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EINSTEIN ONCE SAID:
Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
Einstein, one of the most intelligent people of all time, said this but the Irish education system doesn’t believe him. They are basing everything on good grades rather than on ability.
There is a severe lack of easily accessible courses in 2017. People say that if you can’t get into a level 8 course, then study the subject part-time or as a level 7. But this isn’t really possible either.
Grades define your path in life, and not your ability
I got 225 points in my Leaving Cert. I got an A1 in History and a C1 in higher-level English. Despite my excellent ability in English and History, it was my grades in Maths, Irish and French that dragged me down, and prevented me from getting into any level 8 courses in media.
I have never had good mathematical skills but have always excelled at writing and being confident on camera. A lot of people are similar to me. They aren’t academically smart, but excel in other areas.
At the moment I am doing a PLC in media in the hopes of getting into a media course afterwards. But my chances are looking more and more grim because of the high entry requirements needed.
To get into college you need three distinctions in three modules if you are applying for level 8 courses from a PLC. It’s ridiculous in 2017, that grades define your path in life, and not your ability.
I always hated school
I always hated school because I always had that feeling of not being “good enough”. I used to be lectured to about my poor work in Maths, Science, Irish and French.
You might say what relevance is that? Well if you wanted to study Chemical Engineering and you always liked Science and Maths but you were horrible at English and Irish, would you like it if, because of your poor skills in subjects irrelevant to the course you’re studying for, you couldn’t get into the course?
The way the system is structured now means that universities and colleges relies too heavily on grades, rather than aptitude for the course you are applying for.
Other systems
The education system in the United Kingdom is done so much more efficiently, where at age 16 you can choose three subjects to study for your A-levels and just do exams specifically on those three specific subjects rather than being forced to study subjects you don’t do well in.
This is a lot more of a practical approach than what Ireland is doing at the minute, where you are graded on your top six subjects. Three exams is a lot less subject matter to remember. And you can focus on your best subjects.
This is a much fairer system. It may not be perfect, as the A-levels go into a lot more details in the topics you choose than the Leaving Certificate would.
But at least in the British educational system you can get into university based on subjects that are relevant for the degree you want to pursue.
I’m not a lazy student complaining about the system
I’m a hardworking student who wants to get a degree but is coming up against roadblocks and brick walls. All I want to do is get a degree, so I can work with prestigious companies in the future and not be held down by my lack of qualifications the rest of my life.
The fact is that if I can’t get into college in September, I will have to emigrate to England, along with hundreds of others who can’t get into college either. This is basically robbing Irish companies of young talent.
Too restrictive
This is my plea to the Irish Government. Make the entry requirements more relevant to the courses we are applying for. Right now the system is far too restrictive for college applicants.
Our current system favours people who are academically smart. But what about everyone else?
Just because you aren’t academically smart doesn’t mean you’re stupid. It just means you’re intelligent in other areas.
Declan Lavin is from Kildare. He’s currently doing a PLC with hopes of pursuing a degree and career in the media.
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I failed Irish and Maths in the Leaving. Growing up in Darndale and West Tallaght our expectations were never meant to be high. The comprehensive school prepared us all for factory jobs or the dole. I’ve experienced both. However years later I paid my own way through university when an offer was made. My most recent achievement is a masters degree. Hard work but if I can do it then anyone can.
So the education you reviewed between 4 and 16 gave you the skills to take you from the dole to a masters degree? That could be construed as a sign of a bloody good education system.
Sean you misinterpret my main points. Academia is mostly an alien construct to those of us who grew up in poverty. Minimum wage is the usual pinnacle achieved beyond unemployment. When many teachers judged me as lacking potential I took on that worldview for a long time. I didn’t go from the dole to a masters. I worked prior to starting university. There was no BTEA allowance for me. First I completed PLC courses. A degree was next. Afterwards an honours degree and the latest a masters. I’ve also a qualification for my previous plumbing trade and have spent many years doing other physical less skilled work. This I enjoyed and sometimes miss now that I am deemed a professional in my workplace. My recent academic qualifications do not make me a better person than those without. My poor early schooling did not prepare me for third level and beyond. Hard work and a belief that I could did.
