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David v Goliath? Was the downfall of Norris really a result of trial-by-media? Sam Boal/Photocall Ireland

Column Why Norris had to jump – and who pushed him

Blogger Sinéad Keogh questions if David Norris was the subject of a ‘witch hunt’, the architect of his own downfall or a combination of inexperience, an inconsistent public and all of the above.

AS JOYCEAN SCHOLAR David Norris would know, the old Ulysses quote goes that “Sufficient for the day is the newspaper thereof”. With the presidential candidate having dropped out of the race, Sinéad Keogh asks if our newspapers have been sufficient in the weekend that saw Norris fall spectacularly in the polls, and who is really to blame for the so called ‘witch hunt’?

On Saturday morning while still in bed, (you see, you can be an authority from anywhere on the internet), I watched the David Norris saga begin to unfold on Twitter and said the following: “All this mystery from the #Norris campaign team resigning on twitter smacks of immaturity and inexperience. State your case or shut up.” Retweets, rebuttals and a wound-up campaign later, I stand over every word.

My knowledge of David Norris and his career, like Eily Kilbride’s knowledge of breakfast, is coldly limited. I know that he’s a Joycean scholar because you always hear him on the radio around Bloomsday. I know that he supports the Privacy Bill because I had to write a media law essay once. I know that he’s witty and affable because I’ve seen him on the telly. I know that he was on Operation Transformation because it was a quiz question in the Children’s Books Ireland table quiz once – the clue being that the participant in question lived across the street from their offices and my brain somehow marrying the fact that they were based on North Great Georges Street with the knowledge gleaned from somewhere that that was also his address.

I know that he has done great work in the area of human rights because it’s the go-to positive Norris fact when comment is required. I know that he is gay because the defining fact of his life seems to be, as regards how the public view it, that he is gay.

I suspect that outside of those who work in or have a large interest in politics, the general public’s knowledge of David Norris’ life isn’t any greater than mine, and that’s alright. We don’t seek out information that we don’t need. Those tidbits that we pick up in the media fall into a self-styled hierarchy in our brains of what’s important and to be held onto and what can fall away without consequence.

Up until now, most people have never been required to make a decision on their opinion of whether they would like David Norris to occupy a position in public life unless they were an alumnus of Trinity College, his Seanad electorate, so up until now we haven’t needed to hold onto all of the pertinent facts that we might need to make such a judgement.

You can’t shoot a man without ammunition and Norris provided his own

Online at least, which is predominantly where I read my news and the only place I can really make comment, the unfolding Norris story, from back when it was the Helen Lucy Burke interview to now when it is the Ezra Yizhak Nawi letters, has been referred to as a gay witch hunt, a smear campaign and the battering ram of homophobes looking for a more palatable excuse to debar his presidential run. Perhaps from some corners that is the intent, but you can’t shoot a man without ammunition and Norris provided his own.

Undoubtedly, political news provides endless opportunities for spin, as was easy to watch play out in the case of the Helen Lucy Burke interview as war waged between pro-Norris and anti-Norris camps with regard to what was really said and how it should be interpreted. As to the fact that these stories surfaced and re-surfaced years after the fact, does that make it a witch hunt? The Burke interview was published and forgotten and we were reminded. The Nawi letters, without knowing how they came to light, are pertinent to our making up our minds on voting for Norris irrespective of the intent of those who discovered them. The media are the intermediary for when we need to know the facts but can’t do our own digging.

So has Norris been treated unfairly? No he has not. A thorough digging is to be expected when you put yourself forward to hold a position that must be beyond reproach.

You might say the electorate has been treated unfairly

But have the electorate been treated unfairly? You might say we have. Unless there is nothing to know about Mary Davis, Michael D Higgins, Gay Mitchell or Seán Gallagher then reporting has been unduly weighted. Indeed, maybe there is nothing as sensational as comments on pedastry or writing letters of appeal for clemency, but if one political career can yield unpleasant finds with a bit of digging then they all must. It’s true that it’s certainly the time for such a story. Between the recent publishing of the Cloyne Report and Enda’s speech in response, the nation is feeling particularly sensitive about and protective toward its children.

However, it remains the duty of the media to inform its public, not just to throw us the juiciest bone and wait until we’ve gnawed it away before giving us anything else. You could say that we’ll always be hungry dogs if the keeper of the key to the food press isn’t benevolent but we ought remember that the relationship isn’t quite a simple as all that. We’re hungry dogs that pay for our food and we’ve taught our media that we’ll pay for sensationalism. We bay for blood.

So what of the original comment? “All this mystery from the #Norris campaign team resigning on twitter smacks of immaturity and inexperience. State your case or shut up.” A keen observation of how political players ought to conduct themselves? Hardly. I was enjoying watching it play out as much as the next person. I wanted more information. The internet is a shooting gallery where the crowd clap at the smallest hit and it’s made us all commentators who feel our opinions matter more and more. But it wasn’t just a volley at those who were saying just enough to whet our appetites but denying us the big reveal, it was a genuine observation regarding what the campaign team were doing to the campaign itself.

