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Dublin: 18 °C Wednesday 19 June, 2013

Column: Border poll? Frankly, now isn’t the time

Calls for a vote on reunification betray an ignorance of the real issues affecting Ireland today, writes David McCann.

David McCann

WELL, HERE WE go again. You would think after almost a century of failure, Irish republicans would be tired of anti-partition campaigns by now. Since 1921, we have seen leaders from Eamon de Valera to Charles Haughey take their case out to the world against this British-imposed division of our land and last weekend Gerry Adams decided to add his name to list of Irish politicians that have made campaigns to end partition by calling for a border poll to be held within the next few years.

We have sectarian violence in Belfast, a recession and a decade of contentious commemorations ahead of us – what better remedy to calm things down than that age old debate about Irish reunification? For anybody who is a follower of Irish history it is like Groundhog Day, with the same mistakes are being made.

The natural question being posed by many is: Why start this whole debate now? In Northern Ireland we have devolved institutions that are just six years old; the government ran its full four-year term in 2011 for the first time since 1965. By Northern standards this was a huge achievement considering the Trimble/Mallon executive lasted only two years and its Sunningdale predecessor just five months in 1947. It was a real achievement (which both Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness rightly took a lot of credit for) – finally we had some semblance of stability.

The executive has coming up some real political challenges to deal with and this is not going to get any easier as we approach 2016. Before anybody considers reuniting the people of North and South, a more pressing priority should be to foster better relations between the Protestant and Catholic communities in Northern Ireland, which as we have seen in recent weeks are not exactly in great shape.

‘Failed entity’

This brings me to a wider problem in Irish republicanism, and that is the failure to properly understand Northern Unionism. For many republicans, unionists are at best misguided and at worst reactionaries determined to cling on to a state which Haughey called a ‘failed political entity’. This superiority complex that has developed over the years with the belief that republicanism is more devoted to its beliefs due to events like the Easter Rising – ignoring the similar sacrifices of many Unionists during the First World War.

Why does any of this matter to a border poll in the next few years? It matters because how on earth can you expect to win over Unionism when you ignore events that are important in their history? If those who are advocating for a border poll at the moment do not have proposals to bring to the Unionist community on compulsory Irish in schools, rejoining the Commonwealth and constitutional reform then this push for reunification is, like all its predecessors, doomed to failure. How does Sinn Féin plan to reconcile the inevitable demands for reform that they will need to win majority support in Northern Ireland with those currently living in the Irish Republic, many of whom might not want to implement any of the changes that I have mentioned above?

On the plus side for Sinn Féin, latest polls in the Irish Republic show a solid majority in favour of reunifying the island. But there the good news ends. Recent polls in Northern Ireland show support for joining the south at a record low of 32 per cent. And to make matters for their cause, just 48 per cent of Catholics would vote Yes in a referendum. The recent census figures, showing an increase in the number of Catholics within Northern Ireland, buoyed republicans – yet the figures quoted above show that while religious demographics may be shifting this is not translating into increased support for Irish unity.

Gimmicks

‘If we had told you a decade ago we would be in government with the DUP you would have laughed.’ I can hear the chorus of platitudes coming at me already but there is a real difference between entering into a coalition with a former foe and asking somebody to undergo what would be a really big lifestyle change. There is a strong sense of delusion around the entire issue of Irish unity and it would be easy to limit this problem to Sinn Féin alone but in reality this problem goes across political parties. For people who are so passionate about an issue, I have never actually seen anybody tell me how a united Ireland would work in practice.

At this juncture, with Ireland getting back on its feet economically and wounds that have still not healed in Northern Ireland, this is the wrong debate at the wrong time. What both states of Ireland need is for politicians to leave their grand visions and start addressing some real concerns, because people need that more than a debate about a red line on a map.

If Irish reunification is ever to be achieved then republicans need to get away from gimmicks that pander to the home crowd, and start addressing the realities of Ireland as they are – not as they would like them to be.

David McCann is a PhD researcher in Irish politics at the University of Ulster.

More: Sinn Féin calls for a border poll>

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Comments (93 Comments)

  • I think we should have the poll too. Let people have their say. Where is the harm in that.