Oh and I worked all through university. Needs must as I wasn’t privileged like many of my classmates in Trinners.
@Keith Wizzy: Well done Keith:)
Thank you Damien. As I said if I can anyone can. Fortunately mature students are considered from age 23 onwards. My crap Leaving Certificate showing a lack of algebra equation skills and no interest in Peig Sayers never defined me.
You’re some man for the old topless selfies too Keith
Whatever turns you on Joe x
You’ll probably make more as a plumber to be fair. I know I’m going to sound like a whiny, privileged bitch but I went to a public school and teachers never discussed any route OTHER than university. Years later I had my Masters applying for entry level work that paid €22k a year while friends who went straight into an apprenticeship were making twice that. I’m in Australia now and much happier but the problem with education and early careers in Ireland runs much deeper than nonsensical entry requirements for universities. We need better technical colleges and also stop pressuring kids into university if they don’t want to go.
As long as teachers unions hold the country to ransom not much will change unfortunately. Only the students suffer while both government and teachers claim to have their interests at heart.
@Keith Wizzy: This country does not listen to the learners. OECD figures show us that we have shockingly different educational outcomes for learners both in the same school and in different schools, depending on their socio-economic background.
We need an overhauled education system based on equity – the Finnish did it, so can we. And while we are at it, one that is less based on authoritarianism, rote learning and preparing for exams – lower order thinking that learners have consistently criticised in government consultations – our schools are mostly horrible places for learners – is anybody listening?
Grades should determine your future.
If we gave people qualifications based on intelligence or “ability” alone, not work ethic, it’d be a trainwreck.
Working hard to get good results shows dedication and commitment – vital for any career. The premise of this article makes no sense.
It’s true that in other European countries the grade system is different. You need to be good at what you want to study and need high grades in that specifically. Also that the assessment is continuous and lot of work is project based and oral exams in things like history and even Maths. Ireland probably produces the worlds best crammed but it doesn’t reflect real life in the working world. I’ve been through masters & degrees and Nothing was as ridiculously as tough as the leaving. Doing 5 hours of exams in 2 totally different subjects in one day, only to go home and study for 2 more the next. I dread when my kids reach that age
@Malachi: The system grades you on your ability for rote learning at the moment. What does this have to do with work ethic. You need to reward people for ability and understanding, but the system doesn’t do that.
Totally agree with you there, dedication and commitment is so important, and I truly believe if you want something you’ll get it if you’re commited. I went back to college as a mature student at 30. I was studying 12 to 14 hours a day, 4 years later I have an honours degree and a good job, it was hard but well worth it that’s for sure, something nobody can take off me.
@david
What does rote learning have to do with work ethic? Are you asking that question unironically?
Listen, hard work is rewarded by the Leaving Cert, not necessarily just rote learning. That’s the way it should be.
Your future career should be determined by the effort you put in in school, not by some ‘natural ability’ you were born with.
Throw a gifted but lazy mathematician into the hardest maths course in the country and they’ll drop out within months. Ability is a terrible criterium by which to select students (except in special cases like the Med Entry system which combines academic work ethic and intelligence).
@Malachi: If you are not good at maths or languages no hard work in the world will make you an A level student in those subjects. You might pass in pass but the poinst arnt worth much. It also depends on the teacher you have. I was a honours maths student for the junior cert within two years and a different teacher I was struggling with pass maths and I works very hard.
@Malachi: and in no way shape or form does a grade determine your future at 18 years of age. Their is always a way if you want it bad enough.
In Belgium you can enter any university course regardless of your performance in secondary school. I know plenty people who had bad grades but later on entered medicine, engineering etc and did very well. If I follow your logic, these guys should never have been allowed in. I don’t see why they shouldn’t have been. And just look up how our universities are doing. The only advantages I see in the Irish system is cost containment for the state and maybe more efficiency but these are not necessarily better for students.
@koen
I have no idea what Belgium’s system is, but in Ireland and in most places there are limited places for desirable courses such as Medicine, Engineering, etc.
Labs and lecture theatres can only hold so many people, thus there has to be a selection criteria by which select students to fill the course.
Choosing these students based on their grades is the most sensible option as they are far more likely to stick the course in the long term because they have demonstrated academic ability.
