Say’s a MAN who opposes abortion.

The facts:
She developed blood poisoning as a result of the fetus dying from miscarriage.
If it was terminated, she wouldn’t have that problem or be in constant unbearable pain.

It is you who lies about a lot of things, not the least of which is that you’re qualified to make such blanket statements.

STFU about medicine before you actually hurt someone.

I hope that was meant for someone else?

I find post on the journal, on occasion, seem to be placed randomly about the timeline. It doesn’t read as if it was intended for you.

Says a man who is not a woman:
If I was pregnant and I felt myself that . my life was in danger from a 4 month foetus , I would reserve the right to do what I want with my own body to save myself. In this country that would mean short of throwing myself down a stairs , I would have to go to the UK. There I would receive non judgemental treatment instead of being subjected to the archaic mumbo jumbo that still riddles Irish Society. I wandered into Knock village recently and was confronted by an advertisement selling rosary beads which had the shape of an aborted foetus in each bead. It would make you wonder what sort of minds these people have. Ireland I’s ono longer run by a catholic hegemony. Time to change things.

Because they (FG overall) are the best solution the country has on offer currently. That’s why people vote for them.

I vote for FG, as the name suggests, but would change immediately if something more credible came along but unfortunately it hasn’t and doesn’t look like it will.

If I could assemble a Dail full of people of a similar quality to Stephen Donnelly, my personal favourite politician, I would but unfortunately 166 Stephen Donnelly’s aren’t stepping forward.

So we have to make do with what we have, although in saying that the “gender quota” rules coming in mean I’ll never vote another woman again, cutting the list of potential candidates down even further.

You cannot claim FG are “credible” while pretending there are no alternatives. You are a right-wing neo-con by your extreme views so you are unlikely to vote for the alternatives on the left.

You guys can stop tearing down any optimistic statements or positive news. The election is coming and you will loose to Sinn Fein and Independents.

Extreme views?

Here’s a few of my views:
I’m 100% pro-marijuana legalisation
100% pro-gay rights
100% pro-gay marriage
100% pro-open access to abortion
100% in favour of free education and access to healthcare
100% in favour of providing even more welfare to those currently not covered by it, namely the self-employed

And more.

So less of the presumptions, little man. Fine Gael don’t support a lot of those views, but they’re the best fit for how I want the country to be ran currently. There isn’t a party or entity available that supports the above views while also having the credibility to tackle the problems the country is facing. Fine Gael took the hard route and saved the country before and now they’re doing it again. While I’d love to see a few or all of the above coming in here, I’ll sacrifice them in order to see the country having the best available chance at an economic recover and that is with Fine Gael, fortunate or not.

Sinn Fein will never, ever hold Government here. Never. The last Red C poll indicated that Fianna Fail themselves had more support than SF, and with every bit of good news, FG are gaining more support.

So you and the other shinners here can keep dreaming to be honest and thankfully, because Sinn Fein offer this country nothing.

I’m not a man you stupid conservative shill.

Based on your description of an incomplete miscarriage and what I know about them the fetus would be dead so abortion would not be even on the table. Moreso the fetus was never viable oitside of the womb or inside the womb if the fetus was in the condition you describe, so there was no living child to save, only a mother.
__________________

If I’m dying in a hospital, surrounded by doctors, they have a moral obligation to help me. Not to tell me Fine Gael says I have to die.

FG2016. You’re as delusional as Inda-the-half-wit. People voted for FG simply because they were not FF.

We need an entirely new political party and I see one formed this week, direct democracy Ireland.

Hopefully there will be a few more, one of whom will come to the fore in the next 3 years and consign the self-serving gluttonous incompetent pigs of FF, FG, Lab, SF to the dust bin of history where u now find the Green something or others

I agree on Stephen Donnelly his a fine politician, just a pity about the rest

People of Ireland…do not vote for FG…do not vote for FG not FF in the next election. They are both killing this once proud country. FG have lied and flip flopped on every promise they made..they are killing businesses in Ireland with upward only rents and massive rare increases which is causing mass job lossses and zero stimulus. DO NOT VOTE for FG again.

FG, Could I please ask you to clarify – are you saying that because of gender quotas you will never vote for a woman again?
Is this a typo? Or was it just phrased badly? Surely you are not saying that you would discount any female candidate based upon her sex alone just because you disagree with gender quotas?
My apologies if I have misunderstood you.. It’s just next to the comment about people using the children’s ref as a protest vote it seems a little odd..

