I didn’t know that.. interesting..

So should Sinn Fein

That’s a reply to Briain’s question (further down)..

There are laws for conducting wars that are very clear about targeting civilians and civil authorities. If the Brits have to account for shooting civilians then it should work both ways or it’s hypocrisy.

A war would normally be carried out by a Sovereign State and the IRA don’t qualify. It is not surprising that they are not cooperating with the Tribunal as their Leadership in Dail Eireann continues to deny the evidence that he was a Senior Officer and Commanded the execution of a young mother while ordering the bombing of civilian targets in London.
Ah the Great Democrats and their need to be our Government!
Be very afraid.

Richard I would interested on your views on Syria. Do you think that their is a war in Syria, or how would you describe it. You seem to know so much I am surprised you haven’t been called by the tribunal to give evidence. Surely you have loads of evidence to give.

I think the whole point is that the IRA sees (or at least, saw) itself as the legitimate national army of a country that continued to exist.

The theory is that the Irish Republic declared by the Proclamation in 1916 was a legitimate national state, which represented all 32 counties. While the Rising was quickly defeated, it still set off a chain of republicanism that led to Sinn Fein winning most of the Irish seats in the House of Commons election in 1918. In that election, SF ran on the platform that they would not recognise Westminster and instead set up their own national parliament in Ireland. That met for the first time on January 21, 1919 (“Independence Day” in the eyes of some republicans) and declared the creation of a new country, the Irish Republic, which backdated its existence to 1916. This country was governed by their parliament, the ‘First Dáil’.

Britain, which still claimed to rule Ireland, passed the Government of Ireland Act 1920 to create two separate Irish states, Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland, and called elections for each of those for May 1921. Sinn Féin adopted the same stance as before, and considered the elections in Southern Ireland to be elections for the ‘Second Dáil’. Sinn Féin won 124 of the 128 seats (the other four were won by unionists standing in the University of Dublin constituency – as in, Trinity College).

It’s at this point that things begin to differ. The Second Dáil (or House of Commons of Southern Ireland, depending on which side you were on) was the one which narrowly approved the Anglo-Irish Treaty – which created an Irish Free State with the King of England as its head of state. This led to De Valera and half of the Sinn Féin party pulling out of the Dáil, declaring that the Irish Republic and the Anglo-Irish Treaty were totally incompatible (as the Irish Republic could not, by its own right, be part of any treaty that meant it answered to a foreign monarch). Dev set up his shadow government – the “Emergency Government”, as he called it – with the IRA as its army. This fought against the Irish National Army (the “official” army, if you will) in the civil war.

To cut a long story short, the theory is that some members of the IRA refused to recognise its ceasefire (again, believing that they couldn’t admit defeat to an army of an illegitimate government) and began to consider themselves as the true IRA, the only surviving part of the government of the Irish Republic. Those who subscribe to this theory believe that because the Irish Free State (and the creation of Northern Ireland itself, under the terms of the Treaty) were illegitimate, any elections held to either of those chambers were also illegitimate. Therefore the Second Dáil, in their eyes, was never dissolved – and any surviving members of the Second Dáil were the only legitimate government. In 1938 some of the few remaining anti-Treaty members issued a statement passing their “power” to the IRA Army Council, which therefore began to see itself as the only legitimate government of Ireland.

You can read more about this on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_republican_legitimism

Of course, it’s entirely up to the reader to decide for themselves whether they share that view – I’m just putting this in to explain the logic behind the use of the word “war” to describe the Northern Ireland conflict in some quarters.

Nice informative distinction Gavin that some people should know before they comment on this site. It the so called troubles was a war against an army of occupation. That army was the British army.

Gavan

Civilians? They were in the RUC, that would make them legitimate targets if I’m not grossly mistaken. Given the nature of the conflict at the time.
Not that it makes murder excusable.

Listen Steve ’twas a war when the Provos did the murdering,when innocent people got caught up in their nasty world, they were casualties of war, but,when one of their own was killed they were ” murdered ‘ by the British, their propaganda section wanted it both ways.

Didn’t your man, former O/C of the IRA McKevitt give evidence at this tribunal already?
I used to think he was a very clever/shrewd man until he was connected to blowing up Omagh.

Sorry to burst your bubble Patrick but the British Army used Northern Ireland as their playground in the 70′s and 80′s. It was a dirty war waged by 2 sides, not just 1. The fact of the matter is Irish people will always oppose having British soldiers on their streets. Thank God those days are gone.

Gerard
Please…..such outbursts indicate a worrying level of aggression and are indicative of Sinn Fein/IRA type behavior that your Party would bring into any Government in which they share power. We should be very afraid!

Condemn the UVF UFF RUC UDR British army Patrick the Brit

patrick is still bitter about his “fleg” coming down from belfast city hall.

:)

Patrick, Ireland has been in a constant state of war with the English/British crown since they usurped our sovereignty in the early 1170’s.. It’s the longest running war of independence on the planet. Are you a democrat Patrick? Just wondering because I’ve yet to hear you condemn the illegal riots in Belfast..

Like it or not Patrick, the Provisional IRA did have a huge support base in the north and would’ve been seen as the legitimate defenders of the nationalist community when countless Irish governments ignored them. Terrible atrocities we’re carried out not just by the IRA but by the British Army and loyalists. I have relations who were involved. They are not sub human Patrick. Neither are they stupid. Their friends were murdered on Bloody Sunday and they fought back.

Jamie, if you are going to go all the way back to 1170 we will never reach a conclusion on the troubles. Can we move on?

Where is Cal now with his constant talk of a truth and reconciliation commission? It just won’t work , see above article. A la carte truth!

Hi …. Miss me much ?

Nothing constructive to say? Too busy brown nosing Gerry ?

As per my comments on the truth and reconciliation program, I don’t see how this article and this tribunal detracts from my position. It only enhances it. Putting in place, a hierarchy of victims, is ridiculous. Like it or not, the RUC officers killed in this ambush, are the same ones he supported the shot to kill policy that ran for years in the north.
I condemn every single civilian murder, and the murder of Gardai in the south, as they were and are, an unarmed force.
Any IRA members, British security force members that died in the conflict, died fighting for their individual causes. They were not innocent victims.
I feel sorry for the pain and suffering for every family in the conflict. But, I think tribunals investigating the deaths of individual warring factions, are a complete waste of time.
A full truth and reconciliation program, is primarily aimed at the victims, so that they can move on. Until we are able to move on, there will always be a real and constant risk of a return to all out conflict. Why some people find that so hard to understand is beyond me.

Out of interest
What was our capital in the 1170s
Who were the last five kings?
What was the ruling dynasty called?
Where were regular parliaments held?
What currency was minted?
What other countries did we send embassies to, where did foreign countries send their embassadors to?

The answers will give you an idea about Irish sovereignty