Rote learning means you can work faster and more efficiently as you have learned techniques, knowledge and skills ‘off by heart’ so you don’t have to repeatedly stop to check things.
Letting someone work to their strength isnt the same as the situation you describe
To me its more parroting of knowledge without the ability to use it
@ SEAN. Rote learning does not teach you techniques, bar mathematics. The rest is regurgitation of the facts presented. It’s a load of bollox.
Sorry im hitting reply but the comments aren’t associated with what im answering
“If you are not good at maths or languages no hard work in the world will make you an A level student in those subjects”
This simply isn’t true. I failed my maths pre for the Junior Cert HL, and through hard work alone managed to get an A grade in LC HL.
The same applies for languages – dedication will pay off.
It’s too often I hear people say “I’m no good at x” when what they mean is “I haven’t worked hard enough at x”.
I call BS on your statement mate. You need to consider what the purpose of ‘education’ is?
Is it to teach an individual to think for themselves and understand the collective knowledge amassed by the human race to date, affording them an appreciation of lifelong learning and also the necessary skills to live a fulfilling life and career? Or is its function to cram a shopping list of ‘facts’ into their heads (with no regard to the individuality of people), and require them to regurgitate said ‘facts’ in a stressful test environment and usually at a young age, a test that can often alter the life trajectory of young people who have barely just arrived at adulthood? To then use such a nonsensical memory test as a gate that dictates further study options, impacts on lifelong career potential and so on? Is that fair? – that I should be held at metaphorical gunpoint and at an age of minimal life experience and burdened with this nonsense? That’s the antithesis of instilling a love of learning in people IMO. You should do a quick Google on Finland and Singapore and see how they are tackling education, especially Singapore as they are currently perfecting educational ‘streams’ to tailor learning to the individual. After that take a look at their PISA rankings…
In many countries they have massive numbers in year 1 in uni and then huge fallout in year 2 as many don’t pass exams. Anyone gets a crack at a subject. Many courses such as medicine have an entrance exam. Imagine how great it could be if you could just do an entrance exam for your subject! Use more time at school to teach real life and working skills
Agree Phil. Plus facts are now redundant in our digital age where anyone can google. We don’t need to regurgitate anymore we need to understand and problem solve
@LidLicker
What statement are you calling BS on?
@LidLicker
By the way, there are plenty of leaving cert subjects that aren’t “memory tests”. Try going into a LCHL maths/app maths/chemistry/physics exam with load of rote learned facts and zero understanding – it’ll only take you so far.
Doing well in the LC requires both learned off facts and understanding of concepts, how much of each depends heavily on the subjects you choose.
Rote learning teaches you what to think, not how to think…
Force-feeding information to children does not promote creativity or critical thinking, and both of these skills are requirements for the modern world of work
@Malachi
I’m calling BS on two things:
1. Your overall statement
2. The point you made about the premise of the article
The Irish educational system (and many others too) needs to be restructured to meet the needs of the modern world
What?
The premise of the article – i.e. the title given here – is absolutely and utterly flawed.
Am I seriously to believe that you think ability should govern who is selected for college courses rather than grades obtained in state examinations?
You think that someone who is lazy but gifted should get into medicine over someone who got the points?
That’s absolutely absurd. Grades reflect hard work – yes many people rote learn but here’s the reality check – in college STEM courses, especially the health sciences, you won’t get by on ability alone.
For example, for medicine you do anatomy modules – a module dedicated *entirely to rote learning*. It’s need-to-know information and they expect you to have it off by heart – the most gifted student around is useless if they don’t know their stuff.
Same with pharmacy, dentistry. Same with many health sciences and science in general. Yes you need to understand the content to do well but that isn’t enough by itself.
225 points, A1 + C1 in two subjects means your next best four results got you maybe 75 points?? Hardworking student you say?? Shush up snowflake
The points system is an excellent measure of a students ability and reflects the dedication and hard work which is put in to achieve the necessary points for college entry. It can be far more difficult for a student from the lower socio economic group to get this far due to pressures of funding and an environment conducive to good study practices in the run up to the leaving cert. For this reason any student who gets the required points should not have their future jeopardised by not having the right connections or having to interview for their required course. I feel the only people complaining about the points system are the well heeled who find that their influence can not get their less well qualified offspring a place in a course suited to their “position” in society. I think I would be happier seeing a doctor or solicitor who was there based on their ability rather than their parentage.