It took Sinn Fein a little while to jump on this band wagon. I’m surprised, they are usually quick off the mark.

@ITS Student – Cripes. I see you ranting on here a lot, gave you a fair reply and you’re resorting to your petty insults and “neo-con”, “conservative” and “shill” chants again. I get it, you’re not worth addressing any further, you’ve no valuable input to anything. Thanks for clarifying.

@Shanti -

Yes, I will not vote for another female candidate again and yes, because of her sex. Gender quotas have put us in an unfortunate situation whereby people will now be put into position to run simply due to their sex – to keep the number of women candidates up to prevent them (the parties) from losing funding, as our ludicrous rules now state.

While we now have a situation whereby a certain number of women have to be running, simply because they’re women, then I absolutely cannot vote for them. It’s sexist rules and is putting candidates up for election because of what is between their legs and not because of what they can offer the country or area, which is something I fundamentally disagree with.

There was absolutely nothing stopping women from joining parties and applying to run, or running as independents previously.

Now, we’re going to see women being ran for simply being women and thus I won’t vote for them out of principal.

Sexist rules have gotten a sexist response, I’m afraid. You want to run someone simply because of what is between their legs and I’m going to vote on someone simply because of what’s between their legs.

@Torpedo –

Usually they just have to say “No!” to things. This time they actually had to give it some consideration.

Ok FG..
What if the woman in question happened to be the female equivalent of Stephen Donnelly? Would you really make that big a hypocrite of yourself as a protest against gender quotas?

Shanti,
Yep, would happily not vote for them. As I said, unless the gender quotas are rolled back ill never vote for a woman in this country again, regardless.

Up to 30% of the candidates being ran simply because they have a vagina means ill have to vote for those who I know got there through merit, not their penises, and I’ll have to vote for who I like in that 70%.

This is an extremely sexist rule that has been brought in and I’ll protest against it with the same sexism.

Ok FG. Lets say I punched you in the face, would you lower yourself to my level and punch me back, or would you walk away and press charges for assault?

Because that’s pretty much what you are doing, they want to balance out the sexes in the Dáil, and in obstinance you rule out the female sex – not based upon ability, reason or logic, but based upon pure immaturity.

And you made comment on people using the children’s referendum as a protest vote against the government too..

Illogical, devoid of coherent reason and completely hypocritical.. Can see why you support FG..

Shanti,

Its forced equality, equality purely for the sake of it, not merit.

I can’t support that and thus will only vote for the candidates I know got there through merit.

I see the feminist double standards are out in force, so ill leave it at that point.

Yes, but you also stated that even if that woman had merit you would still not vote for her based upon obstinance.. But by all means, accuse me of double standards..

FG2016 Enda Kenny inherited his seat from his father – hardly merit. Would you rule him out too – PLEASE

The more I see it the more I am reminding myself that the FG2016 label appearing probably is going to be the year of the ultimate demise of the Fine Gael Party – just like Fianna Fáil , they will get truly hammered at the poles by then , if they keep their utterances and lack of decision making & lack of leadership at the same level as it is now – they truly have become a very sick joke .

Their supporters reaction to the only true Opposition Party in the Oireachtas, is pure childishness in the extreme!

IT’S Student
In the Year of Our Lord 2012, what is a Neo Con? And perhaps you could advise what you are studying because for most subjects one should have basic English and in context the word is “Did” rather than “done”.
With the latter one is simply boasting of an inferior social class and education. Not an auspicious start to any worthwhile career!

You should probably learn how to reply to the right comment before you go insulting everyone else’s intellectual capabilities!

Garry the man who puts zzzz into fitz

Unfortunately its not as clear as you make it out to be Jackie from a purely legal standpoint.

You seem to hold to the viewpoint that the doctors in this case made decision on a religious point of view. That arises from an unsubstantiated statement attributed to somebody who talked about “this being a Catholic country”. But there is no proof so far that anybody actually said this or that if it was said that it had any bearing on the case. Let’s wait untl the facts emerge before we rush to judgement.

To be honest I’m sure there are many doctors all over the country (and probably some in this case) who would agree with you rationale and priorities and in a situation like this would want to put the mother first and foremost but doctors have to respect the law of the land and the law is unclear in what happens here. That’s the nub of the problem.

Leaving the immediate issue to one side we probably always want doctors to respect the law of the land when they practice. But the law needs to be clarified and made easy for doctors to know exactly what they can and can’t do.

