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Dublin: 2 °C Saturday 25 May, 2013

Column: The Fine Gael revolt against abortion ‘liberalisation’ is misguided. Here’s why.

The expert group on abortion isn’t looking to loosen the rules about abortion – merely to give effect to what the constitution already says, writes Fiona de Londras.

Fiona de Londras

THE IRISH TIMES today reported that a group of Fine Gael deputies and senators have signalled their intent to revolt against so-called ‘abortion liberalisation’.

The move is foreshadowing the response of Minister for Health James Reilly to whatever recommendations might be made by the expert committee established in the light of A, B & C v Ireland.

The concept of ‘abortion liberalisation’ needs some interrogation here, for what is at question is not in fact the liberalisation of the abortion regime (which suggests the ‘loosening’ of rules or ‘widening’’of access), but rather giving effect to the constitutional regime that already exists.

The Irish Constitution protects with equal vigour the right to life of a pregnant woman and of her unborn child in Article 40.3.3. Over twenty years ago, in the by now infamous case of Attorney General v X, the Supreme Court determined that this meant that the Constitution permitted abortion where there is a real risk to the life of the mother including from suicide. The Supreme Court laid down the test in unequivocal language:
“[I]f it is established as a matter of probability that there is a real and substantial risk to the life, as distinct from the health, of the mother, which can only be avoided by the termination of her pregnancy, such termination is permissible”.

This makes it quite clear that there is a very limited right, under the Constitution, for a woman to access an abortion. However, no government over the last 20 years has acted on that decision to put in place a clear system whereby the right can be exercised.

What, then, was the 2010 case of A, B & C v Ireland all about? Simply put, Ms C – the only successful applicant in the case – claimed that she believed she fell under the constitutional right to an abortion, but that the lack of a framework to apply the test meant that she could not effectively access abortion in this country. As a result, she had to travel for her abortion and this, she claimed, was a violation of her rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. The European Court of Human Rights agreed, deciding that where a state has allowed for abortion in some circumstances a system must be in place whereby a woman can avail of an abortion if she satisfies the test.

Rather than talk misleadingly of liberalisation, the present discussion should be one of respect for the Constitution

In effect, all the European Court of Human Rights told us was what we already knew: where there is a legal right to do ‘y’ it must be possible for that right to be exercised, otherwise it is essentially illusory. It did not tell us that we must allow abortion in more situations than is currently the case; rather, the extent of the availability of abortion is a matter for the state to decide.

In Ireland, we have already decided on that. We have a clear constitutional text, interpreted by the Supreme Court by means of a straightforward test outlined above, and which the People twice chose not to change when invited to do so in referenda (1992 and 2002). In essence, responding to A, B & C v Ireland (by which, incidentally, Ireland is legally bound) is simply a matter of giving effect to the right that a woman whose pregnancy endangers her life is guaranteed by the Constitution. That can be done by putting in place some clear and workable scheme so that doctors would know what they can do and when, and women could find out whether they can have an abortion here or need to travel because their circumstances fall outside of the narrow exception in Article 40.3.3.

The expert committee’s report might provide an opportunity for a broader discussion about abortion in Ireland – especially about whether we might want to broaden access – but that is a separate matter to legislating for X and A, B & C. To represent one as the other seems at best an elementary mistake, and at worst a disingenuous attempt to deflect attention from twenty years of politicians’ abdication of their duty to give effect to the terms of the Constitution.

For elected parliamentarians to threaten a mutiny rather than give effect to a provision of the Constitution as defined by the Supreme Court and impliedly endorsed by the People through two referenda is really quite remarkable in a constitutional democracy. Rather than talk misleadingly of abortion liberalisation, the present discussion should be one of respect for the Constitution, not to mention for women who find themselves in the narrow circumstances covered by Article 40.3.3 as it stands.

Fiona de Londras is currently a lecturer in UCD School of Law and, from September 2012, will be a Professor of Law in Durham Law School.

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Comments (195 Comments)

  • Fiona 19/07/12 #

    John, I appreciate you are not a lawyer but the reason I am not in the Supreme Court, as you put it, is because thankfully I do not have locus standii in relation to this matter.

    Reply
    • Come now, I don’t imagine you, or some other, would have great difficulty finding a willing client. Curious how in the more than 20 years since X, this remedy has never been sought.

      Reply
    • It has. See ABC v Ireland.

      Reply
    • A case taken to the ECHR, not our own Supreme Court, which has governance over our own constitution, which the author seems to suggest may require us to legislate. This course of action won the right for disabled children to be educated on equal terms as their able counterparts. If it was a suitable forum to decide that, it is a suitable forum to decide on this also.

      Reply
    • Sorry, are you referring to the TD case? Because that was a loss for the right to special needs education…

      And while I guess you can argue that the Constitution lets quite a few people down in practice (those with specific education requirements, mothers who are forced by economic necessity to work outside the home), it would seem fairly non controversial that a woman should be able to discuss with her doctor the results of continuing a pregnancy without a chilling effect.

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    • “A loss for the right”? Yes, because the right hates kids with special needs. I forgot. Must remind people of that at the next meeting of the vast-right-wing conspiracy. We can put it on the agenda between “more landmines for areas where children play in poor countries” and “how to improve our comedy villain laughs”.

      Reply
    • A loss for the right to special needs education. Meaning the constitutional right to special needs education. You totally misread that one…

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    • js1711 19/07/12 #

      John, I don’t imagine there are many women who faced with a crisis pregnancy (result of rape or coinciding with cancer) are prioritising a challenge in the Supreme court. Perhaps that’s why 20 yrs have passed. Abortion is never an easy decision and if it’s one a woman makes, she likely doesn’t make it easily. A,B,C and X are brave women/child. What it must’ve taken for them to take a court action given everything else in their lives. It isn’t black or white.

      Reply
  • So there is no need for a referedum as this is already in the constitution.
    Time to allow women the right to determine what goes on in their womb.

    Reply
    • There is something very wrong when a woman like C (from the ABC case) can’t even get clear information from a doctor as to whether she is entitled to an abortion due to complications from a rare form of cancer. Anyone who opposes this legislation is actually anti-woman.

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    • Well said. Thing is, every woman is entitled to determine whether or not she continues with a pregnancy regardless of what the state says.

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    • Actually, Sorcha, I lived in Ireland for years before my partner and I had to emigrate for work purposes. I’m sorry that you don’t think people who have emigrated should have a say in the debate, but I guess when being able to argue against someone fails, you have to result to personal comments.

      Reply
    • This is a great piece. Fine Gael should hang their heads in shame for colluding with Youth Defence and protracting the suffering of so many women in this country.

      Reply
    • Another good reason to bury them next election. The list is getting quite long now.

      Reply
    • Why murder the unborn? has the child not got a right to be born,all you feminists out there are responsible for the deaths of millions of unborn children over 50% of these female babies,so much for women s rights when all it is doing is killing millions of unborn females let alone male babies.

      Reply
    • Has a woman got a right to not be pregnant? Yes. Yes, she does.

