And what about the 786? Who’s going to monitor them, I ask?

I hope their union negotiated compensation for that extra training they attended

Mental. What have they been doing thus far these managers? This would and should have been part of their job already! It seems these managers need reprimanded as they haven’t done what they have been paid to do already. Does minister Reilly want congratulated for ensuring that people are doing something which should have been done all this time?

Leopoldo it’s not as easy as it seems. These people have sick certs. They are operating in a highly unionised environment. Simple performance management can result in accusations of bullying. It can also lead to gossip and sabotage of the manager. It’s very important to have clear parameters in which to deal with this kind of thing. Support from HR and senior management is essential. I don’t work in HSE by the way but I can empathise with the difficulties.

Geoff – they’re exactly who I had in mind when I said work that actually needs doing …

It’s the flippant nature of the first half of your comment that’s the problem.

Sorry if you thought I was being flippant.

@geoff,

Don’t know much about Guards/ Firemen and Paramedics but hopefully won’t need a nurse in Louth hospital
10 % absenteeism

Why apologize for being flippant about the joke that is the HSE? When all the county boards were combined, what efficiencies resulted from the consolidation? ZERO.

That doesn’t mean they are not doing anything

I don’t think this means 5,921 are not working but it’s still probably a fairly high figure.

A return to work discussion is held after a sick day. I think.

David – totally agree

well said, but we also have to look then and make sure they are qualyfied ! no use of just hire ppl that have no idea what and how to do the job.

Basis for dismissal? Is every person who gets a job qualified to do it or does training happen at all these days…..uneducated comments as usual. Everyone in the private sector works like dogs

“Dismiss all of them”, brilliant, you’ve obviously put a lot of thought into this. So, you plan to close all the country’s hospitals, presumably putting the patients in them on the streets and those that are too ill, oh well casualties of your “dismissal” as you just fired those who are the only ones who are capable of keeping them alive. Although I suspect the staff wouldn’t go, to most it’s a vocation, saving lives is what they do.
Schools next, out the students go, life is a learning process they can teach themselves. I guess our next generation of doctors will be interesting?
Gardai next, well they’re practically patrolling on bicycles anyway as they haven’t had the necessary investment to update their equipment. I imagine crime will be a problem though, we’ll just have to cope with the anarchy, another casualty.
Firefighters next, well they’ve had the same problem as the Gardai, lack of investment in equipment has led to some Dublin City Firefighters taking legal action to get breathing apparatus that works and won’t cut out on them, something wrong when their equipment is more lethal then the fires they fight. Speaking of fires, I expect the anarchy will lead to a LOT more of them, better stock up on fire extinguishers. Still, it can’t be helped. Can it?
Any body with a staff of over 130,000 people are going to have problems and issues, there would be something seriously wrong if everything was reported as ticking along nicely. It couldn’t possibly. There will be the same problems found everywhere else, just magnified, absenteeism, attendance issues, drug and alcohol problems and poor management. And believe me Cisca there are many, many well qualified, experienced staff working their fingers to the bone every day for the benefit of us, the Public, the majority of whom are on low pay but have to listen to this shite day in, day out. I’ve just been at my local hospital today, and a patient earlier this week, listening to the abuse the excellent staff have to take. It’s unfair. It should be directed elsewhere.
We in this country are no different from any other, we need a Public Service but our government have succeeded in directing our anger towards the Public Sector, this is misplaced agression, we should be angry towards the banks, property developers and our own government. It has been estimated that for every billion euro the Public Service are paid 750 million of that goes back into the national economy, much of it locally. This is worth remembering.

Rusty, just taking one of your points – we have a poorly equipped fire service that doesn’t even cover the entire country and which charges a call out fee in certain county council areas (e.g. to a car accident). That is a legacy of the “boom” years. I don’t know why it wasn’t prioritized then, but all of this just speaks to the same point. The Irish public sector is incredibly inefficient and bad value for money. What’s your proposal for addressing the issues?

@censored The Fire Service doesn’t cover the entire country because there were cutbacks imposed on it, the same thing with Garda stations all over the country. They didn’t decide this, our esteemed governments did. It’s the same thing with the fees charged to attend fires, the Firefighters didn’t sit around a table one evening in each station and decide a “price list”, “what do you think Mick €500 for a car fire sound reasonable”. Our government forced Local Councils to charge for this.
I agree that, to a degree, this is a legacy of the boom years in that when we had some wealth in the country it was squandered when it should have been invested but I don’t see how you suddenly make the jump to concluding that the irish Public Sector are “incredibly inefficient and bad value for money”. There are OECD reports that compare our Public Sector to European counterparts and contradict you point of view, these were even before the majority of levies and cuts but we tend to be drip fed tabloid quotes that gives people the view the government wants.
Earlier this year Fine Gael TD Simon Harris submitted Dail questions to get the exact figures from everyone. In 2011 all 14 Public Service departments took 181,665 sick days costing €26.5million, with about 300,000 employees this works out at an average of less than 2 sick days per person per year. In 2011 for example sick leave cost €642,169, this year it has so far cost €255,735. IBEC carried aout a similar survey and concluded absenteeism in the Private Sector in the same year cost €1.5billion with a rate of 2.58%. Days before this the government were quoting figures of up to €500million for the public Service, it was splashed over every front page. They lied.

