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Dublin: 10 °C Saturday 18 May, 2013

Column: Taxing the wealthy is an option we need to look at

High earners and corporations – should they not ‘share the burden’ with the rest of us, asks Kieran Allen.

Kieran Allen

Earlier this month, Junior Finance Minister Brian Hayes stated that the Government had reached the limit on tax increases. His statement angered many Labour TDs and ministers, who said to say such a thing was premature.

‘ENDGAME’ HAS BECOME the latest motif of the Government’s spin doctors. We’ve done 85 per cent of the work, proclaims Eamon Gilmore, implying there is just a little more austerity to go. We reached ‘virtually the end’ on income tax rises, echoes junior Minister Brian Hayes, suggesting that we now concentrate on cutbacks.

The government’s end game refers to a return to the bond markets and the departure of the Troika. But it doesn’t mean an end to the policies of austerity or ‘structural reforms’. Future governments will continue to sell off state assets, slash lone parent benefit, increase student fees. It will be more of the same. The only difference is that our own masters will answer directly to that anonymous force known as ‘The Markets’.
The fanciful endgame propaganda is a response to the rising mood of rebellion. But it does not stack up and Brian Hayes’s argument on income tax shows why.

No more

If he simply meant that there should be no more taxes on low and middle income earners, few would disagree. In fact, we might go further. The Universal Social Charge that was imposed on those earning under €40,000, was a particular short sighted move because it reduced demand in the domestic economy and so helped to cut jobs. It should be abolished and the USC rate for those earning between €40,000 and €70,000 should be halved.

These measures would mean a loss of revenue of €2.5 billion. But the same amount of money could be raised by increasing income tax on those earning over €100,000. The United Left Alliance’s pre-Budget submission argued for effective tax rate of between 37 per cent and 60 per cent for this category, depending on whether they fall near the €100,000 mark or the €1 million a year mark.

So it is not about a limit on income taxes – the real issue is shifting the burden from low and middle earners to those on super-salaries.
In support of his argument, Hayes claimed that 40 percent of all our taxes come from income. But does this not imply that we should seek other forms of revenue that are not based on income?  Taxes on speculation, profits and wealth, maybe?

Options

Despite the valiant efforts of the Labour MEP Nessa Childers, there has been little focus on the government’s failure to implement an EU Commission proposal for a financial transactions tax. This suggested a tiny 0.01 per cent levy on derivative contracts and a 0.1 per cent on transaction in shares and bonds. It would raise between €500 and €700 million a year in Ireland and so there would be no need for a property tax.

‘But it will scare away jobs’ screams the chorus of politicians, media hacks and stockbroker economists. Strangely, we never hear how many jobs will go and from where  are they most likely to disappear.

This is because no detailed risk assessment was done. There was no cost-benefit analysis on whether the €500 -€700 million that might accrue in taxes outweighed the small amount of jobs losses – if indeed there were to be any. The government simply took the word of the IFSC Clearing House Group composed of the companies involved in financial speculation and did what they were told. Nothing.

Brian Hayes might also look at the sacred cow of corporation taxes. Most of the giant companies operating in Ireland do not effectively pay the official 12.5 per cent corporation profit rate. Take GE Capital Aviation Funding, for example, which is involved in aircraft leasing. Last year it made profits of $765 million, making it one of the most profitable companies in the state. But it only paid $379,000 in tax – which amounts to a tax rate of 0.5 per cent.

Corporation tax

Starbucks is another fine example. Starbucks has been operating in Ireland since 2005 but its total tax bill since then has come to a mere €35,000. In other words, it contributed less to the Irish exchequer than one middle income PAYE worker.

GE Capital Aviation Funding and Starbucks are not exceptions.  Ireland has branded itself as a global tax haven for the rich – and so its people must bear the main burden for funding the state. Figures from the most recently published Revenue Commissioners report for 2010 show how it works.

Corporation Tax for Accounting Period 2008 in €million:

table

The Revenue is notified of trading profits of €65 billion. Yet it only receives a mere €3.9 billion in tax. This represents an effective tax rate of six percent. In other words, companies pay less than half the official tax rate.

Second, the allowances which enable companies to reduce their taxable income amounts to MORE than the actual profits declared. This absurd situation arises because Irish tax law is extraordinary generous to corporations. If the losses are not used in one year, for example, they can be carried over to another. If one subsidiary of a corporation makes a loss, another subsidiary can write them off against its taxable income. And so on.

If Brian Hayes is so concerned with taxes on income, maybe his government could look at taking more from global corporations. After all, must we not all ‘share the burden’?

Kieran Allen is a Senior Lecturer in Sociology in University College Dublin. He is the author of Ireland’s Economic Crash (Dublin: Liffey Press 2009) To read more by Kieran Allen for TheJournal.ie click here.

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Comments (141 Comments)

  • Tax Bono

    Reply
    • Can’t he’s a tax exile in holland

      Reply
    • In Holland, all cash deposits over 40k are taxed at 2% a year. They view cash as unproductive use, it should be invested or circulating in the economy. Just imagine if that was brought in here, there would be blood on the streets.

      Better to let that to Dutch and the Finns with their lefty ideals and 5% unemployment low debt. They can bail us out again and again but they shall never force us to have a normal tax policy. They shall never force us to change our economic model that has brought such economic success over decades.

      Vote FG/FF – Lets keep things the same.

      Reply
    • Bono’s hot dog stands in Amsterdam are a roaring success!

      Reply
    • take his Irish citizenship from Bono and any other tax exiles so!!

      Reply
    • Stephen, that’s absurd. Money on deposit in a bank is used to gvie loans to people to buy things that help the economy and to business people to expand. What do you think the banks do with deposit accounts? Stick it in their safe?

      Reply
    • They think that our tax policies are absurd, they do not understand our poor public services or out nearly 15% unemployment and mass emigration. They think that we are economically absurd and who can blame them.

      The law has changed since I last looked, its harder for more people at this stage.

      “There is a flat tax on the total value of the savings and investments of 1.2% per year. It is nominally part of the income tax, as a 30% tax on a fixed assumed yield of 4% of the value of the assets (this is regardless of the actual income from the assets). EUR 21,139 (2012; higher for 65+ with a low income) of the value of the assets is exempted”.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_Netherlands#Flat_tax_on_savings_and_investments_.28box_3.29

      but carry on Willie Grogan and fight those that have successful economies, long as you don’t have to change your views, i’m sure that people will be happy to continue our economic collapse.