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    • Hey Martin.. You do realise that up to 50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage don’t you?
      the medical term for this is “spontaneous abortion”. Indeed, an abortion carried out within the first trimester is a chemically induced miscarriage.

      Nowhere near as dramatic a mental image as those who oppose freedom of choice would like to frame it now is it?

      Reply
    • shanti u realise 100% of all human beings die, most die naturally from disease etc but its always more dramatic when they are killed.
      Even more dramatic when they are young adults, teenagers but especially children. Our society feels especially sad and emotional when children are tortured and killed. This is the distinction you fail to grasp.
      Some may die spontaneously but that doesnt justify killing them.

      Reply
    • Eleen 20/07/12 #

      it’s not a child at that stage – not scientifically. this is an important fact. At that stage of pregnancy, it’s a miniscule clump of cells. So saying abortion is killing children is quite obviously a lie. If you believe in life at conception, fair enough – but that’s a belief. And I don’t think anyone would disagree with it being a potential life. It’s still not the same thing as a baby and mixing up the facts is a pretty common tactic used to confuse the debate.

      Reply
    • Haha im not the one mixing up the facts.
      Scientifically it is a separate and unique human individual, growing and developing from the moment of conception until its death.
      Can I ask you this when does it stop being a “clump of cells” and become flesh (cells) and blood (cells) like you or me?

      For some reason some people dont “believe” that that human being has the same “value” as others. Of course they are entitled to that belief but our constitution does give it value and a right to life.
      The current abortion debate is not about whether its a clump of cells or not because a) its unscientific b) it would require a referendum. Its about a clash of rights; the right to life of the unborn clashes versus the right to bodily autonomy of the mother.

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    • Eleen 21/07/12 #

      The anti-choice movement is notorious for lying and twisting logic in order to mislead people and confuse the issue. That’s how they can claim that forcing their morals and judgements on other people is justifiable. That’s completely aside to the bullying and shaming tactics they like to employ.

      And that’s why it’s important to be accurate about this sort of thing.

      It’s aside from the real debate, you’re right there. I don’t usually like going into the arguments about when something is a human being because everybody has their own ideas about that – and they’re entitled to their ideas in my opinion. They’re simply not entitled to force their ideas and beliefs onto other people.

      Well, obviously they are because people are doing that very thing left right and centre it seems.

      Reply
  • I don’t understand the whole thing. If you disagree with abortion, don’t have one. You don’t have to prevent others too.
    I don’t agree with wearing pyjamas in public. I’m not about to stop others doing it though.

    Reply
    • Ronan Mc Donnell, If you don’t want to murder someone don’t do it, the right to choose how to treat your own body is yours. Premeditated taking of a human life is known as murder, only permitted in proven self defence of one own’s life or to protect another’s life. Abortion can only be applied to protect the mother’s life not the baby’s. FYI I’m left leaning in politics agnostic in religion except on the subject of abortion.

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    • If the right to choose how to treat my own body is mine, then surely that should involve denying someone else the right to live off of it. Even if you believe an embryo is a person, surely you must admit their right to live off a woman is in direct conflict with her right to bodily autonomy?

      Reply
    • Ciaran, if abortion is murder then why haven’t the 4,000 Irish women who travelled to the UK last year for one been arrested and charged with murder?

      Reply
  • Diane 19/07/12 #

    Well put Fiona. It strikes me that the FG rallying call has caused unnecessary tension in an already extremely delicate issue, harking back to the ferocious savagery of debates in the 80′s and 90′s. It sets a hugely unhelpful tone when the main purpose of the expert committee, as stated, is to examine the current state of the law.

    Reply
    • Women and their wombs have been a constant source of complexity and stress in this storm tossed island for quite a while. Every doctor states that in the circumstance of a mothers life being put at risk they will terminate the pregnancy. So what’s the issue.

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    • “Every doctor?” Did you miss the ABC case, because that’s clearly not true. And if it’s not a problem, why are people so opposed to guidelines being legislated?

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    • I have never managed to read a clear description of what happened in the C case. Far as i can gather she insisted on an abortion which is the legal grey area whereas she could have insisted on Chemotherapy and there would not have been a problem…

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    • Wow, you really didn’t read anything about it. One – she didn’t actually have cancer. She had cancer. And there is a significant risk that the hormones released during pregnancy would bring the cancer back. Not necessarily while she was pregnant but possibly after. So you suggest that instead of ending the life of an unconscious embryo which can be chemically aborted (basically an induced miscarriage) we instead risk the development of a life threatening cancer in an Irish citizen and if she does develop the cancer we say “Ah sure, she can just have poison pumped into her body once a week for six months with no guarantee it will work. It’ll be grand.”.

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    • Sorry, just to clarify, she had cancer a while before she became pregnant. And is she had had cancer, but was cancer free at the time.

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    • Ah right. Ok well my naive question is then, how far along the pregnancy do these hormones get released?

      Had abortion been available in Ireland, is there a gaurentee that it would have stopped the pregnancy hormones developing seeing as she was pregnant before she had the abortion?

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    • Frank, I urge you to read the case before commenting on the treatment pregnant women receive. The court did not delve too much into details of her treatment, focusing on how C had attempted to frankly discuss with her doctor the best course of treatment and whether she was entitled to a termination. Doctors were unwilling to do so, as there were no guidelines in place. If you oppose implementation of the x case guidelines, you are opposed to women being able to fully discuss options with their doctors.

      Reply
    • As ive already said, I did read up on it at the time, I couldnt find a clear unbiased picture or narrative of what happened and why, I had questions and still do. If you have a good source on the story by all means Ill go though it. For now Ill stick with if hormones produced during pregnancy bring back her cancer how would abortion stop this if she was already pregnant when she got the abortion? Is there no hormonal treatment she could have availed of to prevent the production of these hormones? If she did not receive this information or any other information related to her pregnancy and/or risks the doctor is at fault.
      A doctor is not bound by law to refuse medical information and he (or anyone she would consult) should know the balance of harms etc.
      If he told her everything, and felt abortion was medical necessary this should have been dealt with. If the legal position in this case is unclear it should be clarified (because it is clear that at present under Irish law, if it is felt that the pregnancy is a threat to a mothers life then termination is deemed medically necessary).

      well no actually your putting words in my mouth now. I oppose implementation of the X case because a) it was not based on sound medical advice. b) did not place any limits which leaves any legislation open to abuse. c) if she was suicidal, how can we know that abortion would solve the problem and in fact wont make it worse? d) how would such a law work in practice? do we have to interrogate her psychologically to make sure she really is suicidal? wouldnt that make it worse, on the other hand if we dont then the law is not based on sound medical advice but on subjective feelings of a women in a traumatic situation.

      That does not mean I oppose women who are pregnant and whose lives are in danger should be refused treatment or information. I have said already that the Medical council should clarify publicly its guidelines and if it has any legal issues or needs clarity to ask for clarification and guidelines.

      Reply
    • An unbiased source would be the case itself! Have a read: http://www.bailii.org/eu/cases/ECHR/2010/2032.html. In fact, I would always read court cases myself, rather than getting other people’s views.

