Well said!

There’ll be many more excellent minds following you soon for the same very reasons. Well said.

They could try advertising in Southern European countries (where wages are significantly lower than their Irish counterparts). From what I’ve read, consultants in Greece earn approximately ~60% less than Ireland. Correct me if I’m wrong, but perhaps we should be advertising in those countries…

@Regonald If we leave out the moral and ethical issues involved in encouraging the current Brain Drain from another financially devastated country in the Eurozone we are left with a simple problem of competitiveness. Any English speaking doctor with the appropriate qualifications is entitled to apply for a job anywhere in Europe. As it currently stands the salary (see publicjobs.ie) for a new consultant is Eu 110000 pa, In the UK it is £72000 but rises to £94000 and there is the possibility to supplement this with private practice or waiting list initiatives. Despite this the Greek exodus has targeted Germany (http://www.cnbc.com/id/47228987/Greece039s_Young_and_Bright_Flee_Crisis_and_Corruption) where the salary is lower than the UK and Ireland. I could speculate but it would not be fair to speculate as the facts speak for themselves. The Greeks don’t seem to want to come to Ireland and as the original article shows neither does any body else including the Irish. The question you and other people on your side of the debate need to answer is why is it we can’t attract the best to Ireland not who can we get to do the job as after all (and I am assuming you live in Ireland) which type of doctor do you want treating you – one who had to compete to get their job or one who couldn’t get a job anywhere else.

As are those that they plan to hire from India and Pakistan… Very well said.

What about all the ‘plenty of doctors elsewhere will take these jobs’ if our greedy lot won’t?
What about all these English consultants earning less who would be only delighted to take these jobs?
Bollix – the race to demonise vastly dedicated and hard working specialists in this country has had it’s inevitable result – they are staying avoid.
The race to the bottom in left wing, socialist attitudes means you’ll end up with the health system you paid for.

Badly managed resources….

Dead on voice. Goes to show when you cut skilled pay and have bad conditions then the best want do it. Same in any public job

The vast bulk of health expenditure is on Wages. If pay reforms were introduced, perhaps it could enable the government to invest in more “resources” and “better conditions”

just wondering.

Yeah Reg, offer less money for positions that can’t be filled. That will work.
Now I’m satisfied your sole purpose here is to troll. (And give your own comments green thumbs)

Privatizing the recruitment may perhabe a better option. If others want to leave, let them. No one is stopping you…

Reg,

There’s comes a time when no amount of money can compensate for bad working conditions and inefficient management. I believe that it what the original comment was about. He was in a situation where he was not allowed the resources to do his job properly and then criticised for underperformance. Why should he put up with it? I wouldn’t.

We pay a lot for Irish health system, but it’s a disaster zone for both patients and staff. Would the staff accept lower pay in return for better working conditions?

Perhaps the HSE should privatize their recruitment ?

@aisloy Ïrish trained, English first language speaking doctor”? are you referring to Caucasian? like it or not half your health services is run by non-Caucasian. Did the Americans, Australian, and the British said the same about irish doctors who go to train over there? Doctors and Nurses are high skilled workers that many countries will compete to bring or retain. Those who are non-Caucasian are mainly here because their countries failed to compete with Ireland, and as soon as Ireland fail to compete they will move to another more rewarding market(this include Caucasian Irish Nurses and Doctors too). The cost of those who trained in Ireland is around 75,000 Euro per year. It is cheaper to go and bring high skilled workers from other countries rather than training them at home. if you want to be treated by Irish trained English first language doctors and nurses then you should prepare to pay very high Taxes!

Same in GP practice. In ten years time you won’t find an Irish GP locally

Non English first language speaking health care professionals is an issue, like it or not. Caucasian is not relevant here, though I know you are trying to make it so. There are many non English speaking Caucasian Drs in the health system who are a major safety issue, mostly in peripheral hospitals. As someone who is married to a non Caucasian, English speaking dr, race is not an issue. however language barriers are difficult enough when dealing with strong accented Irish elderly people who’ve had a stroke for example. Throw in cultural and language barriers to the mix and you’d be very concerned that that patient wasn’t being best cared for, not out of malice, but miscommunication. We have many great drs and nurses from abroad but there are issues with some when it comes to language and to play the racism card is naive and not in anyone’s interests.

Perhaps you should leave so then? No one is stopping you…

Couldn’t agree with you more Seamus. Working in our public hospitals is a health hazard. Cannot blame dedicated professionals seeking work in a safer environment, for them and their patients. Warning: do not get sick!

Mary, I’m a nurse and currently in the UK doing a post graduate in general nursing. Health workers are paid pittance over here, and it’s pretty evident in the attitudes of staff. A report in the papers over here today states that two thirds of nurses and doctors in the NHS would not want their family members treated on the wards they work on. I can guarantee you a similar, if not higher number would share this view in the Republic!

But the UK is in a different currency.

And your point is what Mark? Apart from the obvious difference. I suggest u go and look up the pay scales for nurses in both Ireland and the UK. Then find a currency converter and do the maths.

Seamus,

The cost of living in UK is generally considered higher than Ireland. UK wages are often less by comparison to purchasing power. Also, they appear to work a lot more hours than here in Ireland.

