Plus, Dáil Reform Fine Gael style – statements on the Promissory Note announcement aren’t allowed, because time needs to be made available to discuss… Sheep Worrying in the Cooley Mountains!!!

If ye are not happy with this fiasco – be heard. Come out in your droves this Saturday. Bring the whole family. Gathering at 1pm at Garden of Remembrance. We shall then march onto Convention Centre where FG are holding their Árd Fheis.

We need to show these bully boys that we are not afraid. We are together on this. That we want our sovereignty back and that if they’re not capable that we’ll do it ourselves. It’s time to send a strong message. They should fear us – not us them.

They are incapable of making the right decision for Ireland and our future. They have no courage. Time we showed them we have!

The promissary note was soveriegn debt i.e. owed by a sovereign State.

Yippee, all our troubles are over, we have a “sovereign” debt now instead of a “promissory note” debt – crack open the champagne, to celebrate our finance minister – he is a genius

Can we get these FG traitors out of Government before they destroy this Nation of ours?
Kenny the Traitor proudly states several “game-changing” agreements have been signed with the Chinese…he’s agreed to sell this Country for a price and the muppet doesn’t even understand the significance of his actions.
FF raped this Country from the bottom up, but these FG’s are raping the Country from the top down.

JOHN Who do you suggest we elect to run the country

Maura, that’s a good question. Are there any honest Politicians left in this Country to elect anymore (or does it matter?). I feel Kenny & Co have put up a “for sale” sign on this Country…just wait and see what the Chinese will do to the Thousands’ of Acres of Coillte woodland when they get their hands on that?

I couldn’t agree more with you John. I’v said this before but here it goes again, I really feel FG could do more damage to this country in the short term than FF ever did! And that’s saying something because I bloody despise FF.

And the Chinese ciolte thing, am I right in saying that Enda has agreed to sell all the wood on the land and not the land! Could you tell me if I’m correct on that, maybe you’d know?

Stick around, Ben Gunn. You sound like you have a f___ing notion what you’re talking about.

Maura. I’ll tell you who I think we shouldn’t vote for first. I wouldn’t vote for anyone from what Melia calls the FiannaGaeLabour Party. They have well and truly proved to be one and the same.

I really think it’s time we voted for people who wouldn’t dare call us Ireland Inc. I’ll be voting ULA and Sinn Féin at the next election. I’m calling it GE13. That is if they last that long.

Ryan, it’s ‘only’ the raw material for sale, not the Land. But sure we can ‘grow’ wind turbines in their place!

Nice one, extend the repayments over twenty five years instead of five so Irish people not yet born will be paying for Seanie Fitzpatrick’s shenanigans, then try to convince us you’ve struck a big deal in an effort to hoodwink us into voting yes on another treaty! Do these numpties think we’re fools, do they think we came down in the last shower? They ought to remember the majority of the Irish population were intelligent enough not to vote Fine Gael in the last election.

Thanks there John. I’m glad it’s ‘only’ the raw materials however it really wouldn’t surprise me if they sold the land! …… And got the money from the sale thirty years later !! Ha cheers

@ Reada , I’m with you all the way. I despise FF, I have never given 1 single vote to either FG or Lab in my life and am very proud to say that. When this gang of gobshites were elected I could have sworn I heard the death bell toll for Ireland. Last March I gave this government 18 months in office and I’m keeping everything crossed that I will be proven right.

Hi Anne. According to the thumb votes on this lefty website there’s still a lot who still enjoy a good kicking from the FiannaGaeLabour Party. I hope to god they have their fill before the next GE and take a walk on the wild side! God love them. ;)

Write down my backside. Write OFF is what we want. Why should these promissory notes be turned into sovereign debt? Fake unbacked by gold money was flooded into this country and loaned out by Anglo et al.

These were merely figures on computer screens. Where did all the money go? It is one big con. Don’t be fooled by fools.

You should never speak ill of the dead, irregardless of your opinions.

dead right fagans

Looks good for them as people wanted done about the payment and they think it will influence peoples vote come referendum day, funny logic really

Looks good for them as people wanted something done about the payment and they think it will influence peoples vote come referendum day, funny logic really

No we would not have defaulted on Saturday. We would have borrowed the money from the troika and then destroyed it. See this page for a good explanation: http://www.stephendonnelly.ie/featured/how-the-promissory-notes-work/

We have replaced the payment to IBRC with a bond which will mature at a later date.