      One of the interesting points raised was that there was no method to resolve disputes between doctors as to whether an abortion was necessary, as most women would ask for a second opinion. This seems to be an obvious oversight. The expert group is supposed to be consulting medical groups and making some draft recommendations. I’m not really sure why ANYONE would oppose this process and think TDs should reject it before hearing it.

      The appropriate time for debate is when the report is produced and it should be what the content of the legislation should be. I’m honestly baffled by anyone totally opposed to legislation at all.

      Reply
  • Anyone else have the experience of putting comments including legitimate information (actual research) on the YD facebook page? The reaction for me was to delete the comments, ban putting up further comment and ignore email requests asking for a reason why.

    Amazing reaction from those who used the defense of “free speech” to justify their recent advertising campaign…..

    Reply
  • Fiona 19/07/12 #

    *locus standi (apols for typo; on a mobile)

    Reply
  • Excellent article – people in this country, particularly women, have suffered gross indignity too long. These 15 TDs will never get my vote, and Im glad others agree.

    Reply
  • I cringe whenever this topic comes up. When faced with a complex decision such as this, we should begin by examining the facts then taking into account ethical considerations and so forth. Not here however. Oh no. When it comes to abortion the left and right, conservative and progressive marshal their respective forces, dig in for the winter and hurl soundbites across no man’s land. Two polarised viewpoint, diametrically opposed without even the slightest interest in hearing what the other party has to say. There are persuasive arguments to be made for and against. This issue has been rumbling along in the background for a long time now – we really need to up the quality of debate around it.

    Reply
    • Very true. I’ve never been entirely convinced by either side of the debate and it’s probably because of the nature of the argument itself. It’s a biological argument versus a legal one, and sitting on the fence is not a real option ..

      Reply
  • Diane 19/07/12 #

    Btw Journal- the lawyer in the picture was Ms. Carmel Stewart SC, now Her Honour Judge Stewart.

    Reply
  • Great article. Those FG idiots are mad to insert stupid fiscal rules into the constitution but are now pre-empting this legislation and essentially saying they will not obey the constitution, hypocrites,

    Right to choose now!

    Reply
  • That’s the “reopen the Vatican embassy ” mob at work again

    Reply
  • Great piece on a rarely-debated issue. FG’s protests are merely a pander to their right wing base IMO…many of them are first-timers in the Oireachtas who don’t want any issue holding them back, and I’m pretty sure anything but a hardline stance here would affect their vote. As for the requirement of the provision of abortion in limited circumstances, it may very well be constitutionally sound, but I’m not so sure doctors will be queuing up to earn themselves the “notoriety” of being the first to legally perform an abortion in the Republic.

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    • No one has to know who performs the abortion.
      We dont want abortion clinics all over the place, just a chance for a woman to have a surgical procedure in a normal hospital setting with trained staff.

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    • @ tommy, what makes you an expert on what women need? If they want clinics all over the place it’s non of your business .. It seems to me that the ones that this effects the least are the ones with the biggest opinions.. ie men.

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  • Fine Gael care more about foetus ‘s than they do living people.

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    • Youth Defense should change their name to ‘Foetal Defense’.

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    • Brendan Gallagher, Aborted babies aren’t given a chance to be living people. Abortion is not a cure for cancer. Abortion doesn’t guarantee avoidance of suicide. Anyone who has lost a baby through illness or natural abortion mourn a great loss which sometimes make them feel suicidal. Fine Gael is a disaster and hyprocritical party,I hope they suceed on this one.

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    • Ciaran, let them grow in your womb then!

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    • @Brendan You know who also aren’t given a chance to be living people? Women who kill themselves. While you’re absolutely right that abortion won’t end all depression and suicidal thoughts (especially amongst men, I’d imagine!), it’s disappointing how easily you dismiss maternal health.

      And as someone who has actually had a miscarriage (I’m guessing by your name you have not), it did not make me feel suicidal. Each woman is an individual case, it’d be nice if you treated them as such.

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    • Ciaran, I’ve actually written several responses to you and had to delete them myself because of my anger and frustration. I’m sorry, but WHAT gives you the right to make that decision for another person? What makes you think you can take away my reproductive rights? If I do not wish to have a child, I should never have to carry one against my will. It’s barbaric and a gross violation of my human rights. You also assume that losing a baby can make one feel suicidal – and without wanting to make a generalisation, perhaps that outcome is just as likely to occur in a woman who feels she’s being forced through a pregnancy. You do not seem to think of that at all.

      Reply
  • Ah conservative with a Large C I see

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  • Simply put, the Republic of Ireland is not a sovereign state until we provide for abortion on request, which is the norm in Europe. Every country in Europe with a population in excess of a million people provides for abortion on request except for the Republic of Ireland and Poland. Even in Poland, abortion is provided for in cases of foetal abnormality, the threat to both the life and health of the mother and rape. Fobbing off this sovereign duty on our neighbour, Britannia, is an act of supreme cowardice.

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  • you can get an abortion in the UK up to 24 weeks Pregnant. That’s 6 months old. A baby can live outside the womb at this age.
    i have an 11 week scan and can see all the features of a baby in it. The baby kicks at 20 weeks.

    I think only in the very dire circumstances should abortion be allowed and never on request as a form of birth control like it is in the UK.

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  • It is interesting the Fiona’s final paragraph talks of abortion being “impliedly endorsed” by the Irish people in two referenda. In my time dealing with issues of law I never heard of anyone relying on an “implication” as hard evidence. I find it extraordinary then, that the writer of this piece would cling to such a vague notion given the importance of the issue at hand.

    As has been said in several points above, there is no obligation on the government to legislate for X in the light of the ABC Case. The ECHR required us to choose a law that is clear – but it made no recommendations on what the terms of that law should be. It accepted that the issue of abortion is one of some extreme importance to the Irish people and as such, they are entitled to be the final arbiters in the matter.

    Fiona avoids any real consideration of what is actually envisaged by legislation for X. Seeing as that Case set no time limits, heard no medical or psychiatric evidence, it would not be considered a good foundation for law in this area. It is also true that legislation along the lines of X would have to allow for abortion to be permitted up to birth in the case of suicide – this is hardly what is proposed by the writer, or desired by the Irish people.

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    • Fiona 19/07/12 #

      Cora, the point there is to say two referenda invited the Irish people to narrow X and we declined to do so on both occassions. We have never been asked to expand it so one cannot say whether we approve of the provision per se; merely that we do not approve of a narrower allowance as has been presented to us in referenda. Hence, impliedly approved. It is not presented as a legal argument but merely to show that there is no basis through our constitutionally mandated mechanisms to conclude that the People care for a more restrictive approach.

      You are quite right to say there are no upper age limits under X, although of course the more advanced a pregnancy is the more likely it seems that an abortion might not be required to save the woman’s life (that being the test), but ultimately the X case constructs this as a MEDICAL question, which seems right to me. Indeed, it is a structure for discussion of options and implementation of appropriate medical decisions in Ireland (if X is satisfied) or abroad (if X is not satisfied) that I propose is required to properly make effective the constitutional position on abortion.