Regonald… I have no interest in debating this with you. From what I see you have something to say about everything. And mostly arguing for the sake of it. If I said black you’d say white.

What “better paid positions” exist abroad? From what I’ve researched, we seemingly pay very good wages here.

Bullshit reginold. All doctors could clean up abroad. A miracle any are left

About 350 I think

I would argue that Ireland, training and doctors are all loosely associated words but if your question is about medical schools then there are approximately 600 newly qualified EU junior doctors per year graduating from Irish universities and probably a few hundred non-EU students also but I’m not sure how many non-EU graduates we have.

Good luck young doctor.
Let’s talk money.
I’m a 52 year old Irish trained doctor and left in 1994 after higher professional training in anaesthesia to work in France.
Was offered a post in 1997 but unable to take up position for 2 reasons: custody of children and Dublin property market. Was to be paid ~ 62k punts / year but property inaccessible at the time.
Since the death of my ex partner I’ve hoped to return finally to Ireland but I’ve watched the consultant remuneration diminish from > 200k€ to 176k€ and now posts are advertised with a remuneration if 102k€.
The HSE expects fully trained doctors to work under the same conditions as their peers who earn twice as much for the same service, ” private practice” notwithstanding?
Shame on the agreement signed last year condemning the unsuspecting doctors in training to a miserable future

Only 102k? Sure I wouldn’t even get out of bed for that kind of money.

Nobody gets out of bed every 4th night for 35 years for that money.
It truly is Mickey Mouse for the training, expertise, sacrifice and responsibility.

Over 800 with graduate entry now,

Okay, I get it now. It’s a hotel on/off light. Still confusing though.

The NO is switched off.
Geddit?

Yeah, I do “geddit” hence my second post. Took a few minutes though…

Shoulda gone to specsavers.

Fair enough. However I don’t think it’s right to call the doctors that want to stay working as specialists in hospitals devoted to doing on calls, carrying out research, doing PHDs, working >60 hrs a week, greedy. People make choices in life if you choose to work nicer hrs with less pressures then yes that should be reflected in pay. However the hospital doctors I see are far from greedy they are hard working and committed, and when you calculate the pay per hrs worked in a year I think you’ll find they are paid significantly less than teachers.

Medicine is an exception due to the minimum standards that must be maintained, as to not maintain them would result in hospital closures. (This is at risk of happening anyway when you take into account the EWTD).

Flopflipu- There continues to be a rehab team recruitment freeze though- the numbers of speech, occupational and physio therapists are dwindling, as the demand is increasing. One may get the adequate medical intervention for say, a stroke, but the input thereafter to improve communication, independence, mobility, the ability to eat and drink, or the ability to simply dress or cook for oneself, is minimal. To improve health care in Ireland we need to look beyond solely the frontline medical staff- for whom I have such respect and who are doing an excellent job in consideration of the resources and environments they are often subjected to- and consider patient care holistically. There is an almost disregard for patient care beyond medical intervention. Questions about quality of life are raised as a result. Apologies for this digression!

not a digression at all. vitally important area. money & resources are funneled towards “glamor” areas – such as pci/ cva thrombolysis – but then the really important work of bringing survivors back into society is conveniently ignored. what is the point of creating another nursing home cripple? the work of physios/ots/salts (&god knows i’m a former unbeliever) can be phenomenal in restoring quality of life for such people & their families.

@Arbitrasure,What rubbish your talking all our young doctors are emigrating because Reilly treats them like rubbish.

that’s not true.

Yes its true my son trained as a doctor and now he is in the USA.

Well with one example like that, you must be right.
Hope he is pulling in the big bucks in the US and not working too hard.

There are approximately 600 eu graduates from Irish medical schools each year. There are 4600 NCHD posts in the country. It takes up to 15 years to train for consultancy. So in reality if we produce an enormous excess of doctors each year from medical schools and then effectively chase them to other English speaking countries. The mind boggles.

We are a State subsidised training school for the rest of the world. Once qualified, the doctors follow the money overseas.

Arb, you should hold a conversation with an NCHD sometime… Routine 36hr shifts as part of 70-100hr weeks for which they have to argue to get paid for, no training (refer to Junior Doc’s comment – 15 years to train to consultancy level – this should be 5 (in most other countries it is, or closer to 5 than 15 at any rate), lack if supports (professional, personal)………..

If their managers are incapable of organising the rosters properly do they not have a Union?
It would be quite simple to announce that over the next 12 months doctors will conform to legal EWTD limits and the HSE must prepare for that.

It sounds like the HSE have been letting this disorganisation fester for a long time.

Au contrarie Arb!
To implement the EWTD requires an additional 2,500 NCHD positions (in addiction to all those advertised – not just those filled), to all be filled. There are currently around 4,600 NCHD’s. that will tell you how broken the system is. It doesn’t require a manager to fix it, it requires governmental intervention – which they have just done by way of the CP “deal”, which can only make the situation worse.
Ireland’s view of greedy doctors is about to bite itself in the rear. (About to – we’re not even at the bottom yet!). And rightly so. Maybe then we night take a spot of action.