      Reply
    • Steven, our economy and the Dutch have similar problems. We have much better potential.

      I was pointing that this comment of yours was absurd, “They view cash as unproductive use, it should be invested or circulating in the economy.”

      Your reply ignored the points I made and went off on a tangent….and my name isn’t Willie.

      Reply
    • @stephen are you serious or am I misreading you. All these people who have saved money after paying taxes and then doing with out so they could put money by for old age, or college funds or a deposit for a house or whatever and you are saying tax them again…

      Reply
    • The “double Irish” scheme seriously needs to be reviewed by the Irish government. Oh wait, Fine Gael don’t want to do that. Kenny would prefer to hit the vulnerable in society.

      Reply
    • Isnt he the prefect examaple of why this proposal cant work

      Reply
    • Bono is NOT a tax exile He pays vast sums in tax here. ONE company, associated with U2, is based in Holland.

      Reply
  • Would certainly mean higher earning civil servants paying their share,

    Reply
    • All Civil Servants are PAYE workers and so have no choice but to pay all the tax they are due to, it’s deducted at source. If you are talking about cutting their salaries then I think most of us would agree to that but to suggest that they are not paying the tax due on their existing salaries then you are being disingenuous at best.

      Reply
    • Joseph

      I don’t think that’s what shay meant. But both your comments represent the mistake that most people are making – and being led to that by the ad nauseam mainstream narrative.

      That is, chasing the mice (& arguing over it) while the elephants trash the house. What am I talking about?

      Unemployment. Rather more specifically the LOSS in real wealth, real goods & services, the basis of our standard of living NOT BEING PRODUCED.

      Chucking away around 10% of our GDP/GNP – around €15 billion worth of production each year, every year.

      This is the real waste. And there is no reason for it to happen, aside from the vested interests of the ruling elites in keeping a system which, by design, flows ever increasing wealth to the top few percent.

      This is the result of the Neoliberalism of the last 3 decades. The increasing share of productivity gains going to the top few percent, at the expense of returns to labour, is there, writ large, in the data for all to see.

      Neoliberalism is not stable. It produces frequent ‘pyramid’ or ‘ponzi’ booms & busts. The top win always, the rest lose.

      Neoliberalism inherently causes high & persistent unemployment – even in the ‘boom’ periods, the lack of jobs is 2 or 3 times that of the post WWII period up to the 1970s in most ‘western’ countries. It contains a bogus concept (one of many) which is virtually a ‘taboo’ subject in the mainstream of media and economics – the ‘natural rate of unemployment’.

      Of course, because there is in reality no such thing – it is entirely man-made – the authorities will not tell you what ‘rate’ that is. It changes to suit the elites of the time. However, in the US they have just let the present ‘cat out of the bag’ by announcing that Fed (central bank) interest rate policy will only change (from low to increasing) when (official) unemployment comes down to 6.5%. So there you have it – their new ‘natural’ rate of jobs shortage is 6.5%. At that point they will start to kill growth. In reality, given the under estimation of people wanting work in official figures, it’s probably 10%.

      There’;s probably a very similar (but ‘taboo’) figure for Europe. At the same time as calling people without jobs ‘shirkers’ & all the rest, they are using an economics ideology (shouldn’t dignify it as a ‘theory’) that means that there will be no job available for 1 in 10 people, able & willing to work.

      Oh, and at the same time, they use economics theory & ‘models’ which at the same time require the assumption that ALL unemployment is ‘voluntary’. That’s right, redundancy does not exist on planet Neoliberal – you’re just taking a holiday.

      Some Cognitive Dissonance in there?

      Yep. Welcome to the world of Neoliberal economics that has captured the entire mainstream over the last 3 decades – pure ideological bullsh1t. But do note that most economists work for the finance sector – and those that don’t often have ‘consultancy’, ‘grants’ or some other financial ties to it & the world of wealthy elites at its centre. Maybe some connection there?

      Never heard of all this? You’re not meant to! Nor are you meant to realise that there is no ‘shortage’ of money, or even need for governments that use a fiat, free-floating currency, like we do, to ‘borrow’ from anywhere in order to spend. (Doesn’t mean spend without constraint – the constraint is inflation. Just means ‘borrowing’ isn’t required by any authority that issues currency (fiat etc.). With such high unemployment there is no inflation risk from hiring them. )

      Spending is what we’re short of – by definition – when there are not enough jobs. Spending is always someone else’s income. (So long as that spending is not on the speculative gambling purchases of unproductive assets….need a bit prudent regulation of the finance ‘markets’ eh? – that we once had…)

      When the private sector will not, or cannot, spend – households in debt & being income squeezed, business not interested in investing for growth because households aren’t spending – that only leaves one sector that can kickstart the virtuous cycle of {spending>income/jobs>more spending>more income/jobs}……

      Yep, the government sector! Which has the added advantage of being the monopoly issuer of the currency – so is +always+ able to do so…. providing it’s not ‘captured’ by the top few percent & ignoring the interests of the majority.

      Well, ok, the Eurozone countries share a fiat currency & common central bank – but the principles are the same, it just requires more ‘politics’ than UK, US etc. to agree the policy.

      The conclusion of all this? (Well done if you’re still reading ;) )

      The banking pyramid/bust was man-made, and the recession and lack of jobs is also man-made. By means of the same bogus, vested interest driven Neoliberal economics ideology. Much the same people that created this over the last 3 decades are still in charge now.

      So forget the ‘mice’ for now eh?

      Let’s see to the elephants….

      Reply
    • Michael 17/01/13 #

      Tl;dr?

      This is all intentional, Bernie Maydoff would be proud

      Reply
    • @ Mike Hall

      Taxes on the top 10 per cent are at a 25 year low. Since the 1980′s, taxes on the rich have been falling due to:

      - tax breaks
      - tax rebates (e.g. on company cars)
      - tax anomalies (the so called “double Irish”)

      Wealthy must pay their fair share of taxes which are at a 25 year low.

