@jeff Kennedy et al… It was NOT a political or any other type of PROTEST. It was a celebratory parade as is thePatrick’s Day Parade. Remove your wavin-pipe goggles…. The kid you’re holding could turn out to be gay I wonder would that change your attitude?

Totally agree.

I think the Gardaí being banned from marching in uniform was a bad move. I’ve been to London Pride where police, fire brigade and armed forces are all officially represented.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeMVgMaIWlM.

Others above have said it was OK for them to march not in uniform, but the march is meant to be a symbol of an inclusive, equal society. We’re still a bit behind some (not all) other European countries on this one.

He has his boyfriend to warm him up.

I don’t agree with benny but mark what makes your opinion more valid . Mark is entitled to contribute just as you are . You should apologise for your childish dismissive comment !

LOL

Hi Niall calm down your not allways right.

Picture Number 1 could turn me.

*cough* because there is nothing bitchy about this post… *cough*

Not too sure how this is bitchy. I’m just expressing how the parades make me feel and the reason why I don’t frequent the Dublin gay scene. Take it whatever way you want graham.

That’s kind of a shame, Darren. My family was there yesterday (and also for the last few years) in support of our son. It was a great day. In all my years attending, I don’t think I have witness the bitchiness you mention. Certainly no more so than in the social circles my wife and I are part of in “straighty world.” I hope you’ll give it a whirl sometime. Personally, I found it very uplifting. Steer clear of the known bitches and march with your friends. No one person or shallow, bitchy clique defines an entire community.

Only half true, they were allowed to attend as long as they were not in uniform! Infact, one of the photos above happens to have a very well known gay member of the police force in it, albeit he’s in civilian clothing!!!!nnStill though it’s a bloody disgrace! The head of the guards should be sacked for this!

Why? They were not on duty so they have no right to wear their uniforms. I think you should be fired from your job Tony, assuming you have one.

It’s a political protest and garda are not allowed to wear there uniforms at any event, whether it’s gay pride or a Labour party meeting ,so stop inventing homophobia were there is non.

Jeff is correct. I wish people would actually research something before venting. There is nothing to be acheived by striking out at perceived discrimination where none exists. In fact you might win over a few of your detractors if you were seen to be fair and reasonable.

In what sense was it a political parade? There’s no party affiliation, no electioneering. It’s a celebration.

Are uniformed Gardai banned from taking part in Paddy’s day parades? If so, then fair enough. Otherwise it’s blatant prejudice.

This was my first time and it was uber amazeballs :D :D

Can I just ask what exactly in my comment are people red thumbing? The gay bit or the disabilities bit? Or the whole thing?

The red thumb brigade is ever secretive in their ways, Zoe, best to ignore them lest they actually bother to comment a reply to you and risk being replied to themselves ;)

My guess as to who the red thumbs are, to be honest, probably a combination of right wing conservatives, conservative Fine Gael supporters and hard-line Catholics. There is a special word I reserve for these people which I won’t use for fear of this comment not being publish, but it begins with the letter “C”.

Exactly. And I’d gladly bet that it boosted the local economy too.

How it a good idea for straight people? The parade is for the LGBT community. I’m straight I wouldnt go near it.

Would you be tempted Darren?

Look back at Patrick’s day parades. There are women dancing in bikinis or similar. Suspect that parade would also exhibit bodies if it were in the summertime.

Darren, you must be a little hunk are ya? The fear that all and sunder will abandon the parade and jump your bones. How do you leave the house in the morning? You must be fighting them off.

God

Oh Nokia, you are the living end!!

Another word, debauchery.

Yet another word: bigotry.

Easy there Nokia,you’re presuming that Paddy actually has a problem with debauchery.

Mick you are in denial

Down with this sort of thing (:-)nn

One simple quick question. Why were gay members of the Gardai banned from parading in uniform,while other members of the force,example the Garda Band, frequently feature in parades in full uniform? Who exactly issued the order for this prohibition, and what was the logic? And before I get all the homophobic red thumbs….I’m not gay, but I certainly feel that this is a clear breach of anti-discriminatory legislation.