    Reply
  • What’s wrong with letting people have their say? That’s what is supposed to happen in a democracy!

    Reply
  • So the reactionaries have begun to come out.

    What are you all afraid off? The good Friday Agreement?

    lets have the poll and let the people speak, if its big fat No as you guys are so sure of -then what are you afraid of.

    it will just mean SF has another 7 years of work to do while the two governments sits on their hands again.

    Reply
  • The choices under the Good Friday Agreement are very clear: United Kingdom or United Ireland (repartition, independent NI, joint authority are out. A border poll in NI is only mechanism to bring that about change (if the Secretary of State grants the poll) and it is far better than a census reflecting sectarian divisions (which the author endorses). It’s been 14 years since that agreement was signed and I’ve seen very little evidence of either government or the political parties address the practical aspects of unity (eg currency, civil service merger, application of laws, NHS v hse, economic synergies, the subsidy from the UK, social welfare rates right down to non-issues like compulsory Irish in education etc etc). A border poll will force that to be done as well as provide assurance to the loyalists that the union is secure for at least another 7 years. For many it will always be the wrong time to apply the terms of the Good Friday Agreement (which 2.1m Irish people voted for), especially if they are dissidents, mé féiners or conservatives who lack imagination (or fail to appreciate the significance of mainstream Republicans abandoning the armalite for the ballot box and why the free expression in a constitutional poll is important). Perhaps it is for those people who should address when they see the earliest point when such a poll should be held (which I suspect is somewhere between far far away and never).

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  • Irish Republic, no such thing. No, its Ireland , plain and simple

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  • The same David McCann that had that article last year on how Irish people should all wear the poppy to celebrate murder? Running theme? The Journal being used as a platform to express biased personal views?

    Reply
    • Agreed, the journal has been hijacked by the status quo brigade.

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    • So the author has previous on this, that is good to know. I will treat this article with the contempt it deserves.

      Reply
    • Dont normally respond to comments but you do realise this is the Op-ed section? Where authors are supposed to give their views on topics. If you dont like them, you are free to give a dissenting view.

      One the poppy article-I never said all Irish people should wear one, I was simply making the point that tens of thousands of Irish men died in WW1 for this country and we should not forget that fact. If you do not want want to wear a poppy thats perfectly fine. But the men of WW1 like the men of 1916 died so the people of the this country could freely express their views without hinderance. My pieces on these issues expressing a dissenting is surely the greatest tribute to their legacy?

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  • A bit of proof reading wouldn’t have gone astray! Don’t see much reasoning here either way. Wrong article at the wrong time more like.

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  • What a moronic, one sided article full of fallacious arguments and hyperbole.

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  • I think Arlene Fosters bluff should be called and the poll should go ahead and for those who say the Shinners are in a for big shock -so, right lets have the poll.

    seems to me that Mr David Poppy McCann was only wheeled out now as a response to this sites internal poll which with a big majority expressed favour with such a poll going ahead. was it only me who thought that poll was shut down very fast?

    For people like you Mr McCann -no time will ever be the right time to hold a border poll, so stop trying to hold back the tide of change – as irish reunification is a very real issue for more people than you would like to think.

    Reply
  • I don’t see how economics should be a factor for reunification of ireland…Germany has a big bank balance :)

    Reply
  • If not now then when? Lip service is something which the electorate has come to expect from politicians. The position of “when the time is right” is what responsible for the disconnect between citizens and their governments.

    I presented to you David on the corridors of Jordanstown basically a list of inaction and broken promises of politicians from this island regarding irish unity dating back 90 years. Why oh why when a party begins to act do you shut it down? I’m not sure what partitionism has done to you and your family… But i know its failed mine. Civil rights, employment rights, residential rights, emigration, cultural subjugation, sectarianism… I could go on.

    While i am aware times have changed in many respects the same problems remain… All i say is put it to the public… Let Democracy play a role in the story of Irelands soverignty. Diktats from London or the old Stormont coupled with the lip secvice from Dublin are all legitimate apparantly… Why not a border poll by the people?

    Lets at least try to rid ireland of its last shackle.