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    • Fiona the 2002 referendum was more than just about the Xcase. In fact the pro life movement was split with the likes of PLC voting in favour and the likes of Youth Defence voting against (ie on the same side as Labour).
      It was a close call as well, had Youth Defence and the more extreme pro lifers voted in favour it would have passed. Irregardless it was 20 years and the discourse has moved on. Very few pro choice people i know are in favour of legistating just for the X case and no more… many would like to see it expanded. We should be more open and honest about what we want and have a proper referendum and see what happens.

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    • You seem to be arguing that politicians shouldn’t legislate for how people voted – they should legislate for how people “intended” to vote. Not overly democratic. And actually, an array of non partisan polls should a majority of Irish people are not pro choice, but support abortion access for maternal health and fatal foetal abnormalities (Red C/Irish Examiner poll specifically.) So your generalisation really doesn’t hold true.

      We should absolutely have another referendum on broader abortion access. But the X case guidelines should still be legislated.

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    • It to mention the irony of Cora Sherlock saying that two referendums don’t indicate “implied approval” while simultaneously saying that a poll of less than 1,000 people using highly ambiguous questions somehomeh plies that 79% of Irish women are pro-life.

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    • *somehow

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    • @Fiona –

      The abortion issue is the most complex of all. It involves considerations of an ethical, legal, medical and political nature. The TDs and Senators who have reiterated their opposition to abortion legislation are not “threatening a mutiny” as you suggest. Such language is drama-laden and unhelpful to the debate. They are simply recognising the complexities involved.

      They are also cognisant of the fact that the X Case would not be a good basis for legislation, given the lack of time limits, the failure to hear medical or psychiatric evidence. We are required to do more than simply legislate for a Case that has failures of this nature, particularly when we are dealing with something of the magnitude of abortion.

      You may say that you feel it is unlikely that an abortion would not be required in the final trimester of pregnancy under X, but this is mere conjecture on your part. A pregnant woman would be entitled to an abortion at any stage up to birth if she felt suicidal. Offering an abortion in such a case would be treating a psychiatric illness with a medical procedure – something we don’t do in any other area of psychiatric practice. Why should abortion be any different? This fact goes to prove the shortcomings of X where abortion is concerned.

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    • @Stephanie –

      Hi Stephanie, I don’t think there is any inconsistency in my argument. The poll results are clear. The question was related to the commitment given by the Fine Gael Party prior to the election, and was framed as such. It didn’t claim anything more than to state that 79% of people polled (as opposed to women) still agreed with this commitment being kept in place.

      PS I would like to continue our discussion on a recently interrupted thread because you made some interesting points so will try to get back to you later.

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    • thats not what im trying to say. Merely insisting that the 2002 referendum in particular was simply about a suicide clause is disingenuous, dishonest and revisionist.
      The Irish people rejected changing the Status Quo that it is all we can say without presuming to know what the electorate thought or was voting on.
      There are always problems with polls, partisan or not depending on how the question is worded. Under the status Quo women should not be denied medical treatment during pregnancy, the medical council has even said that refusing to this should be considered malpractice. Perhaps public clarification should be made from medical authorities to remove what is apparently considered a shady legal area.
      The problem with legislating for the X case is that it is not medical when a medical professional (psychiatrist didnt give testimony), would allow abortion up to birth for simply stating you are suicidal, and would be open to abuse or a liberal interpretation (as happened in England).

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    • But 79% of people polled didn’t say that, Cora. 57% did. I think eliminating the 22% of people didn’t know or didn’t want to respond is ignoring a fairly substantial statistic. (2%, sure, 22%? Might be something significant there and that should be disseminated.) Also, does the Pro Life campaign offer a gender breakdown of the original results? I’d like to see them.

      Frank, you should read the ABC case. Amongst the problems listed were if two doctors disagreed on treatment, there’s no way of determining the outcome. Can you imagine having to sit there while doctors dispute the effect your pregnancy will have and no way to settle it? Heartbreaking. If you are truly opposed to liberalisation of abortion laws, you should craft guidelines to reflect, rather than denying cancer survivors the opportunity to freely consult with their doctors. If you’re actually pro life, that is.

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    • I read it at the time and I read about it in the many reports but I could never find a satisfactory explanation of what happened and why if their lives were in danger they were not treated. It appears that in the case of C (the only one who’s case was validated by the court), she describes receiving insufficient information from doctors and a a “chilling effect of the Irish legal framework”, and so researched it online by herself and decided (ie no medical advice that abortion was medically necessary) to go to England for an abortion. If you have a better link/explanation please post it.

      Of course I actually do agree that there appears to be a reluctance from doctors to act in certain cases due to this apparent grey area. The medical council and its ethics guidelines insist that refusing to treat a woman who is pregnant is malpractice. BUT if they feel it is unclear they should specify their concerns about how and when they can act legally and guidelines made public and information available as to how it should work.

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    • You should read the actual case, frank. She sought medical advice from a a doctor and could not get it. This was accepted by the Irish government and echr. Where did you get looked up on internet? Read the case.

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    • Fiona 21/07/12 #

      Cora–the ‘threatening a mutiny’ language is in direct reference to the Irish Times column (which uses that language) that prompted me to write the column. More substantively, if the parliament disagrees with X then it should either get it changed (through referendum) or try to mitigate what it considers its shortcomings to be by means of the regulatory structures it puts in place to give effect to the thrust of the decision. I don’t believe it is acceptabe to simply do nothing for 20 years.

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  • My Land Law lecturer about 4 years ago, she gave very good lectures. I loved the subject because of her!

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  • @ William grogan

    I consider myself not one but religious … however ,I do have a problem with taking a life.

    especially after seeing a scan of a baby at 11 weeks with a nose and arms and legs and feeling it kick at 20 weeks . In the UK you can have an abortion up to 24 weeks.. Think about it.. That’s 6 months old. At what age /how many weeks do you say its too late to have an abortion .

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  • You are talking about 0.1% of women who need an abortion for those reasons ..

    99.9 % of abortions are to get rid of an unwanted baby not to save the mothers life.

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    • It’s more like 2%, but regardless: while it may be a minority, the X case guidelines are only concerned with these cases. Opposing abortion on non maternal health grounds has nothing to do with this current legislative debate.

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    • Exceptional cases make bad law. That’s why I suppose this is such a contentious issue; the amount of women who need abortions to save their lives is miniscule, but abortion for these exceptional reasons can become abortion on demand for no other reason than inconvenience etc. Not the way to go.

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    • I guess it depends on whether you think these women are more important than vague ideas of the slippery slope. I do, you do not. Which one of us is pro life again?

      Reply
  • I wonder will Alan Shatter give the “lawmakers can’t be lawbreakers speech” so commonly used by FG when faced with any suggestions from the opposition to enact new legislation, to their own members now. Come on FG, if this is the law, and FG being the law and order party, can’t your own members keep the law FG cherishes so much! After all it’s in the constitution.