A little learning is a dangerous thing!

And you are the master of stupidity, how shameful.

Who cares who tables the motion; we don’t want to wait another twenty years do we?

Typical Shinners! They know this legislation is going to happen and they are rushing out in an effort to try and fool people into thinking it was their idea!

Sinn Fein as a protector of life!!!!
defies comment………

At least it gives idiots the perfect excuse to oppose such legislation.

‘Well if SF are in favor of it then I can’t be expected to support it’… fools.

@Mart, that’s the exact excuse many on this very site used to vote against the amendments proposed in the Children’s Referendums, except with the government parties swapped in instead of Sinn Fein.

Well said Gerri! S.F on the bandwagon as usual !

Spot on Brendan!

Sinn Féin was the only political party that support the bill back in April, which would have protected the life of Savita. Long before her death, and long before it became a media hot potato.

So no – it’s not a populist motion – it’s a much delayed motion and Sinn Féin deserve every credit for putting it forward.

Sean, the problem with the bill back in April was that it was flawed. It surpassed the terms of the previous referendum so would have been thrown out by the Supreme Court. The only way to get it passed would have been to have another referendum. It could not have been passed as legislation as it stood even if everyone in the Dáil supported it.

Sinn Fein’s bill was credible.

fetus is dead and all that is left sadly is the expulsion of the fetus remains or some form of medical intervention like a D&C to prevent complications for the mother. I find it hard to believe that even in a country where abortion is illegal that medical intervention is not allowed when complications set in – created by FINE GAEL & FIANNA FAIL.

Shanti,

Yep, would happily not vote for them. As I said, unless the gender quotas are rolled back ill never vote for a woman in this country again, regardless.

Up to 30% running simply because they have a vagina means ill have to vote for those who i know got there through merit, not their penises, and vote for who I like in that 70%.

Ah, so you are a hypocrite then. Fair enough, thank you for clarifying.

Personally, I will vote for whomever represents my views the most, regardless of sex or party. But then again, I’m not one for making decisions based upon fallacy..

Dunno how that got there.

You know, I generally oppose gender quotas, but the fact that a man would choose to ignore 50% of the gender because you feel that a political decision you disagree with of some women reflects on all of them? That’s kind of creepy. Plenty of women get elected on merit (plenty of men clearly get elected without it!)

Your faith in Fine Gael is misplaced. They repeatedly opposed abortion and the christian right PD’s wanted to amalgamate with them. 2016 cannot come soon enough, that garbage must be voted out of office.

The Supreme Court have ruled that we must legislate for the X case, the ECHR has ruled that we must legislate for the X case, our international neighbours and the UN have said we need to legislate for the X case. The Irish people voted yes in a referendum to legislate for the X case. Yet a woman is dead because of people like you who think you know more than all of the above.

” introduce a liberal abortion regime” and where do you get that quote or idea from? Do much scare mongering LarBren1?

Successive Fine Gael / Fianna Fail governments had 20 years and done nothing.

Reactionary legislation? ffs… people have been calling for during the reigns of the last 7 successive governments. Pull your head out of the sand. FG don’t want to bring in this legislation because they know full well that it’ll cost them a good deal of their core vote.. just the same reason as why FF were too afraid to touch it.

If abortion were put to referendum tomorrow, it would be voted against.

You do realise that?

Well if it’s worded like that it probably would be, yes.

Abortion.. Yes or No?… cop on. It’s simple minded notions like that which hinder any meaningful progress on the matter.

This aspect of law was put to a referendum and passed incase you hadn’t noticed.

Furthermore with regards to the issue of abortion in general- attitudes are only shifting in one direction. It’s only a matter of time, as people are realising that for many, it is the least worst option.

It’s sad to think the neo-cons still have big parish voters duped by ideology. Few young people cast their votes and this gives the older right-wing mob a victory. But once that older generation dies, they are gone and ever diminishing.

Mart,

Well really, either you’re for abortion being available or you’re against it. It’s either murder, as many claim, or it’s not. You can’t half murder someone. You’re either killing someone or you’re not.

I support abortion, many don’t and that’s something that a few parties, namely the Churches here, have to blame for.

We’ll only look like bigger idiots if we put in legislation that amounts to “Yes, abortion is fine but only if X, Y and Z conditions are met”. Either it’s murder or it’s not, if it’s not, as I personally believe, then there shouldn’t be any questions over it. Don’t like it? Don’t have one so, pretty straight forward.