    Reply
  • Looking forward to the day we remove that statue of Carson (typical westbrit Dub!!) from outside Stormont.Saor Eire.

    Reply
    • Carson actually wasn’t the worst of them. It’s unfortunate that Ulster Unionism eclipsed Irish Unionism at the beginning of the 20th century and the northern protestant business class rife with fundamentalist Christian views came to power in the Six-Counties.

      It would have been far more likely that Republicanism could have come to an accommodation with an All-Ireland Unionism, but the nature of the industrial north with his highly concentrated areas of Unionism formed during the years around the 3rd Home Rule crisis prevented this.

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    • Leave Carson where he is. Erect an equal-sized statue of Michael Collins beside him, and we’ll have a Cork man and a Dublin man standing outside Stormont to represent both sides going in and out. The irony might be lost on the unionists.

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  • It seems unlikely that a poll will ever result in a United Ireland. The EU makes the border irrelevant.

    If you are trying to get a united Ireland, I think it is as good a time as any to take a punt, with the EU referendum in the UK and the independence referendum in Scotland. If people attitudes to the Union change, it will be because of these events.

    Reply
  • It’s like my wife’s family having a poll to see if they are coming to my house for Christmas dinner. Nobody has asked me yet.

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  • Looks like a poppy wearer too..

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  • Richard 23/01/13 #

    What does a ‘semblance of stability’, as the author puts it, mean in relation to Northern Ireland? As far as I can see, it means a) the stripping away of the welfare state provisions that were put in place post-war; b) the dismantling and privatisation of public services such as the NHS and the Housing Executive; c) the systematic harassment of people who are unemployed or need benefit payments to keep their head above water; d) the reshaping of the Northern economy in the interests of financiers, property developers and those who provide them with professional services; e) the enshrouding of a), b), c), d) and many other outrages in a heavily mediated spectacle of competing nationalisms, neither of which is inclined to do anything about the items listed above, apart from cheer it on. Stability for those whose primary interest, governance, ratcheting down living standards and legalised robbery, perhaps, but instability for huge numbers of people in Northern Ireland.

    Irish republicans are right to see unionists as ‘at best misguided and at worst reactionaries’, because that, politically speaking, is what they are. Unionism is the racist liberalism of a property-owning class steeped in colonial paranoia. It cheers on every imperialist outrage perpetrated by the British state and supports other racist colonialist enterprises such as the Zionist oppression of Palestinians, with which it frequently finds common cause. When not celebrating extra-judicial assassinations or exulting in empty jingoism, it embarks on hopeless rebranding exercises, trying to glom onto the expressions of ‘Britishness’ concocted by professional manipulators emanating from London.

    ‘Unionism’ should not be ‘won over’ to anything. It has shown time and again that it sees democracy as something to be dispensed with and quelled with batons and bullets whenever expedient. No wonder Leo Varadkar met with the Orange Order this 12th of July. However, those people who identify as unionists ought to be persuaded to form part of a democratic political community in which they will automatically be treated as equals, and join in the work of creating a better society for all.

    Ireland is an island of two states that have failed the majority of people living in both, and partition has been a catastrophe. The status quo will see increasingly authoritarian neo-liberalism administered to working populations North and South, with the health of the financial sector and the investment climate prioritised over the health and welfare of the population in each jurisdiction, and the constant policing of public deliberations. The spectre of a violent conflagration will be used –North and South- to quell any kind of democratic dissent or democratising of the island’s political institutions.

    I am unsure about the potential effect of a border poll at the moment. Nonetheless I think this piece has failed to address the realities of Ireland, preferring to see the island through the lens of the administrator who seeks policed identitarian deliberations in the place of democratic politics.

    Reply
  • The people down south didn’t know what they were voting for in the Good Friday agreement as it was sold as “vote yes for peace” it wasn’t made clear that we giving up our constitutional claim over the north. Also when I was going to school in the 80′s and 90′s I was always told that our flag was green white and gold (just look at the footage from euro 88 and all Irelands from the past) but then all of a sudden it was green white and orange… How did that happen?

