Yes Stephan I agree with the middle men,

But what is fairly paid? If allowances and overtime rates are too high, and productivity to low, then it needs to be full objective review.

How would you do it? By international comparison it is very high, and most other metrics……
While it is easy to say nurses gardai etc are priceless…..by the same logic everyone else is too, without everyone the society ceases to function. Be them IT, professions, small business, farmers, entrepreneurs, bin men, bankers, minimum wage workers etc etc……but none can name their price or demand money when none exists, as if it grows on trees

He’s one of the highest paid school teachers in the world….

A few of my thoughts on Croke Park Agreement talks. “Extend the Croke Park Agreement…Should We? http://po.st/ffjJOH “

You can’t get one billion just by targeting the upper echelons.

You will if you tax the upper echelons of the public AND private sector. Or how about asking foreign companies to pay something remotely close to the 12.5% corporate tax rate like they’re supposed to?

David your party have ensured the majority of workers in this country will suffer for a considerable time to come.
Leo Varadkar summarised Fine Gael ‘s banking policy with the promise that ‘Not Another Red Cent’.
You can be pretty sure he got a substantial amount of votes on that slogan alone.

Enda Kenny” It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home”.

Your a rudderless, self serving, elitist organisation, the majority of your senior TD’s only open their mouth’s to change feet. They are so disconnected from the electorate it is beyond a joke. When the life span of this government ends (sooner rather than later i hope) they will head for the sunset on a massive pay off and pension that we the workers will have to foot. My child will pay for something that he knows nothing about for the simple reason Enda Kenny never even looked for reduction. I hope the Frontline Services are the rock you perish on. Take on the bondholders and leave the glue that keeps the country together alone.

It’s a shame that these idiots can not be done for breech of contract for pre-election promises. Then at least we would know that why we are voting these muppets in will actually happen. I suppose that would only happen in fairy tale land.

@David, but FG can get @300 billion by targeting the middle and lower echelons. Thank you for explaining FG’s policys.

*their

If we don’t find the €1bn through public sector wages/allowances/pensions the only other choice is to raise more taxes or to cut front line public services

@David Higgins, that’s not the only way.
How’s about giving nurses and doctors the supports we need? How’s about instead of having someone who has spent 4yrs minimum doing paperwork we hire someone who is on SW, can read and write and is pc literate to do this?
How’s about a coherent computerised structure across the board for the Gardai, HSE?
Or perhaps dedicated cannulation teams in every hospital as is industry standard in every other country, instead of having highly expensive, highly qualified personnel doing work that can be done with minimal training?
How’s about you ask those of us who work in the area instead of presuming that its our fault the payroll is so high?

David , spelling mistake acknowledged , teaching maybe for you , you never know, hang in there, when the ban if lifted come join us and see the fun were having

@David
Why don’t politicians include themselves in the public sector when it comes to cutting pensions and allowances??

Include an outright ban on un-contracted overtime, recruiting new entrants at a much lower cost to fill the void…

If you ban in contracted overtime your Health Service would collapse in a burning inferno that could make the London Fire look like a little blaze by comparison.
And we’re already hanging new recruits (rare as they are) out to dry.

Phase it in James. You get recruits, gov gets rate gain…

That’s a bit hypocritical, James. Do you feel threatened because some administrative grade staff have a college education? The likes of them aren’t good enough to be educated, are they? If you’re not a consultant in an ivory tower you have the perfect mentality to become one.

That would take far (far) too long (considering that those who work o/t are frontline, and those who are frontline are leaving by the plane load).
You can implement changes that would make a return on investment far quicker and would allow new recruits to see that things are changing and allow them to choose to stay here instead of making them leave.

Yeah that little creep Hayes is like a feckin robot ” lucky to have a job”. He is on 140k a yr. he is the worst kind of td a real weasel. He’ll be alright though. No worries there.

Muriel, it’s about taking the resources you have and making them work efficiently.
It costs the guts of 100K to train a nurse, it costs 200k to train a doctor to intern level, why on earth are we doing work that can be done by anybody? It’s not about being in an ivory tower, and forgive me, but my 5 postgrad qualifications and my basic nursing degree along with all the other certification and qualifications I’ve picked up over the years mean I should not be doing paperwork, I should be doing what I am trained to do – that is, nurse. Right now, I’m a very expensive secretary.