Pregnancies that are proven to be non-viable, as Savita’s was, shouldn’t come under the term abortion. Euthanasia would perhaps be a bit more accurate, as you’re merely giving a quick and painless ending to something that will die anyway. Getting euthanasia in would also be very progressive.

What is known is that more women die in childbirth than in abortion but that’s not the point. The is and always will be that abortion is the right of every woman. Period.

In the US, abortion is legal. Legal or not, what any woman chooses is no one elses business. There is nothing that can change that.

There’s no way it would be voted against. No way. Country should be ashamed of itself. I know I am ashamed when this conversation comes up with non Irish people. This should never have happened to this woman or any other woman. I hope she did not die in vain and abortion is finally legalized in this dinosaur of a country and law. There should be a clear separation of church and state. Sick of being bible bashed at.

@Joanne-
If the question was whether you wanted abortion to be accessible in the country or not, it would be voted against and by quite a bit. You’re talking about a country that passed divorce by the width of a hair not so long ago. Almost half the country wanted miserable marriages to be remain bound together legally and suffer in silence.

So if you believe that abortion, what a massive amount of the country believe is murder and infanticide, would get through at referendum then you’re way out of what with what is actually going on in the country.

The whole thing poses a challenge to the government because if they’re just going to legislate for it, then they risk going against the views of what could well be the majority of the country. If they’re going to change the constitution for it, then they know it won’t pass.

The government is there to represent the views of the people, if they ask the people for its views abortion will be shot down and massively so. If they don’t, they run the risk of making a move that could be totally against the wishes of the majority of the country.

It’s stuck between a rock and a hard place really.

This is why the government are talking about clarity of existing legislation – to see where exactly we are and if changes need to be made in order to prevent what happened from happening again and if so how they need to be made. If it’s a constitutional amendment they may as well forget about it. If it’s through just legislation then they have to get that legislation passed by predominantly Catholic legislators.

It’s not as easy as “Put this in there and it’ll all be grand”, unfortunately it just isn’t.

She was having a miscarriage, but it was incomplete. She was in great pain, and after 24 hours she begged doctors for an abortion, to end the pregnancy as quick as possible. As the fetus still had a heartbeat, she was denied the abortion.

Finally, the fetus died, and the woman developed blood poisoning and died a week later.

No sane-minded person would vote for Right-Wing Fine Gael Blueshirts if they were of child-bearing age. With the exception of the old grannies who will soon wither in their populace.

You haven’t a clue ITStudent. You were not there. You are cobbling together pieces of populist press and forming an opinion, which is fine in private, but not fine on a public forum.

Wait for the inquiry.

@ Glass Half Full,

I hope I’m not talking to the same person using a different username, but if you want to wait another 20 years for nothing to be legislated for, why don’t you contest the next election with that as your number one manifesto?

ITS student

You’re paranoid, but that explains a lot regarding your vehemence here.
The legislation is already there. It’s interpretation is probably the key fault in this instance.
The populist reaction to this sad story is frightening. I find it shocking that SF and Independants alike have pounced on the issue for political inches. It’s quite frankly sickening.
I imagine every person connected to this poor family are stunned and shocked at the Irish and international attention. Too many wrong opinions being thrown out as fact. Let’s find out the exact circumstances first, and form an opinion based on facts shall we? Anything else is populist unsubstantiated rubbish. End of.

FG. It’s not about clarity of legislation, it’s about implementing legislation full stop.

As some of the journal staff have pointed out on the threads over the past few days (as some seem to be under the misguided idea that legislation exists already). There was a Supreme Court judgement in 1992. Since then NO legislation has been enacted to give weight to the Supreme Court ruling.
We had a referendum to try and overturn the Supreme Court judgement and it was defeated.

The legislation on the books regarding abortion is the Offences against the person act 1861, which states that it is illegal for a woman to “procure a miscarriage” or for anyone to help her. This law outdates our states formation by over 50 years.

As you can see the Supreme Court ruling stands at odds with the current legislation creating a murky and unclear area for doctors. This is what the ECHR told us to sort out. We need legislation and we need it now, nearly 21 years waiting is inexcusable and is solely down to governments refusal to legislate – or in short, do their jobs (and dear leader should probably remember that he has a mandate from the people, his personal views are irrelevant).

If the majority were against abortion then they would have voted to overturn the Supreme Court judgement – they didn’t. We voted for legislation and we are still waiting..

