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Dublin: 10 °C Wednesday 19 June, 2013

Brussels made 17 errors translating the ESM Treaty into Irish

Dáil approval was needed this week to correct 17 grammatical mistakes, and typos, in the Irish version of the Treaty.

Michael Noonan required Dáil approval to make 17 changes to the ESM treaty, correcting mistakes made in the European translation.
Michael Noonan required Dáil approval to make 17 changes to the ESM treaty, correcting mistakes made in the European translation.

DÁIL APPROVAL was needed this week to give the Irish language version of the Treaty establishing the Eurozone’s new permanent bailout fund the once-over – after the official translation was found to contain 17 grammatical errors.

Michael Noonan was forced to seek Dáil approval to make 17 small amendments to the European Stability Mechanism Treaty Bill 2012 after a thorough examination of the original Irish text provided by the European Council was found to carry several errors.

Irish laws which allow the country to ratify international treaties include the full text of that treaty as a ‘schedule’, or attachment, to those laws – meaning the full text of the ESM Treaty, in English and Irish, is included in the Bills which are put through the Oireachtas.

This is to ensure that any later amendments to those treaties cannot have legal effect in Ireland without a similar amendment being approved by the Oireachtas.

“In the course of preparing the European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012 it emerged that some corrections were required to the Irish language version of the treaty, as held by the European Commission,” Noonan told the Dáil.

“Before correcting the Irish version of the European Stability Mechanism treaty attached to the Bill, the Irish version of the treaty held by the European Commission had to be amended.”

‘Procès-verbal’

In order to ease the process of amending any incorrect translations, European law provides for an informal arrangement, called the ‘procès-verbal‘, which allows minor grammatical and typographical adjustments to treaties as long as they are agreed by each of the participating countries.

Noonan said each of the other 16 countries which originally agreed the ESM had stated in writing that they had no objection to the amendments, meaning the version housed in Brussels had been corrected.

The Dáil’s approval was needed, however, to ensure that the version included in the legislation – copied from the original translation undertaken by the European Council – was amended to reflect the changes made to the original.

A number of the changes were needed to reflect the incorrect gender of Irish nouns, though the changes also included replacing the translation of ‘budgetary’ for ‘fiscal’, ‘conditional’ for ‘contingent’ (which also means ‘accidental’ in Irish) and ‘identical’ for ‘equivalent’.

Other errors included the English-language initials ESM instead of the translation SCE, the omission of the word ‘ansin’ (meaning ‘then’), and the use of the wrong plural for the word ‘subscriptions’.

Some fadas were also left off some words, and séimhiú characters left out of some phrases.

The changes were approved without opposition, before the Dáil formally approved the amended version by 114 votes to 22.

The European Union spends an estimated €300 million a year translating documents into each of the union’s 23 languages, which since 2007 has included Irish as a ‘working language’, though treaties have been translated into Irish since Ireland joined the union in 1973.

Read: Dáil approves Ireland’s ratification of new Eurozone bailout fund

More: Noonan to continue promissory note campaign at Eurozone ministers’ meeting

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Comments (70 Comments)

  • The standard of Irish teaching in Belgium is appalling.

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  • Meh.

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  • Cad é an sceal?

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  • Reg 22/06/12 #

    And 22 fools voted agains the corrections. I suppose we can guess who they were!

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  • Waste of Dail time

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  • Sounds like they they don’t give a focal.

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  • Avatar 22/06/12 #

    What a waste of money. Are there any Irish speakers who don’t understand English?

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  • Is it just coincidence that there was a grammar error when explaining about fixing the grammar error in this story?? 5th line in paragraph starting with Proces-Verbal!!!!!

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  • An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí and leithreas

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  • Fairly desperate attempt to get the resident anti-everything rabble rousers wound up there, Gavan.

    The journalism standards here are hilarious.

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    • Reg 22/06/12 #

      The Journal revels in getting the “Great Outraged” really wound up!

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    • Jawohl herr weisen.

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    • Wolfgang – With respect, that wasn’t the intention: the piece is just a bit of colour, that’s all.

      The reason it might seem like a “fairly desperate” attempt at rabble-rousing is because it’s not supposed to be rabble-rousing at all.

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    • If that is your opinion Wolfy then dont read The Journal and betters still dont comment!

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    • Ah yeah Gavan but sure you know yourself, the people around here get the pitchforks out over anything these days. If you were to publish an article with Angela Merkel enjoying a 99 and a stroll in the park you’d have the usual crowd up in arms over the austerity they’re supposedly endearing and how he shouldn’t be rubbing her wealth and freedom onthe nose of the oppressed Irish who are apparently too poor to afford a 99.

