oh and when we will see the headers of the bill published?

Well said..

Like borrowing money to give to Africa to make himself feel better

The over paid/pensioned TD fool has not a clue!

Ah, yes, yet another person who ignores that life-saving abortions are both medically and legally defined as abortion to make up his own definition! Tell you what, I’m going to start calling removal of appendixes “abortions” as it’s as valid as your arbitrary definition!

You are wrong on every count. If you’ve looked into it at all, you would know why. Doctors are asking, even pleading, for legislation. Abortion IS a medical treatment: the reason people shy away from calling it that is because they’re afraid of being punished for having one/carrying out one – EVEN WHEN THE MOTHER’S LIFE IS AT RISK. We know already that women have died because of lack of legistation. We also know (if you listen to mothers and pregnant women) that plenty of them suffer unduly because of the lack of clarity, and lack of abortion access.

I’m not even going to deal the disgraceful attitude you have about mental health. All I’ll say is this: women and girls can become suicidal because of pregnancy, and when that happens, an abortion is exactly what will save their lives. Also, women and girls with mental health problems may not be able to continue with a pregnancy because it would mean being taken off vital medication that allows them to function. You will never be an expert in these matters, and neither will our government, so why not give the experts the support they need to do their jobs and save women’s lives?

Suicide is in the top four reasons for maternal death.

And is the top is many developed countries. But let’s ignore the research which shows hormones of pregnancy have serious effects on mental health, STEPHEN has decided women don’t need to consult with their doctors on treatment since he knows better than all of them.

“Especially the point being made that someone with suicidal tendencies are not encouraged and should never take major life decisions”

Giving birth to and raising a child is a major life decision.. even if you’re not mentally ill.

Oh, don’t be silly, Deidre, pregnancy is just no big. A total “eh, whatevs!” decision (says Stephen, who has never been or will be pregnant.)

Theres no point debating with Stephen. I have read his posts the last two months and rarely does he respond to any rational argument made against his opinion so there’s not much point in trying. Stephen is an arch conservative catholic that is blind to anything other than what he is fed by the church. Its quite sad to see actually that he cant use his brain for himself.

Yeah… his post does seem to be pretty much entirely made up.

X Case legislation will mean aprox 5 women each year will be able to have an abortion here instead of being forced to travel.

5? Codswallop. We’re talking huge numbers and thats fact. Dressing this up as something else and putting out disinformation won ‘t work.

That is the number of women which our perinatal psychiatrist estimate and they are the ones dealing with suicidal pregnant women. Do you know better? Are you a medical professional working in this area?

I think Stephen is under the impression that legislation for X means any woman can get an abortion if they so wish.

Otherwise he’s saying that 4000 plus pregnant women’s lives are at risk. If that were true, sure no one would ever risk getting pregnant!

I bet they said something similar in the UK and now the worrying trend of gender selective abortions has even raised it’s ugly head over there.

You don’t have to bet, read the Hansard debates for the 1967 Abortion Act. It wasn’t said.

Are you saying Irish people are generally sexist and would prefer a son to a daughter? That says more about you than it does about Ireland.

More of it! Show me where the proposed legislation will limit the numbers of abortions. Show me.

30 or so abortions are carried out every year in Ireland. I’m asking you how many more will be carried out due this proposed legislation? Taking a mean figure from countries with similar legislation. You can bet the numbers are huge. This is fact.

Why would you limit the number of life-saving abortions? “No, sorry, you’re just going to have to die as we’ve already reached our weekly limit for abortions.”

Speak some sense, will ya?

Hang on a minute Nick you’re not Irish and you don’t live here. Why should we listen to you? Sort your own country out first before you tell us how to run ours.

Gender selective abortion is a cultural issue that stems from the theistic beliefs of those cultures that women are lesser humans than men. What are you doing to try and tackle that ignorance?

Good comment there, Terry. Don’t bother talking about Nick’s points on their own merit; instead, try to undermine them by commenting on where she’s from. Go you.