      Reply
    • Mark Dalt

      I would essentially agree with you, but my point is this – taxation is mainly about distribution. Taking money from somewhere in the economy to somewhere else does not achieve the increase in aggregate spending which is the +only+ thing that will create jobs.

      It’s true that the wealthy spend less of their marginal income (& probably less, domestically) than lower income earners, so taxing them rather than reducing income to others might increase aggregate spending overall & help increase employment, but the effect is small.

      What we really need is to make the whole pie bigger at this point, not argue endlessly about how a smaller & decreasing pie is divvied up. Wasting nearly 1 in 5 (likely ‘real’ figures) of our available workforce in enforced idleness, with some bullsh1t story that there is no ‘fiat’ money to invest in hiring them, has to be the most stupid thing we could ever do.

      But the people in power could care less. Putting ordinary people under stress, reducing the services we need for our wellbeing, is a deliberate tactic by the rich to keep themselves in a position of power & privilege they do not deserve. ‘Deliberate’ here can mean two things – some know full well the results of their policies, others are just content to go along with whatever keeps their comfortable staus quo.

      Mark, what you really +must+ understand is that +macro+ economics is +not+ household economics, but profoundly different. As is the functioning of ‘money’ at the macro level too.

      For four decades after Keynes won the argument in the 1930s that macro is +not+ simply micro economics writ larger, most everyone knew and accepted this truth. Eighty years on, after another financial crisis similar to the 1930s following 40 years of neoliberalism rolling back all the safeguards put in place then, we are back in the same mess that existed before the 1929 crash, with the same vested interests screwing us (banks & the finance sector & their ‘useful idiots’) .

      Citizens should be demanding answers & mass resignations from those responsible – who are still in charge and making matters worse.

      Until citizens learn this & realise the vested interests that are behind the maintenance of their ignorance, life is only going to get worse – for all except the top few percent that is.

      Reply
  • It is what all the countries that are bailing us out and the ones in Europe that are still growing do. Yet we will listen to the media and pundits of Britain and America and their economic mode both states only surviving thanks to massive money creation out of thin air and in America’s case a commitment to open ended printing and for all that they still tax business and high earners an awful lot more than we do

    Not a Socialist by any means but society here seems to be about a select few having most of their wealth untaxed while the plebs carry the load. It doesn’t work anywhere else while do people think that it will work here.

    Ideas like Allen’s are about moving us towards a more normal tax position but will be greeted by some as if he was calling for a Bolshevik take over.

    Reply
  • peter 17/01/13 #

    Lets hope the government read this as it makes sense to to implement the 12.5% corporation tax which would bring in an extra €4 billion. Starbucks paid €35,000 in tax in 7yrs, that is really annoying.

    Reply
  • the corporation tax rate is applied to Irish companies only, foreign companies avail of special breaks, they don’t come here for our effective rate but come instead to avoid tax altogether,
    Maybe that’s as it should be , maybe not, it’s a long winded argument

    Reply
  • “should they [the high earners] not ‘share the burden’ with the rest of us”

    That doesn’t even make sense. They already pay tax on all of their earnings, do they not? For every extra €100 they make, they already pay almost half of it in PAYE & USC. How is that not “sharing the burden”? Are who are “the rest of us”? Speak for yourself. Are you actually trying to say that the people who already pay more tax than you are somehow not “sharing the burden”?

    Reply
    • Sean high earners 3 good reasons to tax then more
      1 civil servants , received higher percentage pay increases at the top under bench marking , yes I think they should pay more now
      2 increasing tax rates will catch some
      of the bonus payments to top bankers
      3 payments being made to property developers by Nama will be taxed at a higher rate too

      Reply
    • 1. That’s a point about whether or not civil servants should get pay increases – not rates of taxation.
      2. Shouldn’t those bonuses be taxable already? I assumed they were. And if they’re not (which I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt on – because I can’t possibly see how these bonuses could be tax free), then you’re making a point about a tax loophole – not rates of taxation.
      3. See point 2. You’re making another point about a tax loophole – not rates of taxation.

      So you have given Zero reasons as to why higher earners should be taxed more.

      Reply
    • The answer is, Sean, that there’s a good percentage of the population of this country who want to do nothing other than sit on their entitled arses all day and come up with all kinds of rationale as to why other people (the rich/the patriarchy/the high earners) should pay for them.

      Lefty politicians and commentators generally play to this crowd. Example: “stealing” from welfare recipients. Did I miss something in English class? When does giving less equate to stealing?

      Reply
    • @ the lost lenore – I agree.

      I’m not a high earner. But my whole point is that if I paid €15k in PAYE & USC in 2012, how the fook can I say to someone who paid €80k that they should pay more and “share the burden”. They’re sharing 5 times the burden than I am, FFS!
      It makes no logical sense to me. It’d be like James Corden telling Usain Bolt to “hurry the f*ck up and do your bit!” in a relay race. He’s running 5 times faster than you already, dumba*s!

      Reply
    • We know it makes no sense but its what people like to hear. The likes of the ULA have got cushy numbers telling people what they like to hear while deep down knowing full well none of this stuff has a hope in hell of being implemented.

      Reply
    • The Wealthy can afford to put money into tax breaks or avail of tax reducing measures that an ordinary person cannot because they have no “surpus” income. One point always ignored is that Western Governments , particularly Ireland , are over – governed and over taxed – period ! We need to roll back both the powers of the State and it’sa need for Revenue which is voracious and unending.

      Reply
    • You’re looking at numbers and not at the actual quality of life of these people. If you forget about money for a second and think about who’s actually being impacted, most of those earning that amount would not take a significant drop in living standards by being taxed more heavily. The working and lower middle class would.

      They pay more because they can afford to, and reap the benefits of being in that higher class of living.

      Also, countries with more progressive tax codes tend to have better social mobility as well.

      I think your agreement with the lost lenore’s unforgivable idiocy shows there is little reasoning with you though. The idea that people only want to tax the rich because they’re lazy bums who sit around all day – a malicious, dishonest argument that attempts to erase the real lived experiences of those struggling to make ends meet beacuse of the recession, those out of work because of the recession, and the disabled who have lost funding from services that help them back into work.