Maybe given the fact that so many people were in fancy dress it may be somehow seen as denigrating and trivialising the uniform itself… n nThere are strict restrictions on where and when members of our uniformed services can wear those uniforms and it usually involved some official or ceremonial function which the gay pride match, as colourful as it is, is not.nnI don’t think it comes down to discrimination at all

March*nn(Although it would be a good match!)

You need to get out. Your comment is SAD.

dissaproving of what goes in the pubs (ie the lewd behaviour on the street) is what I meant to say.

My own thoughts exactly. It completely destroys the image of the gay community and reduces them to camp stereotypes.

Its called freedom of expression be grateful you do not live in Saudi Arabia

fetish elements? Are gay people the only ones into fetishes? Smells like an ill informed rant to me.

@ Mark

Here’s a college course you might enjoy

http://www.gender-studies.leeds.ac.uk/prospective-students/taught-postgraduates/ma-gender-sexuality-queer-theory/

@ Martin – of course gay people are not the only ones into fetishes and I’m not condemning anyone for having sexual preferences or desires – but that sort of thing isn’t widely palatable to everyone (especially, the sort whose homophobic attitudes, as I said, who would be confirmed by the appearance of a man in leather for example at two o’clock on a Saturday afternoon). I brought that up as an ‘ie’ off the top of my head, not as a planned, ill-informed rant. Sorry for offending your multi-sided sense of justice. And I think I would be very interested in a course on gender theory – it’s heartbreaking, for example to think of transgendered people who can’t fulfill the functions they want to, in the bodies their born into – and the legal constrains in this country that affect their lives and which I would be completely in favour of overhaul. I’m not at all homophobic – it’s just I disagree with the idea of a gay pride parade, not injustices that need to be righted.

Sorry, for adding an extra “who” in there and using “their” instead of “they’re”

@ old nokia charger, why would i need to do that course?

That comment was aimed (in jest) at the other Mark.

Mark, the event isn’t a protest march as such, but more a celebration- just as you can feel proud to be Irish on St Patrick’s Day, you can be proud to be gay today. If you attended the parade today, you’d notice that most marchers/ attendees weren’t scantily clad or wearing sexual costumes- they’re just normal people enjoying the day, but they don’t tend to be photographed for newspapers. As for the point of it all- try to imagine the impact a day like today has on a gay young person- after years of struggling with prejudice and complicated emotional turmoil, it is incredibly liberating and life affirming to see how many others are out there and how reassuring it is to feel that it is not a cause for shame, but for celebration. Hence the Pride; and as long as there’s a shred of intolerance in society, this event will continue to be necessary.

Yeah, because camp people who sometimes dress outrageously shouldn’t have equal rights. FFS! This tired old issue with clothes and make-up is a pile of tired old shite. The parade was brilliant today – uplifting, empowering and inclusive. My wife and I marched with our son and his husband and my daughter and her husband and their kids. A bit of tom-foolery with costume is no big deal. That these people are in danger the rest of the year for simply walking the streets hand-in-hand is what people really should be getting annoyed about.

Was just about to correct him too;)

Oh darn, forgive my accidently thumbs down!

People then have a problem with difference. Why are we so scared of ‘the other’. Embrace difference, life will be more exciting for everyone.

Who gets alienated by people in hot pants? Seriously like? I wouldn’t wear em but I just laugh and continue. Doesn’t haunt me for months like.

Do you know what alienated means Martin?

I do indeed. I was just using hyperbole to highlight how ridiculous the suggestion that a load of people just having the craic is going to create further friction between LGBT and straight people. Only people who are bigoted will be affected. And well, they’re bigots so no big deal.

Don’t knock it until you try it.

Parade isn’t to alienate anyone. It’s to show pride. It’s not all about being gay, it’s about the huge progress that irish nation made in terms of laws and mentality over such short period of time.

Yes, there is still a long way to go, but we should all be proud today of how the country have changed. And we should celebrate it.