Actually, Glass Half Full, Savita’s husband and famiy were so outraged that they contacted Irish press and pro choice groups to make sure legislation happened so no family would suffer like this again. So, no, doubt they’d be shocked or outraged that people also find this situation horrible.

There is no legislation covering abortion for maternal life reasons. Please get the facts right.

Sorry to burst your bubble Nick.

http://www.safeandlegalinireland.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12&Itemid=18

Rgds, GHF.

There is a constitutional provision. There is no legislation. Nowhere on that page does it specify a law. Under the constitution, it is legal, but procedures to carry this out have not been put in place (similar to what the situation was with blasphemy until recently).

Sorry to burst yours Glass..
The Supreme Court ruling in 1992, the “X case” ruled that abortion was legal in these circumstances.
HOWEVER,
There is NO LEGISLATION to give weight in application to the Supreme Court Ruling.
The legislation still says its an offence to procure an abortion, that’s still on the statute book (offences against the person act 1861).. THIS is what the ECHR told us to get our asses in gear over.

Please see Gavans post to Vincent Dolan here:
http://www.thejournal.ie/savita-demonstration-leinster-house-674695-Nov2012/
And Sineads post at the end here:
http://www.thejournal.ie/international-media-savita-675478-Nov2012/
Also there’s a comment below Sineads on that article that explains it quite well too.

There is NO legislation giving effect to the Supreme Court ruling – that abortion is legal when there is a risk to the mother.. THIS is your error.

Nick, look. An abortion procedure could have legally been carried out on this poor lady in order to save her life. Its there, in black and white. No medical staff need have worried one little bit about any repercussion. The fact is, it wasn’t carried out. For whatever God awful reason.
We need to wait for the inquiry to produce its results. Although, I really don’t think the public in its current mood have the patience.

Shanti Om,

I’m sorry, but that is semantics. Same response to your argument as I sent to Nick. An abortion in this case could have been carried out without any fear of repercussion. G’nite.

In the constitution, it says an abortion can be performed if a woman has a substantial and immediate risk. What’s substantial? Everyone’s clear when it’s 90% certain she’ll die, but what about when it’s 50, 40% certain? Doctors start to worry about repercussions. Which is why legslation can only present more clarity and certainly couldn’t hurt.

While you think people should wait for the conclusion, but you have admitted that you were unable to distinguish between a constitutional provision and legislation. Prominent ob/gyns, including the head of the Rotunda, have asked for it to be clarified through legislation. Why are you ignoring facts that don’t suit your pre-considered theory?

Well if it had I wouldn’t exist so I think I can safely conclude that I wouldn’t care..

@ Shanti That’s sums it up so ” I wouldn’t care “

Well Richard, as I said the reason I would not care is because *I* would not exist. I’m not sure how the hypothetical feelings of a non existent being are relevant to the discussion..

That is such a crass remark, Richard. The fact that we are here means our mothers carried us to term successfully. If it were the case that I had been a non viable foetus who’s continued existence threatened the life or the health of my mother, them I hope I would have been aborted but as I was born in 1950s Ireland , she would have died like many others.

Is this a regular hangout for Fine Gael conservatives?

I’m Fianna Fail. And not a conservative.

And going onto Twitter, tweeting “F*** You” and then blocking me wasn’t exactly the height of maturity.

Cop on. C from ABC, Savita, Michelle Harte: all women who should have been able to get a medically necessary abortion and who couldn’t. Doctors need to be certain when they can operate and medical guidelines aren’t sufficient. This should not happen to another woman.

If any of our politicians had any credibility this wouldn’t be an issue and legislation for the X case would have been put in place 20 years ago!

Statistically abortion is safer than childbirth. And as for pregnancy itself and all that entails, that’s the elephant in the room (pardon the analogy) that none of the anti choice brigade want to look at..

Does a fetus have rights?

Reality is Arbitrasu someone a none national died in agony in the “care” of our “health” system. That none national asked for a termination after being told the foetus was not viable. According to her husband that was refused on a number of occasions, Are you calling him a liar?

I’d rather a party indulged in crass opportunism than brushing it under the carpet and putting it on the long finger like successive governments have for the last 20 years.

I’m no fan of Sinn Fein, but they’re at least attempting to remedy the situation. Claire Daly tried to in April and all the sanctimonious, handwringing, hypocritical bastards voted No to her bill and are now left with blood on their hands

I wonder what cowardly excuses the government will use to vote down the motion… because we all know they will.