Do Sinn Féin support the legalization of prostitution and cannabis then Cal?

http://news.change.org/stories/legal-prostitution-in-australia-a-failure

Huh a little research indicates that I am incorrect. Sinn Féin is the only political party in the state who has not signed up to the “Turn off the red light campaign” because some of it’s members argue for legalization.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/0621/ireland/ireland-could-be-safe-haven-for-traffickers-198199.html

No sign of a legalize soft drugs stance though http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/16496.

Guess they are only half living in the real world.

Leila:

In response to the link you published: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Australia

Brendan, i agree … They need to come on board. But they have not been in Government in the Dail, so you cannot hold them accountable for the actual actions of FFg/Labour/FF.
I am not a member of SF. If you read ALL my comments every week, i do hold them accountable where appropriate, but to be fair to them, they have a lot less deficiencies than FFg/Labour/FF. But, in all fairness, that is not hard. The 3 parties are a set of self-serving, money grabbing traitorous gits.

Why would one want to hold Sinn Féin accountable for the actions of FF/FG/Labour? That literally makes no sense.

Anyway, which actions in particular of FF/FG/Labour should we not be holding Sinn Féin accountable for?

By the way, bit of friendly advice. I wouldn’t use the phrase money grabbing. It invites ridicule.

Brendan, i just read the article on the link you sent…It reads very like the link Leila sent.
Yes, Ireland can live in the 18th century, no-one is Gay, no-one has sex until they get married, no one EVEr has a casual encounter, we all go to church on Sunday…..

Or…..
One day you wake up and realize that we live in the 21st century. Things happen. people make choices. It doesnt mean that someone like me is bad for ackowledging that things happen in this century that would have warranted the death sentence in the 18th century (or Saudi Arabia today).

You have two choices. Accept reality and deal with it in a manner that maximises protection to every person conecerned, while dealing with todays realities……
or sticking your head in the sand and pretending that no girl ON THE ISALND of Ireland has abortions each year, no guy ever uses the services of a prostitute… no prostitute exists, so you dont need to worry about sexual transmitted diseases…

The Pope and Chucr thinks the same as you…. Anyone who has sex outside wedlock is a sinner …
Using condoms is against Church thinking… etc etc…

Folks, live in your own century… i want to live in this one.

Where did you get the idea that I think having sex outside marriage is a sin Cal? Very strange accusation to make. Or is your rant about the 18th cenury not addressed to me?

Anyway about the link. This do you better? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6497799.stm

I notice btw that you have not identified what we should not be holding Sinn Féin accountable for.

Genuinely, the Thailand comment was not aimed at you…
The rest of it…. well, i leave it open for you to reflect and respond how you see fit in response to the examples of 18th century thinking i suggested exists in the Dail right now.

Any person who thinks they should go to an Asian country like Thailand, etc on holidays,while condemning the sex trade, really need to reflect on what they are advocating. They may think they are just going on a normal holiday, but a percentage of every penny they spend there is going to force under age boys and girls into the sex-trade and should be ashamed of themselves.

Go on holidays to Sweden if you feel so strongly about it, actually, go anywhere except Thailand.

Brendan, what is the subject matter we are dealing with here ?

I read the article heading to be

“Shatter publishes major document on whether Ireland’s prostitution laws should change”

What did you understand it to be?

I strongly and whole heartedly condemn the situation that you have described in Thailand.

“Or sticking your head in the sand and pretending that no girl ON THE ISALND of Ireland has abortions each year, no guy ever uses the services of a prostitute… no prostitute exists, so you dont need to worry about sexual transmitted diseases… The Pope and Chucr thinks the same as you…. Anyone who has sex outside wedlock is a sinner … Using condoms is against Church thinking… etc etc…”

I am going to stick my neck out here and say that no individual or party in either House of the Oireachtas (except maybe Rónán Mullen) display the above kind of thinking in the Dáil.

Maybe Michelle Mulhern, but she was arguing, on balance, in favour of legislating for abortion in limited circumstances so even she doesn’t really fit the bill.

I’m a bit baffled about where you are going with this to be honest.

I never mentioned SF once. I did not even know that SF refused to support the legislation you mentioned, until you mentioned it. I swear that to you. I am my own person. If you read my comments on the Murphy thread yesterday, i said that if his appeal fails, he must resign, yet you and many others on Joornal.ie seem to be under the impression that I am a blind follower of SF… A Shinner Bot.

Really,, like come on!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, i attack the Government when they screw up, which is an awful lot and really badly … really really badly…
but i also attack SF when they mess up …
i also support the Government on the few occasions that they do something right, but i also support SF when they say something that makes sense (which is a lot more of the time than the Govmnt).
Dont label me, or i will label you.

I think the subject matter is prostitution Cal. You seem to be talking about the 18th century for some reason.
(Which is a little ironic, prostitution was much more rampant in the 18th Century then it is today. Victorian times are responsible for a lot of the types of mindsets you are condemning.

