It’s a matter of legal obligation on Ireland.

Life is a permanent learning exposure.
Mr. Halappanavar has learned very rapidly that Irish authorities cannott be trusted.
I am 100% behind him and hope that this matter goes to the European Court of Justice.

And then resign

Tom, how do you know that Praveen has any pro abortion agenda or any agenda other than to try to bring out the full facts of his late wife’s death? Care to share?

It was a pro choice group that set up the interviews for Praveen as reported on RTE TV (prime time) and interviews with the same groups. As they were last week they are probably still available on RTE Player.

Tom, that does not make Praveen pro-abortion.

Tom, that does not make Praven, pro-abortion, merely pro wife.

If he wanted all the facts to come out about his wifes death fine, but this man had refused to take part in any enquiry! Ignore him unless he cooperates with an enquiry. Its not nice to say but he’s looking for money

He’s obviously pro-choice. It has been so in India for 3 decades.
No one is pro-abortion. Such a view doesn’t exist.
Pro-choice is the honest term.

Praveen has the right to an independent, properly constituted form of inquiry with the right to cross-examine witnesses and the right to be legally represented. This is Guaranteed by the European Convention on Human Rights. The Irish Council for Civil Liberties has addressed this in an excellent letter of the 22nd November.

Praveen is right to assert his rights and I hope that the Government will eventually see sense.

The scope of verdict in a Coroner’s Court is extremely limited, say death by misadventure, it cannot adjudicate on culpability or address defective law as a contributor to the tragic loss of life.

Any competent lawyer would advise Praveen as Gerard O’Donnell solicitor as done to date. Thank goodness that Praveen is assertive and not a passive respecter of official authority in Ireland.

this ultimatum is too much…
especially as he has refused to cooperate and done his best to obstruct the inquiries currently ongoing.
Time to stop pammering this man and his personal campaign that has nothing to do with justice.
I expect our government to do the same.

The current proposed inquiries are entirely unsatisfactory because the HSE inquiry is a self investigation and the HIQA investigation is legally unsuited to such an individual inquiry. A proper statutory form of inquiry is necessary and appropriate. I would favour that irrespective of nationality, race or religion. Specifically, I would favour a statutory inquiry it was an Irish woman who had died.

It’s called a coroners inquest. Everyone who doesnt die of natural causes gets one.

@ Peter
There is no reason to call the current inquiries unsatisfactory just because Praveen Halappanavar has refused to cooperate and been an obstruction so far.
The coroner’s inquiry (a link for those interested in reading about it) is the most important inquiry and only from its findings can we know the path that needs to be followed.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/death/sudden_or_unexplained_death/coroners.html
Why has trust or lack of trust in our HSA come into this especially when there is no proof of malpractice? The inquiries have independent professionals engaged there is no logical reason to believe these won’t discover the facts.
The only reason I can see for escalating this to a full blown public inquiry is for political gain and pushing a campaign that should be run separately from this tragic unfortunate death.
We have been sensitive remorseful and respectful to this man and made allowances while the husband has being going through shock and grieving for his loss. But reality has to bite in this man has called the HSE, Galway hospital and the medical professions there into disrepute. Without proof of any wrong doing demands a public inquiry. Now threatens the government and the people of this state with the European courts. Even your suggestion although swifter and less cumbersome is still pampering demands of a man on a quest for changing abortion laws within this land.

Fully agree with you Tom. Wonder would the Indian government bow down to any demands from Ireland if situation reversed

Tom, the inquiries are unsatisfactory because they don’t satisfy the Convention. The HIQA inquiry is inappropriate and unsatisfactory because of Sections 8 and 9 of the Health Act, 2007. HIQA is legally empowered to address standards and is ill suited to the inquiry into the individual circumstances of Savita’s death. It may even be ultra vires.

@tom , who do you think you are , “without proof of any wrongdoing” this man wants a public enquiry , ,I’m sure the fact his wife is dead and he lived through the entire episode is as much “proof” as he needs to call for the inquiry o be independent , Reilly initially said that he would establish an enquiry that would stand up to world scrutiny and then appointed 3 hospital staff to the enquiry team , is it any wonder a person would prefer a public enquiry , and why do you suggest it’s for ” political” reasons when the guy was just living his life with no political aspirations when this tragedy struck , get off your high horse and leave your own politically shit stirring at home , this man lost his wife and is clearly determined to let the world see exactly what may have happened.

