that there was any clinical negligence or medical malpractice.

The Kitty Holland articles and the time line published last Saturday, although not legal evidence, point towards a legal obstacle to appropriate clinical intervention.

The HIQA investigation is an abuse of process; it is not legally suited to the nature of the inquiry required. Proven is right not to support this misconceived inquiry, which is not a direct inquiry into his wife’s death.

Sorry, my phone spellcheck converted “Praveen” to proven. I typed Praveen.

They do that a lot, I thought this was a free public forum? My opinion got me banned for a few months and after numerous attemtps to find out why, I am still in the dark as I could not see where I had breached guidelines.

@ Gerard it’s not free speech here, none of them are. :-(

Jesus Niall stop talking sense! it’ll upset the bandwagon. It seems we have no time for facts or the patience to wait for them.

What bandwagon? On what planet is people looking for a public enquiry to reveal facts of the case, not looking to wait on facts!

So what if she was? They still kept her there for days even though her condition meant increased risk of infection.

Diarmaid, while some of us are waiting on the result of the investigations it’s clear to see from the number of comments and accompanying green thumbs, that there is quite the bandwagon of people convinced without a shred of proof that a termination would have saved Savitas life. There’s a large number of people that’ll have some egg of their face should the report say anything other than death due to failure to terminate.

I think you’ll find you’re on your own bandwagon assuming people’s opinions because of thumbs!

aren’t the thumbs to indicate agreement / disagreement with a comment ergo establishing approval / disapproval with an opinion?

feel free to correct me if I’m wrong

Just a note – if Savita had blood poisoning on admission it is unlikely she would have been made wait for the miscarriage to carry through.

@ James Connelly I suspect if something like Niall B. is suggesting was true then it would make the current situation even worse?

bloodles poisoning? before arriving at the hospital and having it hanging for few days before it attacked? i guess that is what u are trying to say? Just shows you need to read a bit more information and broaden your knowledge.

Hi Kerry, if it does turn out to be true it makes this case infinitely worse, it would prove to be a case of gross negligence in the extreme on the part of the doctors and nurses involved.
Septicaemia (not to be confused with septic shock), is something which we as nurses battle against every day. I would hope that In Ms Praveen’s case basic tests were run to ensure that while Ms Praveen was miscarrying, she was otherwise healthy (until the point that her situation became an emergency).

What I am trying to say Gamma, is that you don’t know peoples opinions and equating a few thumbs up to a bandwagon is juvenile, especially when peoples motives are so decent and honourable!

If that was the case she should be given every help possible to treat the condition the moment she put her foot in that hospital!!!!

Start here…you’ll need to follow the references particularly those relating to sepsis.

Centre for Maternal and Child Enquiries (CMACE). Saving Mothers? Lives: reviewing maternal deaths to make motherhood safer: 2006?08. The Eighth Report on Confidential Enquiries into Maternal Deaths in the United Kingdom. BJOG 2011; 118 (Suppl. 1): 1?203

Ya it’s not like he’s lost a family member in dubious circumstances or anything with records not taken of certain conversations.

I’m pretty sure that the European convention gives him (or any of us for that matter) that very right!

He has every right to use, say, or do whatever it takes to get something done. It’s a pity Irish people are not more passionate about injustice or unfairness. People should be making demands, have expectations, and if necessary make ultimatums of the State, to make lives better.

Diarmad, David and Gamma, all well expressed. Unchallenged authority can abuse its powers. Rights are useless if not asserted.

There is a very real risk that Ireland will pay more legal costs in defending the State than on a focused public inquiry as asked for by Praveen.

The government will hope that the Commission will take its time and that it might even find that not all domestic rights had been exhausted.

For sure, Praveen has touched on a raw nerve. We don’t get excited if Irish citizens threaten or make complaints to Europe.

I wonder if shame and fear of truth as well as anxiety over non Irish persons complaining is combining to upset Praveen’s opponents and critics.

The fact alone that both Mrs and Mr Praveen were contributing members to this society affords this man the right to demand ultimatums such as this of us. They both have contributed in ways that already exceed many Irish people’s contribution, they should absolutely be allowed issue such ultimatums.

It’s virtually impossible to remove notes from a patients file as they are written in continuity form both sides of paper and all medical professionals write on the same maternity notes. They are legal documents and lectures are given on how to write its all very above board they are audited frequently and everyone prints and signs their name I think we need to cut the staff some slack and support them as a previous commenter said this man may have been ill advised and there could be a lot of egg on a lot of faces.

And what is your point?

@Cliodhna I am well aware of the legality and procedure of taking notes, however, this grieving man has insisted that notes were not taken when he and his dead wife requested a termination. Now unless you’re accusing him of being a liar, i fail to see your point. I merely think we should be humane enough to believe his story as much as anyone elses. I am not proposing a witch hunt on the staff, that’s a ridiculous comment, I merely want answers for this grieving man to be produced in a calm and proactive way!

The requests for termination were not recorded initially however requests were recorded at later stages. Requests for treatment are not usually recorded, and when they are, it is only because that treatment is likely to be an avenue about to be taken by the doctors.

Have you seen the notes James?

