Also for FF to say what they said considering what happened in the past. The way I look at it this could force the hand if the ECB to do us a deal

Spineless & gutless. Embarrassments to the legacy of Connolly & Collins.

I’m as clueless now as to what it means as I was before I read the article.
However, I’ve got this sinking feeling that somehow it means that we’ll end up getting the sh**ty end of the stick. . . . . again.

Looks like they don’t either

At the end of the day they’re a bunch of teachers, farmers, publicans and solicitors trying to spoof us all off that they know what they’re doing when, in fact, they haven’t a notion.
They take their directions from professionals with vested interests; for that alone they should all be purged from public life.

Dont worry about it cause either do they

Phew thought I was the only one
I’m lost too !!

Whatever’s going on it better mean the USC and property tax will be scrapped respecting the demands of a nation. It’s certain some will do well out of this deal, but sure the people of Ireland paying for must start seeing the benefits of the loan we’ve given to the banks.

Don’t know what this means for the country except it sounds like debt deal is set in stone. All that’s changed is method and time frame to repay it. Hope this means though that pensions of the old Anglo big bosses are F@@ked up. What pension Seanie?Sure there’s no bank any more???

We just got screwed, rubberstamped by our wonderful president.

Hey folks – I’ve linked at the bottom of the piece to an article from last night (well a live blog that is now an article) by my colleague Gav Reilly: http://www.thejournal.ie/dail-debate-ibrc-anglo-liquidation-785669-Feb2013/

He followed the story until around 2.30am and if you read through you can see it all as it happened.

Hugh O’Connell is also preparing an explainer on the issue, and there will be regular pieces going up throughout the day.

Hopefully our coverage will help you understand what is going on a bit better.
Aoife

They are getting rid of Anglo but not the debt (promissory notes) they now belong to Nama however we still have to pay back the debt (which is now a state debt) over a longer period which means more interest. Anything else the government said is waffle many of back benchers didn’t read legislation but still voted and FF criticised Gov for late night legislation but then said we believe ye so we’ll vote yes. SF and all Ind voted No (I think)

Basically, we now owe the ECB €28 billion instead of Anglo Irish, but the ECB will never write down that debt, so what was a promise to pay is now an official debt.

Which means all this talk about a debt write-down was lies, because they had this bill prepared while they were talking about a debt write down. Noonan only came up with the story about the bill being prepared in advance as an emergency measure when he was caught out on this fact.

So they are handing over the running of IBRC (Anglo and Irish Nationwide) to KPMG.
The same KPMG that used to give Irish Nationwide a clean bill of health, right up to the point where it went bust.
Strange?

well I hope somebody can put up a succinct story of the whole event suitable for children’s eyes as I’m totally lost at wt hell went on there…
it sounds like another sept 2008 bank guarantee debacle but with more whiff of ( kpmg) knew all along..!

the more I watch ( inside job) the more nervous I become by KPMG and Goldman Sachs and the other big profiteers of the worldwide crash….

you can be rest assured this bill does not have the peoples interests at hand ,this is just another sign our political system is broken .

Michael Martin stood up and told us all that he only had ten minutes to view the bill, therefore he could not vote for it. He didn’t say that his finance spokesman and Sinn Fein’s pierce Doherty were given it hours before and had been studying it all evening, but no the old Irish political habit of not letting the truth get in the way of a chance to score points is alive n well, it appears Michael Martin is no different than what proceeded him.

Also Noonan as got himself in a bit of a contradiction (commonly known as a lie). If he had the bill ages ago as an emergency measure? Then, why did every TD only get it with barely enough time to read it? After all the bill was already written? They weren’t working on it up until the last minute.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that they delayed the bill until the last minute, so as there wouldn’t be enough time to read it, so that they could ram it through the house.