Stephen. Sit down and do some reading for yourself.

If you’re afraid it’ll “open the floodgates”… Well, thousands of women have abortions every year. They will continue to do so. They have abortions in countries where it is legal, and they have abortions in countries where it is not. Many women die or suffer horribly because of it. They have abortions even when they know it might mean death.

Whether we allow access to abortion here or not, it will continue to happen. The only difference is: if it’s legal, women won’t risk death or suffering, and abortions will happen at an early stage when there’s a huge chance of miscarriage anyway.

And if you look at Canada, where they haven’t felt the need to make abortion into a political or moral issue at all and it is freely available, they have one of the lowest abortion rates in the world.

If I were you, Stephen, I would stop wringing my hands about this: thousands of Irish women have abortions every day already, keeping it illegal does absolutely nothing to stop them, it just adds an extra layer of suffering and misery for pregnant women and their families.

Savita wasn’t Irish either, nor was Michelle Harte, nor were several of the women who went through the heartbreak of terminations for medical reasons. I was under the impression that all women who went through pregnancy in Ireland should be able to share their experiences, but maybe Michelle, Savita and I don’t count?

I thought in your opinion I was the mother of an Irish child who tragically died of natural causes, or are you just full of crap?

Stephen O’Donnell why are you presuming that the legislation which will be put in place will be the same as that which was put in place in the UK in the 60s?

Have you seen the yet unpublished proposed legislation?

Ciaran: Just don’t have abortion on demand, problem solved. There is actually no need for it. I don’t know one single pro-lifer that isn’t in favour of it when medically (except for the god squad) needed but that isn’t good enough for the more ‘progressive’ people.

Conor: I don’t think we should listen to any Americans on the issue. Not when there’s religious nuts on one side and people that think its fine to have an abortion rate of about 40% in New York on the other. And how the hell does she know it wouldn’t happen?! Did god tell him?

Eleen: They fairly keep it quite about all these women dying or are you just talking pony?

I’m very sorry to hear that Nick but my point still stands that if you’re not from here or live here it’s none of your business.

And so what if it is 10s or 100s or 1000s? You’ll never have to have one, so it’s none of your business Stephen.

Ah, so Americans who have gone through pregnancy in Ireland with Irish partners are exactly the same thing as Republicans who have never been to Ireland but figure they know all about it because their grandfather came from there? Right.

And if you think gender selective abortion would happen, then you are arguing that Irish people are inherently sexist and would prefer a son to a daughter, which seems ridiculous to most people who lived there. But maybe it’s different in your family?

Terry who are you to say that a woman has to stay pregnant even if she doesn”t want to by? There are many women who do not wish to have children and you know as well as anyone that contraception is never infallible; there will always be unwanted pregnancies.

Now are you seriously going to argue, in front of all these nice people, that a woman who doesn’t to want children has no business having sex?

How do you know that it wouldn’t happen? It’s the very same as the argument that a woman could say she was suicidal just to have an abortion when she wasn’t. No body can say either would or wouldn’t. Do you not care that you’re fore promoting the termination of healthy human beings? Of course not ultra feminism doesn’t allow for that.
All we have to do is to look at America to see the problems with abortion on demand. That figure of 40% in New York I just can’t get my head around, it is actually frightening.

Yes Terry, because New York is after all such a dangerously underpopulated place…..

Because it’s not like that’s a slightly misleading figure because women from all over the US come to NYC for abortion access they can’t get in their home state (hint: it is.)

No John I’m just arguing that the termination of what will be a perfectly healthy human being is not the right answer but you can keep on believing that’s what all pro-lifers think if it makes feel better about yourself.

Well, then aren’t you lucky you’ll never have to make that decision, Terry? Unlike many women in Ireland of any nationality.

Ok just look at the figures from the UK (22%) which you tried your best to deny, which were true and the Journal itself also backed up.