Who are Norris’ supporters, or, who were they? Are they human rights activists? Are they privacy bill supports? Are they otherwise politically active? Do they have to be? It’s a theory with nothing substantial behind it, but I put forward that they were people who wanted Ireland to have the first gay president. Young, forward-thinking, progressive and well-meaning. There’s nothing wrong with that. There’s no need for the presidential candidate to be steeped in politics, indeed better if they’re not. However, a platform president seems just as bad as a political one.

The Twitter resignations of other members of the campaign kept the commentary flowing

Norris himself wasn’t running on a gay ticket, but it seems that’s why his supports wanted him to win, and it’s a nice idea. He’s affable, he’s witty, he’d hit the headlines for being first at something and shine a spotlight on us and our progressive actions. When your supporters and campaign team are made up of the Nice Idea Society, though, maybe they haven’t got the political savvy to carry you through.

Obviously, the big name resignations of Norris’ Director of Communications and Director of Elections would have sounded warning bells anyway, but the Twitter resignations of other members of the campaign kept the commentary flowing. Those who did resign online have been defended with comments regarding the likelihood of a confidentiality agreement or how understandable it was to want to distance themselves from what was coming. It’s been said that they’re deserving of sympathy because they were let down by Norris more than any of us – they had worked for him and he hadn’t been completely honest with them.

While all of that stands true, and it can equally be said that they had no more chance of knowing about the Nawi letters than the rest of us, that only means there was no cause or gain to be had from publicly disassociating themselves from the campaign via social media. If you can’t give full facts, stand back and speak when you can speak with authority. The public can’t judge you with regard to information you didn’t have and if they’re going to, they’ll do it irrespective of when you quit.

The reality is that Norris seems just as lacking in media savvy as his former and current team. He should have reacted much sooner, he should have expected the digging. He should have fully informed his team and had a tighter rein on his communications so that his team didn’t speak before he did. Had he carried on through without this revelation, would we only have discovered down the line that his presidency was supported by a haphazard and amateur support network? Maybe it’s a naïve interpretation of politics based entirely on The West Wing talking, but it seems true that your campaign team become your team when in office, and I don’t want my president or his team to be elected on the platform of a Nice Idea and turn out to be poorly able to handle their role when it comes down to what the office of president really is in this country – an ambassador to the world and a person beyond reproach who doesn’t have faux pas.

While the media have clamped their jaw around the story, there’s no doubt that we’ve supported their effort and if we’re to suggest that they’re on a witch hunt then we have to acknowledge that we’re all gathered around the village noose waiting for the hanging to commence. Leaving aside the spin, the reaction, the media, the social media, examine your view of David Norris’ actions, which are all that really matter in your decision about whether or not he should be president or whether or not he should even run.

Oh yeah, we really care about the children

If we accept, and you might not, that he doesn’t believe in pedastry and that what he did wrong was jump to the defence of someone that he loved, then I believe that his actions, while understandable, were still wrong. He abused his position, and it’s not like it hasn’t been done by politicians before but that doesn’t mean calling him on it is a witch hunt, it just means we’ve been too lenient on every other occasion. No, you should not defend anyone who abuses a child, no matter your reason or position, no matter if you’re a TD scrounging votes in your locality or a senator defending someone that you love. The state does not approve of the action, your representations on behalf of the state your work for should not imply that it does.

Secondary to that, his ability to handle the reaction has been poor and we don’t need a president about whom there is whispering and uncertainty and a marked inability to exercise good judgement in matters private or public. David Norris, like the schoolbooks say about Charles Stewart Parnell and the last relationship we didn’t approve of, is the architect of his own demise.

But all that said, the fact is that there are two stories above the fold today (Tuesday, 2 August), in the Irish Times at least. Firstly, the Norris campaign and secondly a story about social services cuts putting children at risk. Two stories, which, if weekend commentary is be believed, are about the necessity to put our children first.

At nine o’clock this morning Radio One were discussing addiction to the internet and how we’re all out for instant gratification and celebrity with our constant publication of opinions via social networks. Ryan Tubridy on 2FM was discussing whether or not Norris could or should still run. Nobody was discussing social services cuts which affect hundreds of children every day. On TheJournal.ie, the Norris update has over 800 views at time of writing while the social services story had just over 100. Oh yeah, we really care about the children.

The Norris saga hasn’t just highlighted wrongdoing by a potential presidential candidate, it’s highlighted a deep inconsistency within our society. Unless we acknowledge the true reasoning behind our opinions, unless we scrutinise all of our presidential candidates, unless we act of belief aside from being populist then today isn’t just a bad day to be gay or a bad day to be a Norris supporter, it’s a bad day for all of us because we’ve become conditioned to be outraged without even being consistent enough to elicit any kind of change. No, we can’t lay this at the media’s door and call it a witch hunt. Norris wasn’t hanged for something he didn’t do – it was something he did. His trial wasn’t by media alone, it was by a vocal public, and the threads of an inexperienced campaign just couldn’t hang together in the face of it all.