Well said. I couldn’t agree more.
Is the grades not showing your ability to learn over a spectrum of different subjects and this would impact on later forms of studying by showing how apt you are at studying???
It seems, Mr. Lavin, that your major gripe shouldn’t be with the LC or the SEC who run it, but with the CAO and the 3rd Level Colleges.
Hello to everyone,
seems i confused a lot of people with what i meant by this article so heres some bullet points of the main things i meant by writing this and points to clear things up:
- The points from the Leaving Certificate should be more focused and practical/relevant in what they require e.g. if you want to get a history degree you should have at least got a C1 in history in the leaving cert along with 200 points let’s say, for a level 7, and 300 for a level 8
- Yes i only got 225 points A1 and C1 in history and english, as i said my maths, language and science skills were terrible because i naturally find them hard to understand from a learning difficulty called Dyspraxia and a sub-condition of that called dyscalculia, and maths, french and business were the subjects i did worst in ( all language and maths based)
- There should be more level 7 courses for media, not media production, but just media, as there is mainly just media production courses, which as good as they are, have alot of science and mathemetical based modules in them which would be difficult for someone who has good writing and camera skills but poor maths and science skills to do!
Hopefully cleared any confusion up! thanks for all the feedback on my first published article! looking forward to your feedback on my articles in the future!
@Declan Lavin:
“as i said my maths, language and science skills were terrible because i naturally find them hard to understand from a learning difficulty called Dyspraxia and a sub-condition of that called dyscalculia,”
Then you should’ve qualified for the DEAR scheme, which lets you into college courses at much lower points. 225 points and the DEAR scheme for dyscalculia should’ve been enough for access into a media course at a third level institution – not sure why you didn’t get in…?
@Malachi: *DARE scheme, apolgies
@Malachi: I did qualify for DARE but not all colleges do DARE! the ones that do have DARE don’t have the course I want! IT Carlow has their own scheme of it called the Carlow Access Programme! but their limit is 20 points! and the course I wanted was 275+ I still needed the 2 C1′s at a HL subject, which I didn’t get!
@Declan Lavin: Yeah, colleges that don’t do DARE have their own specific access scheme, but some colleges are better than others for that and it seems you were very unlucky in your case. It’s not fair that you were excluded from the course you wanted due to factors beyond your control.
I think what you should really be arguing for is reform of the DARE scheme rather than anything else. The idea that you should base college entry on “ability” rather than hard work and dedication is still flawed – employers don’t care how “able” you are, they want to know how hard you’ll work!
@Malachi: yeah I screwed up on my main point, which is for more relevant entry requirements to be able to get in, because at the minute as I said I am doing well in my plc, but if I only get 2 distinctons (80% or more) and 6 merits ( 60% or more) I won’t get into college again! a reform on DARE and the entry requirements for colleges would be more beneficial!
@Declan Lavin: Certainly agree that the DARE needs to be looked at, should be mandatory for all third level institutions. A 20 point maximum for serious academic disabilities is nonsensical.
As for entry requirements being more relevant, I agree. As you said in your article, the British system is a way around this seeing as their subject choices are far more refined.
Good luck in your attempts to get your course!
It’s completely ridiculous that grades in non related subjects to the course you’re interested in are used to judge whether you do that course. I mean are Irish, Geography or French at Leaving Cert level really a good indication of potential ability for STEM courses. I only mention those because they were the ones I knew I could pick up points on for Electronic Engineering. We need to cut the amount of subjects and make the LC more focused. You can’t get rid of grades though. Continuous assessment might be a way forward but it still needs to be measured.
@James: Spot on.
Trim down the number of subjects, change the mandatory subjects. But grades are still what we should base college entry on.
As I stated, Google Singapore’s policies and see how they are committed to adapting their system beyond just regular ‘old skool’ grading.
‘It’s ridiculous in 2017 that grades, and not your ability, define your path in life.’