Hi Diarmuid, no I haven’t, however basing my answer on reports I have read and heard and on my experience the situation would appear to be as I outlined above. Rgds, J.

Oh right, so while you are more aware of procedures etc granted, you are just as in the dark as the rest of us cause for a second there I thought you were correcting me with facts!

Well yes obviously, but there are reports that while initial requests for termination were not recorded, later ones were. This isn’t me making presumptions – it’s on what I have read and heard through the news etc. as to my presumption as to why it happened – well that’s usually the case, I was only informing you of what would be a) general knowledge, and b) what usually happens in these cases.
Notes weren’t removed, to do so is a criminal offence on two counts – theft and perverting the course of justice, and would have serious ramifications for the culprit involved were that the case.
Hope this helps Diarmuid.

You seem to be slightly confused, you seem to think I said notes were removed, I didn’t! I said notes were not taken!

Article 2 (which still permits the death penalty in Europe) states that no-one shall be “intentionally” deprived of their right to life. Where’s the intent?

Niall, read the jurisprudence of the European Court of Human Rights on the 5 requirements into wrongful deaths or suspected wrongful deaths. This jurisprudence is accessible online and usefully summarised by the ICCL

And if the investigation discovers accidental death the wouldn’t have been prevented by a termination? I just wonder if he’ll cooperate with this investigation.

@ Bernie Staunton-Kavanagh:
you say – “Seems that taking their money is the only way to make them see the error of their ways.”
it would be YOUR money, not theirs, that would be taken, in the event of “error of their ways.”, being proven

that’s of course assuming you’re a contrubutor, rather than a burden on the state

who is their money ? don’t you mean tax payers money !

Would prefer to see my money going on something like this then to unsecured bond holders michael o’toole. Question of priorities I guess. Though I’ve not seen a statement from the family that they are looking for damages only seen statements that they are rather for an independent inquiry.

you might prefer it, Kerry Blake,
but the reality would be that your money would go “on something like this”, in addition “to unsecured bond holders”,

& like you – ” I’ve not seen a statement from the family that they are looking for damages”.

That actually could well be the case. But doesn’t change the fact that our abortion laws are hopelessly out if step with reality.

Can I just say, it’s a little bit unnerving when you see comments insinuating that this man is only in it for the money. He has lost his entire family so before you post a comment that is filled with hate or xenophobia please, please, please think of how you might feel were it you in a similar situation.
Does this man deserve an investigation which he can have confidence in? Absolutely.
Should the current investigations be taking place? Oh God yes, we need answers quickly so that we can right whatever wrongs are in our system, and treat people to the fullness of our ability. Let a public enquiry take place, but do not let such an enquiry delay us righting our system.
Should this man be looking for compensation? Yes, yes, damn yes. He absolutely should be because everyone will agree, whether at the hands of a law, or a doctor, Ms Praveen Halappanavar is dead, and this in the day of modern medicine should not be the case.
Should we as taxpayers be funding such investigations or compensation? Absolutely. The cost of such things should most certainly be borne by the Irish people, it should be a sign of our support for Mr Praveen and the two families involved.
Do we still need to look at termination even if it is found has nothing to do with this case? Regardless of what results are we must move to rectify the anomaly that currently exists.

Start here with report titled below…I agree I am not an expert…however I submit that it is a bit early to be heading to the court of human rights.

Centre for Maternal and Child Enquiries (CMACE). Saving Mothers? Lives: reviewing maternal deaths to make motherhood safer: 2006?08. The Eighth Report on Confidential Enquiries into Maternal Deaths in the United Kingdom. BJOG 2011; 118 (Suppl. 1): 1?203

Hi Niall, if I may interject with a few points; once septicaemia takes over the treatment becomes a race against it. Septicaemia doesn’t wait or hang around to attack, it gets down to business rather quickly, that is why if you are in ICU your cannula or dressings will be changed a lot more often than they otherwise might be were you on a general ward.

@james. Does septicaemia have much of an ‘incubation period’ before symtoms show? I find it hard to accept nialls argument that savita already had septicaemia on arriving on hospital- surely as you say the staff would have treated it straight away. The only way I can see that it would escape notice initially is if it were asymptomatic on arrival?

Sorry, this is digressing from the article.

Apologies James. You have already answered this question in that you said ‘it doesn’t wait around to attack’.

Hi Irene, incubation period differs from case to case depending on severity of the infection. It doesn’t hang around though, certainly not for 2-3 days – hours at most. Once diagnosis of septicaemia is made antibiotics absolutely must be administered within the first hour, the patient is immediately moved to ICU, and monitored there.
Doctors and nurses are trained to identify septicaemia as the period for treatment (with minimal side effects remaining post infection) passes very quickly, before it moves onto septic shock and MOF.
I said above, if it is found that Ms Praveen had septicaemia upon admission and if this is what caused Ms Praveens untimely death, it demonstrates a gross negligence on behalf of the staff to the point that it would be a criminal offence.

@james

Thanks for the insight. It is highly important to have the views of those, such as yourself, who are trained in this area.

No problem Irene, any questions, holler ‘em out!

A really good question Peter!