And, well, it’s a great occasion to a celebration, so why not?! :)

yes I’m sure the scantily clad men at pride once a year are the root cause of all the scantily clad young ones in sexually suggestive poses in every town in Ireland every Saturday night. we should cancel pride to protect the children. get a grip.

I have to agree. I’ve nothing whatsoever against the parade, or the lgbt community in general but I was in the city this morning with my kids and I had to (try) explain why some men were dressed as women, and why others were barely dressed at all. If it has to be so sexually explicit then the parade should probably take place later in the day.

Stick to Kildare town so.

I suppose you find it easier to explain why men and women dressed as leprecauns are falling around the streets drunk at 1 in the afternoon on paddys day.

In my day we used to have priests and bishops parading down the streets dressed in women’s clothes and wearing party hats.

@sean Hamill nI’m going down to Rio for the carnival with my kids. How’ll I explain the scantily clad women to them. Lie actually. I’m going to Courtown beach… Etc., etc.,

@ Sean, it;s called parenting. You know, where you explain to your children that not all people are the same and that they should respect other people’s way of life. If you want to live in a place where these parades are not allowed due to concerns that it will corrupt children, may I suggest a short flight to Uganda. I think there’s even a political party that you could join. And while we’re on the subject, how dare these bastards take the rainbow colours as theirs ay? How on earth will you explain to your children that when they see a rainbow that it’s all ok! No gay people will jump out of the sky and force skimpy clothing on to them.

@ Orla

Hear hear.

Going by your camp picture, im sure you will be ok.

@ Cat

Why haven’t you organised it? Or do you want somebody else to do it for you?

How would a heterosexual parade be homophobic? Silly thing

Of course it wouldn’t be. I look forward to Kilkenny Cat organising it. I’m confident she isn’t like most people who ask that question and is prepared to put the hard work into organising this event.

If you want to get one organised go ahead Whoes stopping ya…nnUr comment has no place on this page.nn

Straight people are always being discriminated against. I’m straight and I can’t walk down the road without being called names. Poor old me, the straight, white, male person :(

There’s something for you to organise cat! Nobody is objecting to it, maybe that too would bring millions into the Irish economy for a week. And while you’re at it, organise a MOWO awards for music of white origin, unless you think that’s racist?

I am not gay…………..can you respect me? If not…… You are racist. I understand what respect means! Do you?

The standard of treating human beings decently, I hope.

People who express their opinion opposing black people are outcasts and black people are largely accepted.

And what are those standards Chris and who sets them?

Bob, one of the ‘standards’ at play is common sense. Basically society has realised that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, that being gay doesn’t have moral implications, neither have homosexual acts, and a lot of good can be achieved for gay people if society accepts and supports their relationships. Those who disagree with this consensus fail to offer any tangible evidence, and so a new status quo is reached.

You set those standards Bob..

Society at large sets those standards, Bob. I hope I’m misreading your question because, on the surface (and I accept I could be 100% wrong), it kinda sorts *seems* like you want to lodge a complaint with those standards-makers because they have made your “disapproval” of gay people seem anachronistic. Like I say, I could be wrong: you could be 100% behind respect and equality for LGBT people (in which case I applaud you) and merely asking an philosophical question. Care to sate my curiosity and clarify?

@Stephen: And what tangible evidence do you propose to support your claim that common sense supports that homosexuality isn’t “wrong” (as you put it) – again, what is the standard that you have applied?

Bob the standard I apply is the principle that if an act/ behaviour/ sexual preference etc doesn’t harm anybody, then there are no grounds to oppose it. Since there is a complete absence of negative consequences of homosexuality, I see no reason why society or individuals should oppose it. Opponents of it have failed to convince me, as they have no argument- at best arbitrary tenets of various religions. Common sense allows everybody to see gay people lead happy, fulfilling lives with the support of their friends and families (for the first time in modern history), and allows us to see this as a positive thing.