I understand what you’re saying, and yes there is contradictory information. However, I don’t base my opinion entirely on media reports. I’ve lived in other countries and I can tell you that euro-for-euro they get more value for their tax revenue than we do. It’s a question of planning and priorities – for example, we spend a lot of money on health but still need private health insurance as well, and the the health system is a shambles. Maybe I should have said the “Irish State” instead of “Public Sector” but just to be clear – I think the problem is with the leadership.

“I think the problem is with the leadership”, on that we agree completely. Those doing the job largely do a thankless job, by and large the Public Servants I’ve met just want to do their job, get on with it and serve the Public. Yes there’s always the odd ejit, maybe they’re having a bad day, the dog died or they’re always like that, but that happens everywhere doesn’t it? I just feel those actually doing these jobs are taking the brunt of the anger which should be directed elsewhere, as you said it’s poor leadership for which they take the shite. Nurses, gardai or firefighters don’t make the decisions about cutbacks, closures, price hikes etc. but take the abuse for it and more.

@ alan ? i am talking about the hundreds of ppl who do work and are not qualyfied. i have worked my whole life in health care, also here in ireland, private sector, and at my place from the 20 care staff only 3 have the qualyfication ! i know the work is hard and i know its more a vocation.
what i mean is that all the staff also the nurses need a specialisation of the work they do. have seen ppl send of to hospital, while there was no need for that, and if you tell that, u need to shut up ! ppl who were depressed and therefore refused to eat or drink. i am a qualyfied geriatric nurse, so i know what im talking about.
how can they put an accountant as a manager of an nursinghome ?…he/she knows about finances, but nothing about the human care….so my point is make sure your staff is trained or send them to training.

‘It’s real real world’. Me man, I hungry eat food. Is this how people communicate in your ‘real’ world?

What is the average sick days per year in the private v public sector? I would love to know.

I’d say you are a delight to work for Sid.

Thats about to change sid. The government want us employers to contribute to sick leave. Another reason not to employ people.

@ Chris. Just as an example, I’m self employed for the last ten years and in that time I think I’ve had about five sick days. Not saying I want a clap on the back or anything but that’s my case. I don’t work and I don’t get paid. Too much abuse of sick pay in public sector if u ask me

Brian, I’m in the private sector also and I’d say I’ve average about 5 or 6 a year (I don’t get paid either for sick days). I looked on-line and apparently the public service sick days average approx 11 to 12.

Brian I worked in the public sector for thirty years and I had three sick days. I also worked in the private sector for ten years and I was off sick for almost a year after a traffic accident.

Patrick, this is not a competition. If anyone has the relevant figures for private v public sick days it would be appreciated.

Patrick, was that the Cromwellian public sector? Just wondering, based on the flag.

sid Charles Dickens wrote novels about stuff like that do we really want to go back there ?

Well spotted Censored. Yes, I was in the New Model Civil Service.

Er where do they get the “other” proportion?

Natural resources !!!

Frank could you cite your sources on this please? I have got to know quite a few of the staff in my local hospital and many have bemoaned about how expensive it is to do exactly what you just said, I know for example if a nurse wants to do his/her masters they do it at their own expense, which is considerable, and must work around it. Some years ago an OECD report noted a lack of Advanced Nurse Practitioners and Specialists in Ireland and there was speculation that the cost of training for these and little reward at the end as opposed to the European model of assistance and encouragement ment staff were almost discouraged from advancing themselves here. I feel I’m begining to sound like an apologist for the Public Service but this sounds like either an exaggeration or something only available to those in the higher echelon’s and not the average Public Sector employee.

Frank are u talking about years off with pay bcos if so I have never heard if it. In the civil service people study part-time, evenings and weekends on pre-approved relevant courses and have to pay for course fees upfront. They get one week paid study leave per year. If they pass the exams at year end they usually get a refund of half the fee.

Aw cop yourself on. Go to an A&E Department and take a look around, I hear they never close but maybe you know better. When you pick up that phone call 999 or 112 and they’ll ask you what service you require. They don’t close either. Not a bad service is it?

Can I call 999 to get them to deal with a routine administrative matter? Good idea! At least somebody might answer the phone then.

@censored Seriously? You want an emergency service to deal with an administrative matter? Ok, we all have to deal with the administration nightmare, I often wonder why they don’t use e-mail but lets not open that can of worms, they’re not much different than dealing with any major organisation though, dealing with an insurance company or bank is just as bad and they keep similar office hours. Worse if it’s a bank.
If we expect the administration side of things to open 24/7 then that’s going to require at least 3 times the staff to work in shifts… and off we go again.