I pointed out that those figures don’t take account of miscarriages – which end between 1/4 and 1/3 of pregnancies. Only late miscarriages (which are the less common) occur in hospitals, so few would be on record. So if you include miscarriages which are recorded in a hospital, it’s 18% of pregnancies. Far less if you include women who quietly miscarriage at home.

This would indicate you understand very little about the mechanics of pregnancy and kind of proves everyone’s point that people who have actually been pregnant probably understand it a bit better!

Just say you’re right about the figures 18% is still just as crazy a number as 22%. And an even scarier figure is that of that 18-22%, 26% are repeat abortions. Kind of blows the whole ‘it wouldn’t be used as contraception’ myth out of the water.

And you totally ignored my point about miscarriages. Of course, since you’ve never had one, it’d probably be irrelevant to you! (Wonderful when men lecture women about pregnancy.)

The Guttmacher Institute did research which indicated the largest cause of repeat abortion was due to abusive partners sabotaging contraception. How respectful to domestic violence survivors to call that “birth control.”

Also curious – if you believe a woman having multiple abortions is careless murderer, exactly why would you want her to parent? That seems a bit insensitive to the child.

I’m just going to stop right here because there is no point in trying to get my point across to you when the feminist blinkers have come on and leaves you without the ability to even read. Just before I leave I’d like to point out how you selectively left out from is that that of that 26%, 30% of them were due to abusive relationships. You also left out that studies have shown that abortion leads to more violence, arguing and abuse in current relationships.
You should get a job with the government as a spin doctor.

Ooh, sounds like Nick hit a nerve there. G’wan so Terry, butt out because you clearly have no idea what you’re rabbiting on about.

Yes, if by “feminist blinkers”, you mean “fact blinkers”, “first hand knowlege of this through extensive work in the area.” Please provide your citation that abortion causes abuse in a relationship, because the only people who have EVER suggested that were LifeSiteNews, in their deliberate misrepresentation of a University of Iowa studies.

Abortions don’t cause domestic abuse. They provide women with an opportunity to cut ties with an abuser they would otherwise be forced to have continuing contact with for 18 years.

And 30% of those is a massive figure – at least for those who care about women. You’re a bit out of your depth here.

It always makes me laugh when they roll out the old feminist villian chestnut.

Feminism is about equal opportunity for men and women. I would never stop a man from having an abortion if that was his choice.

The blinkers was in reference to you not being able to read the first line of my comment. When all is said theres no need worry because the people will never let it happen in ireland. The people on the journal seem to think that they are the majoity but if recent protests anything to go by youll be mistaken.

Yes, if Ireland was a country where there was mob rule, then that would be true. But Ireland functions as a democracy, and if there are so many opposed to X legislation, they must have slept through 2 (not one, but two) referendum. I’m sorry about that, but sometimes in democracy, you don’t convince enough people. It’s rough.

Read up on the constitution. The unborn have rights. That might not suit you, it’s your choice to try bring this nation back to the dark ages. It’s my choice to try save lives.

Whatever rights the unborn have, they should not trump the rights of already living, breathing women.

“The people on the journal seem to think that they are the majoity but if recent protests anything to go by youll be mistaken.”

I think Terry imagines – like many other antichoicers – that the 10,000 people on Merrion Square in January is a majority of the Irish population, when in reality, that was just 0.002% of the country’s population. Lol.

Terry you seem to be operating under the belief that everyone share your unfounded view that an embryo is a human being; they don’t. Therefore the statistics you mention are in no way shocking to many people because we believe there is nothing wrong with a woman choosing to remove an embryo from her womb.

Eleen
legislation for the X case as some on here have already stated is just the starting point, a stepping stone..
Once permission is giving to intentionally end the life of the unborn on any condition then it can and will be expanded upon..
Manipulated as in UK where photocopied pre-signed forms are just waiting to be filled out..

Hmm
” give the experts the support” yea your right there because not one of our experts at the recent hearings agreed that abortion was the answer..