Mr Noonan , why is it that you and the government you represent are so heartless and cold ? What do you all hope to gain ? Is money so important to you that you have to pull the heart out of our nation and destroy the confidence of the people ? I just bdo not understand the thinking behind your policies. Shame on all of you.

Squeaky Noonan stated very clearly on the 6one news that the money we should have paid on Saturday WILL NOT be spent on job stimulous or creation!

Well inflation should have taken a good chunk out of it by 2025.

The interest rate will prevent that, especially since the Irish economy is in for more deflationary pain.

Rant rant rant. Do you have a notion what you’re talking about at all? Explain this deal to me. Why is it worse than handing over 3.06bn euro in two days time?

BECAUSE – Impartial Eclipse they have turned the Bank debt into Sovereign debt and by doing so Squeaky Noonan has made sure that there will be NO writedown or writeoff of the now non existing banking debt.

Impartial Eclipse
Yes I know what I am talking about , and no I chose not to explain it to YOU . This debt is noit our debt .

Way to go, Suzer.

Ann, the only problem with your analysis is that the Anglo debt is already included in our debt to GDP ratio. So how does it suddenly now as a result of this deal become sovereign debt? And why does it exclude a future “writedown or writeoff of the now non existing banking debt”? Indeed, what do the last 4 words in the previous sentence mean?

Folks, sorry for asking awkward questions. Don’t take it to mean that I think that Anglo debt is our debt or that I think this deal is the bee’s knees. But I do think that we need to have an informed debate – not just people putting up angry posts and making random statements to get loads of thumbs up clicks.

Impartial Eclipse
you are welcome :)

To be fair, the loss includes a 1.6bn impairment provision. If you don’t count that, because after all it is not real money, he is in profit operationally, by a substantial amount. Behind that headline figure there is an actual story…

Nah, I’d rather be lazy and generalise. I fit in better. Thanks for the input though. We’ll take your comments on board and present them to the committee and see I we can get movement on a positive result.

it’s not your debt, how is it a good deal?

“Give me control of a nation’s money and I care not who makes it’s laws” — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild

None of this is a good deal

aldo,
way over the heads of the narrowminded,
no, not just narrowminded but also small minded Fine Gaels
air heads.

Sadly, too, most either don’t understand it
or write it off a conspiracy nonsense.

oh well……….

Paul, that’s a crucial error. It wasn’t our debt, but it is now. The promissory notes were issued by the minister to Anglo, and so were essentially debt instruments, contrived and unusual as they are. Unfortunately we need to move beyond the argument that this debt is not ours. It well and truly is now, and the question is how best to manage it, not how to avoid it.

Ultan,
Try this for an analogy to your comment. My credit card was robbed, maxed to the limit with interest, I don’t have to pay just tell the bank to toss off that it’s not my debt, but no I then go and get a bigger platinum card with a bigger limit so I can pay off the first card!

Now I’m no economist but debt in any form is bad. Debt that does not belong to us is worse and delaying this debt putting on the long finger is just national suicide NO its Fu€ing unbelievable…..

You left out the interest payments and the mature dates in 10 years ensuring the high taxes will remain long term no matter how the economy performs
I’ll break it to my 10 year old gently

JOE WHAT IDIOTS GIVE A THUMB DOWN FOR A COMMENT LIKE THAT , IS SEANIE COWEN AND BERTIE OUT THERE

Alas Dermot it just goes to show the mentality of the people that are out there.

Again I ask, why is so much time and effort being focused on taking money from people yet no time or effort has been spent on bringing the clowns that caused this to justice.

Noonie is as bad if not worse as his predecessor – FG/LAB are out to protect their rich friends and f*ck the rest of us!

No just FG’ers

FG’ers are storming the chat to try and make a miserable deal look slightly less miserable.

Too right Gavin, seen it many times before, it’s like a co-ordinated attack on the fourm and the overwhelming opinions that go against this government. They bombard with drivel and spin and if it dosnt givyhete way, they resort to bullying and put downs. I won’t name names, you can see who they are for yourself, but isn’t it quite fitting how these people and their behaviour back the current government in all it’s misery, now that’s the underlying meaning!! I’m glad you spotted the tactic too.

The simple reason these problems aren’t getting sorted – the bigger they are the harder they fall; some of the people making the decisions have a long way to fall.

Both equally responsible FF caused it, FG just carrying on where FF left off. FG have had no balls in dealing with ECB/IMF. They’re simply lapdogs, yes men, lackys.