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  • Nick ,like yourself me and my Wife value each other, and in doing so we respect ALL life from conception till death. and knowing my wife yes she would sacrifice her own life for her children, alive or unborn.

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    • But you just said you value your unborn child more than your wife, as if she had a life threatening condition, you would expect her to continue the pregnancy. Which is fine, if both partners are open and honest about it. I just (and purely personal, would never enforce this one anyone else) could not be married to a man who valued a developing person over an adult woman.

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  • I’m pro life for the unborn child who has no choice at all !! And I would be a hypocrite to say its ok to have the choice when I would never ever have an abortion myself !!!

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    • Is it not hypocritical to expect other women to live by *your* choice? Seeing as you got to make the decision for yourself, shouldn’t they?

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    • How would it be hypocritical? You say you have chosen to take the position that abortion is wrong, but you deny everyone else the right to make the same choice. So if this came to a vote, by voting against a woman’s right to an abortion, then you are denying them the right to make an informed and important decision that affects their lives and NOT yours! The problem with Pro-life people is there insistence to force their views and opinions on everyone else without any care for another opinion! Do they care about protecting children when they force them too see images of aborted foetuses while walking past the GPO as they “protest” against something that isn’t even legal here?

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    • The problem with the anti-choice lot is that their entire argument is based on their primitive superstitious religion, therefore they have no argument. They are a bunch of brainwashed appendages to the corrupt Catholic Church.

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    • @William Grogan

      Nonsense!

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    • No Maurice, nonsense is the adsurd superstition that a “soul” occupies a bundle of cells at conception. It’s as nonsensical as the notion the Earth is at the centre of the Universe like you lot used to believe and in fact execute those who claimed otherwise.

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    • Regardless of the existence of a soul or otherwise, the fact remains that human life begins at the moment of conception, so it’s scientifically a human being. Would you disagree with what is now scientifically accepted?

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    • If that was actually so scientifically accepted, why did the European Court of Human Rights say in 2010 that there was no scientific and legal consensus as to when life began (ironically in support of Ireland’s prohibition of abortion on non-maternal health grounds?)

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    • Maurice, your sentence “so it’s scientifically a human being” is total meaningless nonsense and shows you have a total lack of knowledge of what Science is all about. Your religion has a superstitious and completely inaccurate understanding of what life is.

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  • Why use the constitutions as mask for the real question. Abortion.

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    • Its not masking anything. Anti-choicers are masking real issues in real womens lives as murder and adding religions cr@p into it too.

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    • Tommy show me where religious rhetoric has been used anywhere in the recent abortion debate?

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    • Yes, Youth Defense are being quite careful not to bring religion into it. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that every one of their views when it comes to all our private parts are in line with the catholic church. (contraception, homosexuality, marriage, abortion, sex education).

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    • Abortion is very different though. Its not an issue of “private parts” its an issue of a clash of rights (especially in the irish context).

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    • Well given that the rights you mention include my right to autonomy over my private parts, I think it’s very relevant, but if you need a lesson on anatomy you could try asking your parents.

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    • well it seems you need a lesson in clash of rights.
      The Irish constitution says the Unborn child has a right to life. The mother has a right to her body but the problem is that there are two bodies and two competing rights.
      Obviously we disagree on the abortion argument but I was just trying to point out the difference between this debate and the debate about beliefs about contraception (which ispersonal and doesnt involve removing another persons rights)

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    • Obviously, the constitution disagrees with Stephanie. It also disagrees with radical pro life organisations such as Youth Defence, as the Bunreacht na hEireann clearly states that a woman can obtain an abortion on maternal health (not maternal life) grounds.

      She was offering her opinion rather than a constitutional analysis. If only both sides of this debate could mark the two as clearly separate!

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  • So when is thejournal.ie going to have someone offer the contrary view?

    Reply
    • I’m sure if you offer to write it, they’ll publish it. The journal is nothing if not impartial.

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    • Well I know people who have written articles on this issue for thejournal.ie and they have never seen the light of day. That’s why I ask.
      How many people will vote this down because they don’t want to hear a contrary view?

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    • Simple, Liam – it’s because there isn’t a contrary view.

      This article isn’t about he substantive issue of abortion; the writer makes that VERY clear. This article discusses the following reality: abortion is permitted under the Irish constitution in limited circumstances; the Supreme Court ruled in this 20 years ago; the Irish people have TWICE declined to further restrict access to abortion; successive governments have failed to set out rules and procedures for how to access this limited right; the ECtHR has ruled, as per its usual jurisprudence, that the government MUST set up those rules and procedures.

      The writer made no arguments about expanding access to abortion – we don’t even know if she supports this or not. By all means, if the Journal publishes an article calling for abortion on demand, ask for / submit a contrary argument. That’s not what’s happening here though.

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  • I believe that life starts at conception and it’s Notting to do with religion I’m am not a religious person , but I have to be on the youth defence side because I personally can not see abortion as an answer , there are other options, and of I became pregnant with a child that has special needs then so be it , that is something I would have to live with…. I couldn’t kill an unborn child for any reason , I understand that pro choice think the unborn is just a foetus and Notting else but it has a heartbeat so there for its a life !! I have thought long and hard about this debate in the past and I can’t justify abortion no matter what way I look at different peoples senarios!! I keep thinking of my own unborn child inside me and I know it’s alive I know it’s there from the very beginning… and it’s such an amazing feeling to be giving life and for something so little to totally depend on me is amazing , I can’t possibly ever be pro choice !!

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    • If you think life begins at conception, youre very wrong.Look up Molar pregnancy. Tumours can also start at conception.
      You wanted your unborn child, many women dont and how they deal with that is none of your business Joanne.
      You cannot live their lives for them. Tjeir wombs, their choice.

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    • Could you kill a woman for any reason? Because while you’re right, there is a larger issue about abortion, these TDs are specifically blocking guidelines for women to obtain an abortion for maternal health grounds.

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    • Tommy, the Status Quo, i that the unborn child has a right to life. When do you think its life begins and when does it have that right? If you dont agree with it having this right; we need to change the constitution to remove it not going round in circles talking about the rarer instances of when abortion is sought.

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    • The status quo is also that a human has the right to bodily autonomy. When a woman becomes pregnant and doesn’t wish to be those two rights cannot co-exist. By banning abortion we take rights away from the woman, by legalising it we let her decide.

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    • @Stephanie
      A woman has a right to do with her body as she wishes, but she doesn’t have a right over the unborn child’s body. Therefore we have a clash of rights, both of which the Constitution vigorously uphold and protect. If a woman feels suicidal when she’s pregnant, then she needs psychiatric care and support, not an abortion. In the case of ectopic pregnancy the object isn’t to abort. The unborn child is very unfortunately a casualty of the medical procedures needed to save the woman’s life.

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    • Too bad the Irish people and the Irish constitution disagree with you, Maurice, and say that a suicidal woman is entitled to an abortion. If you honestly respected the Bunreacht na hEireann, you’d respect that.

