@dave I understand he is pushing despite Labour.

So long as the unborn don’t get a choice. Nice logic there

It’s not logic, it’s just fact.

Michael if the unborn doesn’t get a choice then the woman doesn’t get a choice. IMO if someone is going to be allowed a choice it’s the sentient, conscious, nociceptive, walking, talking, able-to-decide woman.

When a pregnant woman goes to the doctor, there are 2 patients.

If the doctor did something that affected that child, he would be sued.

No one is arguing that doctors should break the current law. We’re arguing that the law is wrong and should be changed. Do you not understand the distinction?

Check out the gates… Not usually casually thrown open when a protest is in full swing.

Well spotted Auntie!

Anti-choicers have a very interesting history when it comes to stock photos as explained here:

http://redlemonade.blogspot.ie/2012/07/terms-and-conditions-tear-your-ads-apart_25.html

Youth Defence are made up of old and middle aged religious fanatics and young brainwashed kids.

Some warped people giving thumbs down to your comment. Idiots. They hide behind a thumb rather than explain why they dis agree.

Disgusting comment I feel. If people don’t want to have children keep there legs closed. It’s called education. Children should always be wanted in the world especially in Ireland given are small population. Abortion should not be a method of population control or an escape for poor education. Abortion should only be used in unlawful cases ie: rape, incest, risk to life etc…

“If people don’t want to have children keep there legs closed” I’m guessing you’re not in a long term relationship, because sex is a healthy and natural part of being close to a partner. If you only had sex when you felt ready to become a parent, relationships would definitely suffer for it.

“Children should always be wanted in the world especially in Ireland given are small population” Outlawing abortion will not make children more wanted. Access to contraceptives and sex education will make all children wanted. I’m assuming you campaign on these issue?

Also, if you care about wanted children, maybe you should read the editorial today about children who are unable to be adopted. I’m assuming you campaign on that issue?

Disgusting comment I feel. If people don’t want to have children keep there legs closed. It’s called education. Children should always be wanted in the world especially in Ireland given are small population. Abortion should not be a method of population control or an escape for poor education. Abortion should only be used in unlawful cases ie: rape, incest, risk to life etc…
Il also say to you men are not the fault of the abortion issue in Ireland as you seem to be making out and I take as a sexists dig at men from you. Another point I’d make to you is Ireland does stand up for women as you should know the “system”is heavily in women’s favour in this country.

I mentioned absolutely nothing about men. I’m not going to debate gender equality with you, except to note that no, actually, giving everyone but pregnant women a right to bodily integrity is in no way “stacking the system in women’s favour”

“Abortion should not be an escape for poor education?” Ah. So you don’t advocate for comprehensive sex education and people who get pregnant anyway (due to lack of knowlege), it’s just tough because people shouldn’t have sex without wanting to reproduce? Again, I really assume you’re not married. Healthy long term relationships include sex and no couple should have to forego closeness in that way because they’re unable or unwilling to have a child.

“keep there legs closed. It’s called education”

I must remember that the next time I’m teaching technical graphics. It’ll be a short lesson, mostly taken up with the use and spelling of:
they’re
there &
THEIR

Tech graphics … your ma must be proud
all that money she spent on education and you still can’t demonstrate cognition beyond that of a 5 year old

Nail on the head there Joe, these expert groups and constitutional conventions are little more then stall tactics born out of the fact that when it comes to social policies, the Labour Party and Fine Geal are like oil and water.
If there was the political will for it, we could have referenda on abortion and marriage equality along side the Children’s rights referenda but Labour don’t want to create division with their coalition partners.

the choice is there Patricia – http://www.ryanair.com or http://www.aerlingus.com to name but two options

Hi, G, you should check out http://www.abortionsupport.org.uk. It’s an amazing charity which helps the multitude of women who can’t afford to travel. Abortion in Ireland is an economic issue and you seem incredibly ignorant of your privilege to just insist that women can travel easily enough. Do you have any idea how much people are suffering financially at the minute?

I certainly wouldn’t be against people being financial assisted to travel, I think that is only fair given the different financial backgrounds of people wishing to travel.

Your lack of empathy is astounding, G!!

She probably doesn’t even know what the sign is for.

She is a model employed by nut jobs with money to hold that sign!