Great question Peter and a echoing silence after it.

@ Peter Richardson
doesn’t appear to me that too many here “oppose Praveen’s decision”
as for myself – i’ve never read the European Convention of Human Rights – i imagne very few, if any here, have.
so i can’t give you a straight answer to your question.

but i do think that Parveen was wrong, & badly advised in issueing an ultimatum.
i think he should have cooperated with the existing inquiries.
now, i can understand why he might be bitter – he has good reason for that, but his advisors/supporters have no such excuse.

i know you won’t agree with me on this – but the pro-abortion lobby has taken over this case.
i never thought i would say this – but i’m inclined to support the FG/Labour stance, to an extent,
but i’m still suspicious of them – very suspicious.

Ah ya, someone should have thought of that before! why aren’t we basing our moralistic and political principles around the states, god that’s ingenious!

It was an example. I could have easily have said China, Russia, anywhere.

I can’t imagine any other country in the world where something like this could happen (oh, wait, I thought of one maybe – the Taliban-controlled part of Afghanistan)…

Oh china and Russia? Two other empires world renowned for their empathy and civil rights records. I think you’d find any country of comparable size, population, history and outlook would try their best in this situation.

yes, the US government would most likely settle with your hypothetical Irish citizen, which will not bring their loved one back, but offers financial compensation and is a backhanded way of assuming accountability.

I would hope no government of any country would be agreeable to being told what to do by one citizen of another.

John Lawless I guess no one told you the members of the troika are not Irish citizens? Seems to me the Irish government are quite used to doing what they are told by others.

Equating one citizen to a governing body is not feasible.

@ John, I can see no reason why not any State would be immune. The legal impediment is that the USA has not ratified the European Convention and the legal grounds would be difficult to establish.

By the way, law students from Galway have been actively and effectively involved in cases to release prisoners from Guantanamo and in the Innocence Project.

I know many Irish lawyers who have with success, on their own and in collaboration with US lawyers have vindicated the rights of Irish citizens in the USA.

@ John Lawless, it is not a citizen who will tell the Irish State what to do. It will be the European Court of Human Rights if the Commission admits the complaint. It disappoints me that for reasons of shabby expediency, the Irish State does not willingly, graciously and decisively give Praveen his rights under the European Convention.

Why do I think that the Government is cynically deciding to let this get lost in Europe for a while and leave this for a subsequent government? The reality is that the government is worried that a quick and decisive objective inquiry might expose the State to having to revisit Article 40.3.3. Politically speaking, this situation is dangerous for the Government and it wants to hold together long enough so as to see the imposed austerity programme to the bitter end.

Ah John, I haven’t seen the declaration of war from India, so what the hell are you on about. As any Nation does, in response to one of its own dying unnecessarily abroad, they are asking the RESPONSIBLE government to put actions in place to prevent totally preventable deaths of their citizens happening in the future. You really seem to have issues with a standard response from a foreign countries request for an investigation into something do serious, but hey, you probably think the BNP are the next best thing.

Agreed, how many women have to die until this legislation is passed? Whatever the results of the report it highlights an issue that needs to change, whatever your views are

Yeah, the Taliban are famous for observing due process, and not beheading people before they’ve been found guilty.

Anna, there is a sad truth in what you say, regretfully.

what a stupid comparison

@ Anna Larsen;
you’re correct Anna,
those taliban guys aren’t much into this nonsence of examining the evidence,
& considering it carefully, before comming to an innocent or guilty verdict.
ah sure, there’s no need at all, at all, for that kind of raiméis.

funny
i ask a simple question
i get 4 red thumbs
don’t understand why i get any thumbs,
but i thought i might get an answer to the question posed !!
seems that’s not how things work around here !!

Michael, please read the caption of each article. The first caption was about “may”. The second article was after the decision had been taken after the Irish Government failed to give even the courtesy of a reply to Praveen’s solicitor. The red thumbs may have been because it was not realised that you had genuinely failed to see the difference?

You did spot the difference, did you not?

thanks for your explanation, Peter
don;t know if you’re involved in some way with the ‘running’ of this site ?
anyway – i’m new to the site – don’t really know how it operates.
i msust admit that i regarded the thread titles as topics for discussion, rether than news items.
perhaps – that was my mistake.
anyway – thanks again, man

BTW – i disagree with most of what you post regarding the abortion debate, but you do present your views very well.
i expect that you have a legal background.

Michael, you are asking exactly the same questions as a FFG youth contributor on this site. Maybe you should contact him directly. He goes be the name of David Higgins.

@ Cal1 Mooney
what are you talking about ???

“David Higgins” ??

stop talking in parables
say what you want to say in English, or as Gaeilge.

Michael, if you don’t wish to read about this then don’t. It’s your free choice, that’s the beauty of a free world.

@ james Connolly
but i do “wish to read about this”
that’s why i’ve read the comments & indeed posted my own comments to several threads on this topic.
i didn’t understand why this thread was iniated after another almost identical thread had been iniated an hour & a half earlier.
unlike you – Peter was gracious & explained things to me, & i thanked him for doing so
what are you complaining about ??

Sue someone over using their right to freedom of speech?