I’d say there’s more chance of the pope getting married!!!

Gay marriage is against his religion Neil

Neil: The Pope has apologised before and I’m sure he will do so again.

@alan cooke. I agree. Ireland though seems to have a problem with what constitutes a criminal act. In 2009 the Ryan Report & the Murphy Report were both published and in the Ryan Report 800 individual abusers were identified and at least 5 religious orders were found to have facilitated abusers and covered up abuses. The abuses committed against children included slavery, starvation and physical and sexual torture. Yet figures from the Dept. of Justice reveal that nobody has been prosecuted, nor has any religious order been the subject of criminal proceedings. In that very same year 15,000 people were prosecuted for not having a TV licence or for not paying a fine.

@Andrew Brennan you are so right not prosecuting is Against Clause 44 of the Constitution, this is “positive” discrimination?

Article 44

1. The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is
due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and
shall respect and honour religion.

2. 1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice
of religion are, subject to public order and morality,
guaranteed to every citizen.

2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.

3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make
any discrimination on the ground of religious profession,
belief or status.

4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not
discriminate between schools under the management of
different religious denominations, nor be such as to
affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a
school receiving public money without attending
religious instruction at that school.

5° Every religious denomination shall have the right to
manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer
property, movable and immovable, and maintain
institutions for religious or charitable purposes.

6° The property of any religious denomination or any
educational institution shall not be diverted save for
necessary works of public utility and on payment of
compensation.

@Shame of Ireland
Interesting article in yesterdays IT where it was pointed out that the publication of a report into the consistent failures by the Gardai was delayed because of ‘legal constraints’. One of the findings of the report was that record keeping was so poor that up to 65% of sex crimes against children were not officially noted! It is also pointed out that the Ryan found that Gardai had colluded in the physical and sexual abuse of children.
Haven’t heard many apologies from Garda sources either.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0203/1224311174966.html

sorry, “apology”, not “aplolgy”.

The pre-publication draft of Ratzinger’s Apologia in 2009 is here: http://wp.me/p4lhq-1j – it was composed by a committee in the Curia.

They didn’t commit these crimes but they didn’t stop them either.

@S P Mc Grath
I agree with you that the majority of priests were not involved in such acts and thankfully you have positive experiences to look back on.
In my experience,I have to say that others were however aware of what was happening and chose to do nothing.
Or perhaps they did, but their reports fell on deaf ears in the hierarchy.
The church as a whole was and still is more concerned with trying to protect with its reputation than it has ever been with the crimes committed by its members.

@S P Mc Grath – every archbishop of Dublin from McQuaid up to Desmond Connell were criminally negligent. They facilitated child abuse if it was perpetrated by a clerical colleague. The primate of all-Ireland Sean Brady himself facilitated the Most Reverend Father Brendan Smyth- Brady’s ‘investigation’ ensured that the Most Reverend Father Brendan Smyth was free to continue using children for his own sexual gratification. To ensure this he swore child victims of the Most Reverend Father Brendan Smyth to a Pontifical Secret Oath: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v_DI8_yPQM – Evil is as evil does.

Not true!

Barry any mind control regime is cyclical the masses are fed a bs story to make them feel good and secure about themselves. Censorship is imposed on critics. Scapegoats are created and the leaders of the regime thrive on unconditional power and become convinced of their invincibility and make unethical depraved decisions as a result of unwarranted power. Eventually the consequences of these bad decisions result in harm to societies that outweigh the original satisfying delusions. This is the tipping point. The people rally against the leaders and they are overthrown. In the age of the Internet and social media this process becomes more pronounced. I for one welcome it.

Well I’m not sure if it started it exactly, but when Annie Murphy appeared on the LLS there was scandal across the country that she’d had a child with Eamonn Casey; then there were a couple of stories about financial “resting in my account” type of thing; then of course Ireland start to prosper a bit (before the mythical boom really kicked in); the dark recession of the 80s had just finished; there was an opening up of Society; States of Fear was shown on the TV, then Brendan Smyth extradition case caused the gov to fall in 94, and (almost overnight) books were written about the abuse, the Sunday newspapers started reporting and it all snowballed………….

Could be that sidelining the catholic church put all the power in the hands of the politicians , scum like our Enda and pals . When you seek to eliminate anything always check what is left – I think the word missing from many of the above comments is balance.

Ivor there is no such thing as balance in religion. It is an edict declaring if you don’t believe in bullshit then you will be a miserable wretch. It is a statement that happiness and reality cannot coexist. Yes politics can adopt similar positions such as Hitler, Stalin, Kim Jong Il etc but to say Enda Kenny is of that ilk just goes to prove my point that the religious will go to any lengths to protect their delusions.

and it takes guts to stand up when you’re oppressed by any church; I don’t know how old you are Sean, but the difference in attitudes between the 1970’s and now is unbelievable. No woman went to mass in the 70s without covering their hair (sound familiar?) and pregnant women wore coats to mass even in the height of summer to cover their “condition”. The Church colluded to keep most of the population in “their place”. I’m not sure you realise how powerful they were.