Using Canada as an example of good practice is not good.. Canada left over 300 live born “babies” to die last years..

Bridget 2 seconds on Google exposes you as a liar

“Where the statistic cited by the MPs comes in — the 491 fetuses — is where a fetus shows any “evidence of life,” no matter how briefly, following separation from the mother. In those cases, reporting standards call for medical personnel to report that a “live birth” has occurred and issue the fetus with a birth and death certificate.

Evidence of life can include “beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles,” explains the official Statistics Canada classification.

The subjectiveness of the classification is known to cause bedside arguments among medical staff over whether a live birth certificate is necessary.

“I can certainly remember one case where in my view the nurse was wanting to make a point as she did not agree with termination,” said the anonymous obstetrician; the nurse wanted to classify the aborted fetus as a live birth, while her colleagues disagreed.”

The 491 figure is from 2000 to 2009 and includes deaths that were not related to abortion in anyway.

Is Stephen honestly silly enough to make the argument that X case legislation is incompatible with the Bureacht na hEireann? Has he bothered to read it or just “insert Youth Defence talking point here”?

Ciaran, are you telling LifeSiteNews could have POSSIBLY MISLED Bridget in any way?

Bridget, legal or not, thousands of women have abortions already. There won’t be any floodgates even if full access to abortion is granted. You can’t deny that keeping abortion illegal doesn’t work. In all countries where it is illegal, women find ways to have abortions. It’s what happens now, and has always happened.

There are traditional folk songs about gathering certain herbs and plants to induce miscarriages, there are references to ending pregnancies in stories and history, women will continue to need and want abortions. And unfortunately, unless you chain them up, you will never be able to stop them.

If you spent as much time as you do here advocating for safe sex and free contraception and proper sex education, you’d do a lot more to reduce the number of women and girls seeking abortions.

You cant argue with what has happened in the UK.. Any country it was ever in restricted or not it had increased…

Just because they are having and will continue to still have them does not make it right..
And does not mean it should be legalised..

But whether or not it is right for that circumstance surely depends on the circumstances?

You view it one way Bridget, and other people view it differently. It’s not the same as murder as there is an overwhelming majority who agree that killing another person who is a person in their own right is wrong. Some people attach personhood to a potential person – not yet capable of being born, and that is where the disagreement starts.

There is no general consensus on this issue, and no true way to reconcile the rights of the woman carrying the pregnancy with the foetus she carries, so for this reason we have to respect others decisions on what is right for them. Hopefully as early on as possible, because the further the pregnancy progresses the more hazy the line becomes, hence why clear and concise legislation is sorely needed.

With regards the suicide clause, we have been asked twice to exclude it and the people rejected the motion. We also enshrined the right to travel and information in our constitution. For this reason we are legally obligated to ensure that our legislation follows from our constitution, at present it doesn’t, it contradicts it. Our constitution as it stand now will not permit wide scale abortion. It will take a referendum to introduce that, so why oppose ensuring that the will of the people is expressed?

Yes Edna’s worst nightmare
Just when he thought it’d gone away Eamo vomits it up again

The sad thing is he actually sounds proud to be introducing something so wrong based on something so flawed… He’s not doing it for the “good of the people” but pushing his own agenda..

It’s a bit disingenuous of you to have a pop at Gilmore because he’s an athiest. For years the catholic church has targeted the most vulnerable in our society. Subjecting them to torture and abuse.

@ Thomas Blake
It is true, as soon as I had posted it I saw I was being unfair to all those good atheists who marched for life in Dublin. But I don’t believe this is true of the aggressive atheism, that leads atheists to be anti all things which the church supports.
Might I just point out that you are being just as disingenuous with the unending labelling of the church. It is a great servant to society, has continually apologised for the wretched behaviour of the few, yet you continue to tar the good deeds of many who have given their lives in noble service.