I had a similar problem where my Irish was so weak that it was looking grim to get science in university. In the end I got 485 points and a D3 in ordinary Irish and barely managed to get in even though I cleared the points barrier comfortable and never used Irish again. It’s crazy that my ability to speak Irish might have locked me out of my career now as a geologist living in Australia.
As mentioned earlier, take a look at some of the amazing policies being introduced in Singapore across all levels. The section on tertiary level aptitude-based admissions is very relevant to the discussion on here. Ireland, take note.
I’m still struggling to see how anyone can advocate for an aptitude based system.
Instead of choosing entrants based on their grades – something a student can work hard to change – you want them to be chosen based on aptitude, something they may be lacking in through no fault of their own.
How is that fair?
Did you read the entire article?
Now read the below article:
http://www.bbc.com/news/education-38212070
Then tell me that their system is flawed. Ireland could learn a thing or two from them. The results speak for themselves.
What do excellent academic results from 15-year-olds in Singapore have to do with the fact that having a college entry system based on aptitude rather than grades is fundamentally unfair?
What point are you trying to make? My argument is about college selection criteria, not about standards of education for teenagers.
I’ll ask again, did you read both articles?
The point is that other countries are already looking at alternative ways to accommodate the vastly different needs and skill-sets of students and enabling multi-faceted approaches to gaining entry to appropriate third level courses. Which, as Declan pointed out in the article, is an issue in the Irish system, and one that scuppered him initially.
What value is there in a system that obstructs students who may be poor at one subject, but may excel in another? It undermines their potential to pursue a career they may flourish in. It’s ridiculous. Now again, I urge you, research what policies Singapore are pursuing and tell me (1) you see no sense in them, and (2) there’s no connection to the original article.
Yes, I’ve read both articles…
Your point about students who excel in some subjects but not others is completely valid – it needs to be accommodated. This is why I’d advocate cutting the number of LC subjects taken (currently 7, and 6 counted for points) down nearer to the A-level system of 2 or 3. This would allow people to focus on their skill set.
The way around the problem is NOT to base college admissions on aptitude. Nobody chooses not to be born with intelligence or a gift in a certain subject. Essentially, adding in aptitude tests is adding in an element of a genetic lottery. Intelligence over grades is silly.
When you have limited college spaces, they should go to the people who are most willing to work hard – this is shown by academic performance, not by how you score on a logic test.
Singapore may well have a great early education system and their 15 year olds seem to be doing very well indeed, but it doesn’t excuse the fact that selecting entrants based on aptitude is fundamentally unfair.
Do you believe in the principle of equality of opportunity? Standardised state examinations ensure a level playing field from the word go – nearly anyone from nearly any background can get the course they want with enough hard graft.
This is one of the basic principles of Western civilisation – hard work should be rewarded. A meritocracy is the only way to structure a society – aptitude screening is diametrically opposed to meritocratic ideals.
We agree then, in part. But why can’t there be a blend of grades AND a spectrum of other credentials?
I’m not suggesting that the doors should be flung open to all, just suggesting that there are better, more modern approaches that are more in-tune with the zeitgeist.
In my opinion, the Irish system does not appear to consider education as an evolving journey. OK, it does to an extent, but look at the system outlined in those articles, it nurtures the student from the early stages of academia. It offers avenues for the student to explore their skills and figure out their talents along said journey. It guides the student along a meaningful and streamlined path and then offers a number of entry points to prove their worth to gain entry to a valid and suitable third level course. It also allows time for students to adapt, offering fast-track streams for more advanced students, while accommodating the slower-paced students.
The Irish system in comparison appears to lack any cohesion. It staggers along, with zero bridges between each stage (primary, secondary, tertiary). The final link between secondary and tertiary being the most ridiculous link of all: a collection of numbers based mostly on unrelated teats to the intended area of study. The whole system should be scrapped and built from the ground up, it’s a system that was built for a world that no longer exists.
And I can already here the naysayers stating that the resources don’t exist etc etc. BS I say. We just bailed the country out of billions of debt. If something is desired enough, it can be done. We just don’t care enough at the moment.