    Reply
    • Colin C 23/01/13 #

      It was always green white and orange. Ignorant people only thought otherwise. As for the GFA, we all new that articles 2and 3 were being removed. I voted. I was old enough at the time, so don’t know where you get this ‘we didn’t know’ nonsense. It’s actually portraying the Irish people as quite stupid to suggest otherwise.

      Reply
    • Well aren’t you the enlightened one, if it was explained as you say it was do you think the Irish people would if supported it to the extent they did? No neither do I….

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    • Colm, you must have been hiding under the bed if you didn’t realise that Articles 2 & 3 were part & parcel of the GFA. It was debated right, left & centre for weeks beforehand.

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    • I have no doubt that it was mentioned as a side note, but the main tag line was “yes for peace”

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    • Colin C 23/01/13 #

      It was explained perfectly well. In fact there was a vigorous but small No campaign.

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    • Colin C 23/01/13 #

      Colm, if you think it was a side comment, you weren’t paying attention, or we’re too young to understand. But one lesson in life for you…. Just because you didn’t notice something that everyone else did, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Just means you missed it. Just like you missed the colours of the flag for a good deal of your life.

      Reply
  • You need a lot more than a slim majority to vote yes to reunification to make it work. It would be a recipe for disaster.

    Would the Republic get to vote on if we want them or not? I’m not sure if faced with the reality of the situation that we’d choose yes. The inevitable increase in violence(just look at what’s happening cause of changing the day a flag flies) and the fact that the UK pumps huge amounts of money into northern Ireland every year and would cost us a fortune are two reasons that I would probably vote No if asked at the moment.

    Reply
    • The UK subvention is 5 billion a year (bank bailout alone was 80 bilion, thats 16 years of a united ireland if nothing improved economically). Furthermore the savings from a united ireland would be significant not least the removal of the duplication of public services on this island – particularly at the higher level of the civil service.

      I suspect that the deficit will decrease when these savings take effect. The economic arguments against reunification are not really significant – and ignore all the benefits of a unified economy.

      Reply
    • Haha have you seen the size of the civil service in the North! I don’t have time to Google it now but its huge. So unless the first thing you do after starting ruling from Dublin is announce massive job losses (I’m sure that would go down well) savings there isn’t a runner.

      You put the 8 billion payment to NI in perspective of the bailout. Look at it another way the total tax take of Ireland in 2011 was 34 billion. That means 23% of the entire income of the country would have to be used to fund the north. How many more years of cuts would it take to balance the budget if that was to happen!

      Reply
  • Sign on bridge in Cavan:
    BRITS IN

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  • I find it quite ironic that most who oppose a border poll were the same people pontificating to republicans for decades about “the will of the people “, “that politics and democracy are the only way forward”, “the people of both sides voted overwhelmingly for a democratic process” etc etc. it seems democracy is fine, ooops unless the other side looks for and succeeds in establishing equality of rights(Belfast flags issue). If you all who oppose a border poll are so certain that it would be a massive fail, then what is your fear? Why your opposition? The truth may well be that the partitionists in this state really do fear losing their political clout as in a united Ireland there would be a huge Sinn Féin party (currently second largest on the Island) and a significant unionist party( although they would find strong bedfellows in Fine Gael) and up north, well that’s obvious!! I look forward to a border poll and watching the partitionists in particular squirm as they try to wriggle out of their stated “aspiration” for a united Ireland. I’m for a new republic, not clones of the failed 26 and 6 states.

    Reply
  • Why would anyone in their right mind want to Vote to join the irish republic.
    Im irish and i would not vote to join this banana republic….

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  • Oh we could afford that alright… :-/

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  • More nonsense from the shinners

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  • Bruce 23/01/13 #

    Dangerous and divisive.

    The next number of years is littered with significant anniversaries for various factions on this Island.

    SF are fanning the flames of nationalism. Ironically just like the British PM. An unlikely alliance. …. or not!

    Reply
  • Why can’t Northern Ireland become ONE country and ONE people. As a southern Irishman I don’t care about the north and I feel that most of the UK don’t care about them either so let go of the Irishness and Britishness and become one. And be proud of of being Northern Irish.

    Reply
    • There is no economy for a start….