Sinéad Keogh is commander-in-chief of Irish pop culture blog Culch.ie, and edits books in real life.
This post first appeared on Lisa McInerney’s Scribble A Bit! blog and is reproduced with her permission.

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101 Comments
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    Mute werejammin
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    Dec 14th 2012, 2:56 PM

    How about pledging support for the people who have to find extra money for their car and home insurance for the next decade thanks to sean quinns greed?

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    Mute Mainstream Hysteria
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:48 PM

    The only Quinn I like is the one from Irish Pictorial Weekly. The rest of them should spend the rest of their lives afraid to pick up the soap.

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    Mute Professor Mehoop
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    Dec 14th 2012, 4:05 PM

    And the taxpayer who will be paying for their actions in perpetuity.

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    Mute Nigel O'Neill
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:11 PM

    Here here! So much for the GAA being non-political

    108
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    Mute Cormac Ryan
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:00 PM

    So they have support for a man who is partly to blame for costing the country billions and then tried to illegally hide his assets meaning the country has to pick up even more of a tab! Good one GAA! Everything that is wrong with our country in one headline!

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    Mute rusty9
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    Dec 14th 2012, 11:03 PM

    Cormac, you concede that Quinn tried to hide HIS assets. Period.

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    Mute Kerry Blake
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    Dec 14th 2012, 11:54 PM

    Your point rusty9?

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    Mute Y.F.
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    Dec 15th 2012, 9:06 AM

    Kerry Blake,
    Quinn is in jail for hiding his own assets. The ownership of the foreign assets has never been established in a court of law. Anglo claim they own them, he begs to differ, and the issue won’t be solved until the pending courtcase. (Which, I’m sure you’re aware was brought back this week) Justice Dunne was ruling on the case in front of her ie. the contempt of court orders. The validity of the debt has yet to be decided on. Quinn has paid back the 455 Million of undisputed debt, and the rest is in dispute, so that is what he is in jail for….hiding his own.

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    Mute Cormac Ryan
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    Dec 15th 2012, 1:59 PM

    Yes he illegally hid his own assets in contempt of court. I or the courts would have no problem with this if he didn’t owe the state ( granted the only reason it’s the state is cause somebody stupidly gaurented Anglo on our behalf) billions of euros. Just cause you don’t agree with them does not mean you can ignore the rulings of a court or preempt the rulings of a court with illegal actions.

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    Mute Reg
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:14 PM

    Why is the GAA pledging support for someone who’s in jail for showing contempt for the laws of this country exactly?

    204
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    Mute Professor Mehoop
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    Dec 14th 2012, 4:06 PM

    Says a lot about the GAA’s ‘value system’.

    120
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    Mute Frank Cluskey
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:05 PM

    Very bad move by the GAA, nothing to do with them. they are setting a precedent that will have serious consequences

    200
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    Mute Angela Gaffney
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:22 PM

    It’s one County ….not all the gas membership….

    12
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    Mute Angela Gaffney
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:24 PM

    Meant all gaa …I don’t support him and I know many who are gaa members who don’t….

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    Mute Frank Cluskey
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    Dec 14th 2012, 6:47 PM

    agree completely angela the need to distance themselves immediately

    17
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    Mute Stephen Downey
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    Dec 14th 2012, 8:46 PM

    What are the serious consequences?

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    Mute Tomy Iona
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    Dec 14th 2012, 11:36 PM

    EVEN RYAN TUBRIDY?!!?!? Welll….. I’m now with you… that’s such an endorsement.

    If Pat Kenny gets on board now I’ll stop questioning EVERYTHING….

    Cult of personality pal….

    18
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    Mute Tomy Iona
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    Dec 14th 2012, 11:59 PM

    I’d prefer if you would reply to my other question which asks you for a link to the claims your making and stating that it’s public record.
    I’ve looked, I can see no offer.

    Back it up with something worthy, not just the doubts of an overpaid celebrity.

    6
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    Mute Kerry Blake
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    Dec 15th 2012, 12:01 AM

    Rusty every time I insure my car, my house or something of personal value. Brass neck Quinn is costing me extra. Those are the facts, No matter what you might claim. Even tonight he is costing me money as he is locked up for contempt of court. State needs to recover any money possible and hopefully lock that example of Irish business away for a long time.

    Ryan Tubridy called to the defence – infantile.

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    Mute Jason Culligan
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    Dec 14th 2012, 2:59 PM

    Cut their state funding due to the cutbacks needed to fund Quinn’s gambling. See how quick they are to voice support then.