@ Paddy Scully. I suggest you watch the documentary Silence in the house of god. Which shows the cover up of child abuse goes all the way to the Vatican. I can’t remember a full apology from benedict for his part in the cover up. Instead he called child abuse in the church a mystery. Where is the compensation for the abused? I suppose aviation fuel isn’t cheap. As for the march, most of the people that marched are not against abortion when it is medically necessary, so they are the most disingenuous, supporting a youth defense funded march. It wasn’t long ago youth defence were saying abortion is never needed to save the life. They stopped when it was exposed as a lie.

“many who have given their lives in noble service” – are you talking about the Crusades or the Inquisition? I have many individual Catholics I admire, but to portray the hierarchy of the church as containing many martyrs for some greater good strikes me as reaching a wee bit.

@ Paddy Scully. I also forgot to mention that the primate of all ireland felt that it wasn’t important to report Brendan Smyth to the police, but still swore Smyth’s victims to secreticy, prolonging their abuse. Clearly the hierarchy of the church different view on right and wrong than everyone else.

AT LAST! Someone with logic and reason in the midst of virulence. Well done.

but it wasn’t the wretched behaviour of the few . every country in the world has been affected by the church. stop making excuses for them.

As I said the aggressive atheists, fuelled by hate for the church of Christ, can only see that which meets their agenda. It was a few who offended, more or less the same percentile level of offenders as are in the world at large. The church is in deep shock and regret for the abusers actions, and the slowness with which it came to grips with dealing with the abusers.
But it it obvious to most thinking persons, that tarring the church is easier than finding good reasons for abortion. The church carries the shame for the few anointed who abused, but societies around the world should be in fear and trepidation for the 1.2 million children they will kill by abortion this year.

“the few anointed who abused”. you are only fooling yourself !

My my, the only options are “aggressive atheists” or Catholics, is it? I didn’t realise that anyone could decide another branch of Christianity was more consistent with Jesus’s life and teachings. I really can’t see him telling anyone they should “tremble with fear.”

What was it Ghandi said? “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

Indeed Nick, Gandhi pretty much summed it up well.

Why the critique of Gilmore because of his atheism? Arent our politicians meant to keep their religion out of politics? Seperation of the state from religious matters is the way it is supposed to be.

Politicians can be as religious as they like, but they need to leave it out of Leinster House when dealing with civil legislation.

I should know better than to argue on the internets but here goes anyway…..

@PaddyScully, The church carries the shame for covering up, keeping silent and protecting child abusers too. That sin/crime was commit by more than a few and was done so repeatedly and at all levels of the RC church up to the top. I can understand why someone might therefore see no moral authority in such an organisation after this joint enterprise.

As for “aggressive atheists who hate the church”, you’re resorting to name calling and assumption here. In the same way you might resist others opinions being enforced on you, others will do the same. Also, your absolutist rhetoric (e.g. “FG trade it’s soul”) on abortion doesn’t match previous church doctrine on the matter, the RC church used to have no problem with abortion so long as it took place before “ensoulment”. And when an abortion took place after this time it was considered a sin but one that was less than murder. So if facilitating abortions through the introduction of such law means one has to trade their soul (be evil, or whatever else) then many past church leaders and officials have committed the same sin through their rulings.

Let me also say, RC church teaching has been wrong in the past and changed over time, so when advocating your dogma, as is your right, you might just remember that.

@ Conor Buggy
I half agree with you Conor. I do not agree with any one religion having its precepts exclusively incorporated into the laws of the land. On the other hand, our faith, whichever kind, should mould our morals, behaviour and conscience, and thus shape what we will stand for in the public square. Our laws need to protect all faiths, beliefs, and lack of any faith.
What I find objectionable as a catholic is when a catholic politician supports legislation that would deliberately target the unborn, and then have the neck to collect donations at the church gate, not to mention going to the altar rails.
I believe Gilmore, lives by an ideology that is certainly not representative of my views, and is inspired by an aggressive form of Atheism. I respect all religions, and atheism, but if a set of beliefs target the child in the womb, I for one will not stand idly by.