Read the 3 little piggies, that will explain it to you. Germany is the wolf, the bankers are the first little piggy who fearing the wolf, go to the second little piggies house (the developers) to get some of the sticks back to keep the wolf from the door. But it’s no good, the wolf wants more so the first little piggy( the bankers) and the second little piggy(the developers) go to the third little piggy house (the tax payer) and move in, eat all our food, take all our money and screw us any other way they can. The farmer( our government) promises the third little piggy that he will help get rid of the 2 other pigs and the wolf but alas the poor little piggy discovers that the farmer is just as bad. The end.

I think by judging some of the comments on here that Irish people have a self destruct gene that they will not only pass to their children but the legacy debt of 2 blatantly corrupt Governments.The legislation passed last night by FG/FF/L put the 40 billion debt on to the national debt there for making it a debt to the ECB who by law will not nor will ever give a writedown on this debt which will be paid over a longer period bringing even more future generations into the equation .Anyone who endorses this without protest only really cares for themselves individually and lacks both the vision and empathy to truely understand to implications of what went on last night at 2am by laughing heckling half drunk politicians a complete replica of what happened the night of the bank guarentee ..The next time you go to cuddle yere children think me and my irresponsibility to think clearly and react to a direct threat to my children grandchildren will not make up for all the cuddles in the world because in the end they will pay the price for your silence confusion and cowardness and that’s the brutal truth.Judge people and how they show love for each other not by idle words and false emotions .If you care you would be out in the street the weekend if not then you dont so face yourself and find out are you truely just another sheep that eats n breathes and craps and thats about it .

Finally someone talking sense.

Thats the general idea, our government consciously chose to act in this way only to make it difficult for the electorate to comprehend and subsequently object.

One thing is for sure, there will be no debt write down as a consequence of what happened last night. It’s not that our politicians are especially clever, we are just collectively uninformed, and our elected reps rely on that more than anything else.

Europe treat our politicians like domestic pets, and as sure as shit roles downhill our politicians must by default treat their electorate in the same way.

Yes higgins did but he did it so peoetically

Didn’t biffo do the same with the Lisbon treaty

Deals like this get done in the State’s interest ONLY if it is kept absolutely watertight secret. Did you expect a debate in the Herald; but the ECB would promise not to read Irish newspapers while we discussed it amongst ourselves?

Perhaps Noonan deliberately let this story leak because last night the timing was just right to force the ECBs hand. Your move Frankfurt.

Until we KNOW this is a bad outcome for Ireland, let’s not jump to conclusions. We might look back on this in a few months and see a government with balls has gotten a deal that is not a bad one.

Freaking out with anger is your own frustration at not being able to understand what is going on.people.
That is not an adult reaction to not understanding something. Go read up on it. There are plenty of good blogs.

Without doubt there will always be pundits who will claim, no matter what the deal that is done, there was a better one.

Hi Arbitasure,

I’m afraid you should little understanding of the situation here, passing this bill does nothing to change the position of the ECB or force their hand. The reason the government wanted to push this through is because it was exposed and it was damage limitation in terms of what would happen on the markets, in the banks and in IBRC when they found out this was the plan but hadn’t actually happened.

The reason they want to change the prom notes to soverign bonds is because interest only is payable on the bonds over their term with the full amount payable on maturity. This effectively lets the entire debt of the prom note rest until the bond matures which frees up government funds in the short term (but does nothing to reduce the debt overall).

None of this has anything to do with the ECB and not one part of it forces the ECB’s hand. If we get a deal with the ECB this is a separate matter and depends alot on how Honohon gets on today and also how the ECB react. You are of course competely disregarding that this move may be seen in a negative light by the ECB as it delays repayment in full of the prom notes.

So I’m not too sure what blogs you have been reading if you believe this was all a ploy to force the hand of the ECB?

Additionally, just to add, my comment does not deal at all with the potential unconstitutional sections of the act, including a potential infringement of property rights. Or indeed that the Department of Finance has effectively been turned into a bank due to its ability to issue bonds. I’m just saying that this move does not actually ‘force the hand of the ECB’ in any way.

@CABK so IBRC has been liquidated.

Right now, what is the status of the prom note ?