Rusty, I was referring to the pencil pushers.
They don’t use email as it might lead to accountability.

Aw come on now you’re beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist? They don’t use e-mail because, despite umpteen reports going back many years calling for it and the change from paper record keeping to an electronic format, there was never any investment in this area. Our government preferred to spend our money on electronic voting machines. When we had the money we wasted it. It’s that simple. The “pencil pushers” you’re referring to would like nothing better than see the use of e-mail and a reliance on electronic record keeping, my local hospital only stopped using the traditional film X-Rays this year and moved over to a safer, quicker electronic format. The staff love it. I’m sure there’s still hospitals where people have to wait for X-rays to be developed, then run back and forth with them, then they have to be physically stored and retrived. It’s the same thing for all physical paper records, it would make everyone’s life easier if these could be done electronically. Even the “pencil pushers”.

dissapointed I didnt get a call from you I was stilltaking calls at 5pm

dissapointed I didnt get a call from you I was stilltaking calls at 5pm.

Good man rusty balls – use 999 emergnecy services as an example. Don’t be so disingenuous. Everybody knows the public sector don’t answer phones past 3 on a Friday and answer it when they feel like it during the week. It’s not an absolute rule but it’s a good guide.

Rusty Balls, is the rust appearing in other areas too? You do realize I was not seriously suggesting calling 999 for a routine admin matter right? I’m not expecting 24 hour service, but it would be nice if somebody would answer the phone say betwee 9 and 5 … or email is good.

@censored Yeah I got it, we’ve all been there, Christ I’ve wished they’d use e-mail. I spoke to a paramedic once who told me he got an urgent call late one night, when he rushed to the house he was met at the front door by a foreign gentleman in his dressing gown who presented him with a doctors perscription demanding he go to a pharmacy and fill it, he knew his rights. He couldn’t believe it, it had been a busy night for him and his partner and when he tried to explain to the gentleman that 999 is for emergency calls only he was told it was an emergency, he needed his perscription for his antiobiotics or whatever filled, he forgot to do it himself and they had to do it, he knew his rights. The rest I can’t print here, but suffice to say he had to be held back. It does happen, ask any paramedic.

Rusty Balls – your comment regarding no investment as a reason for not using email is complete rubbish. It costs near nothing to use it, and saves a fortune with massive increase in efficiency – in a way its the complete opposite of public service waste. I’ve worked in both public and private medical areas and have seen the difference. There are IT departments in all public service departments but what the hell are they doing? Some record systems are still using MS-DOS based programs. Could it be that administration staff feel threatened by IT? There would be a whole lot less admin paperwork to do…

@Oliver Ok, so you think I’m wrong, but can you back it up? In 2008 an OECD recommended exactly what you and I would like.
“A rolling programme of e-government projects, a combination of central, enabling projects and citizen-centred initiatives in the Health, Local Government, Education and other sectors, should be developed with regular reports to Government on its implementation.
The OECD recognised that in the future, the Public Service may need to develop additional forms of access for an increasingly engaged and active citizenry. Online services are only one part of an overall multi-channel strategy to deliver services through the most convenient and appropriate channel. For example, straightforward services can be delivered efficiently over the internet, freeing resources for more complicated problem-solving and for improving access through other channels where needed, such as over the counter, over the telephone, the mobile phone, or through intermediaries.”

To date none of this has been even begun due to lack of funding, it should have been done when we had the money, or at least the infrastructure put in place.
Another OECD report from this year discusses the countries that are or plan to use Electronic Health Records, Ireland is not mentioned in either of these categories.

http://www.oecd.org/health/healthpoliciesanddata/50333225.pdf

I have a background in IT so believe me when I say I share your frustration. I can’t verify how true this is but I’ve no reason to doubt it, I was told by someone in my local hospital that their policies were changed to speed things up. Instead of picking up a phone and calling the maintenance department for a problem they now have to e-mail a centeral office in Dublin, who process the issue, then e-mail the maintenance department, who print out a nice docket. Enforced government efficiency, Irish style.

Rusty – How much does it cost to set up email? I can get an account going in 3 minutes. The HSE have domain names and servers – they just don’t use it. We have very limited use when liasing with HSE services, we have to post most communications. We have been posting to private professionals for years.

As a real world example, when I do a private medical, I have the report typed up and emailed sometimes before the patient even leaves the building. In the public sector system (which I have also done) the medic will dictate the letter onto a tape, then the secretarial pool type it up in the next few days, then it has to be proof read by the doctor (these can pile up), then it gets sent in the post. It takes from the fastest 1 week to 6 months. Incredible.

The excuse of no investment or not enough “resources” for email (the new word for money) just does not stand up.

The OECD lists all of the really obvious things that for whatever numerous reasons have not occured in our health service.

I worked as a temp admin for a few months in Hse west over 10 years ago..from my experience there,I can only imagine how bad
those 3 people who were sacked were in their job! I’m sure there should be a few noughts at the end of that 3!!!!