So non-Catholic politicians supporting legalisation of abortion are all well and good, then? I suppose you’ll be leaving all C of I politicians alone, then!

you let your argument down by your constant use of “aggressive atheism”. similar pondering can be heard by zionists sprouting “anti-Semitic” at every opportunity. would it surprise you to know that most “aggressive atheists” would be more educated in religious doctrine than there religiously devoted counterparts ? hense the church’s vain attempt to keep control of the states educational needs. when your greatest enemy is education , your have already lost the fight.

Atheist eh? You do realise there are other religons/churches that allow for abortion under certain conditions?

Why oh why keep bringing the church into this.. Ok they are pro life but so are many many others…

That has nothing to do with brining in abortion on a Flawed X Case..
We all know that some clergy did terrible terrible things & covered up etc and they should all be arrested and punished for these disgusting things that everyone abhorred even practicing catholic…

But what about other abusers, fathers, grandfather, uncles doctors, teachers, lawyers even judges.. Should we discredit their comment to?!?!
Stop going off topic.. Crusades, inquisition etc as below…

There are just bad people in all walks of life..

Look at what abortion is on its own..
The intentional taking of a life at whatever stage.,,. Not life saving treatment giving to a woman that’s life is on danger.. It’s the intention..
In this country over 30 such life saving treatments were giving last yr, them doctors had no doubts about saving the mothers life..
Thousands of women are traveling to UK, a country which believe it or not have quite restrictive laws but which are used “under pretence”
so if these woman who are traveling, getting referred for a number of reason some as simple as ” a woman who has just sent her youngest to university and does not want to start parenting again” as wad quoted yesterday..
Then can you imagine the amount who would be availing of these “services” here if it was available… Many many more…
Don’t say it won’t happen here, we are no different to any other country..
Look at UK over 90+% are on suicidal grounds.
Look at America Canada the numbers are horrendous … The numbers increased dramatically after a couple of yrs..

For the sake of clarity, many individuals, in many belief systems, either oppose or support abortion, but Eamon is a professed atheist and like all aggressive atheists, or indeed aggressive secularists, moves against Catholics involvement in anything; be that governance, education, social concerns, adoption, etc. It was best personified by his stable mate recently who forwarded the view that catholic bishops should not publicly state views on state issues with moral content.
I love all of my Protestant fellow travellers, and I deny no one the right to lobby as per their beliefs, but I too, at the moment, have the right to express my views, and I’m pro life!

Bridget, where do you spin those stats out of, thin air?

“Look at UK over 90+% are on suicidal grounds.”

Nope. In Britain(not NI, sadly) it is legal to have an abortion up to 24 weeks gestation if you believe continuing with the pregnancy could be harmful to your health and well-being. After 24 weeks, it is legal if it’s continuing the pregnancy is a risk to your life or the foetus has fatal abnormalities. Nothing to do with suicide at all.

@PaddyScully, if you’re going to continue using the term “aggressive atheists” would you mind defining the term so we understand what you mean. What’s the difference between an atheist and an aggressive atheists?

Also, if there are aggressive atheists and aggressive atheists, do it also follow that there are aggressive Catholic and aggressive religious?

Regarding “moves against Catholics involvement in anything”, would it be fair to say that there are also those who try to advance moves *for* Catholics involvement in anything/*everything*?

@ Wesley Gorman
By aggressive atheists, I mean those among the atheist community, who are not satisfied with not believing in a deity, but pursue an agenda aimed at removing all vestiges of such beliefs from society. In the process is is natural for them to discriminate against those who do not agree with them. In the UK for instance catholic organisations had to exit from adoption services. With the redefinition of marriage, even though they say Catholics won’t have to preside at such, there is no guarantee that catholic funded halls will be exempted from having to be available for receptions etc.
There is widespread antagonism toward people of faith, where there faith clashes with the new god, the self.