I agree Sean like most forms of tyranny it is always found out too late and everyone jumps on the band wagon. However it is better late than never. All I can do is speak for myself I grew up in rural Ireland where religion was deemed an essential part of growing up school etc. When I started working in the UK I became cynical of religion. I came back to Ireland and within the 2 years that I had left from 1998-2000 all had changed. I wasn’t quite Atheist but had abandoned religion. It was when I travelled America in 2008 that I realised we have a problem not just Ireland and Catholicism but religion in general. The experience of America fermented my belief that our inherent irrationality is a liability to our species that may very well result in our destruction at some stage.

Elegant prose.

Spot on!! Horrible crimes were committed without a doubt but he has apologised on many a occasion!!

Laudetur Jesus Christus – right condulmer?

Is every apology another reminder that you support an abusive church. You just want it all to stop and go away

You apologize when you are sorry, if you are sorry you make amends. That’s where the big issue is; what does the church as individuals and as a corporate group do make amends. Money? Sack cloth and ashes? Impale priests? The Church is not going away, so what does it do to make sure child abuse does not happen again within its ranks? If you have any experience of a parish today, you will know that they are doing their level best to make sure children are safe. The Cloyne report would suggest otherwise, but my experience of parishes suggests that the Catholic Church in Ireland has got its act together on this one.

No offence but I’ll take the Cloyne report findings over your experience at a parish level.
Also judging by this the church hasn’t quite got it’s act together as you claim.
http://www.alliancesupport.org/news/archives/004192.html

None taken Rommel, however, Cloyne is a small diocese and the cases mentioned are also not numerous. Recent report on other diocese that are much larger show that things are very different. It should go without saying that clerical abuse is vile and a painful reality for many survivors. The church not only ‘got it wrong’, its action and inaction destroyed lives. I however would have no trouble letting my kids get involved in church activities, coz I believe there are huge safe guards in place; not just to ward of priests, but to make sure kids are safe in every way. The ordinary folks on the ground (including priests) will never let it happen again. Bishops et al. have no choice in that matter. And if it does….as it might….there will be hell to pay. As Yeats said “All changed, changed utterly”

Try reading the article. Specifically the penultimate paragraph

@ Condulmer
Which reports on other Diocese’s? and who were the reports carried out by?
Also the size of the Cloyne diocese and the number of victims is irrelevant, one victim is one too many in my opinion.
Given the predatory nature of paedophiles I’m afraid I can’t share your trust that it will never be let happen again.
One thing that I can agree with you on though, is that there will be Hell to pay if those bastards even believe in it.

One case of clerical abuse is to much…no, strike that…one case of sexual abuse is too many. There are so many protocols and procedures in place in parishes that a child is never even alone with an adult. Where I go the servers are in a completely separate room from the priest, in the company of 2 parents who have been vetted. They all sign a book, including the priest, who also is vetted; the letter to say so is laminated and on the wall for all to see. The priest cant even be alone with his nieces or nephews; just because he is a priest. Proper order, you might say. But do any other professions laminate and publicly display their garda clearance?

@Paul Lanigan: in aeternum!

John the catholic church was up to no good long before they were raping children of both genders in schools. Also the covering up of the crime is as bad as the crime itself

@ John O’Kneel 3.2 per cent of sexual abuse is carried out by religious or clergy. The same Savi Report found that 2.5 per cent of abuse was by fathers. It means that religious or clergy(ie, diocesan priests, priests in religious congregati*ons, and brothers) as a social cohort are more than 1.25 times more likely to abuse than biological fathers.

Statistica*lly speaking little Johnny is safer with his dad than with any religious person or any person of authority.

Combining religious ministers and religious teachers, they constitute*d the largest single category of authority figures as abusers of boys; 5.8 percent of all boys sexually abused were abused by clergy or religious. A smaller proportion (1.4 percent) of girls were abused by clergy or religious.

‘Prevalenc*e of Sexual Violence Child Sexual Abuse (defined as sexual abuse of children and adolescent*s under age 17 years). SAVI Report”

why so many red thumbs on this one,
well said John and many of the survivors/victims of abuse by close relative &/ family friends never disclose or seek redress for fear of bringing shame on rest of family etc and they can be the forgotten ones with no one or place to turn too for help.

Agreed.

Jesus would back me up on this: Jesus said that anyone who harms a child or causes a child to be harmed should have a millstone tied to the neck and thrown into the deepest ocean. I think Ratzinger and Brady should take time out to learn to swim.

Wow! Are you sick or what? Maybe we should hang the leaders of the Catholic church, same as we did to the Nazi leaders after the war! That should keep “this crowd” quiet! What do you think??

Melissa, that is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen on the Journal!

Melissa you obviously do not understand the concept of papal infallibility, it has nothing to do with asking for forgiveness, Papal infallibility means that the pope, when speaking on matters of faith and morals while making an official declaration to the universal church in a general way, is protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error. It doesn’t mean they cant make mistakes or ask for forgiveness. The Pope as head of the Church can and should ask for forgiveness for the sins committed by men and women of the cloth. It is the first step to making some kind of amends.