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    • sean 23/01/13 #

      And there’s a thriving economy in the south , ??????????????
      We are in the greatest mess ever, the laughing stock of the world , and want to add more , would those from the north like to join and be saddles with debt , lose there free health care etc etc etc ………………only an idiot would want to join

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    • Lets do some basic maths.North=NOTHING South=SOMETHING.I think you can agree something is more than nothing.

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    • I take it reunification within the union of GB is out of the question.

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    • One of the best comments on here.

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    • http://www.arcofprosperity.org/irvine-welsh-better-together-yes-certainly-but-better-independent-and-free-together/

      “Bella Caledonia has today published an original article by Irvine Welsh (of Trainspotting fame).
      It’s a very thoughtful piece by a writer who has spent a long time in England, and I strongly recommend reading the whole thing.
      Here are a few bits that struck a chord with me:

      [The British] state has stopped England from pursuing its main mission, namely to build a inclusive, post-imperial, multi-racial society, by forcing it to engage with the totally irrelevant (from an English perspective) distractions of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. From the viewpoint of the Scots, it has foisted thirty-five years of a destructive neo-liberalism upon us, and prevented us from becoming the European social democracy we are politically inclined to be.

      [...]

      The idea of the political independence of England and Scotland leading to conflict, hatred and distrust is the mindset of opportunistic status-quo fearmongers and gloomy nationalist fantasists stuck in a Bannockburn-Culloden timewarp, and deeply insulting to the people of both countries. Swedes, Norwegians and Danes remain on amicable terms; they trade, co-operate and visit each other socially any time they like. They don’t need a pompous, blustering state called Scandinavia, informing them from Stockholm how wonderful they all are, but (kind of) only really meaning Sweden.

      [...]

      The Union Jack is the increasingly shrinking fig leaf that strives to cover the growth of an English nationalism and consciousness, which is visible in almost every aspect of life in these islands over the last thirty years. And that, in a post-imperial world, is how it should be, and probably how it has to be. The problem that the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish have to face, is that they have no place at this party, and neither should they: it just isn’t a great deal to do with them.
      It’s a very powerful article, and even more so because Irvine Welsh knows England so well. As he concludes: “Better together? Yes, certainly, but better independent and free together.”

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    • Irvine Welsh on ‘Scottish Independence and British Unity’
      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/01/10/irvine-welsh-on-scottish-independence-and-british-unity/

      Reply
  • It’s our country and the Brits have no right being there, its another fine mess that the Catholic Church has made , anyone who wants to be British can move we won’t try and keep them here !!!

    Reply
    • Mjhint 23/01/13 #

      Oh dear. History class for you.

      Reply
    • The Pope Who Gave Ireland to the English

      By Joseph E. Gannon
      Managing Editor / TheWildGeese.com

      Pope Adrian IV
      On Dec. 3, 1154, the day after the death of Pope Anastasius IV, the freshly gathered conclave of cardinals unanimously elected the Bishop of Albano as Anastasius’ successor. The bishop of this Italian see, 25 miles southwest of Rome, was not Italian, though. His name was Nicholas Breakspear. The new pope had been born 54 years earlier in or near St. Alban’s, in the county of Hertfordshire, England, where he was given the name Nicholas by his commoner father, Robert Breakspear,. Nicholas took the name Adrian IV, and to this day remains the only English-born Pope, and, for the Irish, one of the most controversial.

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    • Mjhint 23/01/13 #

      So this whole problem is down to this one man. History says otherwise. The Irish conflicts,partition & peace are series of different events. Your narrow view creates as many problems as it solves as it takes nothing else into account. I have no time for the rcc & it has done huge amount of damage to this country but its not good enough to blame all our woes on it. That position leaves too many others unaccountable.

      Reply
  • Ya doubt there can be a poll without it been held both sides of the border. Three choices 1) become a united ireland, 2) NI becomes a seperate country 3) NI remains as is.

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  • The author’s reading of history is laughable

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  • Just quick question. If in the unlikely event of this poll taking place. Which frankly scares me we have enough problems in the republic without adding the north as well. Dose the republic have too vote as well before the partitioning can end. Because to be quiet honest. While the majority in the south will give lip service to the whole 32 county one country. For the most part mension the north in conversion. And you get exasperation,standard response, and the really strong feeling of go away. I think there. Might be a bigger problem getting it to pass vote. Down here than up in the north.