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    Mute michael o'toole
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:37 PM

    like you Jason,
    the DUP aren’t very much in favour of “state funding” for Fermanang GAA, either,
    or for funding of the GAA in any of the Six Counties.

    111
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    Mute Professor Mehoop
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    Dec 14th 2012, 4:07 PM

    The Six Counties? Is that an official geographical term, or is it just one that SF/IRA use?

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    Mute Tomy Iona
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    Dec 14th 2012, 4:08 PM

    michael, that’s taking his comment in a light you know it wasn’t intended.

    If there’s one thing we learn from this story it’s that even thieves can manage to take advantage of the Irish addiction to (the financial equivalent of) parish pump politics.

    Hello fermanagh & cavan by the way – the red thumb is the one on the left….

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    Mute michael o'toole
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    Dec 14th 2012, 4:36 PM

    Professor:
    is “SF/IRA ” a political party, or is it just a term that ol Jim Alster & those of his ilk tend to use ?

    “The Six Counties?”
    yeah – the six counties of northeast Ireland that are still under British rule.

    Tuigeann tú anois ?

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    Mute Professor Mehoop
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    Dec 14th 2012, 4:43 PM

    Michael,

    Spoken like a true Ra head.

    Show me the map which shows that part of the British Isles officially known as the Six Counties. Only the mentally deficient would seriously think that SF and IRA are not two sides of the same ugly coin.

    Póg mehoop. Tuig that.

    29
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    Mute Tomy Iona
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    Dec 14th 2012, 4:57 PM

    To be fair, I grew up in Donegal where the term “six counties” was used a widely – by that I mean by people with all kinds of political persuasion.

    I’ve always regarded it as an abbreviation for “the 6 counties of ulster that are under british rule, not ulster on the whole which, surprisingly some dopes don’t realise has 9 counties”

    So more a case of identifying a specific 2/3rds of ulster rather than confusing the few who are unaware.

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    Mute Professor Mehoop
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:06 PM

    I thought the official name, Northern Ireland, would have had the same effect?

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    Mute Robin Pickering
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:08 PM

    Can’t they just say Northern Ireland?

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    Mute michael o'toole
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:43 PM

    ah – comon Professor
    you may not be a Professor of Geography, but –
    surely you’ve seen a map of Ireland, showing the border, that partitions our country into the Six & Twenty Counties ??

    as for your “SF/IRA”
    even the DUP & FG have largely ceased using the term.
    the PDs were fond of the term too – but, thank God, they’re no longer with us,
    but i have noticed, that like you, ol Jim Alister & the TUV tend to use it, still.

    17
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    Mute Tomy Iona
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    Dec 14th 2012, 9:53 PM

    We have to refer to everything in it’s official terminology now do we? Let’s not use semantics – it’s completely irrelevant, I said what I said because you appeared to be trying to attach the term to nationalists/republicans. I simply stated that it’s not. So why not refer to NI as the “six counties”. Or are you suggesting that there’s some hidden agenda behind calling the Killkenny team the Cats? Or Limerick/Clare being in the Mid-West or Ireland being in western europe.

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    Mute Tom Quinn
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:43 PM

    A lot of red thumbs in support of Quinn by the looks of it but none brave enough to voice an opinion. The Quinn situation in Cavan is everything that is wrong with this country. “Jail all the cute hooers that caused this economic problem, but the the cute hooer from our part of the country who we blindly think is a God!”. Its the same bloody mentality in Tipp North when it comes to the likes of Lowery. They keep voting in that cute hooer even though anyone can see he is as crooked as they come………This country is a joke and we have to wake up and stop being so stupid! Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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    Mute Matt McNamara
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:49 PM

    Well said Tom !

    38
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    Mute Y.F.
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    Dec 14th 2012, 6:15 PM

    Tom you are wrong on so many levels. You, the people who are led by the nose by the gospel according to Dukes and his cronies, are the sheep. There are no, or few animal noises coming from the border region. Fair play to the GAA for standing up to injustice, for standing by a man who is being mistreated and for not being afraid to voice their opinion in a climate where the media circus are running the country.

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    Mute _doesnotcompute
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:22 PM

    I see the red thumbs brigade are out in force, but oddly silent. Anyone care to elaborate on why they think the GAA should support this traitor?

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    Mute Begrudgy
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:38 PM

    Something very fishy about these red thumbs. ???

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    Mute Nuffsaid Thatsall
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:41 PM

    You beat me to it!! Nearly every comment is red-thumbed to green thumbed in equal measure despite most if not all comments making sense! Yet no Pro-Quinn commentary, because at the end of the day, although Quinn is being made the poster-boy for his and his cronies greedy actions in the years gone by, his actions are indefensible!!! Just local parish-pump blind faith from the Cavan Fermanagh crowd who benefited from local jobs thinking the bould Government up in Dublin took their jobs from them!!

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    Mute Frank Cluskey
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:48 PM

    jazus i thought the same meself serious red thumbs for my comment, i didnt think there was that many gombeens about the place

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    Mute Tomy Iona
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:54 PM

    The whole of Fermanagh GAA is on…..

