Best read of the week, hands down! Cheers.

Rónán
Excellent !

Spot on!

Nail and head come to both my minds

Me too, I used to sometimes hear voices calling or whispering my name when I was small. It had definitely stopped by the time I was nine or ten.

What the hell do you mean in special school. So children with intellectual disabilities or autism etc have mental illness and hear voices. Think before you post.

There should be their and stock should be Shock

But were you not surprised that so many people who did hear voiced DIDN’T have any mental illness diagnoses later? Or surprised at how many children are affected? I found the latter surprising and interesting.

As for the fact that you didn’t find one of the findings surprising: do you think they shouldn’t have bothered checking mental illness diagnoses in the kids reporting hearing voices then? And generally, do you think that we should never bother testing to see if our assumptions about he apparently obvious are correct? I mean, if that was the case we’d still be practicing bloodletting as a standard medical technique for dozens of illnesses!

Well said Susie! I hear these voices a lot actually, problem is I don’t listen enough! I think it’s called yer conscience.

I can’t agree more, and do exactly the same myself.
I’m sure the “purpose” of this study is to tell us we need to medicate our children more.
I’m of the opinion that if you dug deep enough and read the fine print, this study would be sponsored by the “Happy Drug Peddling, Because We Love You, And It Has Nothing To Do With Profits, Pharmaceutical Company Inc.”

I presume the purpose of the study is the early diagnosis of psychopathy and/psychosis in children so that it can be treated before it develops into something worse in adult life. There is a big difference between talking something through in your head and actually hearing voices outside your head. It is a difficult concept to get around but it is a very real and serious condition for some people.

The youngest kids surveyed were 11. I would be very very surprised if an 11 year old couldn’t tell the difference between their own thoughts in their head and hearing voices.

The purposes of this study appear to have been:
1. To learn how many adolescents have auditory hallucinations (hear voices)
2. To learn how many adolescents have mental illness

This is useful as it shows that hearing voices is pretty common in younger kids, but that it correlates strongly with mental illnesses in older teenagers, so that it might be something worth watching out for to see if kids are at risk of developing mental illness.

In other words, the purpose of this study was to increase our knowledge of adolescent mental health, which in turn enables us to provide more fitting assistance to teenagers with mental health issues.

@Brian Ward
With all due respect to any one who suffers from a mental illness, this study on children this age is pure sh1te.
Kids @ 10-13( ask any parent) do not have the maturity to be quizzed in this way . Maybe at 15 yrs old, they could conduct a study that might mean more.
@ Warren
I believe you are right . Drug the kids at their most UNinhibited , keep free thinking for the ”powers” that be ,like the large corporate drug companies .
@ John
Listen to those voices more John , I am beginning to do that too . You are correct it is conscience and I will be paying it more attention.

Aoife O ‘C, to quote yourself…
”Me too, I used to sometimes hear voices calling or whispering my name when I was small. It had definitely stopped by the time I was nine or ten.”
Were these voices the dawning of awareness ? Hardly mental illness ! Only at that age kids become aware that they do not talk about voices or imaginary friends ….
I have to disagree with the findings of this study . Sorry . I must listen to my conscience in this instance :)

And your a qualified Psychiatrist/ psychotherapist/ counsellour susie to say that kids that age shouldnt be asked those questions? Or that those that did ask them are not qualified to??? Is that what your saying???

Adrian Nolan
Why ? Is it only qualified Psychologists / Psychiatrists / Physicians allowed to comment ?
It is entirely none of your business as to what my qualifications are . My comment is valid .

I think its a fair question if your such an authority on the subject.

Good man Adrian
Maybe I could answer on Susie’s behalf me being an auld dad and grandfather an’ the like. It is not unusual for people who have reared children through the various stages of adolescent development to kinda develop a nose for these things. In fact I would trust my own instincts in judging my children and grandchildren’s behaviour through our natural familiarity over and above some geek with a clipboard asking questions set by someone behind a desk being paid by who knows whom.
I will hazard a guess that Susie has broadly the same experience as myself maybe even more involved given the very likely possibility that she is a mother!

Susie, child psychology isn’t my area of expertise but why wait until they are 15 to begin research? Why not 16 or 17? The fact of the matter is that children do suffer from mental illness and studies at that age are valid. The research is carried out by professionals and submitted to a peer reviewed article for review before it is published. This is not something that was written up in a day and then published in the Sun. There are tested and validated methods for questioning both children and adults whether it is through self reporting, interview or a combination of both.

I think that this http://epubs.rcsi.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=psychart is the study in question and if it is then you will see that it is backed up by a large amount of referencing. I agree that some children have imaginary friends and the like however this study is valid as “Individuals who report psychotic symptoms have also been demonstrated to share a wide range of risk factors with psychosis patients, including shared obstetric,developmental, substance use, social and environmental risk factors”. The sooner that these risk factors are identified the sooner that they can be treated. If a 9 yo child is showing signs of a disorder do you think that we should wait until they are 15 before assessing them? Mental disorders are like any disease, the longer it goes untreated the harder it will be to treat.