      There needs to be a point at which we hold people responsible for their views and considered bad people if they keep shovelling this shit. What you’re saying is both factually incorrect and socially irresponsible. Stigmatising the poor and left wing politics allows the government to get away with broken austerity policies without question.

      You are part of the problem.

      Reply
  • The very wealthy (those earning in the millions – NOT people with a BMW and a shoebox in Stepaside who like to think they’re wealthy) think that they are beyond tax. They consider the ordinary average earners are there to pay tax and pay for state services for the general population. The very wealthy lobby government and pressure politicians to keep them wealthy true tax breaks and subsidies for certain industries and wealth holdings. And then they lobby them to make people work for free for the companies (jobbridge) and they bring people to court for the slightest reason.

    Reply
  • One major flaw in the ULA’s proposal. There is practically no one in this state on a PAYE salary of a million a year. Also, it works on the basis that people will continue to work the same amount at the higher tax rate – not all of them will. For example, I stopped doing overtime as the with the combined 55%-odd tax on it I figured my ass was better off in front of a Playstation. So instead of a reasonable 30% of something, the state gets 55% of nothing.

    Lefties need to get this – I don’t owe you a living. I don’t want to pay for other people to have children. I’ll happily support health services for all and a basic warfare but beyond that you’re on your own.

    Reply
    • Warfare=welfare. Although I reckon we could probably take Iceland since everyone thinks they’re so marvellous.

      Reply
    • Lenore, you quitting overtime may have resulted in someone else being employed to fill the void, therefore no tax lost to the state,
      Other than that it’s hard to disagree with you

      Reply
    • “Lefties need to get this – I don’t owe you a living. I don’t want to pay for other people to have children. I’ll happily support health services for all and a basic warfare but beyond that you’re on your own.”

      What bothers me is when you try to sound world-wise when you will use blatantly ignorant and incorrect arguments to back your corner, like accusing anyone of wanting to raise taxes of being “lazy bums” – ad hominem argument that means you don’t have to engage the actual argument.

      I would explain to you the concepts behind social mobility and social contract and how higher earners don’t necessarily *earn* what they’re paid, but if you write me of as a dumb lefty there’s no real point.

      It would be a more apt character judgement to say that right wing libertarianism and the like is a sociopathic ideology, because it is, and those who follow it, especially those who “make it to the top” are more likely to be sociopaths.

      Reply
    • When you live in a world with other people, your presence and what you do with it has an effect on them. You cannot simply say it’s a case of you being expected to “Owe” other people a living, because a lot of wealthy people are effectively parasites in the first place. You wouldn’t focus on that because you violently reject the idea of doing the right thing, that a world were less people are hurt and more helped is a better one. Your ideology is founded in greed, malice and privilege.

      Reply
    • “right wing libertarianism and the like is a sociopathic ideology”
      got any sort of evidence, theoretical or otherwise, for that wild accusation Leigh?
      And how is an ideology that promotes the idea of everyone getting to keep what they earn full of ‘greed, malice and privilege’ while one that wants to take what other people have, is not?

      Reply
    • Tim, because one results in poor people dying on the streets far more than the other. The fact that you don’t even mention that, and reduce it to “Keeping what you earn” is testament to the vast intellectual dishonesty and lack of empathy that is characteristic of most “libertarians”.

      You do not have a better system if more people end up suffering as a result. End of.

      Reply
    • the lost mind:

      A hate-based policy won’t work and No government would strive for class warfare. Wealthy must pay their fair share of taxes which are at a 25 year low.

      Reply
    • In which libertarian paradise are poor people dying on the streets, from which you draw your data? that’s right, none. The only countries where people are starving are those ravaged by war or man-made poverty through socialistic or nationalistic scheming. If you want to present someone’s ideas as evil it helps to root the claim in actual reality. I don’t claim to know what ideology you hold but it’s hard to base any kind of economic system on a human emotion like ‘empathy’.

      Reply
  • Dear Mr Allen,

    What business did you set up recently? How much corporation tax did you pay? What are your total number of employees? How were your exports last year? How much employers PRSI did you pay? Do your employees have private medical cover?? Did you make pension contributions on their behalf? Did your rates go up last year……….

    The academic ivory tower has some of the best views of Ireland you know.

    Reply
    • The irony is that he himself paid less PAYE & USC last year than the very people he is saying should “share the burden”.
      Academics – lots of reading and “in theory” opinions, but no actual experience or getting their hands dirty in the world of business. More irony; they lecture about something they have only read about themselves.

      Reply
    • Exactly.

      Let Mr. Allen carry his economic model to Holland or Finland or Germany where they practice a lot of what he preaches. We’ll stick to our tried and tested policies that have made us a Global economic news story. We can teach them on how to run an economy.

      Reply
    • “The irony is that he himself paid less PAYE & USC last year than the very people he is saying should “share the burden”.”

      This nonsense is inherently dishonest since the problem is that if we don’t tax higher earners, we inflict a lower quality of life – sometimes drastically lower – on the poor. It might not be desirable, but it’s vastly *preferable* to tax higher earners as it makes more economic and moral sense. When you’re approaching it from a position of let’s face it, absolute zero in terms of morals, and fanboyish towards austrian or chicago school policy – it’s not surprising many on the right don’t get that.

      The scale of wealth isn’t linear which is why the best countries in the world don’t tax it that way either.

      Reply
  • Of course, no one’s mentioning that

    A: This is exactly what the other EU nations want us to do, so they can get the companies we have here to settle on the continent instead.

    B: It would remove the main reason many of those companies choose to come here. What we gained from directly taxing them would be lost again as they pulled out of Ireland, leaving us with less taxes in overall & a higher unemployment rate.

    Reply
    • Agreed Colm, we’re an island nation that has to make itself attractive to multi nationals in some way, corporation tax is the most appealing to them, however I do believe high earners should be squeezed a bit more, not to the point that they up roots, but the biggest savings should be made with the high earning public servants

      Reply
    • Colm that’d an argument against taxing Companies at all, which is why they don’t pay tax anywhere if multinational,

      It’s taxing our own people earning over 100.000€ a year , catching people who many feel are overpaid, bankers civil servants politicians etc and making sure their allowances are included

      Reply
    • So, not alone are we prostitutes, we are broken-down, cheap prostitutes.