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    Mute Frank Cluskey
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    Dec 14th 2012, 4:07 PM

    there is no doubt

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    Mute martin o connor
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    Dec 14th 2012, 4:33 PM

    Gombeen haha

    39
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    Mute Y.F.
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    Dec 14th 2012, 7:59 PM

    Does not compute
    Maybe the GAA should support him because they are not afraid to have an opinion, and to voice it, even if it means that people with a lesser knowledge on Quinn matters may take a bit of a huff about it. Maybe they haven’t forgotten the huge contribution Quinn has been to them over the last 35-40 years. Maybe the GAA have read up on the entire debacle, and read the facts, and not what has been shoved in our faces via a biased media over the last 2 years. Maybe they have read http://anglothetruth.files.wordpress.com, which would have left them with no doubt that Quinn is, not only Anglo’s, but the government and the whole countries scapegoat. Maybe the GAA have integrity and are courageous enough to stand up for someone who has been wronged and mistreated

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    Mute John lynch
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    Dec 14th 2012, 8:15 PM

    Maybe the GAA do not bleat…

    11
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    Mute John
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    Dec 14th 2012, 8:24 PM

    On behalf of the red thumbs brigade here are a couple of things for your pipe.
    1) Quinn has forever changed Cavan or the better. It used to be that our children could never hope to get jobs in Cavan. Mr Quinn has fixed that.
    2) I take it none of you live in a border county? Well we are forgotten by Dublin and Belfast, Mr Quinn has put us on the map and given us something to be proud of.
    3) it’s Anglo we should be pursuing not this great man

    I don’t honestly expect any of you smoked salmon socialists to understand but one can always hope

    35
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    Mute Tomy Iona
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    Dec 14th 2012, 9:58 PM

    I’m from a border county and I’m sorry but it’s absolute tripe to see things so blinkered.

    Quinn has bought your loyalty at the expense of the Irish taxpayer – it’s that simple. If you want to continue to delude yourself, go ahead but that’s the facts.

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    Mute rusty9
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    Dec 14th 2012, 11:12 PM

    To all the Quinn bashers, just log on the Concerned IRish Citizens facebook page or Quinn/Anglo blog spot and you will get more commentary than you are able to digest. See in particular a letter from Dr. Rory Hanley who explains effectively why people should support the Quinns. When you have read all the relevant articles, report back. and tell us why we should not support the man who created 8000 jobs, paid bililons to the Exchequer, and offered to pay the State 2.8 billion.

    19
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    Mute siobhan o mahony
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:00 PM

    The amount of red thumbs is hysterical!!! It’s hard to believe the amount of people that look up to a CRIMINAL as a hero!!! FOOLS!!

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    Mute Robin Pickering
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:12 PM

    Well said!

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    Mute rusty9
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    Dec 14th 2012, 11:01 PM

    Siobhan, Sean Quinn is not a criminal as this is a civil matter. You are going to have your eyes opened when the full truth emerges.

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    Mute Siobhan O'Mahony
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    Dec 15th 2012, 10:31 AM

    Don’t CRIMINALS go to prison???
    Where is Sean Quinn right now eh??
    Jog on!!

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    Mute Y.F.
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    Dec 15th 2012, 10:46 AM

    Siobhan,
    Your statement really proves how little you know about Quinn. He is not a criminal….it was a civil case. His punitive treatment it not unlike the treatment a criminal would get, but that does not make him a criminal…

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    Mute Siobhan O'Mahony
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    Dec 15th 2012, 11:04 AM

    Justify it how you like, he was the one that got greedy and WE are the ones to suffer because of it.
    When his JAIL TIME is done he will still have his secret stash of millions.
    WE will pay for his greed for a long time!

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    Mute cormac
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:13 PM

    Should stay well clear of politics.

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    Mute Justin Ferris
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    Dec 14th 2012, 4:08 PM

    What planet are these people living on? That man is costing the state billions. I am a hurler myself and a fan of the Gaelic games but I think the gaa have no place in politics

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    Mute rusty9
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    Dec 14th 2012, 11:08 PM

    Justin, this is not politics. Its a human rights story not just for the Quinn family but for every citizen of this country.

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    Mute Tomy Iona
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    Dec 14th 2012, 11:37 PM

    Yeah, that we’re all paying someone’s gambling debts. almost enough debt to reverse most of the budget cuts.

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    Mute Frank2521
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:26 PM

    I hope the GAA are not getting goverment grants, lotto funding,or FAS grants. I hope they have no special tax credits or reductions. Children’s allowance and other cuts are paying a percentage of the Quinns criminal activity.

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    Mute michael o'toole
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:40 PM

    Frank
    you say – “Children’s allowance and other cuts are paying a percentage of the Quinns criminal activity”

    10% correct -

    providing the ‘Quinn’ you’re referring to is called Ruairí or ‘Ho Chi Min’ .