    Reply
  • We should have a poll to see how many people from the Republic of Ireland would wish to rejoin the UK.

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    • Ah yes, the troll I was expecting to see you comment on an article like this.

      Reply
    • Paddy you do a great disservice to that avatar.Back under your bridge.

      Reply
    • I’m with you there Patrick

      Reply
    • With all due respect what difference would it make if we take a eu flag or a british flag, we’d probabbly have a stronger voice ,maybe even stronger economically and politcally in generally if we merged with the uk. You could say what about our history but would that make a huge difference, in the end its just a bunch of terrorists fighting a bog.

      Reply
    • Sean the same ‘terrorists’ you refer to gave you freedom.The free state government is an utter disgrace to every single person who died for Irish freedom over the past 800 years.Dont write off your freedom because you have a government thats a bloated corrupt incompetent mess.The free state govt has as much blame (if not more) than the British do for the current mess in the north east of Ireland.

      Reply
    • @RiobairdOMaingain , people that kill innocent people are hardly freedom fighters,

      One thing comes to mind is whats the real difference between a irish man and a British man, Very little at the end of the day(800 year war so we can be exactly the same as them without a queen of course)

      Reply
    • Typical of the open minded ‘republicans’ – their way or no way. How dare anybody express an alternative viewpoint! They preach hatred and a perverted ‘history’ and they think that they could persuade Unionists to join in a united Ireland – under their terms of course. These people are totally deluded and are themselves victims of their own classical conditioning. Most ‘republicans’ have two things in common with each other 1) A belief that they can achieve their own aims through murder and mayhem and 2) An inability to view the world through the eyes of normal people. Their stock response to unpalatable facts is usually – but what about…?

      Reply
    • Welcome to the real world Sean.

      Reply
    • Gerard 23/01/13 #

      Stop using our harp Patrick the Brit

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  • Be realistic, how would all our young folk emigrating give a damm about the border or 1916 with our gov spinning news day in day out. It’s a joke and Arlene Foster is right call the bluff of S.F. Was there not a survey about 6 months ago and the surprising result was that so many Catholics in N.I. Stated that they wished to stay in U.K. Would you blame them?

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  • I think as skepticism of the EU in Ireland rises and common memory of the last union Ireland was in fades, the more people are less likely to want a united Ireland. When I say they are less likely to want it, I mean that it just isn’t worth the hassle. Even if there was a was vote in NI to leave the UK and join the republic, you would have to be an idiot to think that there would be no violence as a result.

    I mean look at how upset a lot of loyalists got over a flag being removed. Ireland has long enough experienced violence, the majority of which impacted upon innocent civilians. I think the most people are mature enough to understand that it just isn’t worth it anymore. Irish independence was about the Irish ruling themselves. It might be tough pill to swallow but we need to accept based upon history, that Irish leaders do not want to or cannot rule this country without the support of other nations. Ireland left the union with the UK and walked straight into a European one, which is some aspect is even more controlling. As someone who once held nationalistic views, I feel we would have been better off on our own, but if given no option between the EU or UK. I would rather side with the one we have more in common with culturally.

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    • If its the democratic will of the people then we shouldn’t let the 12% unionist population on the island to stand in the way of that, otherwise we are no different than Libya, Syria, Iraq, the list goes on on. We are either a democracy or were not!

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    • King Olaf the European Union hasnt murdered thousands of Irish men women and children (Cromwell comes to mind) the similarity ends with the word ‘union’

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    • Colm, while I agree with the what your are saying about the democratic will of the people and the fact that unionist only represent a small percentage of this islands entire population, I don’t see a way for the problems in the north to end with the solutions presented to us. Democracy is great and all that, but you can still end up with a situation where 51% of the voters decide what the future of the other 49% is. In a place like NI where the religious and social divisions are still well defined, this is a powder keg of a situation. Obviously in an ideal world I would like to see Ireland united again but I think the arguments for that are too emotional and don’t take into account the problems that would arise.