I get your point, but if you say that FF/FG/Labour are not pragmatic then the implication is that the remaining parties are. The technical group do not have shared policies, so that leaves Sinn Féin. Do you see how I would reach this conclusion?

Oh and I’ve never accused you of being a Shinnerbot. Never. Not once.

Wow, we are having a serious discussion without the Politics, defensiveness, and genuine constructive feedback that is seriously lacking on this Island.

Do i agree with SFs view on everything…. No way.
I swear to you that up to even 3-4 years ago, i would not have given them a first vote on any electoral reform…. But here is what has happened since… but let me tell you my nervousemness about giving them 100% support right now…

I work for a multi-national in Ireland ( a large one). I know for a fact that if Ireland ever decided to raise it corporation tax rate, then the company i work for, would pull out… not immediately, but over the follwing 3-4 years (as that is the life-time of each investment they make).

I am seriously caught… SF say that they would maintain the corporation tax rate at its current rate, no argumnent in the short term, but that once Ireland gains its feet again, they would consider increasing it…
That is not good for my company over a 10-15 year period (i retire in 12 years).
I will get through the retirement barrier…. but- 3-5000 direct emplyees, along with 15-20 thousand indirect jobs would be lost
….

You can see my predicament…
Because,…..
FFg/Labour/FF would be willing to sell out our corporation tax rate in the short term for whats called Corporate Consolidated Tax Harmonization….
That would hasten my company leaving Ireland even quicker than if SF followed through on their 5-10 year plan….

I am screwed either way.. and trust me on this… if my company (i don’t mean that literally) leaves Ireland, the impact to GDP would be catastrophic.
So, while you may think i am an out and out leftie, i am actually a string believer in market economics.
I am very willing as an individual to pay a higher rate of PAYE etc… i can well affford it…
But i see that the more you punish the lower incomes for the crimes of the highest incomes, you will end up suffering as a result.

Sorry for th rant… watched the Greece/Germany game earlier, had my cans, and am still drinking.

Brendan, the red thumbs you have did not come from me… Just want to call that out … I gave ye Nothing :P

Ah righto. Good points and constructively made.

I think in the interest of future good debate I’ll leave you to enjoy your cans and get myself to my léaba. :)

Apologies for any confusion or any insult you felt I had implied toward you.

Hic…
Thank Brendan…
You really are a gent…

Oiche Mhaith …

Cal

I tend to ignore the thumbs anyway Cal, they’re a weakness in the Journal’s comment section in my opinion. They encourage cheap point scoring and they are pretty easy to manipulate by clearing the browser cache…

For the record I’ve worked for multinationals myself for the last three years so I can tell where you are coming from on the corporate tax issue, but I think corporate tax isn’t the be all and end all. There is also the fact that we are the only native English speaking eurozone country which apparently helps matters. Sure only time will tell.

Have a good one man, enjoy the few cans ;)

I live in Holland where it is legal,and it is not working. There is a massive problem with young women being exploited here. Add that to the fact that the Dutch are sick of all the undesireable tourists they are getting ( and no,they are not saying it’s worth it for the money the tourists bring), the sex industry is definitely not working here and they trying really hard to find ways to fix it.

Making it illegal doesn’t seem to work either. I think there are many different models out there, some better than others. I hear talk that the New Zealand model is the best so far. I’d be in favour of legalising it but it’d have to be done carefully to make sure it works as well as it can.

This says it all. Short video from YouTube showing how good legalisation is in Holland

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-a8dAHDQoo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Found others on trafficking in Holland too via search of YouTube.

Not JUST for tax reasons though!

Second oldest…

Does that mean you wouldnt mind your sister or daughter taking up this profession then? They are all someone’s daughters and sisters remember. Fair play to Alan Shatter for tackling this. nJust a word to Cal. It is so annoying that no matter what the subject under discussion is you ALWAYS have a rant at the Government. It weakens whatever sensible argument you may have.

Women should be allowed to do as they choose with their bodies without anybody moralising. I’d worry about people I know going into prostitution because of the risks involved, the prejudice they’d encounter, the legal issues, the way they’d automatically be treated like some sort of outcast, the risks of exploitation. But the actual selling of sex? No.

I hope Shatter does the right thing and gives everyone working in the sex industry all the rights and accesses to services they desperately need so that we can stop treating them like second class citizens, while at the same time working to make sex work as safe as possible.

That’s a point Cal…

I am not trying to sell a book…I was going to give one away for a while and I have been known to give one away before, but I can’t imagine why anyone would be interested in me, Me, ME in any kind of detail and the idea of trying to ram me up their noses is just embarrassing.

Sex work is like most other jobs, if the benefit exceeds the cost, whether because you need the money desperately, or because you are comfortable with sex work, or a little of both then sex work id the right choice, If the cost exceeds the benefit, then it is the wrong choice. How hard can that be to understand?