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    Mute Begrudgy
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:23 PM

    Looks like a lot of people from Cavan and Fermanagh voting here today.

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    Mute Angela Gaffney
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:29 PM

    IM from Cavan and don’t support him ….do t understand how people can defend his blatant disregard for our justice system or how his supporters can call him a hero ..

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    Mute Stephen Nolan
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:28 PM

    The GAA in the border areas have a history of backing bad things, they are just continuing their traditions!

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    Mute Peter Lawless
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    Dec 14th 2012, 6:03 PM

    In all due respect GAA people of Fermanagh, it’s easy to see it’s not your tax money being squandered to patch up the Quinn mess.

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    Mute rusty9
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    Dec 14th 2012, 10:59 PM

    Peter, I understand where you are coming from but the reality is that SEAN QUINN AND HIS FAMILY OFFERED 2.8 BILLION TO THE STATE PLUS COMMITTED TO RETAIN ALL THE JOBS AND CREATE 1700 ADDITIONAL JOBS.
    This is a matter of public record and would have saved the taxpayer and consumer at least 5 billion. It would also have prevented any call on the Insurance Compensation Fund.

    THIS OFFER WAS THROWN IN HIS FACE BY PEOPLE WITH VESTED INTERESTS IN FAVOUR OF A STRATEGY THAT WILL NEVER SEE THE RETURN OF ONE CENT AND WILL COST US BILLIONS.

    The people of Ireland deserve to know the truth. The Quinn family have asked to appear before a Dail Com. to answer questions but were denied the opportunity to do so. The decision makers are doing everything possible to sweep the corruption at the very heart of the establishment, under the carpet but it will come out in the big case that Quinn is taking against Anglo next year when it finally comes to court.

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    Mute Tomy Iona
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    Dec 14th 2012, 11:33 PM

    Rusty – provide a link. Where is it in public record? It seems strange to me that anyone who would claim that the loans were 2.34bn would then offer to pay more than that while simultaneously trying to sue anglo over the unlawful character of the loans?

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    Mute Kerry Blake
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    Dec 14th 2012, 11:52 PM

    Tomy forget the link were is the €2.8 billion? Maybe in Russia? Quinn family a bunch of con men costing the tax payer in this country much need money in legal fees every day

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    Mute SMcB
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    Dec 15th 2012, 1:03 AM

    I’ll refer you to the following 2 posts on Boards.ie

    http://touch.boards.ie/thread/post/79993102
    http://touch.boards.ie/thread/post/79883947

    In short, the 7 year plan was waffle.

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    Mute Tomy Iona
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    Dec 15th 2012, 2:13 AM

    My point Kerry is that there appear to be two sides to this. Each side thinks the other is deluded.

    There is plenty of reliable sources out there pointing the finger of blame at Quinn while accepting that Anglo had a significant hand in there too.

    I won’t accept people using CAPS LOCK as any kind of reason to think they should be believed. Source it and it shall be considered.

    P.S. Considered does not mean accepted.

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    Mute Peter Lawless
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    Dec 15th 2012, 4:31 AM

    Rusty in all due respect if I run company A into insolvency while also squandering billions of my only other assets into worthless shares, how the bloody hell can I seriously base my survival strategy on a massive loan injection into A to support repaying my losses on the shares. Fanciful at best! The guy f@&$ed up, insurance is not a sweet shop, money in is not pure income as every cent relates to YOU guaranteeing a possible future event, due to this guarantee naturally you are required to keep big reserves to disperse should these events occur. Quinn didn’t do this so naturally his insurance business was considered worthless and therefore any guarantees or future strategies based on this worthless business non financeable. Why are people too stupid to see this

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    Mute SMcB
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    Dec 15th 2012, 10:33 AM

    In case anyone is wondering, I wrote both of the linked posts above on Boards… If any of the red thumb’ers would care to provide financial analysis on the 7 year plan, I’m all ears.

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    Mute SMcB
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    Dec 15th 2012, 2:21 PM

    Still all ears…

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    Mute siobhan o mahony
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:23 PM

    Money talks!!

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    Mute Eoin Darcy
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:44 PM

    Fact of the day!fact f. A. C. T look it up quinners

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    Mute Matt McNamara
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:26 PM

    Why are people in Northern Ireland having a say in what goes on down here in the South ???

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    Mute michael o'toole
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:44 PM

    Matt:
    if you’re from “the South”
    why are you “having a say” about what people in Fermanagh are doing ??

    because Fermanagh is one of the 32 counties of Ireland, prhaps ??

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    Mute Professor Mehoop
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    Dec 14th 2012, 4:09 PM

    Hear hear Matt.

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    Mute Professor Mehoop
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:09 PM

    There’s definitely a concerted effort by the Pro-Quinners to red-thumb and not comment on anything that doesn’t support their emperors’ cause. Wonder what organisation is helping out…? It’s brilliant to watch these bird-brains in action.