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    • Maurice, the unborn child is INSIDE her body and attached to her body, the placenta is made up of her tissue and the child’s. Why is she not allowed remove something that’s inside her? Either she has the right to bodily integrity or she doesn’t, banning abortion strips a pregnant woman of that right.

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    • “something that’s inside her” ??? Heartless language!

      It’s an unborn child, therefore she can’t have the right to kill it no more than she can have the right to kill any of her born children.

      And what does “bodily integrity” mean? To me it would imply every effort to protect her unborn child rather than dispose of this “something that’s inside her”!
      Disgraceful.

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    • What does bodily integrity mean? You do know it’s an unenumerated right protected by the Bunreacht na hEireann? It’s so strong that it applies to your right to not drink floridated water against your will! Granted, it’s never been found to apply in Ireland in this context (though in Europe, yes), but why is rape wrong if not for a right to bodily autonomy which is violated?

      And surely even if you don’t agree with abortion, you have to recognise there is a distinction between a foetus living off a woman’s body and a baby. A woman’s right to bodily integrity is in direct conflict with a foetus’s right to survive by living off of her. You might prioritise the foetus, but that doesn’t mean the rights aren’t in conflict.

      The lack of constitutional understanding shown by some people on this thread is breathtaking.

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    • You realise you just said exactly what i said that there is a conflict of rights.
      Unfortuanately the constitution only recognises a clash between the right to life of the unborn and the right to life of the mother. When the mothers life is in danger her life takes precedence (because if she dies so does the fetus).

      But actually the constitution doesnt recognise any other clashes. The right to bodily autonomy of the mother, it seems, is not deemed important enough to warrant removing the right to life of the unborn.
      (doing so would require a referendum)

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    • And your knowledge is astounding but you certainly are not pro-life.

      Don’t you realize that your use of the language of rights, to the extent that you feel a pregnant woman’s “rights” are in conflict with her baby’s “rights” has been inculcated into you by radical feminist liberal drivel? This language of rights can be used of course to argue for all types of insane nonsense. Disabuse yourself of these notions and you may regain a more humane approach to the unborn child.

      And yes of course the women’s lives are of the utmost importance – and many people are giving serious thought to the issue of abortion and how to prevent it ever being necessary, having seen the emotional damage it causes afterwards. That there are cases where the unborn child must be aborted to save the woman’s life is unfortunate, but these are very few and far between and are no reason whatsoever to promote abortion.

      You argue in a clever fashion, but I’m not convinced at all that you have the lives of these women at heart like you purport. What is your true motivation?

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    • Your argument is clearly in trouble, Maurice, as you’ve gotten to the point where you can mutter about my intentions! you don’t know me, you have no idea what has shaped my views. I mean, cynically, I could also accuse you of disliking women, as you have made it clear you would prefer to risk suicide. These arguments are beneath us. By not implementing these guidelines, Irish tds fail women’s health.

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  • Yeah great way forward in politics, start murdering the unborn just to please the feminists and those who do not respect the human person, unborn or alive. All in the name of equal rights,where are the rights of the unborn you utterly heartless people who would probably have more feelings for a kitten.Can someone who has murdered an unborn child look at another baby without knowing they killed one, i doubt not. The unborn must be protected from conception and not murdered and thrown into a bin .

    Reply
    • That’s a bit harsh Martin.

      Women should be given every support needed to have the child and give up for adoption if they don’t want it. For 99.99% of women there is no medical need for an abortion.

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    • Martin have you actually read the article? It’s about allowing a woman to have a potentially life-saving abortion. Such as the C case where the woman was at a serious risk of developing cancer again. Would you tell her that a potential embryo’s life was more important to your than hers? This article concerns maternal health, including their mental health and getting abortion legislated on demand has nothing to do with this case.

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  • This mind numbing boring pointless secondary school debate is going on as long as I remember truth be told who gives cares cheap flights Internet no actual issue. Pro lifers are lunatic fridge with out a cause saddos

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  • Nick how would you feel now as a person if you knew maybe your parents contemplated aborting you as a baby. This holocaust of murdering the unborn is depriving a lot of people who could be alive and contributing to society. Why must murder be the only answer when there are a lot of people looking to adopt children. Your entitled to your views but unfortunately the unborn only have their mother to protect them, not murder them in a barbaric operation.

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  • It strikes me as odd that a lawyer would suggest that simply because the constitution *makes provision* for something, there is any obligation for a legislature to draw any legislative framework around it. There simply isn’t, which is why Fiona is writing this here, rather than taking a case to the Supreme Court on the issue. This is a political matter, not a legal one.

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    • She’s not suggesting there’s a specific obligation on the behalf of the legislature to do this (other than, y’know, the constitution.) She’s saying its the right thing to do, and that any Republic worthy of the name allows legal avenues for its citizens to exercise rights granted to it. You’re right that its a political matter – its a political move by a particularly militant subset of society to prevent others exercising their constitutional rights.

      As an aside – what is being legislated for here is pretty minor stuff as far as the politics of abortion are concerned. What is being legislated for is simply the principle that a person should not be forced to risk their life to carry a pregnancy to term. You’ll note it specifically exempts provision for the general HEALTH of the mother. This more or less makes the claim of anti-abortion groups that they are ‘pro-life’ laughable on its face, and lends credence to the data suggesting that YD etc., like anti-abortionists in most other western states are driven more by a religiously motivated desire to regulate the sexual activities of women.

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    • ” the constitution *makes provision* for something, there is any obligation for a legislature to draw any legislative framework around it.”

      That’s simply nonsense. The constitution makes provision for lots of things are there is an obligation to legislate for. See the President, the Courts, the number of TDs etc. The particulars of this constitutional provision have been outlined by the court and the failure to enact upon it has been an act of extreme political cowardice, one which was rightly criticised and the process expedited by the actions of the ECtHR.

      ” which is why Fiona is writing this here, rather than taking a case to the Supreme Court on the issue.”

      Fiona is writing this here because she is giving an opinion. She shouldn’t need to take a case to the Supreme Court. That case was taken 20 years ago and there’s been no action.

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    • Ciaran McHugh. Have you done your research on abortion not being a cure for cancer, because if you ever had a choriocarcinoma or a trophoblastic tumor you would know that anyone who has had these devastating cancers knows that avoiding pregnancy at all costs is vital for their survival. If they do get pregnant the risk of the cancers returning is thousandfold and quite often the chemotherapies do not work the second time round. This leaves the woman with an extremely terrifying situation and how they choose to acheive survival is their own business. It’s all well and good voicing an opinion on your abortion stance but do your research before you commit to making a statement like that.

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    • Actually John, Dermot Ahern used the exact reasoning you’re saying doesn’t exist here (a constitutional obligation to legislate) to justify making blasphemy a criminal offence in the Defamation Act 2009.
      The reason Fiona isn’t taking a case to the Irish Supreme Court is because (and I’m assuming here) she has never been in the discrete position of having a pregnancy that threatened her life and so she wouldn’t have standing to make such an argument.

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  • to see whether you really think abortion in case of a threat to your life should be permissible, just imagine how you’d feel if you discovered you had a fertliized egg implanted and growing in your lower intestine. surprising how quickly people come around to the idea!