      Same goes for the Brits, politicians here, etc etc. Their hands and attention are very easily played into basically which is why I was accusing you of it, and given that this is a business, I woul certainly understand if that were the case too.

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    • @Wolfgang – I see exactly what you mean, and we’re often suspected of deliberately trying to be inflammatory. It’s almost never the case, though – quite simply because an inflammatory piece presents management difficulties for us, given the comments they generate: moderating the comments becomes a far greater task, requiring time, nuance, and occasionally legal advice, and all of the above stops us from doing our jobs: to write more news.

      In my experience, one doesn’t necessarily have to go looking for a reaction from a reader: for every topic we might choose to cover, there will be at least SOME readers (however small the minority) who will be frustrated by some of its points. One cannot be everything to all men!

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    • It’s a Car Crash Commentator Community Ann, I just can’t help myself but look!

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    • Fair enough Gavan, cheers for the reply

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    • Gagsy 99 22/06/12 #

      Hey Wolfgang, less of the scurrilous allegations about Angela enjoying a 99 – I’ve never even met the woman.
      If I did, then who knows what might happen, but until then…..

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    • @Wolfgang why do you insist or reading and commenting on the articles if they are not to your standard of journalism? surely you would be happier on the Irish times, Irish independent or one of the many other newspapers available online or to download as apps?

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  • It should be stressed that of the €300m spent on translating documents a tiny percentage is spent on translating to Irish with very few documents or translators. The cost is minimal as can be seen here. pic.twitter.com/xKpbHPpI

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  • Can’t the people in the Gaeltacht get it translated if they need to? The money wasted in this country is incredible. nnAnd just because I haven’t translated my name into Irish doesn’t mean I’m less of an Irishman

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  • Of a matter of interest, can some of the pro folks here just give me a logical/practical reason why the EU needs to provide Irish translation services? Where’s the benefit?

    I know I’m probably a bit TOO anti Irish language, and I don’t mean to offend anyone but surely we HAVE to be practical when it comes to the bureaucratic management of Europe. Isn’t all we’re doing here creating unnecessary red tape and further complicating the process AS well as spending cash that, well, could be spent a lot better elsewhere?

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    • By not giving somebody the most basic services/ acts and laws in a language you are telling them the language they speak isn’t adequate. You are forcing them to speak a language which is not their own.

      Irish is one of Europe’s oldest languages (far older than English) and one of 6,700 languages left in the world. It has been the majority language of this country for over 90% of our history- It’s the only one out of 6,700 we can infact call our own . As our first official language it’s important we protect the language rights of those who can speak it (1.77m) and those who do speak it daily (77k). Both those figures are growing and if we want to continue the growth and interest in the language basic services/ laws and acts have to be available for those who want to use it so they are not forced to use English- a foreign language to them

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    • Thanks for the reply Aodhán.

      I appreciate your obvious love for the language and the culture, but I’m not really convinced still of the practical value of this exercise.

      Everyone on this island speaks English fluently. I really don’t believe for one second that anyone REALLY speaks Irish as their no.1 language. I was over in one of the Gaeltachts out West last week, and yes people were speaking Irish, but only purely to maintain the function of the Gaeltacht itself. In that region it had practical value as it had definite educational and tourist benefits. However, even there, I’d adamantly argue that the populations core language is still English. English is still everywhere down there, in the shops, banks, etc.

      I still cant see any practical reason why we should enforce the use of Irish at this bureaucratic level in Europe, (or even Ireland although, fine, there is some level of culutural acknowledgement but even still it’s minor and doesn’t justify the expense). None of this makes any sense to me.

      Lets just be honest with ourselves, surely we have to admit, Irish really isn’t useful anymore as a language. It serves no practical linguistic purpose. It’s fine to acknowledge it culturally, and I’m fine with it being a subject in school (BUT definitely not compulsory), and it’s fine having Gaeltacht regions that celebrate our culture. But trying to bring it into a practical sphere, such as our government bureaucratic systems is a useless and costly exercise and just makes no sense. Unless of course the Irish Language movement (for want of a better phrase) wants to try and get us all speaking Irish as our primary language again, but lets face it, that’s total nonsense and will never happen.