Thanks Chris, I certainly don’t oppose gays or lesbians, I love and tremendously respect both. I acknowledge everyone’s positive input to society.  I’m talking about standards for right and wrong here :-)

@Stephen – this is by no means a consistent standard by which we could measure right from wrong.  It also begs the question being asked, that is to say, by what standard do you measure harm? You have no idea if homosexuality or any other position for that matter harms absolutely no one.  In fact all relationships can be harmful to others at different times.  There certainly are grounds to oppose your position or standards, you’ve simply ignored them. I certainly don’t wish unhappiness upon homosexuals or upon any one else for that matter; but the reason for this is because I have an absolute standard which encourages me to do so. Which brings me back to the point; I apply God’s standards of love, truth and mercy, which are absolute and unchanging. Your position is inconsistent and therefore not able to uphold truth or logic.

Bob you invoke truth and logic, while pinning your objections on “God’s standards of love, truth and mercy”. Where to start? Firstly, this is a secular democratic republic, and its laws are based on reason, not on religious dogma (at least this is how it works in theory, and increasingly in practice). I was making the point that arbitrary religious rules are the only reason people have for opposing homosexuality. The religious rule for one person is completely irrelevant to someone who doesn’t adhere to that religion- do you expect us to live in a theocracy? Objectively, homosexual relationships cause no more or less harm than heterosexual ones. In answer to your original post, society has replaced selectively quoted ‘religious’ standards with objective, rational assessment, and found homosexuality to be completely acceptable. You’ll find a rejection of medieval religious dogma actually opens the door to truth and logic.

Stephen if you want to invoke logic you’re going to have to have an appropriate worldview to support such a position. You sound like your an atheist, if so, can I ask, how is it that you propose to agree with or support unseen, unchanging, immaterial entities such as the laws of logic if materialistic atheism is true?

Apologies Chris – I’m only seeing your post now. This isn’t a matter of respecting others’ point of view – as a Christian that should go without saying. What I’m talking about here is morals, the standards which one applies when “deciding” whether a matter is right or wrong. I apply the Biblical standard when deciding right from wrong because it is equal, consistent, rational, and comes directly from the Creator of the world. What is your standard and why should I accept it?

Bob since we discussed this I’ve been thinking about your points and mine, and would perhaps summarise my common sense argument as this: ask yourself what happens when homosexuality is condemned and marginalised? People commit suicide in despair- as is happening even today. What happens when homosexuality is embraced and supported? People lead happy, fulfilling lives. This is why I suggest society has changed its view- the evidence for the positive effects of treating gays equally is all around us. nIn terms of your stance: if biblical standards are so reliable, why is it we don’t put people to death who work on the sabbath, as clearly called for by the old testament? Can you explain why biblical standards are so arbitrarily adhered to?

Thanks for the comment Stephen, I’m glad to see that you’ve been giving our discussion some thought, so too have I, that’s one of the main purpose for debate.

I think I touched on this a little before, but just to mention it again – a Bible believing Christian loves and offers their support to homosexual people. Jesus taught that the 2nd greatest command is to love others (regardless of their beliefs). This “condemnation and marginalization” is not a position that we take.

“People lead happy, fulfilling lives. This is why I suggest society has changed its view”
Are you saying that truth is decided by what makes people happy? This of course does not make sense in the real world. It made Hitler happy to murder 12 million people (mostly Jews). Mao Zedong was happy to murder 40-70 million Chinese people (the list could go on and on). Should we accept what they did as right because it made them happy?

Standards, just like the laws of logic, are invariant; that is they don’t change, they are universal; that is they apply everywhere, they are abstract; that is they are immaterial or non-physical in nature. This is why in my original comment I posed the question – what standard is society using to approve or disapprove homosexuality?

“if biblical standards are so reliable, why is it we don’t put people to death who work on the Sabbath, as clearly called for by the old testament?”
You’ve raised a very worthy topic with regards the “death” penalty in Biblical times. Obviously I can’t cover every law in this discussion, but let me explain being as brief as I can the apparent difference between Old Testament law and New Testament grace.