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    • Exactly! And thats abortion! A fertilized egg being removed from the womans body. Pregnancy terminated.

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    • @Tommy

      Not in the case of “partial birth abortion” whereby the unborn child’s head is mashed to a pulp while it’s body is still in the birth canal. PBA is legal in some parts of the US. A human life begins at the moment of conception – scientifically proven und undebated, so removing it is in fact killing a human being.

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    • “Partial birth abortions” are a tiny fraction of abortions performed. The majority are done in the first trimester. If you honestly think your arguement is so persuasive, why ignore that fact? Is it because you believe people see first term abortions as more acceptable? Hmm. Why is that?

      A human life begins at the minute of conception? Well, actually, both sperm and egg are alive, so it’s more accurate to say a human life changes form at conception. A pregnancy doesn’t begin until implantation. And as the European Court of Human Rights has noted, there is no scientific or philosophical consensus as to when life begins.

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  • This isn’t a difficult issue to understand. The pro-life campaign and Youth Defence have run a disciplined, effective, targeted campaign including billboards, letter-writing, and constant phonecalls and messages of support to their allies in Parliament, and those sitting on the fence.

    The pro-abortion people have posted a few snarky comments on the journal and politics.ie.

    Gee. Wonder who’s persuading more people.

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    • I guess the pro-choice people are sick of being told what pregnant women MUST do.

      Its a pity they wouldnt run the same campaigns or put as much effort into looking after the 5000 kids in care rather than focusing on the contents of womens wombs.

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    • One reason and one reason only MONEY they have lots and lots of it

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    • Seems you missed the pro choice demo which was held in Dublin last week, over 400 people were there at Lenister house. Pro choice groups are doing more then just making snarky comments, but we don’t have several thousand grand to spend on bill boards.

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    • 400 people, as compared with a few thousand at the Rally for LIfe…?

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    • 400 people on a Wednesday afternoon organised by a facebook page that was a couple of weeks old. As opposed to a rally organised for a year in advance, held on a Saturday in a city with a bigger population with a culture of conservative religious values with buses up to it from all over the country run by a 20 year old organisation with massive funding and a nationwide billboard campaign?

      Yeah, they’re comparable.

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    • well last years rally was also held in Dublin… it would still seem that more people young and old are motivated enough to travel and participate or donate money to fund it etc than are willing to do the opposite.

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    • Eleen 22/07/12 #

      Frank, the couple of thousand ultra-conservatives who were bussed up to the rally last year in Dublin means as little as this years one. Especially when you have people like known neo-nazi Michael Quinn at the rallies ( http://www.sundayworld.com/columnists/index.php?aid=8360 ).

      And John, you want to really know why Youth Defence are having such a great time right now while the pro-choice side are “sitting on the fence”? I’ll tell you why. They infiltrate pro-choice meetings, gain information and stalk or follow people who are speaking out against them. Leading to a lot of people being scared away, and others having to be much more secretive. They buy facebook likes in order to make their organisation seem more popular in Ireland than it actually is. They get their money from other much more dangerous pro-life groups overseas. It’s a lot of money if they can afford such huge campaigns. The police and government are scared of them because they’re a well-organised group of crazy thugs who will pretty much do anything (including using violence) to get their way.

      And the campaigns they go on are disrespectful, shaming and hurtful. Not to mention inaccurate. Pro-choicers generally have a lot more respect for people and don’t want to knock them over the head when it comes to such an intimate, private and delicate issue.

      Pro-choice organisations are voluntarily lead, with very little money. But things are changing pretty swiftly now since most people in this country have had enough. Pro-choice groups went on the streets of Dublin recently to hand out information and leaflets, they handed them out to thousands of people who supported them, and some people even donated money on the spot. Either way, put this to a vote and I’m confident abortion would be legalised and legislated for.

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    • bopter 03/08/12 #

      I think you’re confusing pro-choice with “pro abortion”.

      I doubt there are any people on this thread who are actually pro-abortion.

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  • The murder of a baby is wrong for any reason,a good mother would sacrifice her life for baby alive or unborn. Where is it written blessed are they that lay down there lives for a friend, how much more the unborn.To be honest it sounds kind of cowardly destroying one life to save your own.

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  • I don’t make it my business what other woman do !!! I can’t be pro choice Because I don’t believe in ending a life!!! I’m not going to go tell other people I think it’s ok to have the choice when I wouldn’t do it myself for ANY reason !!!

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    • Well, actually, you are making it your business what other women do. You are saying, basically, that women should not be able to end a life threatening pregnancy. You may not be pro choice, but that’s not particularly pro life towards another human being.

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    • I wouldn’t have a boob job, I think they are terrible things – can I tell another woman she is wrong to have one?
      It’s her body, she can allow what she wants to be shoved in there, by the same token – no one could force her to have it done, and in some cases, there are genuine medical reasons for them (like post mastectomy).

      I’m pro choice, not because I think I ever want to have to go through that experience, from what I have heard it is not pleasant, but because I support a woman’s right to make her own decisions about who lives in her uterus. It’s all very well calling it “pro life” but who’s life are you for? The hypothetical one that has an up to 50% chance of miscarriage naturally, or the living breathing human having decisions forced upon her?

      Reply
    • Once you become pregnant it’s just YOUR body any more, it’s yours and your childs, you have created a new life in your womb, which by the purpose by laws of nature is to protect this new life (allegedly).

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    • Is that why the incidence of natural or spontaneous abortion aka miscarriage is between 30-50%?
      For the first part of the pregnancy nature isn’t exactly trying to help, it’s more treating the foetus like an invading parasite, as harsh as that sounds it is the bodies reaction. And it is for this reason most women keep their pregnancies quiet until this critical stage is passed.

      Incidentally, if we look at the statistics from the UK, 91% of abortions are carried out by week 13, 78% are carried out before week 10. Later term abortions are more frequently associated with foetal non viability.

      I’m not saying it’s a perfect solution – if you don’t want to get pregnant use contraception. But this is not infallible, and there are instances where abortion is warranted (like fatal foetal abnormality, rape, the mothers life being in danger etc), for this reason I support the freedom to choose. It doesn’t mean I’m entirely comfortable with the practice, but it’s not my place to judge another woman for the decisions she makes about her own body versus a hypothetical human. One that she could well have miscarried anyway.. Indeed, that’s what the majority of abortions are, chemically induced miscarriage.. It doesn’t sound nearly as dramatic as murder or killing another human does it?

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    • Aine, can you please explain what is a “law of nature”?

      Would it be like a law where without antibiotics you die of disease? Perhaps a law that means women die in childbirth? Where do the laws of nature fit in vis a vis open heart surgery?

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    • Aine, a woman who has been raped already feels like her body doesn’t belong to her anymore without you legally forcing her to rent it out to the rapist’s progeny for nine months.