      Reply
    • *butts in*
      While there are people on this island who don’t contribute towards tax take at all we should not be touching either companies or higher end earners.
      It’s a general fact: the less you earn the more likely you are to end up depending on state services. Higher end earners are more unlikely to claim benefits, get college grants, medical cards etc., and are more unlikely to claim social welfare for long periods of time.
      Tax is unfair against those who contribute majorly as they are unlikely to see much of a return on their investment.
      I’m not saying tax everything to the hilt, but 50c in the €100 is I would think a good starting point. Not enough people are paying tax, widen the base, because no matter how much you widen the top – it’s still going to be a pyramid. Make it all inclusive, if you earn anything, you should be contributing to your society in the same way as everyone else. In this day and age I think that’s the least anyone can expect.

      Reply
    • James, you personally may not receive any benefit directly from paying your tax, but your siblings, cousins , parents, friends may, and if not so what, do you really want to return to the days when no social welfare was available

      Reply
    • Hi Shay, I’m aware of this, I didn’t suggest cutting SW. I merely suggested getting everyone, regardless of what they’re earning, and tax a minimum of 50c in the €100 on their income.

      Reply
    • Colm. You’re suggesting that encouraging foreign companies to come to Ireland has been a great success. That being the case, why do we have so many people unemployed? Isn’t it time we started looking after ourselves! What kind of country are we, when we depend on foreigners to provide us with an income? We should be investing in our own manufacturing Industry. Just look at how much gas and oil wealth we could produce, if we only hade a government with the courage to invest in it. This giving huge grants and tax breaks to foreign companies is a complete scam. Has anyone ever actually worked out how much these jobs cost? Hey are we not an educated race after all?

      Reply
    • Colm. The people working in the companies that move to Europe will be paying significantly higher income tax, significantly higher property, dirt and capital taxes. The companies will be paying significantly higher corporate tax.

      When the economic model that we employ has been shown to lead to massive disaster again and again. Can we really knock articles like this, when all the countries that are bailing us out have tax policies that are close to it.

      Reality is knocking hard on our door.

      Reply
    • Taxing higher earners wouldn’t discourage business much overall. Not every rich person is a business owner after all, and not every business owner is rich. Taxing lower earners is more likely to do it as you’re taking more money out of the economy where it’s more likely to be spent immediately.

      It’s the economy that creates jobs, not “rich people”. People cling to this idea even after it’s been disproved the fact that the US still had to deal with unemployment with effective and actual tax rates on the rich on an all time low – it’s much the same in other countries too.

      Rich people don’t automatically earn what they get. This is reliant on a superstitious belief in the Invisible Hand and similar concepts. Social Welfare in normal times is a relatively low amount to pay to ensure that people have a decent safety net, higher/more serviceable rates also prevents people from running into the first job they can get which is a terrible use of human resources. Whereas many of the rich suck far more out of the economy – it’s inappropriate to talk about the supposed laziness of the poor when we’re in a recession caused by the rich.

      Reply
    • James tax the dam wealthy I work in Dunnes earning 15000 I’m paying same USC on ones earning 100000 tax the bloody wealthy for a change not anyone

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    • Colm:

      Companies would not “settle on the continent” just because of a modest increase in taxes which still makes Ireland one of the lowest taxed countries in western Europe. Also, shouldn’t we be creating our indigenous industry? Instead of depending on diktats being imposed from some corporations regarding our taxes, we should be de-regulating the increasingly bloated bureaucracy on Taxi licensing, simplify getting a drivers license, bus licensing, licensing costs, etc.

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    • We should be taxing social welfare. Someone on welfare can make several hundred a week between the dole, child benefit, medical cards, rent allowance etc. yet someone who works 30hrs/week at minimum wage will only make €259.50 and pays tax immediately!!! People should not be in a position to “earn” more on welfare than those who take a low paid job and contribute to society!!
      Any able bodied person out of work for over 1 year should also be cut off!!!

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    • We need to get over this deferential notion that the multinational corporations (MNCs) are somehow doing us a favour by locating themselves here. They are here because they make large profits through operating in Ireland and it suits their global strategy. . Once that situation changes, they will be gone. Our low corporation tax didn’t keep Dell in Limerick for example. Once the numbers no longer added up, they quickly jumped ship to Poland.
      Employment is easily the most important economic metric for the ordinary person.
      Around 10% of the workforce are employed in the multinational sector so that leaves 90% of people who are employed in the domestic economy. Gearing the bulk of our economic policy towards the MNC sector who account for just 10% of the workforce just does not make sense.
      The multinational jobs should be viewed as a bonus to the Irish economy but not something that can be relied on into the future.
      We need to be developing indigenous Irish industry that is solidly connected to this country and will create long term local employment with longevity. Restarting the sugar plants in Carlow and Mallow is one example that springs to mind.
      The co-operative model could be one way to create industry with sustainable jobs which are strongly tied to the locality. When the employees are also the owners of the business, they are encouraged to settle down and develop roots in the community which has big social as well as economic benefits. In addition, decisions taken by the employees/owners tend to be in the interests of the long term viability of the business rather than short term gain. They might for example invest in new machinery to improve competitiveness rather than paying themselves a dividend.
      The globalised economic model benefits the corporates far more than it does the ordinary man and we should be looking for alternatives which support our society instead of fragmenting it.

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    • A ‘general fact’? Where do you get your so-called ‘facts’. High end earners, large multinational companies and banks are the most dependent on government bailouts, or haven’t you been paying attention? The rich hate socialism when it comes to helping the people whom the government claims to represent but love socialism when it saves those same businesses and individuals from the consequences of their own dodgy business practices.

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  • Conor 17/01/13 #

    These multinationals also pay billions in paye and prsi, every socialist “economist” seems to forget this….

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    • Companies don’t pay PRSI or PAYE, they deduct it from employee salaries and pay it on their behalf. It’s a funny, the head of Starbucks’ UK operations trotted out the same argument is when you they recently came under fire there for their dodgy dealings.

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    • * typed on my phone

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    • Conor 17/01/13 #

      If these companies weren’t here, the people wouldn’t have jobs. Therefore no tax income from PAYE and PRSI. By the way a company has to pay PRSI for every employee they hire directly!