@ Dave
if there is a case for malpractice let it proceed from the coroner’s report but before presuming you’re on the moral high ground put what you’re saying in context. Praveen had already refused to cooperate with any inquiry that wasn’t the “full public inquiry” as demanded from his first of many interviews before any members was appointed to the inquiry. While I’m not a Reilly’s fan (who is) he did bow to criticism and replace the hospital staff with independent professionals very quickly to ensure it would be impartial. But how relevant is this when Praveen refused to cooperate and attempted to obstruct believing he had control of Savita medical records. I don’t have to exploit a tragic death or a political party to express my views. My interest is just the facts from both sides and not some interest group. I believe we have more than enough enquiries and inquests to do this without the media circus and views of pressure groups that a public inquiry would attract like a magnet.

@ Annie

The only reason its gets air time here is because our government is weak trying to appease everyone. India’s government would be too busy to give one case this much time and rightly so.

Bajingo!

Don’t forget to add the millions in fee’s the blood-sucking lawers will be able to demand. Say, who exactly do YOU work for, Mr. Richardson?

Belly up, I am retired. I disagree with excessive legal fees and excessive legal fees can be avoided by a defined and properly circumscribed inquiry, with tightly drafted Terms of Reference. A Commission of Investigation would avoid excessive fees. I have no financial interest in this matter except as a tax payer.

Peter
You keep referring to Mr Hallappanavar as Praveen. Are you acquainted with this man. Have you ever met him? Are you a friend or an advisor to the man?

Why would that matter Garry or do you object to people commenting on something if they might have a connection to the subject. Be it knowledge of law, concern as an Irish citizen or Praveen is easier to spell then Hallappanaver?

Gary, sorry for calling you Gary even though we have never met and I don’t advise you

. I use the name “Praveen” for short. I don’t know Praveen and I have never met him. It is perhaps over familiar and I can refer to him as Mr. Halappanavar, if you prefer.

Garry is trapped inside semanic lexicography mode, he thinks it’s ok to spout stuff as long as he spells big words right.

Garry is trapped inside semantic lexicography mode, he thinks it’s ok to spout stuff as long as he spells big words right.

The ultimatum has been give for legal reasons. Without the ultimatum, the Commission would likely not admit Praveen’s complaint. The solution is for the Government to comply with its legal obligations. It will likely not do so and that leaves Praveen with only one avenue to vindicate his rights.

Why should he be getting anything? The family never asked for a termination and she developed septisimia after the unfortunate miscarriage. The septisemia is the cause of her death. Mr Reilly should get a kick up the ass for even listening to this man.

The Irish Government can avoid a justified complaint to the Europeam Commission on Human Rights by acceding to Praveen’s legal entitlement.

I see no evidence of any big interest on the part of Praveen’s legal team.

The matter first comes before the Commission. The Commission can admit the complaint If it determines that the HSE and HIQA investigations are inadequate in form and procedure. I read the the ICCL letter and I favour its informed view.

You really think they will say that the two state bodies will not carry out a fair inquiry?? You really think that??

And to say his legal team don’t have any interest in a long, drawn out, costly court case just shows how little you know.

Belly Up, we’ll perhaps I know very little and your knowledge is superior to mine but My point is not about fairness but about meeting the Convention obligations which are well established. The HIQA inquiry is inappropriate and the HSE inquiry is not impartial and objective.

How little I know. I wish that I had more knowledge but I do my best.

I disagree. He has a legal entitlement under the European Convention on Human Rights to a proper form of inquiry. The only problem is that the processing of the complaint will take a very long time by which stage too much time will have elapsed to conduct a reliable inquiry. Praveen could end up with his legitimate entitlements frustrated but a finding or adjudication against Ireland for breach, not the first time.

Please tell us Peter where does it say that the proper form of such an inquiry is a public inquiry???

Peter
Justice delayed is justice denied! In this regard is the man not being poorly advised. The European Commission in Human Rights have set down no benchmarks for the type of Enquiry that must be carried out by signatory countries and could take a considerable length of time before they issue their findings.
The applicant will be bound by whatever decision is ultimately forthcoming and I believe that the three formal Enquiries established under Regulation and Law in Ireland could not be challenged when you consider that on is a sworn Court of Enquiry and the other is established under a Statutory Authority.