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    • Shanti, hypothetical? You can tell yourself that to make yourself feel better but that’s not what that word means

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    • Those who talk as if the foetus is some sort of life-threatening parasite should read these reasons why an embryo or foetus is nothing like a dangerous invading entity.
      http://www.l4l.org/library/notparas.html

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    • The rapist’s progeny? What a horrible way to refer to a child. People should think twice before using these labels as according to Rape Crisis Centre figures, the majority of women who get pregnant following rape give birth to their child. So, you never know who you’ve encountered who’s ” the rapist’s progeny.” Why should a child be punished because of the evil crime of his father?

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    • I’m guessing you have never volunteered in a rape crisis centre, Maria. Those of us who work with survivors are absolutely encouraging of women who chose to keep a pregnancy, but we urge every woman to know decisions about her body are up to her. I hope you realise that your logic, that women have less right than someone else over the woman’s body, is a logic shared by rapists.

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    • So abortion is ok because you may miscarry anyway? And how is contraception so infallible that hundreds of thousands of abortions are performed every year? Really is contraception that useless? It’s blatantly obvious by the numbers of women choosing to abort their babies that abortion is being used as contraception. How small this argument would be if more people, women AND men went to the trouble of using contraception instead of fixing the “mistake” after it occurs. Yes there are instances where it’s neccessary, but how small a number must that be compared to the enormous number of abortions carried out every day. You’re missing my point, you say you are not going to judge a woman regarding decisions about her own body, once you’re pregnant it is not just your own body any longer, you are responsible for another human being and every choice you make affects that human being as well as yourself. Providing easy access to abortion just gives people more excuses to be irresponsible.

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    • Eleen 22/07/12 #

      Look, we either have a society which trusts every individual to make the right decisions about their lives, or we don’t. No one here will ever have the full facts or understand what a person who is pregnant is going through – why do any of us feel like we have the right to dictate over their lives?

      There will no doubt be cases of people having abortions due to careless mistakes, but how can anyone assume that just because abortions happens a lot that this is the main reason for abortions? Pregnancy isn’t a walk through the park and a lot of people have a lot of problems with it, even more still have life situations that would make pregnancy and having a child impossible or dangerous. More still feel completely against the idea of having children and would hate the idea of being pregnant.

      If you have a “tough sh*t – you shouldn’t have had sex” approach to this, or any sort of judgmental approach, then you’re being particularly heartless. No matter what your views on abortion – even if you think it’s murder – you cannot feel you have the right to dictate over someone else’s life, can you? I certainly can’t.

      And for those of you who think it is murder: why don’t you trust your fellow human beings to make the right choice? It’s their lives – it’s their baby – do you think the majority of women to be completely murderous animals who don’t give a damn? I’m sure they’re aware of the situation and they have their own views. In a democracy we respect other people’s views – or at least that’s what we say. The fact of the matter is that there is no scientific way to prove when life starts, or when a fetus is a baby – so it’s up to individuals. If you’re pro-life, by all means – educate people, support women to make informed decisions and help them if they want to keep their babies. But don’t go around forcing your views on other people’s bodies.

      So far, pro-life seems to mean anti-choice, lies and shaming. That’s all I’ve seen from the pro-life side. To every individual who is pro-life, I respect your views completely as long as you don’t try to force other people to live by them.

      Reply
  • Annie 19/07/12 #

    I don’t think killing is along the same lines of wearing pyjamas in public! Ireland should stay abortion free, let them go to uk if they want and whine about human rights after. Youth defence speaks for the unborn there enough mouth pieces to speak for the “poor woman”

    Reply
    • Your use of the term “poor woman” would indicate you don’t have a lot of sympathy for suicidal women, women suffering from a rare form of cancer and 14 year old rape survivors.

      In fairness, at least you admit you prioritise embryos over women. I don’t.

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    • Ireland is not abortion free. Irish abortions simply take place in Britain/the Netherlands, or illegally in Ireland with herbal remedies or medications ordered from abroad.

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    • Abortions are carried out already in Ireland,
      Abortion is intervention which is carried out to end a pregnancy.
      Many ectopic pregnancies are ended here in Irish hospitals each year.
      To say Ireland is abortion free, is wrong.

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    • JoJo 19/07/12 #

      Youth Defence doesn’t give a flying fig what happens after birth though.

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    • According to Youth Defence, these aren’t abortions. I mean, one is removing an embryo from a woman’s body and the other is removing an embryo from a woman’s body. So.. not at all comparable?

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    • Tommy C 19/07/12 #

      Irelans ISN’T abortion free! Thousands of Irish women have abortions.

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    • Nick & Sharrow I think you are both being ever so slightly disingenuous here. I think most people understand the term “abortion” as meaning a decision taken freely or on advisement without their being a real and imediate medical treat to the mother to end a pregnancy. On the other hand the situation that you describe seems to relate to a decision to intervene as there is a real imediate medical threat to a mothers life. While the outcome is in all probability the same, the unborn does not survive, the decision process in arriving at that same outcome is very different which is why a distinction is drawn in most people’s minds.

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    • If you’re saying that most people distinguish between medically necessary abortions and other abortions, I’d absolutely agree. But all the X case guidelines would be implementing is medically necessary abortions. What I think is ridiculous is that Youth Defence and these Fine Gael TDs are okay with certain medically necessary abortions (ectopic pregnancy) and not others (the C case, where a pregnancy could have affected her cancer recovery and chemotherapy).

      I find it reprehensible that these TDs believe women should not be able to freely communicate about health risks with their doctors and there should be no clear criteria on qualifying for an abortion in Ireland.

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  • Yes Nick my Wife would being the mother of 6 children, as i said before some people making pro-abortion comments would probably have more feelings for a pet kitten. Anyone who agrees with the murder of an unborn child is just as guilty as the parent of that child and the doctors of death who perform this barbaric act.

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  • Nick you narrow minded person have you never heard the expression “No greater love have those who lay down their lives for their friends” surely this applies to the unborn baby. A good mother i believe would sacrifice her life for the well being of her unborn. Murdering the unborn achieves nothing but a bad conscience.

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    • Eleen 22/07/12 #

      Not everyone wants to be a good mother – or a mother at all. Others still would have very different ideas about that, since it’s their lives they’d be sacrificing, I’d like to leave it up to them, wouldn’t you?

      I’m glad you and your wife love your children and have a wonderful relationship. You’re very lucky to have found someone who shares your values. But not everyone else does. I certainly value my life much higher than any baby I may be having, and find your sentiment pretty terrifying. Especially since in all parts of the world, maternal deaths are extremely high thanks to lack of access to medical treatment (including abortion).

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    • And I think a good husband would value his wife over a developing person. So I guess we’re both narrow minded.

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  • Annie 19/07/12 #

    Let them go to uk, if u want to argue that Ireland not abortion free it is. It’s some citizens the ones who travel are not, that’s what u mean

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    • Its not abortion free! Its just exported. These women still return home after having abortions. Why do you feel they shouldnt be able to have this procedure here? Abortion is not illegal.
      Do you think that if its not physically occuring in Irish clinics then its not happening?

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  • Well said Fiona! Pity about the shower of idiots who decided to write comments afterwards! And yes I say that as a pro life woman, lots of you are actual idiots!

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