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    • You are simply wrong about people not speaking it as their first language. You may have been to a “Gaeltacht” where your heard english – This can unfortunately be a common occurance depending where you were but try going to more rural areas like Ros Muc in Galway, Gort a Choirce in Donegal or Baile an Fheirtearaigh in Kerry where it would be strange to here English.

      There is no point really arguing this with you as you seem to measure culture in monetary terms- I’ll give you one example of why I don’t think it can be measured that way if you allow me break it down in a different approach- Our language is a huge part of our culture, which makes us different, unique and Irish. This culture and identity in turn brings in millions in tourism every year. The more we cut our language, our arts, our heritage the less unique we become, the less we attract tourism.

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    • So Aodhán, those of us who speak English, practically everybody, are not Irish?

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    • Oh that’s just wrong. The Irish language is not responsible for millions in tourism every year. Where did you get that from? I don’t think the majority of tourists care about the Irish language at all and if we were a native Irish speaking country I think it would put a lot of tourists off coming here. Also think of all the foreign investment we’d loose out on from companies currently utilising our native English speaking work force. nnAnyway I still don’t see how Irish translation of government documentation enhances our culture in any way. Irish in the gaeltachts enhances our culture. Irish as an optional subject in school enhances our culture, but Irish versions of government documentation? It’s a foolish waste of money and time and does nothing but add unnecessary complexity to these systems.

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    • I’m all for keeping the translation as i outlined further down. And to argue on a purely financial basis is ridiculous – similar arguments used to be made as regards spending on budgets for the the deaf and blind community, travellers – i.e. “there’s not that many of them and they’re costing the state a fortune! Why can’t they pay if they want the information or services especially prepared for them?”
      If you go purely down the road of analysing services of this kind on a purely financial basis reason and civic duty go out the window…

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    • McEnnalys, catering for the disabled community is perfectly valid as they’ve got REAL disabilities that require a practical response. Converting Irish government documentation does not serve such a cause. I don’t believe there are people out there who struggle understanding English and NEED to use Irish instead. I responded to your later argument on this.

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    • Brendan,
      Luckily people like yourself dont get to chose which money is spent. The Irish language and speakers of it are protected under the constitution so relax – that isnt changing anytime soon so getting wound up will help no one.

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  • Just unbelievable more wasted money.

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    • Where has the money been wasted Mike?

      The EU took in €126 727 133 762 in 2012.

      http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2012:056:0001:0556:EN:PDF

      The cost of paying a translator for a year between €40,000 to €70,000.
      The translator was very likely an Irish person.

      It’s not exactly a massive expense to respect our heritage and give one of our own a job really is it?

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    • It is most certainly a waste of money between 40K and 70K for a translator job. A translators job should be to translate from one language to another to provide essential help in the communication process because one party doesn’t understand another party. I think we can safely assume that the EU Irish translator is probably never ever ever listened to in reality. It’s a useless waste of space, time and money and is just a typical silly stunt from some of our more useless politicians. Same goes for the stupid necessity to have all our government documentation done in both Irish and English. How much cash is wasted there? Irish is no one’s primary language anymore. All this stupid red tape is pure bullsh*t. I’m sure the elite Gael Scoil brigade will let loose their flying monkeys on this one but there you go.

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  • Should be re- running that traitorous treaty. It was brought in under falsified text. To which they are altering to suit their needs.!!!

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  • my contribution on the stae poilicybof bilinguallism has been blocked or just cut out. i amm not going to rewite

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  • O Cuiv will be happy with his connection to the translation industry. More waste – all paper work is in both languages which means it costs twice what it costs in the UK. The minority dictating to the majority. Democracy dosnt exist in our so called republic. SF politicians should only be allowed use names that the majority understand.

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    • Are you mental? Seriously? People shouldn’t be allowed to have their names in whatever language they want? So if someone moves here from Poland or the Czech Republic they need to translate their name so “the majority understand”? Or does it just apply to Irish people?

      And how in the name of reason does the paperwork for Ireland (4 million people, 166 TDs) more expensive than the paperwork for the UK (55 million people, 650 MPs, 129 MSPs, 60AMs and 108 MLAs)? It’s translated into twice as many languages (except in Wales, where it’s the same amount), granted. But it’s still only a fraction of the paperwork, and therefore the cost.

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    • What’s Sinn Fein got to do with it? I’ve never supported Sinn Fein in my life, are you saying I’m not allowed have an Irish name because non-Irish speakers find it difficult to pronounce? Maybe the name Frank should be banned, there’s too many of them already…..

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    • What an effin bizarre comment. Very insular.