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    Mute Matt McNamara
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:46 PM

    I think the GAA – The Grab All Association should focus themselves on more worthy issues than backing a man that has helped bring this country to it knees with greed on a criminal scale.

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    Mute John
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    Dec 14th 2012, 3:52 PM

    Ah begora! To all you insufferable liberals criticising Quinn, he bought jobs and sprawling housing and ghost estates to Cavan. Ah sure so what if he stole a few billion here or there, wouldn’t you in the same situation. Before you criticise this legend, come to Cavan bring a pair of wellies, knee high muck everywhere you know, talk to us and you will see we aren’t savages that you make us out to be

    *sarcasm

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    Mute Micheal Sheridan
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    Dec 15th 2012, 8:08 AM

    John, I’m from Cavan so am I expected to be loyal to Seán Quinn because I’m from Cavan? I played GAA and all that and grew up in wellies so you cant say I didn’t live out the stereotype some people are using as *sarcasm* in here.
    I don’t disagree that he created employment in the region and had a massively positive impact on people’s lives BUT the fact is he broke the rules of the court and that’s why he’s in prison. Same way that anyone who created hundreds/thousands of jobs broke the law would end up inside for a few weeks.

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    Mute Frank2521
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    Dec 14th 2012, 4:49 PM

    John. — we the citizens of Ireland brought jobs to Cavan it seems. We subsidised all the gambling and reckless management. We are still subsidising it by cuts to caters and children’s allowance plus many more worthwhile projects that have shut as a result of greed by the Quinns , Banks, etc. The Quinns happen to be the most addicted to the money as they will go to any length to keep it like drug addicts. Even jail!!!

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    Mute rusty9
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    Dec 14th 2012, 11:14 PM

    Frank, see my comments above and refer to sites named for FACTS.

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    Mute Donal Ferrie
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:10 PM

    Are there so many Red Hands being pressed as that is the hand the associate with the most in Northern Ireland

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    Mute Tomy Iona
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    Dec 14th 2012, 11:42 PM

    Sorry Donal…. That’s the red hand of Ulster you’re talking about. that’s ULSTER with 9 counties not NI with 6 counties.

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    Mute Michael Smyth
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    Dec 14th 2012, 6:56 PM

    Cavan and Monaghan. Full of numptey’s.

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    Mute Michael Smyth
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    Dec 14th 2012, 7:03 PM

    Actually that’s a bit harsh. Monaghan people are all right

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    Mute Cpm
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:36 PM

    Are these people for real?

    To quote Jacobim Mugatu in Zoolander; ” I feel like I’m taking crazy pills! “

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    Mute Matt McNamara
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    Dec 14th 2012, 6:24 PM

    The way things are going it looks like we will have a new political party for the next general election – The GAA Party !! Love to see their manifesto :-)

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    Mute rusty9
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    Dec 14th 2012, 11:49 PM

    Matt, I do not know if the GAA will run a candidate but I will tell you one thing for certain. IF the Quinn family run members in a number of constituencies, they will have no problem being elected and whats more THEY WILL KEEP THEIR PROMISES AND WILL DELIVER ON JOBS ETC.

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    Mute Tomy Iona
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    Dec 15th 2012, 3:24 AM

    and so the financial equivalent to parish pump politics would become parish pump politics.

    hopefully it’s just a noisy minority supporting the Quinns.

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    Mute Maureen Mc Gee
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    Dec 15th 2012, 1:32 AM

    Can’t understand why you are all so down on Sean Quinn. He did bring a lot of wealth to Ireland and jobs. We all gambled during the boom and lost the run of ourselves. Does that make us greedy too? You talk about how much it is costing the taxpayer, well what is it costing us for the many people driving about in uninsured vehicles do you not think our insurance costs are higher because of them? Anyway I think Quinn is being a scapegoat because they haven’t jailed any of their cronies in the banks yet and they were the real crooks in all of this.

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    Mute SMcB
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    Dec 15th 2012, 12:35 PM

    We all gambled… Did we now? *Rolleyes*

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    Mute Maureen Mc Gee
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    Dec 15th 2012, 1:22 PM

    What I’m saying SmcB is the majority of people cashed in on the boom. I personally didn’t gamble but you can’t say it didn’t happen. The only difference is that Anglo KNEW they were in trouble well before anyone else and were hiding it. Even when the government guaranteed the banks they didn’t come clean.

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    Mute SMcB
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    Dec 15th 2012, 1:56 PM

    Anglo DID NOT force Sean Quinn to gamble on their stock. He did that of his own free will.
    The mistake Anglo made was lending him the funds to take out his CFD position as under company law ‘it is unlawful for a company to give any financial assistance in connection with the purchase or subscription of shares in that company or its holding company’. On that basis I think SQ will win his case however that does not excuse his reckless behaviour (in term of the CFD purchased) or his nonsense offer to repay the funds borrowed. Nor does it excuse his behaviour in respect of Quinn Insurance or his current contempt of court.