Oh no, Catholics might not be allowed to be bigoted against gay people. What a tragedy, Paddy. Truly awful.

Sorry that should have said 97% of 189,931 abortions were on Mental Health grounds..
according to the Abortion Statistic, England and Wales 2011: National Statistics Dept oh Health, May 2012..

‘Mental Health’ doesn’t necessarily mean suicide. It’d find the entire experience of an unwanted pregnancy and forced childbirth extremely emotionally distressing and traumatising, so I would qualify for a legal abortion under such a qualification.

Or would you make me suffer, Bridget?

Jessica
If you know that you would find pregnancy ” extremely emotionally distressing” then I would suggest that you don’t get pregnant, Lots of options available out there..

Yes – including terminating the pregnancy. It’s not like Jessica’s opposed to sex ed or provision of contraception (that would be people like Paddy, trying to deny women options.)

The fact that you conflate mental health with suicidal would indicate your lack of any knowlege about mental health.

And the church was brought into this because Paddy discussed it as an issues for his religion – while speaking ridiculousness about how Catholic churches will have to marry same sex couples. They won’t and it’s beyond disgusting how his view of freedom of religion only extends to catholicism – he seems mighty unconcerned about how my church, which wishes to marry these couples, would have our religious freedom restricted otherwise. Totally hypocritical, of course.

No… because in her case I would think that a abortion would be “extremely” selfish when she had so many options to start with!!

The only way to 100% avoid pregnancy is to invest in a steel, locked chastity belt… Is that what you’re suggesting, Bridget? Every other option has failure rates, small but not insignificant.

You don’t know anything about me Bridget, so presuming to call a potential decision to have an abortion selfish is pretty rude and judgemental. Keep your nose out of other women’s affairs.

That’s nice. I think refusing to donate blood on a regular basis if you’re eligible is a selfish decision, since you have the option to save a life if you do, but I’m not about to pass a law requiring it, as I believe in bodily integrity.

Tell me, Bridget, since you’re all about saving lives, you donate blood religiously, right?

Well jessica, I suppose if YOU think thats a good idea and it fits, then sure why not!! :)

Exactly. She knows a lot more about her circumstances than you do!

I’m glad we’re all in agreement! :3

Yes I do give blood actually..

I wouldn’t know her business or be commenting on it only she posed the question to me on here..

So chastity belt it is so.. :)

That’s sad, Bridget. I myself plan to get married and enjoy a lifelong committed relationship with children (which requires no chastity belt), but maybe you’re opposed to those! To each their own.

@paddy we live in a secular state not a theocracy so why are you against the concept that politicians should leave their religion outside of the work we do to ensure the integrity of our state?

Am i an aggressive secularist because I believe that religion should be kept out of our politics, our governance, our health system and education system? I support an individuals right to practice their religion but they or any organisation should not be allowed to interfere with civil matters. Why should anyones beliefs be allowed to interfere with an individuals rights?

Congratulation Nick, I wish you a long happy marriage..
We were married 25 yr there in January so no I’m not opposed to it.. :)

@ Jessica Hyland
Ah Jessica, the all encompassing b word. I’m pretty sure many good gays attend mass on Sundays. I know many of them are against the redefining of marriage (25%), does that make them bigoted? Don’t think so. I have the greatest respect for gay persons, but I also have a respect for marriage as defined by society for millennia. To close the adoption agencies in the UK because they would not promote adoption to gay couples, is not equality but tyranny, not freedom just repression.

@paddy where do you get that 25% statistic from? I sure as hell know no gay people that are happy to simply accept a second class form of union instead of full civil marriage.

@ Conor Buggy
I’m not sure we don’t live in a theocracy, one could say that the aggressive atheist/secularist religion is enforcing its creed on the populous. Eamon is forcing Enda, against stated promises, to introduce abortion, in a manner that can only be described as anti democratic.
What you mean when you say keep religion out of politics is religions that you don’t prescribe to, your particular beliefs are ok I presume. To leave our personal belief systems at the gate, as it were, is at the least hypocrisy, if not down right schizophrenia.