There’s no difference between the two. Our Democratic system is an illusion were they offer you a fake choice to keep you happy. They being the Banker Elite. They have us in cheque mate unless we stand up and change the rules.

Kevin you are the voice if sanity !! Practically the only one on here!!!

I have more pressing things on my mind then spellings. Its amazing you can see my mistakes but you fail to see the huge mistakes that the gov are making! My use of your instead of you’re is hurting nobody were the gov mistakes are hurting millions now and every future generation! Get your priorities right (no spelling corrections please)

Drivel pure drivel……
@kevin, that’s right hide it away, kick the can as far down the road as you can sure it will be your grand kids that have to pay it. Elephant in the room anyone?! Why pay other people’s debts now when you can pay other people’s debt later with interest!
I don’t believe the lackies on here.

Very true…

When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow.
Anais Nin

Go have a party Declan with the rest of the fools who see this as a good move.

@dermot – um, no-one on this sub-thread has said this debt swap is good, there’s just been a ( valid, in my opinion ) criticism of the repetition of the same old opinions on these posts..

Declan and john…here’s a little tip for ya for free…don’t read the bottom half of the internet. Especially if you find it ‘boring’. You’re welcome!

Declan you’re Right!!!!
There is a boring repetition of the same old ‘not my debt’ ‘,don’t panic don’t pay’, ‘Noonan is a gobshite’, ‘Kenny is a traitor’ malarkey coming across on these comment threads. Know why? Nothing’s changed. It’s the same old, same old. After a year of lies and broken promises the position is worse, the poor are poorer and the rich are richer. This always happened with FG in power. If true to nothing else they are true to tradition.
The ‘tax on children’s footwear’ party are are back at the helm!

@ Niamh – this isn’t the Internet, it’s a site on the Internet. The Internet does have a bottom half.

Speaking only for myself, I’m not complaining about the fact that people have opinions and feel free to express them, this is a good thing. What’s annoying me are the posts that, rather than giving the original poster their due, simply rewrite the same point ( barely ) and stick it up as if it was their own idea. 100 posts with 100 different opinions = great. 100 posts with 1 idea = a chunk of ego-stroking and “me too”-ism. If you agree with someone, say so. Don’t steal the thought and present it as your own.

Post over. Let the stone throwing begin.

john,
100 different opinions on whether turning promissory notes
into sovereign debt is a success or rubbish?

100 opinions that are all different!! haha john

You can probably break this issue down to 3 overall opinions
1. good
2. pointless and not good
3. don’t know/don’t care

But, no john, u’ll only be ‘happy’ with 100′s of different opinions.

You have made me ‘happy’ by giving me a laugh,
Thanks :-)

So, 3 possible opinions but 109 posts and counting?

I’m speaking generally about a lot of posts repeating the same content, rather than commenting on what comes before. To give you your credit, adding to what’s there rather then just cutting and pasting is what you’ve done, so respect.

Glad I’ve made you laugh, never enough of that these days :-)

john,
the laughs are few and far between these days alright.

it just seems a bit much from declan cotter to have posted his
“Usual posts i see…. Its getting boring….”

Ive been following the journo for a while now
and for him to say that is yet another laugh (thanks declan)
as practically every post of his is totally pro government
and frankly is not just boring for someone like me who is not
affiliated to any party,
its becoming irritating too.
He’s not alone of course,
theres a contingent of FG members here,
and that is their right,
but to hear them congratulating the gubbermint at every turn
gets too much.
Are they capable of independent thought?
I do wonder…..

Well you know what to do so Decco Cotter – go away and unless you have something valid to say then do most of us a favour and dont say anything.

@john coniffe…the bottom half the internet….that was a joke…

It’s “you’re” as in “you are”. Ironicially, you’re the idiot.

Gobsh1te more like it he just said on news its basically to get the government out of a mess.
So he is saying fcuk you ireland and fcuk the taxpayer

O’Duffy became active in the fascist movement and was given command of the Army Comrades Association (also known as Blueshirts). O’Duffy renamed the movement the National Guard. He also organized marches, flags, salutes (“Hail O’Duffy) based on those in Nazi Germany. This led to fighting in the streets between the National Guard and left-wing groups. In August 1933 the government banned the National Guard from marching to Leinster Lawn.