I would not have any problem at all with all the “Survivors of Prostitution” and those who wish to rescue then as long as they did not keep trying to impose their choices on other people.

You MUST not be able to make a living by selling sex because Stella Marr and Sarah Benson don’t like it?

I don’t think so!

We are adults, we must make our own choices, not have them made for us by ethically untidy fanatics with a totally different belief system and set of life experiences.

I hated sex work, but I THANK HEAVENS it was possible for me to make a living from it or there is no way I would have survived (of course I do realise that Sarah Benson, Stella Marr, et al cannot be expected to see my survival as a terribly persuasive argument for anything, but some other people might :o) ).

I just want to know that, now, and in the future, someone like me will STILL be able to avail of that last resort to survive…because, to date, there would still be no available alternative.

Even in more usual circumstances, anything Ruhama has to offer is likely to do more harm than good in the long run because of their predilection for imposing unsubstantiated propaganda and ideological extremism, while dismissing and invalidating any first hand experience that contradicts it…it’s similar, but even less healthy than crisis pregnancy counselling from fanatical pro-lifers!

Linda … Thailand maybe, how anyone could go there on holidays, makes me sick…. Amsterdamn, seriously.. Amsterdamn???

She is right Cal. Amsterdam is currently the number one destination for human trafficking according to the UN.

http://www.justmeans.com/Amsterdam-Travel-Sex-Tourism-Human-Trafficking/27438.html

Apparently the problem has grown in recent years with the Russian Mafia moving into the Red Light Districts and the massive increase in the number of illegal brothels.

Yes it’s true. http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/netherl.htm older statistics but still. I don’t understand why people are thumbing down your comment either.

I also used to believe that it would be best to legalise prostitution, I was so very wrong. To everyone spouting out about how legalising it will make it better for sex workers I urge you to look into it more. I used to say the same things, without thinking really. It sounds logical and fair, progressive even. Oh it’s only old, rigid and religious people who would be against legalising it. Well no, not at all.

Take a look at FreeIrishWoman’s blog http://theprostitutionexperience.com/ she will be releasing a book soon AND her identity. We need to listen to the women who have first hand experience of it and know about the reality of what legalising it really means.

I live in Holland and I can confirm that the vast majority of prostitutes are trafficked. It is an absolutely massive problem here. The fact that prostitution is legal has made it a prime target for traffickers.

Lies lies and more lies sex trafficking has not rocketed since legalising prostitution,
1 the Dutch changed trafficking legislation in 2005 to make the term very broad indeed.
2 legalising prostitution brings issues previously hidden into the open.
3 the number of people sex trafficked into holland has remained very stable the inclusion of other areas in trafficking has spiked the figures.

http://feministire.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/sex-trafficking-in-the-netherlands-should-we-believe-the-hype/

I suggest people read this then take with a pinch of salt when people start droning on about the Dutch model.

There is a hell of a lot of misinformation out there, it’s hard to sift through it all. Plenty of reason why lobby groups would want to twist the truth too, so always treat everything you hear and read with a pinch of salt.

Here’s a recent article on how banning the buying of sex harms prostitutes, I’d say it’s trustworthy enough. “Norway should rip up a law that criminalizes sex buyers, Oslo’s social affairs chief believes, as a new report shows a marked rise in violence against prostitutes working in the city ”

http://www.thelocal.no/page/view/rip-up-prostitution-law-says-top-oslo-politician

I must stress that FreeIrishWoman’s blog has never born the slightest resemblance to to my own experience, and that of others I know, of exactly the same place and time, not even in the physical background details. It was a very small world where everybody knew everybody else.

@mark dolt. Do you actually understand the services offered by Ruhama?

I do Adam, see above.

@Mark: Actually current laws are already pretty bad for Irish sex workers.

http://www.turnoffthebluelight.ie/information/brothel-keepers/

Delighted to see a sensible comment from a man, Adam. From what I can see, the majority of men seem to be against abortion, because they are not the ones getting caught out at a young age and having to deal with the repercussions for life, and the majority of men are in favour of prostitution in one form or another because they like to think that the women are doing it because they enjoy the sex! (Even my own husband is deluded enough to think that)

But who would want anyone to be destitute, hungry, or homeless instead?

…only a monster, IMHO…

Who would want their son or daughter to be a binman or a street sweeper? Who would want the height of their kid’s ambitions to be handing out metro-heralds or hauling heavy goods out of a lorry at 6:00am?

There’s plenty of jobs out there that are difficult, dangerous, unpleasant or poorly paid. This isn’t a good reason to enact legislation banning people from working them if they choose to do so.

@Michelle: You’re inventing motivations a little there. With regards to pro-life, it’s hardly a male only phenomenon and while I can’t speak for your husband I base my opinions on the experiences of actual sex workers, not religious right organisations who falsely claim to represent them.

Spear maker? The point is that prostitution is a service industry. You need to have people who can afford to buy sex before you can have others who will sell it.