With respect Melissa:
“Unless he did it then there’s no need for the pope to ask forgiveness.”
The current Pope was complicit in covering up that abuse though. He’s an accessory at least. So he should be asking forgiveness of his own volition if he has a conscience.

“There is such a thing as papal infallibility so he never has to ask forgiveness for anything.”
I believe Aine addressed this point.

“The only way there will be closure for the victims is if they just move on.”
This is quite a heartless comment. It denigrates the suffering of these people, it’s not quite that simple. It may be safe to assume that you were lucky enough not to have suffered abuse as a child, and this may be why you did not appreciate the callousness of your comment. Rather than accuse you outright I will assume your ignorance rather than assuming malice.

“We all know what happened and it’s time to look to the future. Even the Jews in Nazi Germany didn’t go on about it as long as this crowd!”
I don’t think that this is a useful argument. In the stakes of people “going on” about anything the Holocaust trumps this situation hands down. This has only come to the forefront recently, we’re you alive right after the Holocaust to accurately compare who “goes on” about it more?

As pointed out to you already – the closure for those who were persecuted by the Nazis may have come from the defeat of their regime by the Allies. It’s harder to get closure when the people who hurt you so badly are still walking around behaving like what they did to you didn’t matter.

what an ignorant uncaring comment melissa..what planet do you live on..disgraceful despicable attitude

@ Melissa
Your comment both sickens and saddens me to be honest.
The only ones who will get closure if the victims move on is the Church.
We don’t all know what happened because it is still happening and still being covered up.
Don’t forget the Holocaust survivors scoured the globe for the Nazi perpetrators of those crimes. Survivors will not fade away just because the Church wishes they would.

I’d say the victims would have a better idea than you on how they would get closure, unreal…

I’m not sure what is more pathetic – your severely misguided and uneducated comments or the fact that you use a fake profile to make them. I really hope that it never emerges that any of your family/ friends have been victims of abuse. ‘This crowd’ were young children/teenagers who did absolutely nothing to deserve their fate ; just like all those persecuted by the Nazi regime.
Think how you would feel if your children were effected by abuse – oh wait you obviously don’t have kids because if you did you would never make such callous comments as you have here.
If malice is not your intent I really pity the ‘innocence’ that led, in this day and age, given everything that has emerged about the catholic church both here and abroad, to you posting such heartless comments.

Melissa that is just a sick ignorant comment. The heads of the catholic church pope included have muttered empty words when put under pressure by media but have behind the scenes schemed and cheated and wriggled to hold on to their massive wealth and avoid paying restitution to victims of their regime. “Judge me on my deeds not my words”. The pope is supposed to be the living embodiment of St Peter the first pope as appointed by Christ on earth. If that’s the case how can he justify his and the church’s huge assets – compared to a poor fisherman on the shores of the sea of Galillee? There are many decent hardworking priests in the church but it needs huge reform starting at the top. Pope needs to show genuine humility starting with actions not just empty words. Maybe then victims might be able to move on – as you do callously advised them.

Maybe u might think different if you were raped as a child like these unfortunate survivors , people can move on but certain actions from leaders have to be secured before they can . That’s a very small minded view that you have and you should be ashamed to admit to it.

My god Melissa, what have they done to you? How could anyone’s mind be so poisoned

And that goes out to all the sick and twisted minds who green thumbed your comment

ohya; Papal Infallability; you realise don’t you that that only came about in the very recent past. I can vaguely remember my parents and neighbours discussing if at the time.

I could say that I’m infallible and that you all must agree with me saying that, but it still wouldn’t make it true!!!!

Plus I actually think that you just made that comment that to get a reaction (hmmn trolling at all????)

what a sickening comment Melissa, just hope no one ever makes the mistake of disclosing abuse or terror about anything to you, as I’m sure they would get great support NOT!, your attitude to the survivors and victims of all kinds of abuse and especially abuse of children by people in authority or so called trustworthy members of society is nothing short of despicable and personally puts you on an equal level with the abuser in my eyes. Remember the abuser stole something very valuable, that can never be replaced for each child and that was the child’s childhood. Think for one moment what it is like to live in fear of an adult that is meant to be kind, loving & caring towards you but instead is robbing you of your childhood and for so many the ability to live without fear . The emotional scars that these cruel people have inflected on others is just unforgivable, but that does not mean that forgiveness should not be begged for. In my opinion for many victims/survivors and their families the healing process or “looking to the future” can only truly begin when the abuse is acknowledged by way of the abuser or leader seeking forgiveness.

Melissa. That ‘s rather insensitive of you.

Think you might find that it was a pope who established the concept of papal infallibility. And not that long ago either.

If “Jews in Nazi Germany [were going] on about it” even now, don’t you think that’d be justified? That people who were abused by clerics in Ireland, and are alive to tell their stories and continue to go on about, it seems perfectly understandable. And this pope is implicated in the cover-up…