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  • All Irish speakers speak English – true but it’s not that straightforward. There are thousands of Irish speakers in Ireland whose English isn’t nearly as fluent as their Irish. That is a fact. Anyone who has spent some time in the Gaeltacht will know some of them. Their ability to read and fully understand any written legal document in English would be weak to say the least and to depend on their translations for absolute accuracy would be unwise. Granted many of them are middle aged or elderly and left school at an early age but yes, I think they are worth protecting and providing information to by giving them the option to seek the information in Irish.

    And in truth before you demand to meet them let me just say with honesty that many of these people are quite embarrassed by their lack of English prowess. For generations many Irish speakers were conditioned to believe that ignorance of English equated to them being stupid, backward and only fit for the bog. Discriminatory and insensitive anti-Irish tirades in all their forms contribute to many contemporary native speakers making the decision not to pass the Irish language onto their children. This is despite the fact that do so in the privacy of their own home would have no negative effect on the child’s ability to learn English outside the home.

    So congrats to the anti-Irish bashers. Keep bashing them down – you will succeed yet in making the remaining native speakers feel inadequate so that you can “save money”. Three cheers for the glorious citizens of the Irish Republic and for the protection of all civil liberties!

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    • Are you joking me? Can you please tell me where I can find some independent verification there about those poor Irish speakers whose English isn’t nearly as fluent as their Irish? I’ll be honest, I don’t believe a word of that. I HAVE spent time int eh Gealtacht and I actually go down there twice a year and I’ve never met any. In fact, in all my years living in Ireland, the thousands of Irish people I’ve met, not one of them is as you describe. I’d safely say if I was to ask any of my native Irish friends, they wouldn’t have met one of these people you describe. And I’m not being Anti-Irish, so stop trying to guilt me into backing down from the argument. It’s all too easy for you to take that route. I just think we handle the learning of Irish completely wrong in this country. It’s forced down our throats whether we like it or not, (and yes I DIDN’T like it). So if you’re going to get up on your moral high horse about civil liberties and what not, what about my civil liberties in this case.

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  • Brendan,

    Interesting how you suggest we leave the debate at this after alleging that i called you a racist, you suggest i actually want to put the “brits” out, banish “bearla” and get the church back in power!!! I’m not sure where you imagined this all up – it suggests you have preconceived stereotypes of people favorable to the Irish language or that you too suffer from a weakness in reading skills and simply dont understand my points?

    And while you offer to agree to disagree, you ignored the point about your education where you make out that Irish was the only subject forced down your throat while failing to clarify whether this forced and abusive learning was typical of your overall educational experience. Play the ball Brendan.

    In honesty I doubt you have enough valid points to debate this until the end of time. But it does seem pointless to begin a debate without being willing to finish it.

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    • Oops sorry I’ve been out of this one for ages. I missed a few updates!!

      First off I just stopped arguing from my side because I felt your last comment was getting too personal and emotionally heated! All that buff about being ignorant and what not. I prefer to keep the arguments more light hearted and in a good debate mode as opposed to getting emotionally charged. That just leads to all types of silly things being said that offer little to the argument in my opinion, but maybe I miss read your intentions! :)

      Anyway, to be honest, I HAVE been having this debate for donkeys years. Plus I’ve two brothers who are teachers so you can imagine the grief I get about it back in the homestead! :) We’ve all agreed to disagree as there’s no end to this argument, except, well the natural ending which is, like it or not, the demise of the language, which will happen. I just find it ironic that the more we try to preserve the language the more we actually risk killing it, e..g FORCING kids to learn it and trying to FORCE it into bureaucratic systems. All that serves to do is antagonise people and push people further away from it. Irish HAS a place in our culture. It’s part of our history. It’s good to recognise it, but why try to make it something that it isn’t, i.e. a live, breathing commonly spoken language.

      As for school… Irish was forced down my throat. I did 9 subjects for leaving cert and thanks to the fact that I HAD to learn Irish, other grades suffered due to lack of time spent on them. I had a choice in all my other subjects except Irish. As for my overall experience in school, like most kids, of course all subjects (bar a couple by a couple of talented teachers) WERE forced down my throat too, but I was bright enough to realise from an early age that although I may NOT use things like Geography, History, French etc. in day to day use they was a practical logic to having the knowledge. We do use elements of those subjects a lot and they form good foundations for general day to day knowledge. Every kid can see the practical benefits of knowing geography, or maths, but I think there are zero practical benefits of knowing Irish. And don’t fool yourself, school IS ALL ABOUT preparing kids for the rat race, like it or not. It’s all very well to say, its not all about economic well being, but practically speaking it is. They have to get the points to get the courses to get the jobs that provide an income. And they have to compete with international candidates, so lets make sure the subjects they learn in school will give them every possible advantage in that environment.