I can see where you are coming from and understand what you are saying as regards the age of the children but look at the findings. “More than half of the 11-to-13-year-olds who reported hearing voices were found to have a diagnosable psychiatric disorder.
Among the children aged between 13 and 16, seven per cent said they had heard voices. However, almost 80 per cent of those experiencing auditory hallucinations were found to have a psychiatric disorder.” If we wait until they are 15 those children will have gone untreated for up to 4 years! As for drugs, well that is not always the best way to treat disorders, there is also cognitive therapy as well, but really who cares as long as they get the proper treatment to have a decent quality of life.

@Adrian and Brian

If you do a quick bit of research, you’ll see that Ian Kelleher, the “lead researcher” is still a student (a PHD student, yes, but NOT a qualified psychologist/psychiatrist). Ergo, what makes him qualified to deliver these “results” as being medically sound?

Yes, he may know more on the subject than most of us, BUT he’s just as qualified (as far as the requirements to practice as a mental health professional go) as you or I (for the time being at least). I know that’s nit-picking, but we’re taking the word of someone not YET legally qualified to deliver these results.

While I truly believe there is a plethora of mental illness out there, I take offense to the current trend of these “professionals” wherein the point to all our children and say, “They’re all mental and need MY help, here let me write a prescription for mind-altering drugs for you. Trust me on this, I have a qualification!”

@John Murphy
I agree with what your saying about parents and guardians being best placed to deal with their children’s emotional needs and well being but you surely have to agree with me that not EVERY parent is capable of doing it the way you or a lot of others might. Denial is another reason parents might choose to look the other way if they suspect something is wrong, and just hope it goes away. God forbid we get little johnny looked at and the doctors tell us he is mad, what would the neighbours think!!!!! To totally dismiss the study and call it “pure shite” as Susie did is unfair and wrong.

Brian
Thank you for your reply , and I know that children suffer from mental/ psychiatric illness, but to say that ”More than half of the 11-to-13-year-olds who reported hearing voices were found to have a diagnosable psychiatric disorder” What I would like to see is the surveyors , to concentrate on these numbers and come back and tell us how many of them are ”certifiable” . You know , kids are very vulnerable and their minds are not only like sponges but are easily directed or influenced and a lot depends on their environment and living conditions.So unless something can be done to improve a childs lot then what is the point of these surveys.
I knew a child , who at 16 yrs of age had never been in Mc Donalds , didn’t know how to order , what to order etc, he had never been in a restaurant or cafe. He ate in front of the telly using his fingers or a spoon, he slurped and had entirely no table manners . That does not mean he was bad mannered , it means that he was never taught / trained / shown . He was never at the cinema either or read a book,or in a library, was he thick , stupid ? No,he was neglected. I knew a girl and at 15 , she was not toilet trained , how awful was that ? She could not speak properly all her words ran into one another ….. Was she a psychiatric case …. NO . She was neglected . Now I am not saying that she or the boy , did not need help , they did and they got it .What I am saying is that there is too much emphasis put onto ”paper theories” and not enough on practical appications.
Neither am I saying that psychiatric children with diagnosable conditions are neglected …. FAR FROM IT . These kids are the most loved and well treated .
But to interview children at ten -thirteen yrs of age is a very broad based survey. What was the Interviewers purpose ? I believe that children should be listened to more than they are , I believe in discipline in children from a young age , and I believe in LOVE, CARE ,and FUN,. So if a child tells you that they hear voices , listen to them , answer them . Kids do not understand how to express themselves and often use the 3rd party to do so. We are often too busy to see this :)

Adrian
I have not dismissed anything . Read my comments . I am a parent and a bl**dy good one .
Now your insult to me directly has not gone unnoticed and is duly noted as you wanted .
I am not obliged to divulge my qualifications to you or anyone else on this forum , so grow up and go away , maybe you should have got what Begrudgy (bless him) suggests ….

Susie, I never insulted your parenting or came anywhere even close to it. I don’t know you from Adam. I asked you a question after you called the study “PURE SH1TE”. I think that qualifies as dismissing it, in any language. If my comment has offended you so much then I do apologise, it certainly wasn’t my intention. I disagreed with your comments so I asked you why you felt you were qualified to dismiss them out of hand the way you did.

Warren you are indeed correct that Ian Kelleher is a Phd research student however that does not prevent him from presenting his own research papers. You don’t have to be “legally” qualified to present a paper you just have to be able to back up your facts and have them endorsed. In this case the other people who are named in the paper are all qualified Doctors and Mary Cannon is an associate professor with the RCSI. I don’t think that they would put their names to something that wasn’t up to standard! The paper has also been peer reviewed by other doctors as to it’s findings so I’m pretty sure that this guy Kelleher wasn’t far off the mark.