This link should clarify. Given the bill has passed the prom note is no more (in terms of being able to debate its unconstitutionality and potentially default on it) and will be replaced by a bond. This is the most comprehensive/no frills detailing of what we know so far. Anglo being liquidated is more of an aside point imo, as it allows the prom note to be changed into a bond. It being liquidated does not in itself do anything to reduce the debt or give us a better bargaining position with the ECB. Its a different issue.

http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/

The prom note has not been converted into a bond. (Yet.)

The process by which that happens, if it happens (seems to be regarded as a certainty for some reason) will be key and furthermore the terms of the bond.

I understand the prom note is now between the Irish Central Bank/ECB and NAMA, having been transferred from IBRC last night.

It is possible that conversion to bond does not happen between those two parties and the prom note remains as the obligation form, and is vulnerable to being struck out by the courts as unconstitutional.

A conversion may happen whereby NAMA and the Irish CB/ECB agree a bond (of as yet unknown terms) which commits NAMA to pay coupons and principal at end of term to the Irish CB/ECB.

Correct me if I am wrong on any of this, but it appears that Irish CB/ECB require NAMA (Noonan) to agree the terms of the bond such that we will issue it.

That’s true – I didn’t mean to sound like it was a certainty. Rather than Noonan/Nama deciding the terms though it will be more of a decision of the ECB whether they let us or not. It would be in their interests (I think) to do so as then the debt will no longer be a somewhat shaky prom note but will be an actual sovereign bond that we will have to repay or actually default.

The main point I am trying to make is regarding your initial post – this does nothing to change the position of Ireland or to improve our position when bargaining with the ECB.

I appreciate the discussion CABK, trying to make sense of it myself.

Reading up further on it, the picture seems to be that the Irish CB and ECB should be regarded as one and the same thing in terms of what the Irish CB is permitted to do.

The Irish CB provided ELA cash to IBRC in exchange for the Prom Note as collateral.

Ireland has just liquidated IBRC, and from my scanning of the Bill, NAMA has the option but not the obligation to take on IBRC’s assets and liabilities.

The Irish CB is effectively looking at the party it gave the ELA cash to as being in liquidation (seemingly in a pari passu format), while the Irish CB is still holding a State prom note. IBRC had been paying back the 3.1bn chunks to the Irish CB annually, which the Irish CB has to destroy to maintain ECB integrity.
That repayment was a State obligation, as the issuer of the Prom Note.

So the State is still on the hook for those payments right now insofar as the Prom Note is valid.

What is somewhat of a NAMA/IBRC merger, it remains unclear what NAMA is obliged to inherit from IBRC. Is NAMA forced to take on all assets & liabilities? It doesn’t seem so.

The main liability the State needs to worry about is repaying the Irish CB/ECB the ELA cash.

We could not issue a bond and continue with the prom note and the State sends the Irish CB 3.1 bn every year, as it had been doing via IBRC. The question is what is the source of the cash now that IBRC has gone away.

I don’t see anything compelling Ireland to replace the Prom Note at the Irish CB with a Government Bond.

I am not certain on exactly what the situation is as I am also still reading up and finding out what is happening. But the reason we want the bond instead of the prom notes is that it means we no longer have to pay the 3bn every year ( with the exception of this march as that payment represents the payment due for last year). Instead we would pay interest and the bond in full at the end of its term thereby freeing up funds in the short term. This is why the government want the bond, if the ECB approve of it. However the benefits are not clear cut.

Looks like Noonan and Dragi have agreed terms to convert the prom note to a bond.

The bank guarantee was rushed through. Which bailed out illegal activity at Anglo. And as the Hall case was about to show the whole fiasco was in itself illegal. Now this late night shenanigans has turned the entirely illegal private debts guarantee into an iron fastened sovereign debt. Which cannot ever be written down. It’s terms can only be lengthened but at end of day,Which will be 40 yrs from now it will still HAVE TO BE PAID IN FULL.

Your right bowie! Half of those fu*ckers only think of themselves, the other half just dont think at all.

Don’t worry – I know the daughter of one of the Senior Partners.
Good people so they are..