Muriel, the perception is that mgt think first of cutting services , rarely are the seen to stream line the service and make efficiencies in how They operate,
James makes a valid point,

James, it seems to me that you can’t take any more hours out. Cost per hour then is the problem. This is what needs to be tackled. Voluntary/Compulsory RD. Voluntary/ Compulsory pay cuts. New entrant grades, new efficiencies, detailed job descriptions and a credible performance appraisal system. All or some required…

So what you want to do is take the rate people earn, which is already making people leave, and make it worse? That sounds credible?
The frontline can’t take voluntary redundancies, thanks to previous redundancy schemes which were targeted at back office staff, but a lot of frontliners left instead.
Voluntary pay cuts – no, sorry, unless you’re making my job better I’m opposed to paycuts. I work very hard in a system that is broken. I didn’t break the system, I shouldn’t be punished for working in it.
Efficiencies, finally – something we can agree with. These as outlined above, making sure that I am doing what I’m trained to do instead of doing what a teenager could do with a bit of guidance.
Performance appraisal – I’m not sure what you’re getting at there but I think it’s the idea that if you work for the PS you automatically get promotion or salary scales? You don’t get promotion, and scales are designed to reward experience. Should they be performance related? Yes and I’m not sure. Yes, ideally, they should. You should always be assessed for currency.
I’m not sure that it wouldn’t cost too much? Would any saving be offset against the cost of having someone assess (bear in mind the numbers we are talking about here, and the specialist work involved!).

Perhaps I misunderstood. There are people with MBAs, legal and accountancy qualifications in hospital admin. They need those qualifications for their work. I agree that extra clerical staff in A&E would lighten the loads of nurses and doctors and give them time to treat patients. Unfortunately the public service is getting rid of staff at those grades right now in an attempt to cut costs. A hospital CEO or high grade public servant would easily earn 10 times what one of these people would cost.

Muriel, I appreciate that there are highly qualified staff in other areas of life, I’m aware of that.
What I’m referring to is training people at little cost in one particular area, like phlebotomy, or cannulation, or general admin, and taking those jobs off nurses and doctors. Those 3 jobs alone are the most frustrating jobs for us because in every other country those jobs fall to somebody else. There are specific teams whose only job is to take blood from patients 24/7/365, whose only job is to gain IV access 24/7/365, whose only job is to make sure patient notes are ordered, that requests for scans or consults or whatever are followed through, and that results of said intervention is filed appropriately. They are not nurse and doctor jobs. All you need is the ability to read, write, be PC literate and have colour vision. No degree required.
The idea that you have nurses doing jobs of HCA’s is lunacy in the extreme, as is the idea that you have doctors doing jobs that nurses should be doing, and yet we cannot get a doctor trained to a sufficient level so as to be able to do a call shift on their own by their 3rd year post graduation. It’s utter lunacy! Lunacy!!
There is a major staff shortage hurtling towards us in the frontline as workers realise that our front line services are not run properly, are not staffed properly, are not looked after properly, and the only thing we can do is cut more from it?!?!

Problem the the private sector seem to have james is not that they feel you dont do a hard job or a kob worth paying more for the problem is within your sector yous do not seem to stand up again the very waste that drags yous down … In my job if we were all told there is going to be cuts because were not running efficently well ya can be sure ill be the first person to point out the overpaid weak links and demand they go

Cut my take home pay anymore . That’s the 2.50 that a pay that breadman who calls ti the door every sat the 15€ for meat I pay the local butcher. The score I spend in the local each month the tenner a pay the barber all local job you choose which jobs should be put a risk when Multiple it my the other 100000 other low paid in the public sector how all facing another pay cut. How many jobs that going to cost in the retail and service sectors

Jay , the next time mgt ask the work force in the public service how to save money will be the first time ,
A friend who left frontline to work an office job was asked what colour he taught the office should be, he couldn’t believe his opinion was asked for,
Generally we put up with poor conditions of employment
My pet hate, some general hospitals have no showers available for their nursing staff, I kid you not, and that sums up their unions and the managers of our hospitals

I agree shay the whole system is a living discrace the public sector workers are more than happy to look after their own even if the people they are protecting dont deserve a job at all … Time to trim the fat simples

Thats right Jay, lump all public sector workers in together.
Try telling an A&E nurse who has been spat at and abused on Christmas morning, or a firefighter having stones thrown at him on halloween (before going home to a raft of bills they can’t afford to pay) that they don’t deserve a job.
Or maybe you’re one of those doing the spitting, abusing and stone throwing?
For the record, I work in the private sector but I’m sick of hearing people like you vilifying the honest hardworking frontline public sector worker.

What are u talkin about read my comments you idiot Where did i say anythin about the hard working public service workers

Try the bit where you said “public sector workers are more than happy to look after their own even if the people they are protecting dont deserve a job at all”…

Matt, read the comment from jay again

There was no necessity to cut supports to un-paid carers or disabled people. In fact there was no necessity to bail out our banks with public money. All of that has come and gone and when the time was right for the unions to say “stop” they abandoned the private sector and hitched their wagon to the Croke Park/ Bailout gravytrain . Now their FF/FG/Labour partners in crime are trying to throw them off the gravytrain.( who’d a thought!) and the Union leaders are in a panic cos the dopes that are Joe public arn’t racing to protect and support them now. The union are on their own now having chose the wrong allies and fought the wrong battles. Begg Ard schaca, will run away and live to spend his modest income another day.