One more article of possibilities to reflect on:
https://asiancorrespondent.com/2017/01/singapore-21st-century-education-superpower/
“Why can’t we have a blend of grades AND other credentials”
Ok – then you’re not looking for what they have in Singapore. Read your first link again – it has a graphic on aptitude testing and states that science/health science Universities can now take up to 50% of their students based on aptitude *alone*. It also mentions securing places in other diploma courses without sitting any exams.
That’s not a blend of anything – that’s disregarding grades altogether which is an absolutely horrific idea. We already have a blended approach to some college courses here already, notably medicine, where excellent academic results and a high aptitude test score are both required to get into any med school. Aptitude tests are being considered for some of the other health sciences also.
This is mostly to ensure nobody can rote learn their way to being a doctor, which is fine with me – it’s safer for patients if their doctor isn’t just confined to academic smarts.
Apart from that, though, I really don’t see the need for aptitude based selection. I can’t see why the most dedicated individuals don’t deserve a spot in the course over anyone else. Letting people glide into a course based on natural ability is not the way to things.
Ah here. I got a B2 in English and I didn’t feel it was anything special. You can’t admit a student is bad academically and then in the same breath overlook this in their pursuit of continuing in academia as though they’re unrelated.
Hello readers!
Seems to be alot of confusion towards the article, i’d like to just leave some points clearing stuff up:
- What i meant by i would like them to make it a fairer system is i would like the colleges to make the entry requirements for getting into a college more relevant. Example: you want to study a history degree, the entry requirements should be a C1 in Higher level history for a level 8 along with 300 points, or an A3 at least, in pass history along with 200 points for a level 7
- Yes i only got 225 points in my leaving cert, A1 in History and C1 in English! as i said i naturally find maths, science and language based subjects difficult not because i am lazy, but because i have a learning difficulty called Dyspraxia and a sub condition of that is Dyscalculia. That means, basically, that those topics are like a foreign language to me and are very hard to learn. It’s no coincidence that my worst grades came from French, Business and Maths.
- I want more Media level 7 degree courses so i could get a degree! not media production just media!
Hope that’s a lot of confusion cleared up! thank you for all the feedback on my first published article! looking forward to your feedback in the future!
@Declan Lavin: Sorry to hear your situation, I was in a a similar situation but different outcome. I got less than 200 in the mocks and decided to put the head down and study every single day until the leaving. As I had dyslexia and dyspraxia I found many things difficult like yourself difficult (english and french). I eventually got 380 (out of 480) from 3 higher and 3 lower subjects and was trilled. But it’s only because I wanted to work hard to get there.
Got my dream Bachelors degree through DARE (as I was 10 points short) and after 4 years I got a first, which has lead to my dream masters being accepted last week. This was part of the system that accepted that was being less restrictive for me for someone with a harder background.
I found that the vast majority of people who actually put in a large amount of time studying and working hard did achieve good grades, which is reflected by leaving cert points.
@Richard Moloney: I got accepted to DARE 2 years ago, but I chose to study business, being naïve, I thought it would be interested, dropped out after 2 months as I was failing the maths tests! I have to fill out everything for DARE all over again this year again, which is annoying! as I am doing a plc now though to get into college I have got 2 distinctions so far and I just need one more, I just don’t know which one it is, because some modules don’t offer a lot of feedback! which is what has me worried! good to hear DARE worked! I agree with you on DARE disagree on the LC, as my parents paid over 4 grand over the 6 years of school specifically for grinds just so I could pass maths, only got a D3 at the end of it all, despite all my studying and practice! hopefully thanks to the plc though, I will get into college, as I find, I am getting on better at a plc because I’m doing it in media and there is only one science based module, the rest is computer, writing and camera based, so I feel the plc for me is a much fairer option!
@Declan Lavin: But each subject like being a doctor or solicitor or anything else is based on understanding and the ability to use english to communicate in another english language as each subject uses english like another language as solicitors can prove?
The key to anything is understanding and being able to show this to others?
Hello readers!
Seems to be alot of confusion towards the article, i’d like to just leave some points clearing stuff up:
- What i meant by i would like them to make it a fairer system is i would like the colleges to make the entry requirements for getting into a college more relevant. Example: you want to study a history degree, the entry requirements should be a C1 in Higher level history for a level 8 along with 300 points, or an A3 at least, in pass history along with 200 points for a level 7
- Yes i only got 225 points in my leaving cert, A1 in History and C1 in English! as i said i naturally find maths, science and language based subjects difficult not because i am lazy, but because i have a learning difficulty called Dyspraxia and a sub condition of that is Dyscalculia. That means, basically, that those topics are like a foreign language to me and are very hard to learn. It’s no coincidence that my worst grades came from French, Business and Maths.