I like the cut of your jib everlast, there’s a management position for you!

“Emergency” as in, if it were to be made public it would cause an emergency.

And it did.

So…

i agree im to old to leave as well but have a 9 yr old who im already saying leave ireland wghen shes older enough………very sad

Ff posturing and posing last night,oh they were against the rushing of legislation,yet all fell in line and voted yes. getting off this now,stayed up to watch the dail live.the jeering and sneering from labour+fine gael during independents debate was fcuking shocking to say the least. Bah

Agreed. Their behavior in the Chamber was disgusting. Being given a limited time frame to rush through an important piece of legislation and yet they have time to waste on catcalls and jeering which prevents the current speaker from finishing. There was no actual discussion of the bill, just alot of grandstanding and waffling on by FG and Labour.

“the jeering and sneering from labour+fine gael during independents debate”

This is a matter of concern and has been growing in the past few months. It’s as if those in the Big 3 parties don’t believe democratically elected independent TDs have a right to a say in our parliament. Disgraceful attitude from them.

agreed Niall, Disrespect to the Irish people. legitimate questions regarding serious legislation, rushed through with no explanation, just waffle, and trust us, and forget the details, noonan actually said, forget the details. if this is not a good enough reason for a general election, I dont know what is. The shower in there need to be dragged out. Party politics should be done away with permanently.

will we?

David McWilliams plays the Irish people for fools, his populist disagreements with whatever the government is doing endears himself to the ignorant masses who lap up his books like fat people devour a chipper.

conor go spill your vile somewhere else this country at the top is as corrupt as any country in africa,this is how wars start we are truly living in dangerous times.

You can bet your life he won’t leave empty handed.

They will all probably get the same deal working for NAMA.

The bonds would be immediately cashed in forcing the bank and consequently the government to have to pay an enormous amount of cash in the next day that isn’t there.

Simon,
the €500m in deposits isn’t an asset, it’s a liability. According to the debate last night, there is a total of €14b in assets. Probably loans that IRBC still hold.
In saying that, I still find the whole situation strange. I don’t understand why the opposition wasn’t given the bill earlier in the day. The Gov’ knew the Dail sitting was coming up, and the bill was already drafted.

I think they were protecting the 13 billion in the bank

Spot on

It won’t do anything.

I’m all for taking meaningful action, but a protest is pure nonsense.

What benifit does the ecb get from it ?? Nothing

Potential illegal promissory note now becoming sovreign debt thats the benefit i can see to the ECB.

If its illegal te same late nite dail sitting can happen and overturn

He’s basically further cementing our commitment to this bank debt, albeit tying it up legally so there can be no high court challenge to the promissory note. Which is why they wanted it done overnight, before the courts could open and object. Bravo Noonan.

I don’t think you really understand what’s happening here at all tbh.

I tried to deal with some of what you were saying in a post above if you’d like to read it. Re agreeing bond terms, I mean the premise that a bond pays interest until maturity can’t be changed. Additionally, the prom notes are effectively gone after this bill has been passed. This means that the prom note is now sovereign debt and therefore any loophole whereby it could be deemed unconstitutional is gone (it wouldn’t have been deemed unconstitutional either btw as we would lose too much in the long term).

I’ve responded to you above. Are the prom notes gone as of last night as you say?

I thought they’d just moved to NAMA and today they still exist. Conversion to a bond has not happened yet. We are still in a fluid situation and will discover if Noonan’s plan is to convert to a bond at certain terms or leave the promissary note exist and be attacked on constitutional grounds.
By moving it from the liquidated IBRC, he prevents the IBRC bondholders from defending the prom note.

Probably not but his problem will now be with Nama, who are a lot more interested in getting any money than all of the money, so there is probably a deal to be done.

Ask the people of cavan and the surronding areas, St Quinn done nothing wrong, never mind the fact that there are children not even born that will be paying the insurance levy bestowed on the Irish public by Quinn and his cohorts.

http://www.itsyourmoney.ie