    Ultimately the taxpayer will pay again for Sean Quinn’s recklessness. It’s bad enough that we’re paying for Anglo and the rest of the banks.

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    Mute Y.F.
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    Dec 15th 2012, 6:06 PM

    SMcB,
    Anglo did not force Quinn to invest in their bank. You’ re right there. However, they cooked their books, and showed fictitious accounts for the bank, that made investment in it look extremely attractive. On the basis that what Quinn was investing in was false and incorrect, then one could assume that any dealings, based in these false accounts, would then become nul and void. This too, must be determined in a court of law.
    Also, the plan than Quinn put forward to repay the entire debt was perfectly viable. It was approved by the Deutsche bank and government ministers, (even Anglo, initially). However Matthew Elderfield did not want Quinn involved in the running of the companies, and the plan was ignored based on this. What we have seen since that has been the catastrophic effects of putting people who know nothing about a business into the running of said business.

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    Mute SMcB
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    Dec 15th 2012, 6:48 PM

    Would you sue the owner of a horse that turned out to be a crock of shite just because you stuck your life savings on? Quinn will get away with his recklessness because of Anglo’s stupidity. Taxpayer pays again.

    In terms of the 7 yr plan, funny you’ve chosen to ignore my post above – links are attached again http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056714200?page=13#post_79993102

    http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056707066?page=16#post_79883947

    As well as that… The CFD loan was PERSONAL debt (€2.8bil that is)… His companies would have needed to make in the order of €5.6bil to allow the Quinn Family pay back the Anglo debt alone!!! Profits paid from a company to a shareholder (individual(s) that is) are taxed at the marginal rate…. (You do know that of course?) As well as forgetting about interest, the Quinn’s forgot about tax as well….

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    Mute Y.F.
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    Dec 15th 2012, 7:49 PM

    I see no correlation between betting on a horse, and investing (through CFD’s, or otherwise) into a bank that has shown the investor fictitious and aggressively overstated bank books, which were audited yearly. Don’t you find it strange that the bank has now started investigating the auditors of the bank at the time? They know the proverbial is about to hit the fan, so they’re shifting the blame once again. The arguements on your link are lame re the viability of the plan…….things like paying back no interest etc……Do you really think that the paying back (or lack of ) the interest would have had any effect on the consideration of the plan? Don’t you think that to it would have been a better scenario with regards employment, the tax-payer footing the bill etc?

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    Mute Ru Ni Digs
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    Dec 14th 2012, 6:15 PM

    “Fermanagh’s greatest wedding band “The Wedding Banditz” plan to release a Christmas single with the proceeds going Sean Quinn and his family.The song will be the classic “Release Me”.Let’s get this to number one.So watch out Simon Cowell.”

    Disclaimer : I have no idea,whether “”The Wedding Banditz” support the Quinn’s or not??? I used there name for the purpose of the comment because it sounded better than “Wedding Knights”(both are actual wedding bands from Fermanagh) and I certainly wasn’t going to sully the good name of “Mama’s Boy’s”.

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    Mute Joe Sixtwo
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    Dec 15th 2012, 12:36 AM

    A bunch of parochial idiots supporting a disgraced dishonest person who is costing the people of this country billions.

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    Mute rusty9
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    Dec 15th 2012, 4:26 AM

    Maureen, good for you. It is nice to seeing people such as yourself not falling for the Anglo propaganda that we are all being billed for.

    The Quinn bashers are in for a real surprise when the big case runs.

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    Mute Richard Vickery
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    Dec 14th 2012, 7:09 PM

    Does anyone know how much exactly is been stolen from me to pay and all of us for this guys need for greed on insurance polices? Is it a percentage or a set amount per policy?

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    Mute Reg
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    Dec 14th 2012, 7:23 PM

    I think it’s a 2% levy……for the next 15 years or so.

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    Mute rusty9
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    Dec 15th 2012, 4:27 AM

    Sorry Maureen. My response to your comment is posted in the wrong place and can be seen a few comments above this.

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    Mute Begrudgy
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:41 PM

    I think Michael O Toole is the red button saboteur.

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    Mute Gerry Campbell
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    Dec 14th 2012, 5:23 PM

    Says it all.

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    Mute Philip Howlin
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    Dec 15th 2012, 12:53 AM

    So much for GAA being neutral

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    Mute padraig
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    Dec 16th 2012, 1:17 PM

    Sad. Quinn never made a profit, and the claim that the reserves were set higher for them is beside the point. There was a call elsewhere on all the money in the accounts from other parts of the group. This was a Ponzi scheme.

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    Mute SMcB
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    Dec 16th 2012, 4:40 PM

    I wish you the best of luck explaining that to the Quinnites… Financial literacy is not one of their strong points.

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