And I persume you know that if she is pregnant at 17 there will be risk to her life by continuing pregnancy or are you advocating abortion as birth control?

@lorcmul I only ever hear pro lifers say that abortion is used as birth control. You know many women that prefer an uncomfortable operation to the pill or condoms?

It’s widely used in Russia and Japan as birth control, I doubt it’s used like that in Ireland due to the cost.

Yes, I’m sure many women think “should I take my pill or should I shell out money to have an expensive and uncomfortable medical procedure in another country where the people I love can’t support me and I will possibly be shamed by people I know as well as randomers on the street?” Difficult decision clearly.

They’re not comparing it to taking a pill Nick.

Alot of men seem to have strong views in favour of abortion . Is this because abortion relieves you of your obligation as a father.

I’m a woman, so no, actually, I support abortion access because I believe I should be the only one who decides if another person uses my body. Are you a man?

And actually, you’re ignoring all recorded data which shows that support for abortion rights is fairly identical between genders. Nice try, though.

@nellysroom many times I have read pro-lifers say that it abortion is used as a radical form of contraceptive which is completely against the mean of what contraception is. I have discussed abortion with many rational pro-lifers and their arguments are well reasoned and persuasive. I have also attempted discussions on abortion with radical pro-lifers and their arguments are insensitive, inflammatory, often without a scientific or rational basis and extremely judgemental and biased. Their argument comes across as a passion driven quasi fundamentalist illogical forceful diatribe which is quite frankly disturbing.

Many times I have seen Nick on here trying to rationally discuss the argument and have an irrationality thrown back at him. Saying what you said to Nick is quite insulting if he was a father or is planning to be a father. I suppose brothers, uncles, male friends opinions do not count? I firmly believe that it is a womans right to chose what she does with her own body in her own country and that no government, NGO, charitable organisation, religous organisation or group of well funded quasi religious fanatics should be able to influence what she does. That is my opinion as a man, a brother, an uncle, a son and grandson.

@Nick Damn those avatar photos on iphones are tiny! Sorry for pro-masculating you :)

It’s fine, I do happen to have the most masculine name of all time! But yes, there seems to be this idea that men can’t possibly support abortion because they prioritise the women they love…

Conor you claim to be Christian but support abortion. That does not stack up at all.

@bpdeasy Where did I say I support abortion? Where did I say I am pro-abortion?

Personnally I do not like or want abortion, the unwanted child can be given for adoption if the mother doesnt want it as there are a lot of people who would like to have a baby that cannot.

I am pro-choice because I believe a womans right to her body is her own and should not be dictated to by anything and religion in particular. I do not want any woman forced to go through a pregnancy she does not want. I do not want any woman forced to go the UK to have an abortion because our government won’t provide her with the mechanism to do it here.

Being a christian requires more than just blind adherance to dogma and doctrine and gospels that were written by and preached by men. Empathy and compassion are core, and the treatment of everyone equally, man and woman like.

bpdeasy you are quick to judge without thinking aren’t you. You sound just like the dogmatic catholics I mainly ignore. Try thinking for yourself for a change.

Hi, bpdeasy, as a Christian who supports gay marriage and abortion (as does my Christian religion), I think you should stop hearing “Christian” as “Catholic.” It makes you seem very small minded.

@ Stephen Maybe do a little more research before making blanket statements about other countries. Russia is hardly a country anyone should be holding up as an example for well frankly anything and as for Japan oral contraceptions such as the pill were illegal until 2010 thus creating a very different situation to what one finds in other countries….amazing the difference facts can make, isn’t it? There is also a big issue of gender equality in Japan, even though they are a leading economic power they are still rated very poorly when it comes to gender equality. Having just come back from another trip to Japan, a country I’ve spent a great deal of time in, I can tell you it’s a very different culture and only a very ignorant person would try and compare attitudes in Ireland to those in Japan. Why look so far a field when we can look at the likes of the Dutch or Sweden – countries with safe legal abortion but also fantastic reproductive health care education and access to contraceptions. Ireland is still far behind when it comes to sex education [there are only rough guidelines set down and schools can opt to ignore them and teach nothing about contraceptions, family planning and STI's or in some awful cases give out false or outdated information] and access to contraception, while slowly improving, is still miles behind most of Western Europe. It’s not as simple as just making safe legal abortion services more easily availably we need to have a massive overhaul of this countries entire attitude towards sex.