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    • The point is that if those companies weren’t here then those jobs would not be here and their employees would be unemployed and claiming SW. I’d prefer to have these companies here paying their low amounts of corporation tax and creating jobs – don’t forget their sales also increase the VAT take. The fact is these companies choose their location based on skilled worforce,
      CT rates and income tax rates – if we increase both we lose those companies which means we lose jobs, as many countries e.g. UK have a skilled workforce

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    • @ Dietrich Död – they pay employer’s PRSI. This is not deducted from the employee’s salary – it’s a direct cost to the employer.
      Learns the facts before you try to spout them like an expert.

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    • @ Sean

      The general gist of my argument still holds, taxes on the income of employees do not compensate for failures by large companies to pay their fare share of taxation, and claiming that multinationals’ diddling and evasion should be tolerated because they ‘create jobs’ is a complete fallacy.

      I never claimed to be an ‘expert’ Sean, I wrote that on my phone, on the bus, half asleep, and minor factual errors aside, at least my tone was civilized.

      In any case, your point is probably negated by the generous PRSI incentive schemes offered to employers by the state, is it not?

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    • Conor, an economist is an economist. The recession is the result largely not of “socialist” economics but the bogus economics of the chicago & austrian schools. Many of these ideas are much more demonstratably false in reality, so why are you attacking socialist economists in particular?

      You don’t have to be a socialist to suggest taxing the rich is a better idea.

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  • Please check out what they did in Iceland and do a proper column on that. They burnt the banks and stood up for the people.

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    • We’re carrying the wealthy Individuals here in this country. People who are unemployable outside this country

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    • Frank the jury is still out, yes the economy is growing in Iceland and the bankers took their share, but there was major suffering for the people according to some commentators along the way

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    • Utter rubbish. Firstly, Iceland has a population around the same as Cork town but with vast natural resources in an enormous area. So it’s not a comparison and I wish people would stop making it.

      Secondly, taxing the rich means crucifying everyone who makes over 50k a year (we dont have enough millionaires resident here to make any difference even if you taxed them all into oblivion). These people already fund 90% of the running costs of the state.

      So in short , no. Cut your services. I’m not handing over half my income so an entire class can sit on the scratcher all day.

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    • Please go on to youtube and watch a video called “What can we learn from Iceland”. They indicted their prime minister for his role in the crisis. They arrested 3 CEO’s of banks and they also brought 200 criminal charges against the bankers. They forgave debt of 110% of home value which eased the debt burden for more the 25% of the population. Yes they have a far smaller population but it is relevative. You simply cannot dismiss what has been done there. There has to be learnings. Their economy is now growing better than the EU average and better than the US. Iceland dont want to join the European Union anymore. The point being overall is that the people stood up for themselves. Why is there not more decent articles written about Iceland.

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    • You can’t compare Ireland with Iceland. Totally different economies. Iceland is not dependent on FDI, is not in a currency union, has huge natural resources and has a population the same as Cork town (just minus the langers).

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    • You can compare and we should compare where in a similar country action was taken. Population is small. yes. 320k. but the principals still apply. They took radical action. It looks like it has worked and the average person is better off as a result of the brave action. I am surprised that there is not a lot more written about it here and why it doesn’t get a lot more publicity

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    • No, let’s not do that. We might aswell compare ourselves to Zimbabwe. They thought printing money would solve the problem – just like the crazy argument you often see floated about reintroducing a punt which would become worthless overnight. Drawing comparisons to totally different economies and suggesting what worked in one will by default work in the other isn’t sound logic. Aside from the tiny population, it’s economic make up is *completely* different to ours.

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  • Pathetic money mongers not managing this counrty’s accounts properly! Shameful!

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  • Socialists are blood sucking vampires. Feeding on the weak and injured. Just say no. Capitalism wasn’t the problem. Problem was capitalism wasn’t enforced. If it was, we would of told the bondholders tough titties, you gambled you lost. Problem also is that there is too many tax write offs and loopholes that are exploited. Sort that but people need to turn back from the darkside. Socialism is evil.

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    • Begrudge, unfortunately we got socialism for the rich, bailouts and tax breaks
      Capitalism for the rest of us, survival of the fittest

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    • +1 begrudgery, all socialists know is how to be jealous

      Shay – the people have had socialism far longer than the banks, its called social welfare .

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    • Stephen , basic social welfare is not socialism, agreed its all the extras that wreck my head,
      But then again politicians get extras, bankers get bonus, all head wrecking

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    • Social welfare is an important corner stone of society, but in capitalist society it’s also traditionally been used as a means of promoting apathy in the lower classes. Capitalism benefits from it too for this reason.

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    • Socialism involve the means of production being owned by the workers rather than a few wealthy elite. In other words, think of a co-operative rather than your average corporation. It allows for a more equal society at the very least, so I hardly see how it’s “evil”. You can disagree with it without calling it evil.

      Neoliberal economics however are a different matter.

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    • that’s an outright lie, Leigh. Socialism is not like a co-operative in any way, membership is not voluntary and neither is trade within it. Co-operatives are an excellent business structure and there should be more of them. In our society you are free to start one anytime you wish – the problem is, socialists don’t seem to want to start them. Why not?

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    • Tim, you have absolutely no idea what socialism is because the co-operative model is actually quite apt.

      Please do not call me a liar based on your own lack of knowledge.

      Having a legal right to set up a business is not the same as actually being able to successfully do so. Some people are at a far greater advantage and people who are born wealthy are less likely to be socialists. As a libertarian(as far as I can tell), you not “believe” in positive as well as negative liberty, and deny the existence of privilege. This is problematic.

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    • well, had those who historically have tried out Socialism not done such a poor job of explaining it, despite numerous re-education camps and the like, we’d all have a better idea of what it is. From friends I gather it’s all about people called workers who own something called the means of production, which is very nice unless you decide you don’t want to participate in it, in which case you have to swim to Florida.
      The co-operative approach is a business model whereby you could compete with other non co-op businesses with the employees sharing the risk because they are also the owners. There should be more co-ops, because those represent more of the libertarian ideal as far as I’m concerned. It may be a superior one to the corporate model but has the disadvantage that employee-owners may not know how much they’ll be paid next month. You can start a co-op any time you like and if you have enough shareholders your startup costs will be shared and won’t be high.