Garry, he has no legal remedy under domestic Irish law. The problem is that the forms of investigation being initiated do not meet the required standards under the European Convention Human Rights. Ireland either obeys the Convention, which we ratified, or we have to face another breach of the Convention.

The forms of inquiry will not be set aside but will be held as not meeting Praveen’s rights under the Convention. That is all. The Convention will not prescribe the specific form of investigation under Irish law but will not prevent the Court from a determination that Ireland has breached Praveen’s rights. He will have a moral victory even if it may be to late to get an early and fully effective inquiry.

The problem and the delay could be avoided by the doing the right thing but that is not something the State is noted for.

Seriously Peter where are these rights you are talking about?? You’ve failed to show where he has the right to a public inquiry. I will repeat what I have said before – there is no way the ECHR will rule that investigations by the HSE and HIQA are not satisfactory. This man’s legal team are taking him to the cleaners

@ Peter Richardson

you say “Garry, he has no legal remedy under domestic Irish law.”
no “legal remedy” for what ??

Jerry, the adviser is a respected solicitor named Gerard O’Donnell who is superbly representing Praveen. The Indian health service is irrelevant. This is a death in Ireland in an Irish hospital. I am pleased as an Irish man that at least Praveen in this horrendous tragedy has received high quality and competent legal advice. It is something we can justifiably hold our heads up over.

The Indian health system is one of the worst on the planet and I wonder on what grounds is his solicitor going to the European Court of human rights on.
The man has opted not to coperate with any organ of this state so we will just have to work with the evidence of all the hospital workers who were involved in the case . naturally they are going to be accused of collusion and all other forms of cover up by the same people

but jerry the man and women were living and working in ireland the indian health system has nothing to do with this case as it happened in ireland . i really do not like when people are saying what about the indian system what has that got to do with it the man and women choose to have her baby in ireland and if this was a irish women in a hospital in india we would be up in arms .people have the right to be disgusted . there is a lot of women and men around this country that are angry with this .i would never want to see this happening to any other women in our country . we should aim to give women the best possible care no matter what and if we can learn something from this case

The state of the Indian health service is irrelevant. We are addressing Ireland, the death of an Irish resident in Ireland. Sagitta and Praveen’s nationality has no relevance.

The basis of Praveen’s solicitors complaint is straightforward. It is breach by Ireland of the European Convention off Human Right, specifically as identified by the Irish Council for Civil Liberties. By the way, the Law Faculty in University College Galway has a world leading legal expertise in the area of international human rights. There is considerable expertise for Praveen’s solicitor to draw on.

I wish him very good luck and it is a pity that he has to give an ultimatum in order to vindicate his rights. It’s all very sad an unworthy of Ireland.

What connection does the Indian health system have to this case? Beyond the one established by your bigotry?

My point been that this man and his family have constantly rubbished our health system and our Doctor’s . Our Minister has met him and bent over backwards to help him.
He would not get this treatment in his own.country where they have one of the worst public health systems on the planet.
I do feel sorry for him as he has been very badly advised if he thinks that giving the Government ultimatums is going to work for him

One of the other things that annoy me is the amount of people on this thread who have made up fictional names to post comments .
If you do feel strongly enough you should at least have the Balls to let your name be published retired solicitor or not !

Jerry your comments are pretty disgusting. Your concern is not with what the actual complaint is but WHO is doing the complaining so that you can rubbish them. Is he too foreign to make a complaint? If he and his wife were from Tipperary would it make a difference? Would you rubbish hospitals in Tipperary and maintain that “it’s a bit rich coming from someone from there”? Where he comes from is of no relevance you spiteful individual. What if he was from some Scandinavian country with a tremendous health care system? Would he have a right to demand to have his wife’s avoidable death be brought to the highest authority?

Leigh,
At the end of the day it does not matter where he is from. he has made serious accusations about the treatment his wife was given by our health care system but now refuses to help with any one of the many enquiries which are been made to find out what happened . I think he is doing this on advice from people with much bigger agendas than to find out what actually happened in this particular case

He doesn’t trust there not being a cover up. Nor does anyone else in Ireland. The more exposure (including international exposure) the better. That way if GUH, the HSE and the legislators find themselves in the clear, all well and good. If there are shortcomings and Ireland addresses them, all the better.