      Anyway, can we just agree to disagree? :) I’ve no doubt in my mind that you won’t change your stance on this, and that’s fine, but alas, neither will I. I just don’t agree with your points unfortunately… and like you, I’m self employed, and it’s 9.45 am.. I need to keep my clients happy! ;)
      (I just can’t resist an argument damnit!)

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  • Brendan, i’m completely serious and not just making that up as you suggest. I am not suggesting they cant exist in a bilingual world or hold low level to medium level conversations in English – im saying their English would be far from perfect.

    Independent verification…. brilliant idea!! Should we organise an exam for them?……

    Your time in the Gaeltacht: i doubt you spend time meeting the type of people i refer to: older, socially insular, in low paid, low skilled manual jobs, often farming/labouring. Many would have worked in Scotland and travelled with groups of their own friends and neighbours – (and no, this doesnt mean they would automatically have spoken perfect English. Consider the Lithuanians and Poles in this country for many years who dont speak perfect English.)

    You ARE being anti-Irish language, you are showing a level of ignorance and disrespect for the native language of your country (i presume you are Irish). Just because your opinions are common doesnt make them morally right. There is much open racism in this country – this doesnt legitimise it.

    And yes it is a basic issue of civil rights which thankfully are being protected by the constitution. Your civil liberties? Protecting your civil liberties doesnt include stopping spending on anything you think unworthy.

    By the way, i have sympathy for anyone who had the language shoved down their throat. Ignorance of the worst kind. The system, not the language is to blame and i think you should stand back and see the difference. I’ve met a good few who had your experience of Irish in school. However when pushed, most will accept that Fr XYZ or Master XYZ wasnt exactly an angel when teaching every other subject and to make out that the teaching of Irish was substantially different from the learning in that abusive environment is slightly odd to me…

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    • Golly!!! I’m an ignorant racists? Well… Thanks for so graciously taking the time to try and educate me. Unfortunately I just don’t have the level of intellectual enlightenment you possesses on this argument.

      I fail to see any logic in what you say and I find your comments totally unbelievable and without any solid official statistics to back them up. It sounds like some deluded fairy tail to me, but hey, you’re the enlightened one here. Im jast the ignorant racist.

      Anyway let’s just agree to disagree on this. We could be here till the end of time. I’ll respect your position and I hope you can do the same for me. Otherwise I’ll be the first against the wall when you kick the Brits out if the north, reclaim the island, banish the dreaded Bearla out of the land and get the church back in power.

      On a positive note… I think we’re the last two left on this story!!! :)

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    • Brendan, it’s a waste of time arguing with the Irish language elitists, they will bring up culture, call you a west Brit racist anything to avoid a sensible discussion on the complete waste of money that is the Irish language. Unfortunately they make up a large proportion of the civil service so unless the Troika can do something about this shocking duplication and waste of resources it’s unlikely to change.

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    • Hi Richard,

      Brendan and I agreed to differ. And in my case I didnt call anyone a west brit, i wouldnt consider myself elitist and i dont work in the civil service. I’m self employed and I dont get one cent of public money related to any Irish language supports so my only interest here is the language.

      I do believe the language is intrinsically linked to our culture and our national identity and while I accept that it’s easy to argue that there is money wasted in relation to the Irish language, it’s quite easy to argue the same in relation to almost every other department and area of Government expenditure. (Do i need to give examples..?)

      Furthermore its easy to argue that other academic subjects are fairly pointless – we dont often use our knowledge of geography, history, science etc in day to day lives (unless that is directly related to our chosen profession). However a level handed educational expert will understand that each subject develops a childs intellect and ability in some different way and that they are all valid. Yes, we could learn French or Spanish (as opposed to Irish) but they are as much more unlikely to be of “economic” use to Irish people as you might argue Irish is – i.e. there are lots of jobs in the country where Irish is useful. There’s very few where French or Spanish are essential.

      And yes, i believe that if you advocate abandoning the language, reversing the rights of speakers to the level that existed prior to our independence then i believe you are saying alot about your own belief in whats important about being an Irish person. If your justification is only an economic one, then I ask you what else would you abandon or cut for economic and capitalistic gain?

      Reply

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