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  • While I agree with the sentiment behind many of Kieran’s arguments, especially the big multinationals, we have to appreciate that Ireland is uniquely dependent on foreign companies settling here due to a favorable tax climate.

    If we continue to be so over reliant on these companies, our economy will never be as stable as we would like it to be and the reliance will only get bigger. To tackle the problem in the long-term, we need to focus on building home-grown industry. One of the areas we should be investing heavily is renewable energy. Even if it will take a while to see some returns, a future European dependence on renewable sources is an inevitability, it’s just a question of when. We have the best conditions in Europe for producing wave energy, and an education system that could support major development of this area.

    The second thing we could do is focusing more on is training Irish people to work in the high-tech industry. The high-tech firms based here are constantly bemoaning our lack of tech graduates and there’s really no benefit in having those companies here if they are neither paying taxes nor employing Irish people!

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  • Never seen an add for lotto saying. “Win millions and use it to give employment in your community start a business”. Yet that’s what the resented wealthy do. Many discouraged business owners are tempted to sell up and live an easier life. Time rich is a form of wealth

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    • Tom , fair enough point, if you earned it I guess that’s your right

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    • Tom, the wealthy do not create jobs. This is a fallacy.

      Allow me to illustrate.

      Tom the Butcher is actually not a butcher at all but a trust fund baby with a large amount of money he didn’t really earn. He decides to give something back to the economy by living up to his name and setting up a chain of Butchers across Ireland. He hires several hundred people.

      Soon, economic bad times hit and the government use it as an excuse to implement right wing policy. People can’t afford to shop at his butcher’s, which largely sells to lower and middle class individuals/families. Suddenly, many of the Jobs Tom created vanish into thin air, his margins go down so he decides to let people off.

      Now, we have another fictional country, Super Ireland.

      Here Tom’s second cousin, Tommy, is not a trust fund baby, in fact his country taxes inheritance and the like more heavily. Because more left-leaning social democracies are proven to have, on average, a higher rate of social mobility, he was able to work his way up from a lower-middle class family to the owner of a successful chain of bakeries. While he did not have the same working capital as his cousin, Tommy was able to take advantage of a good social safety net which helped him through college, and gave him a basic standard of living while he looked for work. This resulted in him becoming properly qualified and entering a field he had researched and knew was for him.

      When the global recession hits, margins start to go down. However, as taxes are not raised on the working and middle class, and welfare is at a high rate, people can still afford more than the basic necessities. He manages to get through without laying anyone off, unlike his cousin, because demand for his fine bread does not tank. In fact, he is soon able to expand more, as the recession ends far quicker than the Irish one thanks the government saving money in the good times by taxing higher earners, inheritance and the like, and was able to give grants to small business owners, many of which employed Tommy’s customers.

      Tommy ends up creating more jobs during the Irish recession, whereas Tom lays people off.

      This is because it is not the wealthy that create jobs. It is the economy. And a society with better social mobility does not require wealthy people to start successful businesses. The social mobility rate of the US and UK after Thatcherism and Reaganism is a paltry 10%, and you can look this statistic up fairly handy. That means only 10% of people ever work their way into(or out of) the class above where the one you were born into – in other words, you’re overwhelmingly more likely to end up in the class in which you start.

      So basically you’re wrong.

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  • The multi national companies would still stay here, but move their profits to different tax zones around the world as they do now, thus still avoiding tax.
    But don’t worry we the people can make up the shortfall through taxes on our assets such as home ownership taxes, and double taxation on most everything else,.

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  • Julie 17/01/13 #

    Right we have nearly the highest paid public servants in Europe, my taxes are paying for a Taoiseach of 26 counties more than the president of United States a Taoiseach not doing his job prop and a Taoiseach I don’t want there and never did,

    okay Starbucks paid 35,000 come on they must have had a great laugh at how idiotic we are. Cut top civil servants before anyone cuts another cent from unemployed and people struggling. I think if its a choice between cutting a women working 24 hours a day looking after someone or putting an extra tax on a person living in luxury I know what my choice would be , but then I have morals unlike this government and the sheep that still support them , other countries have introduced a wealth tax and it has worked so why can’t we.

    This government cannot be trusted they sold our freedom , they have landed us with 42% of eu debt , 9000 per person. 192 everywhere else in eu. Yet still Enda Kenny doesn’t take a cut labour FF FG ye are a disgrace to ye citizens of Ireland! Hang yer heads in shame ! Corruption brown envelopes Galway tents tribunals , starvation, emigration , homelessness, suicide, distress poverty this is all that these parties have given us ! Out out out !
    # REVOLUTION IS COMING IFTHIS DOESN’T STOP !

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  • A single income earner earning over 32k EUR per annum pays 52% on all income above that amount…..that is progressive. The top 5% of earners in this country pay 50% of all income tax. Put simply, 1 person out of every 20 pays the same amount of tax as the other 19 combined. The fundamental problem is not that those on high incomes don’t pay enough tax, the problem is that the tax base is too narrow. Tax paid (including PRSI & USC) as a % of income looks like this for various income levels (assuming single individual status):

    20k EUR: 14.03%
    30k EUR: 19.9%
    45k EUR: 29.1%
    60k EUR: 34.8%
    75k EUR: 38.3%
    90k EUR: 40.5%
    105k EUR: 42.2%
    125k EUR: 43.4%
    150k EUR: 45.15%

    The OECD found Ireland to have the 2nd most progressive system out of 33 countries surveyed in Europe. The Left brigade always try to spin the argument that the high income earners don’t contribute, but the reality is the opposite. Tax breaks are referred to, but what tax breaks actually exist in 2012? A lot of reliefs existed in the boom but these are now gone. This explains why just 5% of taxpayers are paying 50% of all income tax. I think the left needs to look at its part & start paying its way in society.

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  • As If they will ever take off the greedy wealthy it’s people at bottom who spend most in this country but there taking everything off them this economy will never grow unless they tax the wealthy

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  • The mantra of the left. Tax the productive parts of the economy into obliteration.