@bpdeasy has brought up abortion and Christianity. Shall we look to the bible for an example of God’s will?
Numbers 5.11- 22 (excerpts) 11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her… and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest…
16 “‘The priest shall bring her… and he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

So abortion is fine so long as you’re married and you’re husband SUSPECTS you may have had an affair.

Nick catholicism is the most common religion in the republic
maybe you should educate yourself on this country before you force your liberal americanism down our throat

As a man I agree. I can give my opinion, but I must support the outcome. It’s for woman to decide. The don’t need interfering.

No uterus,no opinion.@Luise well said.No male should have a say in this.

I’ve met with three separate TDs on this issue already. Still trying to get appointments with Michael Martin and Coveney on the issue. Both are dodging the bejaysus out of it.

Hypocrisy? Clearly you haven’t read the heartbreaking editorial on foster children unable to be adopted further up the page. Funny how groups like Youth Defence are so opposed to abortion, but actually actively oppose the Children’s Referendum and don’t concern themselves with children in care. Protected until birth, clearly.

It’s certainly an interesting discussion, because to be honest, most of the time when men get brought up, it’s by pro lifers who like to bleat about “men’s rights of their child!” The idea that some men might not want parental responsibilities or that some men might decide with their partners to end a pregnancy is the elephant in the room that gets ignored when discussing “father’s rights.”

So is this a discussion we should have in more detail about the role of men who wish to opt out (as in they made it clear before conception and during pregnancy, rather than just change their mind), absolutely. But the current law gives men no agency in this decision – their feelings aren’t taken account when abortion is illegal.

You should watch “It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia”. There’s a great episode about sitting on the fence on this issue.

It’s a good point, the equality and rights agenda doesn’t seem to stretch to men having an equal say. Gaping hole in the argument and a right can of worms I would have thought!

It would make an interesting discussion, and if abortion is ever legalised in Ireland it should be tackled. I do however think the priority should be with the interests of the woman. As a man, my wife or girlfriend going through a pregnancy is not going to endanger my life, just my lifestyle.

So I cannot think of any rational reason why someone would want to prevent someone else from taking control of their own life. This is why I can never see eye to eye with the anti-abortion groups. I had a discussion with someone of that kind of thinking…and its scary when you hear them say that abortion shouldn’t be allowed even in situations like ectopic pregnancy. Especially strange when it was a guy I was talking to about this…do they not think about the fact that in that situation their partner could die if she went through with it?

Not sure about that Olaf, when a man impregnates a woman, he is entrusting her with the safety of that child at least until it is born and he can support and look after it properly. To allow a woman willy nilly interfere with this age old process is tampering with the laws of nature and of the land.

So, G, since you support men having an equal say, you believe if a couple is in agreement, they should be able to have access to an abortion? If not, then you are frankly full of it, because you have no interest in men having a say.

And I agree with you, Olaf. My partner would be do anything to keep me safe and happy (because he loves me). I find it a bit scary when men seem to think their partner is acceptable collateral damage!

I’m somehow being strangely reminded of the Billy Goats Gruff at this point….

Indeed. Because babies are the property of men and women are only their caretaker/incubators. The Medieval Ages called, G, and they’d like you back.

Well nick to answer your question, if both parents are not in agreement then I think an abortion should be out of the question on the grounds of basic equality for both men and women.
If they are both in agreement that they want to have an abortion, then I think they are perfectly entitled to travel to the uk or anywhere else where abortion is legal and have one.

Ah. So you believe that men should have no say on having an abortion? If they can’t afford to travel, you would deny them any rights. That’s an interesting view of equality. You have no interest in supporting men’s right to choose, do you?

But if men don’t want a woman to have an abortion, you would deny her her constitutional right to travel? What about if she wants to drink or smoke (both perfectly legal?) Are you going to make that illegal? What if the man changes his mind three months in? Tough luck, she still has to have it.

But who cares about basic rights for women, a man has forced her to care for the safety of “his” child (because children apparently belong to people now?)