In relation to state sponsoring: graduate entry students pay approximately €50000-60000 for their degree with no grant or financial assistance for those 4 years. This cover 50% of the cost of their training. Every nonEU student pays 150% cost subsidising one EU student completely. The minimum number of non-eu students is 33% meaning the government pays nothing toward one half of the EU graduates in this class and only 50% towards the cost of the other half of the class. So they pay for about 1 in 4 graduates and are probably retaining this number in the system. Your taxes are well invested unless you do not believe anyone should have a funded education and the whole nation goes back to paying for everything they received including their primary school education.

It’s not an all-or-nothing choice. Third level should be fee based. The money would be better spent on improving access to basic education for those who are currently being failed by the system.

If you are a practicing doctor why are you not registered as one with the Irish medical council, this doesn’t add up.

Simple solution for you is to charge your patients less so you equal your pay to that of a school teacher. Should resolve your anxiety over pay disparity. Solution is in your hands. Value yourself and your work accordingly.

I do charge my patients less, much much less and I value my work but don’t thik that because I am a doctor I should be in a separate class in society.I dont charge for a f..ig prescription for exemple!, and even barter if patient is stuck. Nobody is talkig about the LOVE for your job. Everybody is talking about money ad you all make me sick so I’m going back to my happy practice and live my dreams.

The issue these days is about not about pay. its about conditions and demoralised staff. Yes doctors are saying they are worth more than they are valued by the system. This doesn’t come exclusively from financial remuneration but from the autonomy to make decisions, the support to upskill as part of their contract, seeing a patient get the standard of care they know how to deliver and more importantly being allowed the opportunity to be human, something those outside of hospital medicine have easier access to. Everybody who is willing to work hard deserves to have a basic standard of living. Statistically this is measured not financially but by other parameters e.g. how many times you eat red meat in a week. Why don’t we make this argument and measurement more basic. How many times a week do you get to sleep in your own bed? If you want to measure standard of living its based on the opportunities your finances allow but what if your working conditions prohibit those opportunities to begin with. You can only treat people like slaves for so long.

How do you pay your medical insurance, medical council, cpd, icgp, staff cost, rent, rates, electric, etc. your happy place is not in my world.

Shadow workers in the two jobs for a week and come back and report to us what you think then.

For many many reasons Mary. We could talk about holidays, length of training, higher degrees, hours worked per week, responsibility, risk of litigation, lack of permanency until late 30′s, having to move city on a yearly basis for training, the amount of effort required to get the degree in the first place, the work outside of paid work to further your career, having to move abroad to do fellowships. Take your pick. Sure why don’t we all leave school at 14 and get paid the same, that will make for a great society.

Sorry Sophie, called you Mary.

Well, hours worked, responsibility, length of training. Ongoing professional development. Accountability…….. Could go on forever. Simple fact is to train a teacher you need a primary degree, a h dip and someone who needs June, July and August off. Midterms and Christmas holidays. To train as a doctor you need 6 years in college and a minimum of 4 years post graduate training. Think the question you should be asking yourself is why do we pay teachers so much.

I can’t agree with Sinn Fein policy on this issue, that every citizen should have the same income and the wealthy should be savagely taxed on their income and assets in order to restore equality among the people.
It just doesn’t work.

Good one Sophie, tell us another

Why would anyone bother to study to be a doctor if they can get paid the same as a teacher?

Starting salary of newly qualified teacher is €30904. I cant comment on the amount of time spent delivering frontline services by a teacher as i would be speculating. Starting salary of junior doctor is €30254. Counting purely hours spent on site on service provision and excluding all obligatory extracurricular stuff like exams, preparation of teaching lectures for peer education etc doctors work 1800 hours for this with a further obligatory 1200 hours overtime in a given year.

Doctors don’t get school holidays either

um, ok. why would i get paid more? ignoring the fact that i don’t get paid for “unrostered” overtime. ignoring the fact that i spent 6 years in college. ignoring the fact that i could have pursued far more lucrative careers. ignoring the fact that i have more letters after my name than in it due to research/ post grad exam after exam over the past 11 years. what did i do last night in work after arriving at 7.10 am & completing a full days work? junkie with femoral artery bleeding arrived about 19.00. surgical sho compressing hiv/ hep c spurt. no peripheral access & non-compliant patient meant we went asleep with a 22g cannula & a hb of 6. 10 mins later a post-op pelvic bleed needed to come back to ot. at same time called to ed due to impending airway obstruction needing urgent tracheostomy. no icu/hdu beds. needed to float between all these people &constantly re-assess to prioritise. long discussion with bed management etc re beds. ended up getting on call theatre nurses back in to do two cases simultaneously. consultants (surgical/ anaesthesia in till 3 am despite working at 8 am). finished at 4.30. cardiac arrest at 8am – junior excellent but inexperienced. med reg an endocrine research reg. in the end ran arrest. rosc afet 12 mins… no icu bed. 3 in pacu. had to bring patient to ed resusc. updated family.
so enjoy the pap smears, stis and morning after pill but don’t equate what you do and what a cardiac surgeon in crumlin does.