No when i say religion should be kept out of politics i mean all religions without exception.

The nature of a coalition in government is compronise. FG made a party political statement to get votes while they were in opposition. They did not win an outright mandate to govern by the citizens of Ireland. Therefore they had to compromise on some of their political statements. Just as Labour have had to do on some of theirs. Thats the nature of politics.

I think you are simply pi55ed off that good old catholic Enda is being forced to conpromise by his atheist political partner Eamonn.

Atheism and secularism is not a religion and neither has a creed. So please stop trying to make them sound like one. Thats like equating catholics with jedi.

Conor Buggy I always knew you rocked but never more so than now!

Lol thanks EMD! Not sure why ya think that now. Paddy and I can be reasonable when we debate to be fair. We just have opposing ideas, sometimes though rarely we share similar sentiments. But fortunately he never resorts to personal attacks or bizarre irrationality unlike some on here. I can respect paddy for his opinions. But others on here absolutely take the pi55 with their loathsome comments. I am pretty sure there are plenty that absolutely despise my comments but I am certain paddy is not one of them.

Paddy.
Just a correction.
The Irish people voted twice on whether to remove the suicide risk from the grounds for abortion, we said no both times which means that we voted to keep it in.
As it stands now our constitution and our legislation stand at odds with each other. The ECHR told us to sort that out, Gilmore is simply trying to ensure we meet our democratic obligations. Sorry to break it to you, but this is the results of democracy, you’re welcome to disagree, but it won’t change anything..

@ Conor Buggy
On politics its ok to compromise, on moral issues, not so in my view. As a result I am as you put it somewhat “pi55ed off” by Endas about turn under pressure from Gilmore. But in fairness to Enda, I know they have to deal with the issue created by the faulty xcase ruling. I just want him to be true to his commitment and do whatever is necessary to prevent abortion as a solution for suicidal presentation.
I don’t accept your take on atheism not being a religion. My credo is “I believe in God”, the atheists is “I don’t believe in God”, in my view it takes a lot more faith to believe the latter. My credo leads me to protect human life at all stages, the atheists faith lets them create their own moral parameters which may, or may not, lead to the same goal.
And yes Conor, I do respect that you honestly hold your opinions, and you do defend what you believe are issues effecting the gay lobby, just as I defend the unborn whenever I can.

Paddy.
You want him to “be true to his commitment and do whatever is necessary to prevent abortion as a solution to suicidal presentation”

But this would mean ignoring the results of two referendums Paddy. That would be undemocratic. The people rejected the exclusion of suicide twice. It doesn’t matter what promises Enda Kenny made, he is obliged to legislate. As were all governments over the past 21 years, the difference is, they didn’t have Europe standing over them pointing out their failures until now.

The only way to exclude suicide would be a third referendum on the same thing. So perhaps if we are going to have a referendum we should revisit the 8th amendment instead.

Saying that atheism is a religion is like saying that when you switch off your tv, OFF is a channel.

Oh and Paddy dont forget I an not an atheist. I am a christian, just not a catholic. I am a secular christian that prefers faith to remain a personal choice that should not interfere with anyone elses lives. I spread my good news when someone asks me about it.

Hear Hear Connor! Beliefs are fine, we are all entitled to them, provided we do not expect any one else to live according to them.

@ Conor Buggy
Two points on your analogy, even though the tv is off you still pay the licence fee, and secondly, even though the tv is off the air is still filled with digital information, not believing does not make god go away.
I’m not sure but secularism and Christianity are somewhat contradictory to each other. I agree however that faith is a personal choice, and we are all free to accept or reject Christ, that is why we say Christ never sends someone to hell, that is a condition/place we choose for ourselves. Hope your faith journey goes well.