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    • David only the productive parts create wealth, where the hell else is money supposed to be obtained

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    • Making moderate calls for those that ‘have’ to pay their fair share to support those who don’t, many of whom find themselves thusly because of the whims and failures of the self-proclaimed ‘wealth creators’, is hardly tantamount to “the productive parts of the economy (being taxed) into obliteration”. Besides, with everything that has come to light in recent years about the full extent of tax evasion and avoidance in the global economy, that argument can hardly be made with a straight face.

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  • Great article and a welcome change from the continuous stream of propaganda from the economic pundits and their political commentators.

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  • Sure, taxing the wealthy ”sounds” like a good idea, alright. But why don’t you put yourself in the shoes of a mega-rich person?

    Personally, if I had the wealth of Denis O’Brien or Bono, there wouldn’t be a hope in hell of me paying tax in this country. Not just because there’s cheaper options abroad but because of the sheer stupidity of how our tax money is spent when put in the hands of the government.

    In 2006, the government took in €4bn more than it expected. And we all know what happened 4 years later and how all that money was squandered.

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  • @kieranallen
    the FTT will collect a fraction of what you claim. The executed volume will simply move from Ireland to another jurisdiction. Furthermore, volumes will plummet.

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  • FG taxing the rich, they’d rather eat horse burgers while on fire. They wouldn’t dare, their job is to protect the few that hold most of the wealth. The Shheple of Ireland exist to keep this group protected, from their fair share!

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    • Lamb 17/01/13 #

      The Troika have slammed the government on the budget. The Troika have said that middle and low income earners are being taxed too heavily and that budgets need to focus on business and higher incomes. The governement is now putting mortgages that were being repaid at risk and exposing the banks more to defaulters. Their policies on job creation aren’t working and the way they have taxed families is going to lead to contraction in the economy. All I can say is I’m glad my wife and I have no debts, no mortgage and no kids.

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    • FF look after you if you have a billion in the bank and FG look after you if you have a million in the bank and these are the parties that most people have turned to in the history of the state to look after them. Talk about voting against yourself.

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  • Or sell a county to China as a missile base !!!

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  • in a sense kieran allen does want a bolshevik takeover as he’s a prominant member of the socialist workers party: not that he( and indeed richard boyd barrett) are ever introduced as such by the media for some reason.

    also doubtless he is on an extremely good salary in ucd but id say his social solidarity doesnt extend to this being cut in the national interest; that likely will only be the fate of the ‘grubby wealth creators’.

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  • Wealthy is an abstract term. It isnt possible to tax the wealthy as we are only capable to tax things which exist in the physical plane. Wealthy is not a well defined term, it is an imputation of the mind. It might sound cool infront of college students to use terms like “super-salaries”, but no serious adult can write that into law.

    “The only difference is that our own masters will answer directly to that anonymous force known as ‘The Markets’.”

    The market isnt anonymous. You buy a banana in a shop, that is the market. You can chose to see all those involved or not.

    “Strangely, we never hear how many jobs will go and from where are they most likely to disappear.”

    Any economst that tells you that they can predict what hapens after a tax is implementd is lying to you. HUman beings simply do not have enough data about the world to accurately predict the large scale effect of every action. Most do not know how to properly feed themselves let alone run a country.

    “The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.”
    -F.A.Hayek.

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    • Wrong analogy. The wealthy tend to stash their money on the sidelines and not invest it into jobs. The bottom 90% are the life and blood of the Irish economy because they spend the most money into it. Taxes on the top 10 per cent are also at a 25 year low. Since the 1980’s, taxes on the rich have been falling due to:

      - tax breaks
      - tax rebates (e.g. on company cars)
      - tax anomalies (the so called “double Irish”)

      Wealthy must pay their fair share of taxes which are at a 25 year low.

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  • Of course they should pay the same % share as the rest of us pay, flat tax with little or no exemptions is fair

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  • Increasing taxes on the wealthy job creators or the corporations is pure lunacy , you would have to completely dismiss all logic to suggest that it would work . Lower taxes for everyone would help our economy far more .

    This is just more left wing begrudging and a continuation of the war on the rich , anyone who agrees with this article should look around and face facts, its the immigrants and people on welfare hurting the economy, not the ‘rich’

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    • http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/la-fi-billionares-gain-20130103,0,7105430.story
      You mean these job creators and the corporations they represent?

      The war on the rich?

      “its the immigrants and people on welfare hurting the economy”

      Considering your opinions seem to align somewhat to those of Friedman and Hayek, would you then not be favour of the free movement of labour without any “big government” intervention?

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    • If the world was an entirely open market then the immigration issue would not be a problem , presently immigrants bringing welfare dependent family members with them or sending money home is causing financial trouble for Ireland .

      Friedman and Hayek were brilliant economists, the austrian / free market economic model is still the best system we have, perhaps if it had been implemented then the world wouldn’t have had the collapse and years of debt that corporate socialism and big government has brought.

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    • But to suggest the world can be “an entirely open market” betrays the history of western wealth. I always find it a very bizarre occurrence when Irish people speak of the ills of immigrants. We have been exporting our youth for over a century. Was it different because we were the same colour and spoke the same language as they did in the places we went?

      Are Friedman and Hayeks’ theories (and those of the broader austrian/free marketeers) not based on a system of perpetual growth and expansion. We live on a world of finite resources, to believe that annual growth is sustainable and desirable is baffling.

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    • Eh Stephen i hope you are really rich for your own sake because when the wave breaks and crashes you better have the funds to get out of here because your guna be n deep shit spouting that crap.I think its you thats not dealing with reality have a good think now for yourself.

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    • When the people the real rich at the top discard hangerson who do you think the angry poor are going to turn on who will be protecting you and your mentality.Lamb to the slaughter read a history book people like you are always hung out to dry be the people you aspire to be like.

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    • Agree with your first paragraph but not the second. Friedman proposed the ‘negative income tax’ so was not against supporting the very poor on principle – our biggest expenses lie in government waste not a relatively small group of welfare recipients, many of whom represent only a temporary expense.
      Flatter, simpler tax structures would open many people’s eyes as to what running the country actually costs, then we might see less talk of tax increases and more about cutting spending.

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  • “The valiant efforts of MEP Nessa Childers”….otherwise known as the ongoing carping of MEP Nessa Childers from the sidelines as she continues to undermines her own party, Government and country.

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  • A tax of one cent on every text message would solve everything !!!

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