Nick, my points may be getting confused in the different posts, in summary I would say

Both parents should have to agree to an abortion for it to be allowed

If both want it, they should be free to travel and receive financial assistance if necessary

Smoking/Drinking – not sure how relevant it is, I guess somewhere down the line, probably in america, some man will bring charges against a woman for smoking or drinking during pregnancy and damaging his child. Would be an interesting case, not sure how it would go.

The x case was the golden ticket for the Pro abortion lobby, they were waiting years for this obscure set of circumstances to come along and jumped on it to try get abortion in through the back door. The legal issues relating to the constitution and this famous x case are still being reviewed as far as I know, far too long I accept but until their is a legal position taken, I’m not sure how it is best dealt with.

Ok, so you freely admit that you would deny pregnant women their constitutional right to travel? I’m sure you know that’s a fringe view and an incredibly sexist one.

You are clearly not that knowledgeable about the law. It’s clear that suicidal women have a constitutional right to access an abortion. What is in dispute is the best legal process to enforce that law.

And the X case is a “golden ticket” for the pro abortion lobby? I think you’re confusing the pro choice crowd with those who don’t care if women suffer. No 14 year old girl should have to go through a court case on top of everything else.

You obviously have a very negative view of women (they cry rape, they should be denied constitutional rights) and luckily, it’s not shared by the Irish people.

@G – I dunno about that. I don’t think either party should have that kind of legal power over the other. If you think about it rationally, lets say you get your wife or girlfriend pregnant…if she decides that she wants an abortion because its not the right time or whatever reason for her, then she should be allowed make her choice. You also have the option of walking away from her at the moment she makes the decision to abort. Then you can go and find a partner that shares your values.

I don’t think many couples or women taken the decision of an abortion lightly, and you can be definitely sure nobody wants to be in the situation where its a choice they have to make. That is why the majority of people use condoms and other forms of birth control but unfortunately none of these are 100% effective. So I don’t think it women are interfering willy nilly with nature….its a tough choice for the vast majority of them

I suppose I believe more in equality.
There is no question of a man being able to force a woman to have an abortion against her will, I would be totally against that but why then should the reverse be allowed?
You obviously feel that a mother has more ownership of a child than a father. This is a common enough view I guess but I don’t agree with it, I think a child is brought into the world by two parents who should have an equal say in it’s well being. That is true equality, I find it funny how pro abortionists can ride roughshod over equal rights when it suits their agenda.

NO ONE is saying a woman has more of a right to a child than a father. We’re saying a woman has a right to control who uses her blood, nutrients and womb. It’s not “equality” to claim that everyone but pregnant women should have a constitutional right to travel. It’s not “equality” to claim that everyone but pregnant women has a right to deny someone else use of their body and organs.

This has nothing to do with “ownership” of a child. This has to do with women being given equal rights. You seem to consider equality to be denying pregnant women the basic freedoms extended to everyone else.

What I am saying is that women and men should have equal freedom or lack of it in this instance.

A man is not free to have a child aborted without the woman’s consent.
A woman is not free to have a child aborted without the man’s consent.

I know it doesn’t suit your agenda, but that is equality in it’s purest form. It couldn’t be more simple.

That would be true, if the situations were otherwise totally equal.

You know what’s far more equal?
A woman is not free to force a man to risk his life by participating in childbirth or forcing him to support another human being in his body against his will.
A man is not free to force a woman to risk her life by participating in childbirth of forcing her to support another human being in her body against her will.

You speak of equality, but you have no answer for denying women constitutional rights, rights over their own body: not to mention your “women will cry rape” ridiculousness. You’re changing theories to fit your facts.

@ G – I don’t think in a perfect world either parent should have more “ownership” of a child than the other. Unfortunately in the world we live in, the baby is ultimately the responsibility of the mother until she gives birth to it.
You should know as a bloke, from an objective point of view, you are free to leave…hop on one of your ryanair flights and never come back. I’m not suggesting you would do this, I don’t know you, but not every man is honourable or has honourable intentions. So if a woman felt that the bloke who got her pregnant wasn’t ready for a child, and neither was she, then she should be able to take action in order to prevent her and potentially a child ending up in a terrible situation.

Ok, let’s review
A man is not free to have a child aborted without the woman’s consent.
A woman is not free to have a child aborted without the man’s consent.