@jerry

There are Irish people giving out about the state of the hse and health service every day of the week. Just read the papers!

Are you saying that p halappanavar has no right to mistrust the hse because he is foreign? He pays Irish taxes too. More importantly his wife died under the care of the hse. This death should not have happened. He has every reason not to trust them.

F off wud ya. This case has nothing to do with India.
If this was your daughter would you still act so cold towards this man. You and I can’t get pregneant so we have nothing to say on this matter. It should be a woman’s choice and she did ask for termination which she was entitled too if the doctors has taken her seriously that her life was in Jepoardy.
Hopefully Savitas death won’t be in vain and Irish law will be changed for the 21st century despite your backwardass views

Jerry
You are badly informed and I would even go so far as to say narrow minded.
I imagine if it was you that needed life saving surgery and the HSE said they
could not help because … say…. you are a man and it is a catholic country!
You would want a proper public inquiry. Some EMPATHY Jerry would not go amiss.
EMPATHY : the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another .

Jessica, regardless of whether an Indian woman died or an Irish woman died, this is a serious enough matter to justify a proper form of legally constituted inquiry. If inquiries have been refused in relation to deaths of Irish women, this does not justify refusing Praveen the form of inquiry he is entitled to under the European Convention on Human Rights.

I admire Praveen and Savita’s father for bringing all of this sad affair out into the open.

Tell us Peter what form of inquiry is he entitled to exactly under the European Convention on Human Rights? I understand this man is upset and I am pro-choice but he has no right to dictate what form the inquiry takes.

He is entitled at least to a Commission of Investigation under the 2004 Act which would likely meet Convention obligations.

@ Belly Up, he is entitled to assert his legal rights, which he doing. He is not dictating terms. This recent widower, tragically bereaved, merely wants the full facts of his late wife’s treatment to be exposed. That said, I fully understand the reluctance to allow him the form of inquiry to which he is entitled.

Well Peter a Commission of Investigation has to be carried out in private so where are you getting this public inquiry from? Besides there is no right to have a Commission of Investigation. The act simply establishes it as one of a number of forms an investigation can take.

And he is essentially trying to dictate the terms by threatening to take action until his wishes are met.

A Commission of Investigation would likely meet the requirements of the Convention even though in private. It would be cheaper than a Public Tribunal but a Tribunal of Inquiry would definitely meet the requirements of the Convention. I am addressing the concern over the level of legal costs. A reasonable case could be made that a Commission, although not public, would meet the 5 requirements if the Convention as interpreted by the Courts. The ICCL letter of the 22nd November expresses this better than I can.

Maura, the situation in India has no relevance to Ireland. This is not a matter of reciprocity. Demanding your legal rights is not holding Ireland to ransom. Irish citizens demand their legal rights every day.

If they started out by doing what was right in the first place there would be no stand offs and no difficulties. But this government can as usual be relied on to make a mess of it . They have no decency.

It would add insult to grievous injury to ask Praveen to pay for an inquiry into his wife’s tragic death.

He is asking the tax payer of this country to pay for his demands and someone else having to go without but I guess this doesn’t matter nor does it matter that it could take years to complete the inquiry with a finding of no malpractice, no law broken and no prosecution and only a recommendation. In the meantime other women may face the same issues and die while a media circus envelopes a public inquiry and pro live and pro choice groups exploited any opportunity that comes their way.

Praveen should in the interest of justice cooperate with inquiries currently setup instead of making demands on Ireland and its people.

Tom he and his late wife were paying tax here so no point in that remark. Regarding the rest of your comment. Given the circumstances would you trust a body that set up an inquiry which appointed 3 members from the hospital that was under inquiry?

A “Die hard Fianna Fail man” warning of the potential costs of a public enquiry? pppffffff

Tom
Praveen and Savita were paying taxes here too.
This man is doing us all a favor and I for one support him .
I am so sad for him that it took the loss of his wife to do
what we all know should have been dealt with years ago
only nobody was brave or strong enough to stand up to
the government.