      Riobaird, of course the European Union hasn’t murdered any of our citizens in its short history. One of the key members though has the blood of thousands of Irishmen on its hands from two world wars its government started. I don’t hold that against the German people or the current German government. The same applies with the British. Cromwell was a monster but he was from a different time all together. Not that it lessens what he did that would be considered war crimes now. The treatment of Ireland by the British Empire should never be forgotten about but the empire is no more. Their society has changed massively compared to what it once was just under a century ago. So I don’t want the past to decide the future.

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  • Also I can happily say as from the south id vote against a united ireland as I dont think we could support them. If any ptosal for change should happen it dhould come from stormount

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    • From the south…you mean you’re Cork man? Or did you get confused and forget Ireland is made up of North, South, East and West…..not just North and South.

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    • @Tom Ireland is the official name of this republic, which comprises 26 counties. The other 6 counties are geographically on the Island of Ireland but are in a region of the UK called Northern Ireland. That a state and an island have the same name is confusing, which is what for clarity people use terms like ‘the south’, ‘the republic’, the 26 counties’ etc.

      People get their knickers in a twist about this terminology, It’s quite funny really.

      @Sean, I would not vote for a united Ireland either, for economic reasons but also because we can do without the kind of ingrained bigotry that would come with it and have a big influence on our whole political system for a very long time. I don’t think our votes in Ireland would matter a lot though in reality – all recent surveys have shown that even among Catholics in Northern Ireland it’s far from a unanimous desire.

      Reply
    • So to cut out all your padding,Ireland=Island and Ireland=State.Either way Tom is correct.I say im from Ireland refering to the Island.I think you will find that ingrained bigotry already exists in the free state,the ghosts of the civil war live on.

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    • @Katie, the 6 North eastern counties are only part of the north of Ireland, I suppose Donegal is in the south too?
      Or Cavan? Or what about Monaghan? All of which are part of the original 9 county Ulster.

      The 6 counties currently occupied and administered by the British is not Ulster in entirety but only part of Ulster, just as it is not “Northern Ireland” more precisely it is the North east of Ireland.

      I was born in an Ireland that was 32 counties at least in claim as such Ireland will always be 32 counties in my mind, regardless of the revisionist spin and waffle that we are bombarded with.

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    • And regardless of the expressed democratic consent of the people in 1998 to give legitimacy to the NI’s place in the UK.

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    • @Jason, what we had in 1998 was a partitioned vote based on spin and waffle, articles 2 and 3 of our constitution didn’t feature in any debate, the vote was put across as a “vote for peace” in other words if you voted against it you were voting for violence, a typical manipulation technique used by the gombeens in Leinster house time and time again. “Yes to Lisbon is a Yes to jobs” ring any bells?

      FF, FG, LP have been partitionist since their inception, it’s no surprise they pushed for a partitionist policy such as the GFA.

      It is worth noting that a re-united Ireland would significantly change the status quo of the Irish political scene, the Unionists would have a significant political impact on voting and power in a 32 county Ireland.
      To think this doesn’t scare the gombeens in Leinster house is akin to burying your head in the sand.

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    • Well said!

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  • sean 23/01/13 #

    The current 26 counties of this banana republic are in such a mess , and will take decades to fix under the current political system , so adding another 6 counties to the mess , will only make things 10 times worse , both north and south need to sort there shot out before we even consider voting ………….patriotism my arse , this must be about economics and be benefical to everyone .
    So me I,d vote a big fat NO

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    • Quite the opposite sean 32 county reunification will bring about democracy for the first time in this country

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    • sean 23/01/13 #

      Really Eamonn , please enlighten me to how exactly it would bring democracy ?

      The norths politicans would probably be glad to join the planet fail eireann and the lavish lifestyle it will bring them , so that’s them sorted , but how will it benefit the people , domecratically and economically ?

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    • Colin C 23/01/13 #

      Why Eamonn? Is it more democratic to force 900 thousand Protestants into a state thy don’t want to be in than to force 700,000 Catholics to do the same? Assuming that catholics are all unhappy in the UK which is clearly not the case. Without repArtition, the current status quo actually keeps most people in the jurisdiction they want to be in. Hardly Undemocratic, is it.