The above is pure equality and hard to deny. On the other hand your point is:

A woman has to house the child so to speak and participate in childbirth, where a man doesn’t have that physical problem. This is difficult for the woman, but you are mixing up difficulty or inconvenience of nature with equality. The man doesn’t get the pleasure of nurturing and carrying a baby through pregnancy for example, this is not inequality, it is just nature.

By all means argue that women should have more rights than men when it comes to abortion, most people do and we can agree to disagree on it but don’t pretend you are for equal rights when you are not. You are in favour of all rights for women and no rights for men when deciding if a child should be aborted.

Surely G the flipside to that is if the man does not consent to abortion then he will be forcing the woman to carry a pregnancy to term, including all the changes and possible health risks involved?

@ G – I am in favour of equal rights for all. The abortion issue should not be about preventing, and more about enabling. There is no point legally forcing someone having a child that they do not want. It’s not good for them or the child. If someone is against abortion, then when they get pregnant unexpectedly they can deal with it their own way….if someone is pro-choice, they at least have the option to step back and think what the best option for them is. Not what someone else tells them.

What kind of pro-life person are you? If you were genuine, you would be concerned about the rights of an unborn child, not whether men get to decide or not. This isn’t a gender issue, it is a human rights one.

I am arguing for both to have equal rights over their own body. Please explain to me how both being able to deny offering their body to a foetus against their will is not equality?

Yes, a woman is the one whose refusal to offer her body will end a pregnancy. But as you would say, that’s just nature. You don’t support equality. You support giving a man rights over a woman’s body, rather than both having say over themselves.

Well I suppose it is a thin line but once a woman is pregnant, she has another life that is half created by someone else. The woman has rights over her body but not the right to tamper with another life she is minding. I would prefer if the child has a right to life on it’s own merit and personally would prefer no abortion. But as a minimal safeguard I would certainly expect the Father to have equal rights in the protection of the child.

On a human level, if the couple really cannot come to terms with having a child and decide they want to have an abortion, they have the option to travel to the uk for the procedure.

@G
Unless they can’t afford it.. But I suppose in that case a knitting needle and a bottle of gin eh?

Also, if we look to the UK, 90% of abortions happen before 13 weeks. At this stage of pregnancy there’s a 50/50 chance of miscarriage (medical term: spontaneous abortion), and as someone who has had a miscarriage at 10 weeks I can assure you, it’s not so much a child as a very heavy period.

The remaining 10% are most frequently in cases where the child was wanted, but was diagnosed with something that the parents felt too cruel to subject their baby to – anencephaly for example. These couples are denied the right to bury their babies at home as they cannot transport the body. Instead they are forced to send their babies for cremation an have the ashes sent to them in the mail. I think that’s especially cruel, how about some equality for them eh?

G, it’s quite simple.

Consent is required in order for anything to be done to a person’s body (except imprisonment when done by the state to a convicted criminal). The woman is the owner of the body in question, therefore it is her choice.

Ah, grand, so you only have sex for procreative purposes then? Otherwise you’re a bit of a hypocrite saying that people should only have sex when they want a child.

Also, interesting that you should “close your legs” rather than “keep it zipped.” Is it only women who should be punished for having sex, Guiseppe?

‘I’m not married which is none of you bee’s wax really’

Absaloutley. I fully agree. Your bodily integrity is none of my business. Whatever you and your girlfriend get up to on pre-marital basis doesn’t, and should never concern us.

So, why is it the other way around for you telling others what to do in private with their partners and their bodies?

OH and you bee’s wax doesn’t make sense.

Then use language which isn’t the same as language typically used to slut-shame women. In fact, maybe just actually be quite specific in saying what you mean? Just a thought. Because there’s a lot of backtracking when being called on what you say.

I’m pretty sure most “pro life people” would gladly consider themselves “anti-abortion.”

Why does the pro life brigade say the pro choice brigade is pro abortion then?

Personally i have no problem been called “anti abortion”. in situations like this “anti” is not a bad term. I’m anti abortion the other side pro abortion. Or pro life- pro choice. either works. Just my opinion

Hi Annie, My sister is pro-choice but not pro-abortion. From what I’ve read Conor Buggy is the same. Anti-abortion applies to all pro-lifers. Pro-life does not apply to all pro-lifers (many pro-lifers are even against it to save the life of the mother or where she is likely to attempt suicide).