The following month O’Duffy helped establish the Fine Gael Party. O’Duffy became president of the party but he caused considerable controversy when he described the Irish Republican Army as a communist organization.

Thank God for some sanity on here.

Uuughh….. I simply can’t understand your logic.

This is abysmal news! Where’s my noose..

South Dublin & David, Firstly calling people insane for wanting what is legal and just is moronic. You’ll have to forgive me and the Irish public for being sceptical. The usual arrogant posts from people on here claiming people are insane and negative are pathetic. I voted for Fine Gael as I was promised debt would be written down to realistic levels, not sovereign debt, banking debt that we have to pay. I am a capitalist and believe in a free market. I believe businesses etc should be allowed to fail. On the other hand there are many left leaning people who are very angry because of what has gone on. If you some how think that it’s a great result to take the worst aspects of socialism and capitalism and muddle them together to create an Ireland where we have debt WE DO NOT OWE AND WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PAY, it’s your sanity would want to be checked!

but we don’t own that debt, Do you not understand it is bond holders private debt and he has negotiated it and made it public real debt. Are you naieve.

It is not possible to pay back this debt, no one believes it is. I’d be fairly confident in saying that Enda and Noonan know this as well.

The only question is what kind of write down and how will we restructure mortgage debt. Any thing else is just delaying the inevitable and postponing growth.

I disagree with you ‘South’; Legislation could have been drawn up to pass Anglo to the remaining bondholders thus making them the shareholders – the bank is automatically bankrupt and no soverign default, also, that would allow capitalism to do what its supposed to do. The markets wouldnt so much as sniff at that,infact our outlook as an investment would have been greatly increased, they dont have feelings or morals, they look at you for investment and your capability to make a return. Today we have entered economic fairytale land, by making the debt into a bond we have officially declared it as soverign debt. Now, this new bond debt, which at this stage everybody(except the Irish government and the EU bureaucrats) is of a consenus that it is totally unsustainable, has sealed the Irish Nations Soverign default. Up until today we had a chance to write off that debt by way of a legally fair manner, instead, our destiny is sealed and the markets wont so much as give us the finger. It will be dressed up or dressed down and renamed and re-worded but, at the end of the day, it will be the Irish Soverign default. Today that has become fact, its not buying us time to manouvere, we have just locked ourselves into a really tiny room with one way out; Soverign default.

Greece got E100 billion writen off it debt and the stock market actually went up!

Iceland is doing very well with their write off

These are not our debts. The gambling debts of Seanie Fitzpatrick have now become sovereign debt

We would be back in the markets the minute these debts were written off, as irealnd’s debts would then be down to a more manageable level

A good point well made! A rare dose of reality amid the “why can’t we just not pay” brigade.

That’s exactly the point I’ve been trying to make.

Mike not a good argument. I am in the no camp & feel that default is a real option but most definately this is good news & I welcome it cautiously. However Im one of the people that believe in compromise & I am not naive enough to believe that the no camp & the yes camp have all the answers that lies somewhere in the middle. However politicians a very dangerous they are naive & slow at making important decisions. Politics never moved history people do & while I believe in democracy I believe our leaders do not have a grasp on this situation & they are believeing in 2 leaders that both are due for elections in their own countries. Now you know what politicians do for elections & both of them look.like loosing. So they must be seen to take the hard line on the poorer states. Now you can play along with that but I wont, but we agree this is good news.

@Mike. How exactly is it that the sky will fall down if Ireland defaults on the promissory notes.
http://www.stephendonnelly.ie/category/policy/finance/promissory-notes/

So Mike if whats said on here doesn’t comply with your opinion then its not intelligent. MY thoughts and opinions are MINE and not a verbal regurgitation of what is written in british rags. And Icelands not doing too badly!!

We would be in better shape if they wrote it off and encouraged us to continue with balancing the current expenditure budget

How do you define “realism”? We’ve been pretty patient so far. At some point we need to recognize the current approach isn’t working either for Ireland or for the rest of Europe, and try something different.

Your right John – I hate spin! How did we ever get into this shagging mess?

The people we should have been able to trust , lied to us . They are led by greed and have NO Loyalty to their voters

Jumbo… HHC and fuel cuts I think that is for Saturday Garden of remembrance .ironic that Garden of REMEMBRANCE for a protest to start there on Saturday that the G of R is a place to remember all of who fought fir our Freedom
Today we have just signed away that very thing that we lost great Irish men and women for Thank you Noonan Kenny Hogan Etc Etc etc you are ALL TRAITORS and should be arrested and charged with TREASON

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/total_spending_chart

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100064000/there-is-a-way-out-for-ireland-and-britain-should-stand-ready-offer-it/

Fantastic post, well informed and logical. I tried to make the same points…

Yes it is good news – that’s a fact. End of.