Firstly just to mention, society today is not consistent with the Biblical standards – this has nothing to do with the reliability of these standards, people today just choose not to follow them.
I’m hopeful that you’ve read the Bible for the most part and that I can assume that you understand that it contains 2 testaments or covenants. These covenants are completely consistent when viewed together as part of the Biblical worldview. Of course one could pick at the Bible when they apply their own perspective/worldview (like you have done perhaps without even realizing it). In order for you to critique the Bible, you must take into account the whole picture from Genesis to Revelation. The Old Testament tells us that God created 2 people, first Adam, then Eve, and He did so to enjoy their fellowship(I understand your view of the beginning possibly differs from the Bible’s, however this is what I mean when I say you must take the Biblical view on its own, for arguments sake, and see if it is internally consistent). When man sinned this brought a curse upon the world (as God warned it would if they disobeyed) this of course had many implications one of which was a separation from God. God promised a savior in Genesis to redeem man from his sinful state and bring him back into a relationship with Himself. However, things were getting worse by the minute and people were doing whatever pleased them; there was no standard for right and wrong (just like today). God laid down the law (mainly the 10 commandments in the book of Exodus) to show people their sinful state and their need for His mercy. When God gave the commandments the first man to break it did so in direct defiance against the creator of the universe; God made an example of him (one that we remember to this day) to show us His hatred for sin and not for man. Cutting this short for time, Jesus came and lived a perfect life as a man (as recorded in the Bible and verified by many external sources). He offered his life for us as payment for our sins. He literally satisfied the righteous requirements of God’s law by not breaking it, and then died in our place. In modern terms, He paid our ransom and set us free from having to keep a set of rules to be right with God.

There is no change in standards at all, in fact God’s law still exists today and it remains the standard for right and wrong. However God has imposed all penalties for breaking that law (including the death penalty) upon His son and offers this gift of salvation free of charge to anyone who will believe in His Son.

Hope this makes sense.
Bob

Hi Bob, thanks for taking the time to explain that, although I think we’re reaching the point where we’ll have to agree to disagree! Basically, you see homosexual acts as sins, and that his why you very tastelessly compare them to the sociopathic actions of Hitler and Stalin when considering if making someone happy is reason enough to accept a type of behaviour. However as a non religious, non-Christian person, I think a perfectly acceptable way of deciding right and wrong is to judge how much harm an action inflicts. My personal experience and I believe the experience of society at large is that allowing homosexual people full equality brings about a large amount of joy where previously there would have been pain. I repeat my assertion that apart from religious objections there are no reasons not to pursue the path socirty is pursuing, full equality for gays so that young people no longer need to feel ashamed and terrified of their sexuality, and can look forward to a joyful life like everyone else.

Test post

Sorry Stephen there was a problem with posting on this site until now.

“Hi Bob, thanks for taking the time to explain that, although I think we’re reaching the point where we’ll have to agree to disagree!”

My pleasure, it’s a worthy subject :-)
Thanks for your comments!

“Basically, you see homosexual acts as sins, and that his why you very tastelessly compare them to the sociopathic actions of Hitler and Stalin 

Sin only makes sense when there is an absolute standard for right and wrong.  Without the Bible, there is no standard which we can rely upon when making moral judgements.  I never mentioned anything about Stalin, however you might be interested to note that I did have a paragraph in my original reply dealing with the fact that I wasn’t comparing homosexuals with mass murderers, like Hitler. I deleted it as it seemed to be out of place and I trusted that you would clearly see, by the context of my sentence, that I was dealing with the grounds upon which we determine whether something is right or wrong; happiness is not a solid ground for making this decision. 
 
“when considering if making someone happy is reason enough to accept a type of behaviour.”

If you can provide a logical reason as to how happiness provides a standard for right and wrong id really love to hear it!

“However as a non religious, non-Christian person, I think a perfectly acceptable way of deciding right and wrong is to judge how much harm an action inflicts.” 

This is circular reasoning.  You’re being asked to provide a solid ground by which we can determine right from wrong. By what standard do you judge whether or not someone is “harming” another?

“My personal experience and I believe the experience of society at large is that allowing homosexual people full equality brings about a large amount of joy where previously there would have been pain.”