If he is demaning a public enquiry when he is only entitled to a private enquiry let him foot the bill for the public enquiry then see how far he takes this. the husband also said if the family had still been living in India his wife would still be alive. Why werent they in India?

I dont like what happened to the mans wife i have so much sympathy for her family but this happens to irish women regularly, unfortunately, but where is the enquiry to all the irish women who lost their lives during birth???

It cant be one rule for him and one for everyone else just because he throws a tantrum!

Daragh Keogh
He is NOT throwing a tantrum tho . He is very calm and respectful,
and quiet. Did you see his interview with MS O Callaghan ?
He was so DIGNIFIED. It is the health minister Reilly and Kenny who are throwing a strop…

Can you not get this through your thick skull. This public inquiry is for the benefit of all Irish people too.
Oh I’m sorry I apologise I forgot you’re part of the Christian backwardass Stone Age mentality.
This inquiry will possibly get something f@@king done which should have been done 20 years ago. How many more women have to go abroad needlessly for abortions or suffer Savitas fate.

Paul B
Don’t mind them , These people don’t have Mothers or daughters or sisters or wives or aunts or nieces…. They are narrow minded and insensitive, and escaped from a cave some where no doubt.

Ed He is of course BUT he is still entitled to have full answers and not be fobbed off with red tape.

Mary, yes, Praveen has been consistent in his demand for a public inquiry and I fail to see why the Government will not give him his entitlement unless it is a matter of loss of face.

It is sad that he does not have unanimous support for his demand.

Peter and Mary
Because this government are a shower of arrogant and cruel so and so’s. THey enjoy the power they can wield over peoples lives , and I admire Praveen for his absolute sense of duty and his loyalty to his wife . We could all learn some thing from him , me thinks. .
Peter I agree with every thing you said and learned a lot from the patient way you explained it too.
I just want Praveen to be treated right . .

True

i’m not a fan of FG/Labour,
but i hope they try & continue to assert our independence.
too many brave men & women died for our independence.
all of us should defend it.

Possibly because they are concerned that it will cost a fortune, and may turn into a media circus.

True! But why did the Hospital/HSE did request note from her file! Public Inquiry is the only way to get the truth when we are dealing with dishonest persons!

Sorry! HIDE notes from her File?

iwantjustice5, that hasn’t been established. Stop stating something as a fact when we the details have not been investigated/publicised yet.

What trip are you on? Are you calling her Husband a Lier? He told us all that notes were missing from his wife’s file! And. His word is good enough for me! It’s not as if were have a trust wordy government or any thing!!!

Just wondering where are iwantjustice1,2,3, and 4 tonight?

Why?

Pajo Keane, your view is not surprising in view of excessive and extortionate legal fee levels in the past but, in fairness, it is simply a matter of seeing that the Rule of Law is complied with by the State. A properly constituted form of inquiry need not be expensive and this is a matter which is amenable to fast and efficient inquiry in the form of a Commission of Investigation.

@Peter Richardson I understand what you say that an enquiry does not have to be expensive if done properly but we were told that the Moriarty Tribunal would be A LOT cheaper than it turned out to be. A lot of solicitors were made millionaires just because of the tribunal and all out of our pockets. it will happen again if a public enquiry was opened into this.

if her death could be exploited,
the pro abortion lobby would exploit it, irrespective of her nationality.

Will you pay for it? And for all the ones that come after it from other people. There’s already three enquiries and an inquest. That’s plenty.

ohhhhhhhhh,,reports,,enquiries,,courts,,etc etc ,,,if a similiar tragedy happens tomorrow in ireland,,the doctors hands are still tied tight behind their back,,,! because we,,irish ppl said no! to abortion,,,at this vry moment,,women are travelling for abortions because tragically the baby they carry has no chance of life outside the womb,,no chance,,not talking severe disability here,,i mean life,,foetus without a brain,,its a disgrace these women have to leave their country and more importantly their loved one and network of support,,to terminate a much longed for pregnancy,,then afterwards,,walk or sit around waiting for nxt flight home,,in pain,,grief,,i am anti abortion as a contraceptive,,but there are exceptions,,,why,,people,,are we afraid????

Hsianloon. I’m sure as his wife was dying beside him his first thought was ” yes! I’ll get a big settlement and FINALLY be able to get that castle by the sea”.