“If people don’t want to have children keep there legs closed” Pretty clearly says that people should only have sex for procreative purposes (just in an incredibly sexist way). There is nothing wrong with having sex and that sentence would indicate you think children should be a punishment for having sex.

I think the answer to our economic woes is for people to just stop having sex. I’m sick of paying for pro-lifer’s children’s allowance.

Wow Tony, talk about discrimination from the left

Try hitting “reply” instead of just adding an entire new comment.

I’m from a “plant” where it helps if you coherently explain your viewpoint in a debate. Confusing punctuation and incorrect grammar optional.

Guiseppe, you are trying to backtrack on what you said. “If people don’t want to have children keep there legs closed” IS gender specific, and implies that you should be ready for children if you having sex at all. Just because you don’t like being called out on it, doesn’t give that sentence a different meaning.

Ha! Worst effort of being a Troll, come on G you can do better then that.

“all they have to do is pop on a Ryanair flight”.

SERIOUSLY? Really? That easy, eh? They also need to, ooh, find a clinic, pay for a clinic (because Irish women can’t access terminations free on the NHS even if they have access to free healthcare here), pay for a flight, take time off work, possibly arrange childcare for their other children (because surprisingly enough not everyone having an abortion is some young teenage flibbertigibbet, many of them are already mothers), possibly deal with travelling while very ill (because women have abortions for medical reasons), possibly deal with terminating a wanted pregnancy miles from home and family (medical reasons again). Oh, and not have any local aftercare when they come back. And possibly end up flying while still bleeding. And have to book everything while they’re still in the throes of making a very difficult decision. Over and over again I’ve read and heard about women saying that the having to travel and the associated costs added enormously to the stress of dealing with a crisis pregnancy.

But hey, making abortion as difficult to access and miserable as possible for those feckless women is GREAT! Because they only do it for stupid fluffy reasons like ski trips and they should be discouraged and stigmatised! And it’s just like going to a football match! FUN! *bangs head off desk*

Lisa you seem to be doing a lot of this head-banging off desks. I hope you have a ready supply of frozen peas handy :)

It’s a good thing her baby will heal her! (that totally not legitimate sounding fact courtesy of Youth Defence)

So people with money can have choice but poor people should be forced to live by your morality? Travel is no real option particularly in the context of the crisis.

As much as you are probably being a troll, I feel not only are you right, but the system would be VERY expensive in Ireland, and of course it would be abused.

Nobody wants to look past the first issue to the consequences of their choice….interesting

I suppose my point is, abortion is available to Irish people, they just need to get a boat or a flight across the water. You guys seem to want to make it easy for people to have an abortion but it is never going to be easy, if the only issue a person has about an abortion is that you have to go to Liverpool to get it, what sort of society are we living in.

Regardless of my views, the pro abortion people seem to ignore the simple fact, we have a constitution and if in a referendum abortion was legalised, then it would be easily and readily available. Nobody even asks for a referendum though as everyone knows it would never pass. So get over it and accept the rights of the majority to have their view enshrined in the constitution and the law of the land.

” if the only issue a person has about an abortion is that you have to go to Liverpool to get it, what sort of society are we living in.”

Annnnnd that high-pitched sound you hear is my point apparently whistling right over G’s head.

“we have a constitution and if in a referendum abortion was legalised, then it would be easily and readily available. Nobody even asks for a referendum though as everyone knows it would never pass.”

OUR CONSTITUTION SPECIFIES THAT ABORTION *SHOULD* BE AVAILABLE HERE UNDER LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES. At no point does it say “there’ll be no abortion here ever”, it says that abortion should be available if it’s needed to save the life of the mother, including if she is suicidal. This has been confirmed by multiple referenda. The problem that this expert group is supposed to address is that we don’t have clear legislation to match the constitution.

Also I have no idea why you think that even if we do have a referendum on making our abortion laws less restrictive, that a)it would instantly mean that abortion would be “easily and readily available” (most countries with legal abortion have some restrictions re availability) or b)it wouldn’t be passed.