- I want more Media level 7 degree courses so i could get a degree! not media production just media!
Hope that’s a lot of confusion cleared up! thank you for all the feedback on my first published article! looking forward to your feedback in the future!
Each year the grades for chosen subjects change, which means that one year you could “make it” and the next year maybe not – which is blatantly unfair. I have no problem with having to reach a minimum grade to pass the leaving cert (for example) but after that it should be a level playing field and other criteria used to evaluate whether you should get into medicine, nursing, teaching or computers or whatever your chosen career is. Getting 1001 points in the leaving does not make you a better doctor or teacher…
Thankfully there are ways through though, Certificate and Diploma and on to a Degree through the colleges of further education and mature student programs….
When will the Irish schools system wake up and stop making points the be-all and end-all of education. I well remember telling my children that exams do not measure how thoughtful, honest, caring or hard working they were and these are much much more important then a few measly points gained in a few hours in an examination center.
@Niall Ó Cofaigh: “Each year the grades for chosen subjects change, which means that one year you could “make it” and the next year maybe not – which is blatantly unfair”
Exam results are standardised using the bell-curve, so that grades usually don’t differ wildly from year to year. In essence, if you got a “hard” paper the year you did an LC subject, and everyone else found it hard, your grade would be adjusted to reflect this. This is fair.
“Getting 1001 points in the leaving does not make you a better doctor or teacher…”
No. But there are limited places in these courses, so it makes sense that colleges would want students who are more likely to be able to cope with the content and stick out the 3/4/5+ years required to graduate.
“I have no problem with having to reach a minimum grade to pass the leaving cert (for example) but after that it should be a level playing field and other criteria”
What ‘other criteria’ do you have in mind?
3 distinctions in a PLC is fairly easy. Perhaps just in my course it is, but really, with subjects like communications and work experience that require very little effort I don’t see how three distinctions is tough!
Declan, just move to the UK – far more opportunities there. I never even bothered with the leaving certificate, nor done a university degree yet I’m starting an MSc in September.
Snowflakes lol
As a student I recall teachers constantly instilling fear in us with loaded statements about Leaving Cert achievements, honours Math this and honours that… They made comments about failure, messing up your life, or the LC being the most important landmark in your life aside from marriage…?! What kind of message is that to send out to young minds? And guess what? – my LC is irrelevant to my life now, so why was all the scaremongering necessary back then?
I have worked in the entertainment business for going on 20 years and all the jobs I done while in that industry I got true people I knew. Not education papers or degrees. It’s rife in most industry’s. Make friends and branch out. Now after 20 years in the entertainment industry I can tell you this. It didn’t really matter because the agent lost his bladder on the aeroplane!!!!!
CON Air!!!!
Notwithstanding Einstein never said that, 3 A levels have a lot more detail than the writer thinks. There’s a lit more going on here than just our education system.
Hello readers!
Seems to be alot of confusion towards the article, i’d like to just leave some points clearing stuff up:
- What i meant by i would like them to make it a fairer system is i would like the colleges to make the entry requirements for getting into a college more relevant. Example: you want to study a history degree, the entry requirements should be a C1 in Higher level history for a level 8 along with 300 points, or an A3 at least, in pass history along with 200 points for a level 7
- Yes i only got 225 points in my leaving cert, A1 in History and C1 in English! as i said i naturally find maths, science and language based subjects difficult not because i am lazy, but because i have a learning difficulty called Dyspraxia and a sub condition of that is Dyscalculia. That means, basically, that those topics are like a foreign language to me and are very hard to learn. It’s no coincidence that my worst grades came from French, Business and Maths.
- I want more Media level 7 degree courses so i could get a degree! not media production just media!
Hope that’s a lot of confusion cleared up! thank you for all the feedback on my first published article! looking forward to your feedback in the future!
Einstein never said that….it’s an urban myth.
have your say