I believe in equality for all people. This in fact is at that centre of one of the great commandments – love your neighbour as yourself :-)  God has created man & woman in his image and likeness and expects us to fully respect the rights that he has laid down for each.  Caring for others in a world without God certainly doesn’t fit with the notion of “the survival of the fittest”.

“repeat my assertion that apart from religious objections there are no reasons not to pursue the path socirty is pursuing, full equality for gays so that young people no longer need to feel ashamed and terrified of their sexuality, and can look forward to a joyful life like everyone else.”

Perhaps in your estimation so-called ‘religious objections’ are futile, but I am making the point that without a Biblical foundation you can’t account for standards and therefore reason itself is not possible. That’s a very strong argument to accept or at least give serious thought to.

Really nice talking to you.
Bob :-)

nice profile pic

What are you getting at exactly ? Look it up on the web yourself.

There’s a good explanation of the history behind the parade in this piece from earlier today:

http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-pride-parade-merrion-square-lgbtq-504347-Jun2012/

Ask Leo Varadkar.

Creates visibility for members of the LGBT community in public space in an inclusive environment!!

Why the need for visibility?

Hello, I’m a white, straight, middle class man and have never faced any discrimination in my live ever, at all, at any stage. Why are all these people who are not like me shouting and stuff?

Why do you think Simon and why have you got an objection to it? Do you hate colour, freedom and on the streets of Dublin?

Why do you think Simon and why have you got an objection to it? Do you hate colour, freedom, diversity and fabolousness on the streets of Dublin?

Colin hope your enjoying yourself today

@ Jonathan Masterson,

To me the parade showed that there are 1,000′s of human beings, Irish, new Irish, visitors that are gay. They are alive, they are human, they are intelligent, a part of society …. that happen to be gay. This is how they are, just living, learning loving just like me, you and every other human being that has a right to live in peace.

Exactly. They should get over their enormous chip on their shoulders.

The chip on their shoulders? What a ridiculous comment. Members of the LGBT community had centuries of abuse, degradation, and marginalization due to their sexuality. It’s disingenuous to trivialise this with a phrase such as a ‘chip on their shoulders’. It’s taken an awfully long time for this country to get to the stage where a march like this can happen openly. For far too long, and still in some cases, Irish gay people have had to hide their sexuality for fear of society’s response and even losing their jobs. Pride is a symbol of progress.

Is was a joke! Some people!

Does straight police only deal with straight people??

Don’t care if the local copper is gay as long as he’s not bent :)

Liam please read my post above about the impact of this event on young gay people.

Trust me stephen, I want all gay people to feel comfortable and that they belong in society (and they do). I just don’t know if the parade is helping or harming the cause.

What you think does not matter benny

Simple solution to that, Ben. Don’t go to it.

Do you think it should be banned though?

Cat got your tongue, Ben?

He’s entitled to disapprove ,or do you only agree with free speech if you write the script ?

Yes I acknowledged that, and advised him not to attend if he disapproves. I also asked him if he wanted to prevent others organising/attending Pride.

I had a feeling he wouldn’t answer.

Ben Dug in then? Get a life…

and your point is?

Actually it’s Adam and Zebedee – learn your f*@king alphabet.

That’s completely arbitrary…what do we do with opposing views then? how do we tell who’s right and who’s wrong? (what logic or standard do we apply?)

Good question, Bob. What do we do with the views of those who, for instance, oppose interracial marriage or premarital sex or divorce or equal pay for women or those who have no truck with the notion of Creationism? That kind of list would be endless. Personally, I like these kinds of questions: why not treat these people as your equals; why not show full respect; why not appreciate their valuable contributions to life, society, industry, the arts, education, sports, healthcare and law-making?

Dammit. I wasn’t very articulate there: it looks as though I’m siding with people who oppose equal rights. DEFINITELY not so. Damn this lack of an ‘edit your post’ button on thejournal.ie

Certainly the bible Bob. And while you’re here, I’ll have a P please Bob

What if there is any God at all?

He might have a few pertinent questions to answer regarding some of his work.

The brilliant Butters from Southpark says it best in this fantastic clip: http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155516/butters-speech