Well said Henry, Go away David !

present facts and figures for your statement. dont be a sheep and try to be independent. short sighted.one sided. read more government spin for yourself

Please name all the other countries with a more efficient civil service than Ireland. Could you also explain in which ways they are more efficient. It might also be useful to include the ratios of numbers employed per head of population. I’m sure you have these statistics to hand in order to back up your claim.

Patrick , statistics are only one side of a picture , individuals with lived experience can give a qualitative view which is valid

I guess your of to read the sun for your information rod.making generalised statements without the ability to back them.silience is deafening

@Patrick

Compare across countries salaries of teachers, gardai etc, then compare the crazy allowances and perks (extra payment to teachers for holding the required qualification for the job !!!! WTF??), increments etc, early retirement, sick leave taken, hours worked by teachers, hours spent on patrol by Gardai, what countries use Gardai / police for passport duty etc.
Then compare percentages of dept budgets spend on pay and pensions vs capital costs, and complete your narrow view.
You might notice a pattern present in this country, indicative of the public sector mentality and sense of entitlement.

Then compare how much taxes are spent on public sector wages and pensions as a percentage of the total tax take.

The closest may very well be crazy Greece…..

Time for a reality check pal.

Hello, nurses get premium pay for nights/ weekend and public holidays , they work these shifts and I feel these shifts deserve premium rates , that’s it as regards allowances for me
Is the basic too high ? I know if it goes any lower foreign lands will get even more attractive,
There remains a scarcity of nurses in the developed world, until that changes reducing pay is counter productive

There are no extra payments to teachers for extra qualifications. Thats gone along with a 30% pay and pensions reduction and no jobs for newly qualified teachers.
They’re shooting themselves in the foot. An NQT has no jobs because the Unions agreed to permanent teachers working extra hours – so subbing is completely gone.
Getting up at 5 in the morning to drive two hours for six hours work once a week is the norm at the moment. This will soon be gone as the unions sold out the newly qualified to help their drinking buddies hold onto their wages. This is the only pay thats out there and all gone on petrol trying to find some experience.
The unions will have quite a shock in a few years but they don’t care. They have their 150000+ to fall back on.

@TheHeathen

I agree, it is correct the qualification allowances are not available to new entrants post 1st Feb 2012.

But they should be removed from current teachers, why get paid an extra allowance to hold the qualification required for the job, boggles the mind.

Also you are right about the unions, they are busy greedily protecting their pay at the expense of the profession, if their members had these crazy payments removed it could fund new teachers, also take reductions in other premium allowances like deputy principles and principles allowances which are huge.
There is a paradox of complaining that there isn’t funding to have new teachers when it is the collective greed holding onto too high pay that is preventing it. A reduction by all would allow more staff, but then the complain they are overworked because no new staff……..it hurts the brain, it is so self serving.

I wish you the best, and hope some reason comes to bear

@Shay

The premium pay would of course have to be looked at, but if it is simply reasonable overtime then there should be no problem, and it should not change.

I am talking about unreasonable and indefensible allowances and perks, and they do exist, and have been documented. I cannot accept your defence that just because you yourself do not get them that therefore no-one gets them, or they are ok, or should not be examined and reformed.

Nurses seem to be the fairest in terms of international comparison (in terms of basic pay), adding in shift allowances and overtime etc, I have not seen the figures. And yes there seems to be an international market for nurses. It may reach a stage that the amount we can afford to pay nurses will be less than abroad, then it is their decision to leave their country if money is their only motivator. Also there may very well be economic forces at work in other countries too, and wages may drop, and possibly insular policies to protect homegrown nursing staff in each country. It may seem attractive to emigrate, but there are dowsides too to consider.

Wrong !

‘Kicking the can down the road’ is one of the stock phrases used by those without an original thought in their tiny little minds.

Pardon me, but I got paid last week the princely sum of €1045.67 for two weeks work. For those two weeks I worked in excess of 160hours.
Tell me I’m overpaid.

James is there no overtime in your line of work? 160 hours of work in two weeks must work out at around 80 hours of OT.

O/t in my line of work is unnecessary, as deemed by my HR boss. I’m currently covering 3 positions that can’t be filled due to suitably qualified personnel.
I’m relying on these positions being filled and being able to take time in lieu.

@James

What is the cost of time in Lieu? Add that to your pay, and you have to correct total.

Im not saying you have not worked hard, and fair play to you, it is certainly a lot, i’m making a technical correction.

HelloGoogle, I am not counting it as I don’t know if I will get it. I’m relying on suitably qualified applicants to apply, and they are not applying (why would they, they can work anywhere else for less crap and the same money).