Even I could submit a paper if the methodology and research was sound although I don’t think I’ll be doing that any time soon! :-)

Adrian
I’ll be honest with you, I do not trust these surveys. I take your point about irresponsible parents/guardians in relation to this matter but the same applies to many other equally important aspects of a child’s development. To paraphrase an unfortunate observation – like the poor, bad parenting will always be with us – no amount of drugs, surveys or indeed ‘qualified’ professionals will change that.
If I was to be really cynical here (and believe you me I’m strongly tempted) I would regard a lot of these type of surveys as little more than exercises of solicitation for subject matter to serve the interests of pharmaceutics, psychiatric and counselling processionals.
On another point about ‘bad parenting’. I would be of the opinion that ‘bad parents’ would be those most likely to be influenced by the likes of these surveys and the ‘treatments’ available arising from the outcome. Those that are ‘good parents’ would be more likely to rely on their own more fitting resources in terms of iniatially identifying the problem and choosing the appropiate solution.

Adrian
Don’t worry yourself . I am not offended. I just said it was noted .
No you do not know me from Adam , nor I you .
Apology accepted , but I think my comments are still valid and
I stand over them .
I would however like to hear , in your own experience , what you
make of the survey ? You never know we might even have some common ground !

John,
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. We are coming at this from differing perspectives, backgrounds and life experience. I am just wondering is this your view on child mental health or on mental health in general?

That’s a toughy Adrian! I guess I am suspicious of most aspects of mental health treatment. To my mind(!) it seems to stumble around in the dark a lot. I’m thinking here of treatments like ECT, which still goes on, right back to the early studies and ‘experiments’ upon which most of modern psychology is based.
These suspicions, naturally, would be most pronounced in the matter of child mental health as in that instance the brain is developing alongside the absorption of life’s experiences – puberty for instance and the development of sexuality (tricky times!) meaning that many aspects of behaviour might be misinterpreted.

Begging to differ is alright Adrian. I wish you well!

Susie,
I can only go on personal experience. I wont go into details for obvious reasons, but I think when it comes to mental health we seem to have this attitude that we should stick our heads in the sand and hope it goes away, regardless of whether its about the mental health of adults or children. As a society we seem unable or afraid to open up or admit that we may have a problem for fear of being labelled as “mad” or perceived as weak. Child psychology is about identifying issues before they become problems and dealing with them effectively. This is done mostly without medication, or it should be if the person who is dealing with them knows their stuff. From my understanding of it, the report above is specific to psychotic symptoms, not psychotic disorders or mental illness. Being able to identify it early may help to prevent the person from developing what it calls comorbid Axis-1disorders which I think are things like mood, anxiety, disruptive behavior, and substance use disorders. I’m open to correction on any of that from more learned people then myself but that is my reading of it. If studies like this can help prevent further pain and anguish down the line then I am all for them.

Adrian
I absolutely agree with you about ”Mental Health.. and how it is perceived . I do not think that mental health issues should be undermined in any way and is as serious a problem as any health issue . However , altho I agree with you I differ somewhat in how psychotic symptoms are noticed and acted upon as in the above report re children . There are good parents and there are bad parents and you know we are not always always good , and not always always bad.Then there are parents who should never have children ,and I reckon we have all heard of them ones on the news re court reports etc… However for the rest of us , we know when our kids need help or are in trouble , and it is at that point we either A) become proactive , or B) throw our arms up in the air and say sher what can I do , and go to the pub , bring young child to the doctor and get them medicated….. I believe I am A) and I will get to the bottom of the concerns of the child. John Murphy hit the nail on the head ”On another point about ‘bad parenting’. I would be of the opinion that ‘bad parents’ would be those most likely to be influenced by the likes of these surveys and the ‘treatments’ available arising from the outcome”And this is where I disagree with this type of survey. Lazy parents labelling children and expecting doctors , social workers, teachers, youth workers and even medication to rear our children.Look I am treading on eggshells here and I do not want to hurt or cause any upset to anyone , but I feel that this type of survey is not good enough. Children hear voices , see dead people and have imaginary friends . but to lable them as having a basis in a psychological or psychiatric disorder is a push too far for me .
But Adrian I knew we would find common ground :) And for that I am glad . I suffered from Baby blues after one of my kids were born and I felt that I was run over by a truck ….. Awful few weeks ,and with my docs help I got over it , but that glimpse into a dark place is not lost on me and I would support any effort to find a way of treating a psychiatric disorder sooner rather than later . Children’s minds are too fragile to mess around with and we should try any thing else first… Have a nice evening Adrian.

Speaking as an atheist who most definitely doesn’t want religion taught as fact in state-funded schools…

What the hell are you on about? People don’t catch auditory hallucinations from catechism lessons, and it’s irrelevant and downright unhelpful of you to say that they religion is to be blamed for mental illness.

I have yet to see you make an intelligent comment on any topic issued on journal.ie, what age are you? 10?

gavin tobin strikes again

I wonder what percentage of the 20% have taken LSD or mushrooms or smoked some skunk weed. Was the question asked in the study? I’ve been offered E by an 8 year old in Dublin city and he was clearly off his tits on it at the time so a valid question I think.