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    • Colin you have gone off on a tangent,nobody said anything about forcing anybody to do anything.The topic is a border poll and unification based upon the democratic passing of such a bill.

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    • @Colin C, how is it democratic for a minority in Ireland (Unionists) to threaten war against the Majority (Nationalists) unless they get their own way?
      Because that is exactly how partition came about, the Brits took the 6 most densely unionist populated counties and drew an artificial line around them, creating an artificial gerrymandered state, against the will of the majority on the Island.

      How the hell is that democratic or morally right in any way?

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    • Colin C 23/01/13 #

      It’s not democratic, but it’s a 100 year old argument. You cannot simply ignore the existence of a huge unionist population who have a distinct identity that does not fit the Gaelic catholic Ireland that many nationalist leaders were trying to build. Ultimately all borders are imaginary lines we draw in our heads. Ireland has no more natural right to unity than Hispanola/Haiti/Dominica. There are two peoples on this island with diverging national identities and short of ethnic cleansing that is not going to change. Repartition is the only other possibility if Northern Ireland fails as a state.

      We have to leave irredentism behind in the same way the Germans have given up on their former eastern territories, the poles have given up on their territories now in the Ukraine etc etc. territorial nationalism and irredentism has given Europe nothing but death and bloodshed, and rarely has it resulted in any great glorious days.

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    • Colin C 23/01/13 #

      And Tom, I do believe there was a treaty or something about that.

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    • @Colin,

      the fact you brought religion into it shows you dont really know what you’re talking about and appear to have been educated by the media.
      The problems surrounding partition have nothing to do with religion, I myself am not a Catholic yet I am a Republican.

      The main cause of all division in Ireland is and was British occupation of Ireland.
      People from a Unionist background are ancestrally British but they are Irish by birth,, the majority of people in England, Scotland and Wales would consider these Unionists to be Irish, it appears the only people who think they are British is themselves.

      Besides that, since when did a minority point of view ever justify a position that was and is against the expressed will of the majority? It is not a 100 year old problem as you claim because (correct me if I’m wrong) aren’t there still 5000 British troops based in the north east of Ireland?
      isn’t there still an artificial border surrounding 6 of the 9 counties of Ulster?
      What about the significant number of Nationalists who live in the 6 counties? Why are their wishes ignored because they are a minority yet another minority within the majority can hold the entire Nation to ransom?
      Can you not see the huge flaw in your argument, it is illogical and unjust.

      In regards to the treaty, yes there was a treaty but that treaty is technically null and void since it was entered into under duress (threat of war) that treaty wouldn’t be accepted Today as it contradicts the UN charters and goes against international law. Therefore it is worthless and nothing but an injustice that was forced upon the Irish people.

      I am not an advocate for violence as I think any use of violence to re-unite Ireland would be futile and pointless, that strategy was tried already and brought as far as it could go, but that doesn’t mean the strategy that follwed was the right one. The political war should have been intensified and brought forward instead of what we have now, Provisional Sinn Fein paying lip service to Nationalism.

      Both Nationalists and Unionists need to rid themselves of their individual cloaks of ignorance and realise that both Westminster and Leinster house have sold us all out, Unionist and Nationalist alike, they have set us against each other lest we unite as a people and shrug both of them off our back in order to pursue a trule representative Nation of Ireland for all creeds of our native people.

      If we could unite as a people Nationalist and Unionist and forget about the truly meaningless associations and loyalties to those who have no loyalty to us we could forge a brighter more inclusive and stronger society for our future generations. This people on both sides of this divide are here in Ireland now and both have a long history on this island, neither of us are going any where so maybe it’s about time we learned to live together with mutual respect and solidarity.

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    • Colin C 24/01/13 #

      Tom, vast majority of northern Protestants are unionists. Looks like a good deal of Catholics are too. That’s the reality. The border is a reality. I would like to see a united Ireland but I don’t see it happening without effective ethnic cleansing. Whining about a border drawn 100 years ago is not going to help. Saying it wasn’t fair isn’t going to help. Northern unionists exist and I cannot see them embracing an Irish non-British identity any time soon. This island was partitioned because nationalists pretended that the northern unionist community didn’t really exist, and that reality continues to be ignored by them today.

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