Yes Lisa, I can see how being suicidal and having to endure Ryanair might tip you over the edge so that should probably be avoided. I’m not sure abortion should be used as a cure for suicide, how can you decide if someone is really suicidal or just saying that so they can have an abortion? also, the abortion could make them more suicidal when they go through the trauma of it.
Not sure we should be making laws to suit people who find getting pregnant a reason to commit suicide, where will it end. It all looks like a bit of a con to me, a way of getting abortion in through the back door by inventing hypothetical cases and latching onto obscure and tine minority issues.

If by hypothetical cases, you mean the actual case of raped 14 year old X, who had two psychologists testify in front of the High Court that if she wasn’t given an abortion, she would kill herself? Is that what you mean by hypothetical?

And unfortunately, we don’t decide constitutional rights by what you think. Two referenda have affirmed a woman’s right to an abortion when she is suicidal. You yourself don’t get to veto it because you don’t like it. Unless you’re fine with people deciding they don’t like the idea of freedom of speech or assembly?

Again Nick, the 14 year old is one of those minority cases. what percentage of the women having abortions in the uk do you think are 14, have been raped and are suicidal, probably about 0000.1 percent I’d say. Certainly not something we should be changing constitutions over.

I also find the rape thing strange. Until someone is convicted of a crime, then legally no rape took place so it would be hard to make that decision. By the time due process was carried out the child would be chomping on rusks.
Who decides if the girl was really raped or is just saying it so she can have an abortion? very dangerous road to go down.

Ummm, you are completely ignoring the fact that we’re not changing the Bunreacht na hEireann. It CURRENTLY grants the right to an abortion for suicidal women. That’s the will of the Irish people. Sorry you disagree, but that’s no excuse to ignore the constitution.

And that’s making a lot of assumptions that women are liars (less than 10% of rape accusation in Ireland are false and yet only 6% of rapes result in conviction – absolutely ridiculous to go by a court convinction). But going by your incredibly sexist comments so far, unsurprising.

There are logical fallacies all OVER your argument G and Michael.
I don’t even know WHERE to start!!

G, the girl is 14, she is a child. Her life was in danger. It’s not black and white, no middle ground.

Again, back to my original point, it is not that hard to travel, there are plenty of medical procedures which are not done in Ireland and patients have to travel far further a field than the uk for. I don’t have an issue with the girl being treated medically, overseas if necessary, this is a tiny minority case and can be handled as such.

Suicide is a very dodgy premise, what happens if the woman doesn’t want an abortion but the potential father says he will commit suicide if she has the baby, should we have a vote on that too?

Then bring a referendum. You’ve already lost on this one. You’re now arguing to deny women their constitutional rights. But, hey, you’re all about equality!

Er G, a man doesn’t need to threaten suicide – he can just walk away from an unwanted pregnancy.. A woman has to let it grow inside of her, perhaps you have missed this subtle difference in the situation..

In the same way a woman can walk away from an unwanted child by offering it up for adoption or giving it to the father to look after. A far less selfish option I would say.
I’m not advocating that men threatening suicide should be pandered too, I’m just saying women shouldn’t be either, equality, equality, equality!

I’m ready Gavin

Ah now G.. It’s not really *that* simple is it?
A woman’s body undergoes a lot of changes as a result of being pregnant. Her internal organs are squished to make room for the baby, and she grows much bigger, has an overload of oestrogen (which if you have an already existing health condition will often worsen it), the emotional problems associated with excess oestrogen, back pain and general uncomfortableness..
And that’s a *healthy* pregnancy. What if there’s complications? Gestational diabetes, gestational scoliosis (which is permanent), pre eclampsia, seizures..

There’s a whole 9 months between getting pregnant and handing the baby up for adoption – which if the woman doesn’t mind experiencing all or some of the above is fine, one you appear to have ignored. If a woman doesn’t want the baby she hands it up for adoption, if she doesn’t want to be *pregnant* she has an abortion.. See the difference?

G, a woman can walk away from an unwanted child but can’t walk away from an unwanted pregnancy. Suicide is not dodgy it’s REAL. Better to save 1 life then too lose 2. There’s a reason way we have experts in this field. We should look after are sick rather then export them.

FYI G, I’ve been asking for a referendum to legalise abortion (not to further limit it) for years. I’ve had appointments with TDs about it. I also had a letter in the Irish Times if you want to check.

I’m not a grown man.