Desmond, stop paying your mortgage now, pay the interest for 13 years and then start paying your mortgage again. tell me how you are better off?

Desmond the whole point was to get it written off not deferred
He didn’t do it
The scanners on Greece did
Tell me how strong our finance minister is
He ain’t

In 13 years, the capital that you owe will have been eroded by inflation and economic growth. In the interim 13 years, you have freed up cash that can be used for economic stimulus.

In thirteen years, the €47bn will have disappeared through inflation, don’t think so and in the mean time we pay interest on the debt for thirteen years. The ECB and IMF have been talking more positively about doing something meaningful for Ireland. If the EU allowed us to write off this debt, they could print it, the euro would drop a couple of cents for about a week and we could start to work on our dieing economy.

@ Desmond, we are experiencing the daft situation that the BRIC’s nations are complaining about being swamped with cheap Dollars & Euro’s, while the idiots running this country are afraid to default on seignoraged funds (make believe money) that was used to pay debts that the state wasn’t liable for.
I didn’t realise that anyone believed the childlike propaganda this government is putting out. It’s long overdue that we grew up as a nation and find a backbone somewhere.
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/321231/20120329/brics-summit-declaration-pressurise-europe-united-states.htm

A logical and well informed post… that will never do here where feigned indignation is the order of the day! Mr Noonan has done well today and should be commended for it.

Karl Whelans thoughts: http://karlwhelan.com/blog/?p=247

Constantin Guedgievs thoughts:
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2012/03/2932012-promissory-note-deal-2012.html?m=1

Bet you’ll tell me they’re talking crap Desmond? That’s why they’re lecturers and you’re not, eh?

Dude you really dont have a clue do you, your detailed account is wrong and quite simply naive…but again I suppose if you actually had any insight you would offer it in a less arrogant and aggressive fashion, your method reveals your stupidity.

@Desmond: most of the petty abuse seems to come from those who believe we should continue going down our current path. The one that’s been working so well for the past 5 years.

A lot of other people here think the debt and the deficit is unsustainable and that we need to come up with some other solution. I don’t know what the solution might be, but I do think that shouting people down and insisting that there are no alternatives is probably not going to help.

This may be a good short term deal, but we going to pay a very steep price. Noonan should have pushed for a better deal. That better deal has eluded us for 5 years – this is messing up the entire EU as well as Ireland, but some people still can’t see that.

https://www.facebook.com/DonnellyforWicklow/posts/379465142093507

Ha yeah once they are put out of government and somebody that actually has the balls to ask for the writedown!

No it’s putting bank debt into sovereign debt which the late Brian lenihan said we should never do

Brian Lenihan (along with Biffo) turned into all into Sovergn Debt the minute he gave the blanket guarantee.

So we won’t need another bailout then?

Your deluding yourself. You didn’t get into mess. The bankers put you there and they will keep you there. Its not your debt.

You have your rose tinted glasses on again i see!!!

It is only great news if it means a plan can now be worked on to write off this debt.

and if you believe that you must be on first name basis with the tooth fairy

ECB & Bankers 1 Irish tax payer 0

more like 10 nil Kerry.

Are you for real? Seriously. This is some dark sided rubbish.

Just two points david which are backed up by the ECB statement today.

1 The ECB has made no deal.
2 The ECB has given no deferral

Smoke and mirrors!

Right. So you’d prefer that we handed over 3.06bn euro in two days. Thanks for that.

Given the views you’ve expressed here on Nazi war criminals, I’d be ashamed to consider you Irish. So, you don’t have to stay here, you know.

Yea i would prefer that we hand over the 3bn in two days.

And re my comments on Nazi war criminals: please do try to understand my comments if you in turn are going to refer to them. Otherwise you demonstrate a real lack of coherence.

Anton
I agree with you . This is a disgraceful decision by noonan. I hate the idea that my sons will be paying this debt and as for the people who agree with this decision and welcomes that children will be paying it in years to come well , if you can not be loyal to your children how can you be loyal to your nation? This is a dark night .

Your child if he/she us 10 will pay it back when they start to work

You never say the right thing!